GM Car Czar Maximum Bob Lutz’ recently stated that anyone who thinks that GM will shutter divisions is a “weenie” who doesn’t understand the cost of dealer lawsuits. Yes, well, one day, GM will have to jettison brands. Perceived wisdom dictates that The General should pare itself down to Chevrolet (low end cars), GMC (trucks and SUV’s) and Cadillac (high end cars). As for Saab, Buick Hummer and Saturn, bon voyage! And then there’s Pontiac. Yes, Pontiac. I believe GM’s product starved “performance” division has the greatest potential of any of its current brands. With great products, Pontiac could go from neglected stepchild to superstar son.
The Solstice roadster is a huge step in the right direction for GM’s excitement division, in every way the ill-fated “new” GTO wasn't (except luggage room). Chiefly, the Solstice is gorgeous. The model also has an entry-level and hard core (or at least harder core) performance variant (GXP). As for the rest of the lineup… meh. G6: a rental car from birth that’s nowhere near as good as the Camry/Accord juggernaut. G5: ditto. Grand Prix: 303hp through the front wheels—who wants that? Torrent: as exciting as a cute ute can get (i.e. not at all). Vibe: a Toyota Corolla. GTO: dead and dead ugly.
So, now’s the time to apply a little art and a little science a la big brother Cadillac. First off, GM should decontent the beJesus out of Caddy’s outgoing CTS, give it Solstice-quality sensuous sheet metal and rechristen it the Pontiac Grand Prix. While the new CTS is due any time now, Chrysler’s 300– made with bits and pieces of the last gen Mercedes E-Class– shows you can get new money for old rope. This home-grown Grand Prix would keep both customers and the UAW happy. The Caddy set up’s rear wheel-drive opens-up the possibilities; can you imagine a Grand Prix Coupe with a 505hp Z06 engine? Eat that, Shelby GT500. More importantly, you’d have a family-priced rear-driver that would steal sales from DXC’s ageing Magnum/Charger/300C trifecta.
Meanwhile, bring on the Firebird! With FoMoCo selling massive herds of Mustangs (August being the best ‘Stang month since 1979), Pontiac needs to flip their cross-town rivals the bird. Release a new Pontiac Firebird with half a dozen variations right off the bat with various degrees of engine oomph. Build it off the Corvette chassis—not the Camaro’s. Most importantly, festoon it with flaming chickens. We love that. Point being: make it as visually exciting as the Solstice. Make it a sports car that people talk about, swoon over and ultimately desire.
Speaking of excitement, where are America's WRX’s and Evo’s? Sure, the Dodge Caliber SRT-4 puts out 300hp, but it’s a front-driver, the chassis is junk and it looks constipated. GM committed a horrible, almost unforgivable gaffe with the Saabaru, charging 5K over retail for nothing more than a badge. (That car should have been the new Vibe.) Correct the mistake. Imagine a small, American wagon with world class performance and handling. People would eat it up. The fat-faced Chevrolet WTCC Ultra that GM recently debuted in Paris would make a vicious Pontiac; assuming they raise the asphalt-scraping chin spoiler a yard. Even if that particular small, muscular car is not the solution, something is. Build it, and boy racers will come.
The world also needs an exciting and sexy fuel-sipper. Sure, you can buy Honda’s Fit – an outstanding car – but it’s just so goofy looking. There’s the Mini, but it’s over-boiled and too much of a statement for many. Most importantly, neither car is American. Instead of taking the lame, Lido way out and importing small, dorky Korean subs, let’s design and build one here. DCX is about to start building the Hornet in China, which despite what WalMart wants you to think, is not America. Moreover, the Hornet looks like an angry filing cabinet. Pontiac, this segment is yours for the taking.
Pontiac can of course choose to do none of the above, stay the course and follow Oldsmobile, Plymouth and Dead-Buick-Walking to the gates of automotive hell, with Lincoln/Mercury bringing up the rear. But that needn’t be the case. Performance divisions, no matter how stale the marketing shtick may be, are good things. Take a gander at Mazda, Ford’s defacto fun to drive brand. With the lone exception of the lame duck B4000 pickup, all of Mazda’s product offerings are at least sporty, if not outright sports cars. From the mutant CX-7 to the perfectly executed Miata, every product serves the driver first, last and second. And Mazda’s US sales are up 5% from a year ago. In a model cycle, Pontiac could be in the same boat, especially if they heed the example of what the CTS-V did for Cadillac; making enthusiasts care about a moribund brand. It’s the fast things that count.
Any ideas why Pontiac can’t build a good-looking car other than the solstice? It doesn’t cost more to build pretty cars, does it? I know businesses try to make as much money as possible (or lose as little as possible if you’re GM), so can they really sell the most cars to the most people by making them ugly? Do the majority of people have bad taste, or do people just not flock to sexy cars like the solstice because they assume they cost a fortune? What gives?
The solstice looks good because it’s a small 2 seater. Designing a 4 door Grand-Prix sized car around cues from the Solstice? Yeah good luck with that, it would look weirder than an RX-8.
Build a firebird from the corvette? John… do you understand the muscle car thing? It’s gotta be cheep and go like snot… turning is optional. One of the main reasons (besides looking like a 1995 Grand Prix) the GTO did not sell was because of the initial 37K price tag.
Women love the look of the Torrent – at least my wife does. She took a new job with a fat raise, so for some reason she wants to get rid of her ragged out 2000 Corolla.
I’m suggesting to her to look at the VUE with the Honda 3.5 liter engine, but no, she wants the Torrent, even though it has a Chicom engine in it. I’m hoping to delay it until 2008 model year when GM is supposed to put a decent engine in the Torrent.
She doesn’t like the Vibe – wants to “sit up high”, and the Vibe is too low. (Women and SUV’s, go figure)
Good styling and a strong engine will take you far in the market – actually, it is kind of hard to find both in most vehicles that don’t cost an arm and a leg.
What’s with the badge engineering? Pontiac is a joke. To get consumers to take it seriously, it’s got take itself seriously.
How about Pontiac asssembles a team of world class sports car designers and designs one world class, non-parts bin sports car/sedan?
Meanwhile, improve the Solstice– relentlessly.
Taxman, she needs to take another look at the Vibe. The seat adjusts up and down…sure, you won’t sit as high as in a Suburban, but the perception is there. Also, for some reason the Vibe has a way of growing on you…I started driving mine after we owned it for a little over a year (got “custody” of it after a divorce) and while it could use a little more power, this thing ROCKS! True, it’s no sports car, but it’s a great vehicle if you’re looking for an alternative to a traditional SUV.
Back to the article: It’s a shame that Pontiac, as one of the newest GM brands (1926) would survive while the oldest brand, Oldsmobile (1897), was allowed to die. Nothing against Pontiac – I own one – but it’s history of innovation isn’t quite up to that of Olds. The automatic transmission, OHV V8, front-wheel-drive…Olds was a pioneer in bringing these to the mass market; Pontiac had its innovations, but one could argue they were not as far-reaching. But then again, cars that sell are the answer, and Pontiac seems to do this better than Olds did, at least post-1985.
It would be cool to see Pontiac reborn as “America’s BMW,” but the engineering has a long, lo-o-o-ng way to go.
All great ideas that unfortunately will fall on deaf ears. Ever take a look at the Holden Australia website ? It looks like an alternate universe to the idiocy that brought you the Aztec .
If they could bring Holden over here it would be great. The Commodore looks awesome. The problem is how would Pontiac screw it up? I envision a lot of advertising featuring the modern Holden dropped into the Road Warrior.
That won’t happen though. Pontiac will continue to limp towards the inevitable. There is a Pontiac/Honda dealer near me in which the Pontiac area is deserted while Honda is packed into a small little room with only space to display one car. Despite the terrible surroundings, it is always filled with people.
Can someone answer why Ford and GM won’t import or make their European or Australian designs here? The new Mondeo looks awesome. Are they that protective of their crappy products?
Leave Buick alone for a long time Buick was the number three selling brand in the market. Nothing is wrong with Buick, just the people who mange it who have no vision. I want my 2009 Roadmaster, the size of the DTS with styling based on the Velite concept car, preferably with a 6.0 pushrod V8 instead of that idiotic and superfluous northstar. Then again, by that time the DCX LY platform will be out along with a redesigned 300c.
But if the typical Toyota or Honda potentially more reliable at 20 YEARS OF AGE compared to a 3 year old GM product, why on earth would anyone want to buy ANY GM brand, anyway?
See for yourselves
http://www.autooninfo.info/NAEd200610LineManufDurability.htm
I guess I think too rationally sometimes. After all, people buy Lamborghinis, Ferraris, etc., and their build quality is an oxymoron, and reliability is non-existant.
So, can GM survive by just selling GTO’s and Corvettes?
With the latest news out of Detroit it’s a wonder GM and the other domestics will have the money to re-engineer anything in the future. A huge $2400 price gap in profits per car. That’s 10% on a $24,000 average unit and more on a cheapy. If the asians just take half of that $2400 and use it for developement they will increase the gap they have now in design leadership. It was Dieter Zetche who said he would be happy with 5% profit at chrysler (not 10% as in the price disadvantage).Time has run out for the Detroit boys. What you see and don’t like now from their products is the result of years of starved product develpement. Every time the opponent changes twice to your once on a model he distances himself from you. As Harley Early (the same as in the year old GM ads) the old design chief at GM, when you don’t change often enough (think model year) you forget how to. And I will add when you don’t have the billions your competitors have to change you can’t. Pontiac is just one more GM division that was starved of it’s rightful money it need’t to build competitive products for more than a decade. How do they now start the race with the thing half over? All those billions saved by not re-engineering in the past and lame branding have come home to roost, and pontiac is a Prime example.
Buzzdog –
The Torrent (and other crossovers) sits 7 inches higher off the ground than a Vibe, and given the more upright seating position I would suspect the eye is amost 7″ higher when seated. You’re basically able to look over a Vibe while seated in the Torrent, but can’t the other way around.
Well, the badge engineering could be worse – Pontiac Canada & Mexico have Daewoo variants, the Matiz/G2 and Wave/G3.
As Lutz said (out of context – yeah, right), Pontiac & Buick are damaged brands, and it’s going to be difficult to bring them back to their former glory. Solstice aside, Pontiac is little more than a fleet of rental specials, and Buick isn’t doing much better. GM’s strategy of combining P/B/GMC dealerships? making lemonade of of past due lemons.
Pontiac doesn’t need to sell cars by flaunting their reliability though. Bring the Holdens here, offering a V8 for nearly every car, disperse them properly throughout GM and BOOM the excitement factor is back. You’ll have the muscleheads pick’em up and driving straight to the muffler shop for Flowmasters and the “Urban” crowd headin straight for 26″s or whatever the respectable size is now. Before long, you’ve got American icons, much like the 300c and Charger have become and children are buying extreme tshirts with flaming Chryslers and such. As for now, you’ve got an Accord poser thats inspiring no one and certainly not getting place on any child’s shirt reading “Xtreme G6 Fury!!!!”.
JL:
The Chrysler 300 is NOT a reskinned last gen E-Class, it doesn’t even share the same platform. It just got an important hand-me-down in the form of the drive train.
Save Pontiac? Surely you wrote this just to get a rise out of people. Pontiac at its best is the home of cars are designed to rent and are caricatures of what some design school wash-outs think cars are suppsoed to look like. They are malproportioned blandmobiles with mediocre seats, Novacaine steering and clumsy ergonomics.
I’ve spent a few thousand miles in Gran Prix and G-6 rentals and while they work fine as transportation units they’d never be worth making payments on. Three days last month in a GP were OK but the car wasn’t even equal to the 10 year-old Saab 9000 in my driveway.
The Solstice is the only model that actually looks good, if rather obese. But despite its length and girth it’s still a tight fit for my 6’2″ carcass and the A-pillar is lthe size of 4 x 4 landscape timber.
The model changes you suggest are appealing, but they require imagination and vision–traits GM will never have. When GM starts to kill off divisions Pontiac should be third from the top, right after Buick, with Hummer on top.
Usually the simplest solution is the best. Your article definitely proposes a simple, clear vision of GM brands that would greatly enhance the company. Too bad GM execs are so blinded by the complexity of its corporate relationships and immobilized by its own morbid obesity to make these necessary changes.
I echo the notion that Pontiac needs to produce a world-class sports car. It does not need to be cheap or sell in large quantities. In fact, the more exclusive the better. Such car would provide the gravitas to attract people to the brand to buy their lesser offerings in larger numbers. Right now the only car that Pontiac has that is even remotely charismatic is the Solstice but it is simply not enough (by at least 4 cylinders).
Bring back the Firebird on the Vette platform? I dunno . . . whatever that platform’s performace capabilities, it’s too big and fat. So is (to varying degrees) the current Mustang and forthcoming Challenger. Can’t someone do a truly modern pony car instead of an embarrassingly obese retro-caricature of the genre?
Take a few inches and pounds out here and there and you’d have a Firebird that would be a great performer AND wouldn’t get clobbered if gas prices go back up — and stay up — over $3 a gallon.
Why is it so hard for Detroit to confront reality these days?
About Holden: It looks nice from the first glance – just like Pontiac. But then I browsed through their model lineup and looked at details…
For example, Tigra could succeed where the last MR2 failed, but it has the drivetrain at the wrong end of the car, and that’s just the beginning. I mean, when a sports car lists “Chrome-LOOKING exhaust tip” at the top of its performance features list, that kinda says something.
It seems to me that GM took people’s complaints about perceived quality way too literally. Chrome-looking exhaust tips, leather-looking vinyl, and fast-looking Chevys, that’s what Pontiac is REALLY all about these days..
And it would all be fine if it would work. After all, people buy Corolla S packages, which is nothing but a set of alloys and a body kit, but sells like hot pies anyway. However, we got to a point where Pontiacs look bland, have bad reputation for assembly quality, and are still overpriced. There’s just nothing attractive about them anymore.
Pontiac used to capitalize on luxury performance. That died off. Then it capitalized on inexpensive luxury poseurship. That died, too. Now it has nothing to capitalize on, and therefore, will die. Unless GM has the guts to move G6 and all other brand-diluting cars to another division, and revive Pontiac either as a Grand Tourer, or as a Grand Poseur, or as a Grand Something Else, but it has to be SOMETHING. Oh, wait, GM… Guts… Yeah. Pontiac will die.
For those calling for a new GTO or a new Trans Am or whatever, I can’t help but think of these clueless movie makers who keep recycling the same crap over and over and wonder why their attendance is dwindling.
If the US car makers continue to pour their design energies into “nostalgia cars” then I can’t see how they will survive, at least in their present form. There just aren’t enough gearheads out there with the cash to sustain them.
What is Pontiac? Take away the “Smokey and the Bandit” cultural heritage (which most twentysomething car buyers probably don’t even remember) and it’s just another blah bunch of rental cars. What’s going to happen when those twentysomethings are in their thirties and forties? Will they be lusting after a GTO or Trans Am? Will they even know what one is?
The “Harley Davidson approach” (i.e. sell a technologically inferior product at a premium price because it’s a cultural icon of coolness) won’t work with cars for several reasons. First, the car market is at least an order of magnitude larger than the motorcycle market. Second, most car buyers are looking for a transportation appliance. If it’s cool, great, if not, so what? And third, unlike cars, which have to have utility, a motorcycle is a pure lifestyle accessory and a luxury.
The way I see it, the patient (GM) has gangrene in his limbs. The doctors can either amputate now, take the consequences and save the patient, or they can let the gangrene spread.
I mean, when was the last time you heard somebody say “I can’t wait to see the new Pontiacs!” The Solstice may be a hit, but it’s not enough to “halo” the entire brand.
I think Pontiac should get GM’s pony car, and only Pontiac. It would be their core offering, their lifeblood. And it would make Pontiac important again.
Kill the Chevy Camaro!
Speaking of pony cars, look at the Solstice! Why not drop the base engine, and offer LS2 or Northstar as an option? Let Saturn take over the value side.
Of course, a 400hp Solstice will rape base Corvette in a straight line, but so did the 73′ Trans Am. Didn’t hurt Corvette sales one bit.
A 28-32K little roadster with a 4-second 0-60 is an instant sale for anyone who wants to feel their balls shrink. It’s the people’s AC Cobra. Certainly solves the halo car problem.
Nice article, but none of this is going to happen. GM has never shown itself capable of making the hard decisions, no matter how bad it gets. Hard decisions will probably get made when GM goes into bankruptcy and the creditors and court fail to approve its Chapter 11 Reorganization Plan. Reality will come from outside GM, if it comes at all.
One car, no matter how good it is, will not save Pontiac, much less GM. And GM will NEVER market its way out of its troubles, try as it might. There ain’t that much advertising clout on the planet!
Pontiac, in my mind, has 2 options with the Torrent… either axe it or make it a perfromance SUV. BMW and Porsche (and Mercedes) have shown that there is a market for performance SUVs… whether Pontiac could actually pull this off is another question entirely… Particularly with gas prices in such flux.
I think using the CTS platform for a new pontiac is a great idea… Performance divisions need RWD cars. As pointed out, who wants a 300 hp FWD car?
I think maybe instead of performance, GM is attempting to make Pontiac the ‘convertibles with the smallest trunks’ division… In addition to the tiny top down trunk on the Solstice, the “all New G6” hard top convertible has similar issues… meanwhile Mazda drops it’s first hardtop convertible with no trunk penalty… the way it should be.
RE: Chrysler 300, It’s my understanding that it does use suspension and transmission from the former Mercedes E class… I’m not sure where you draw the line between suspension and platform nor drivetrain and transmission… either way the point is that the 300 effectively uses previous generation Mercedes parts (and very effectively in my opinion).
Pontiac, at least at one time, was the GM division you could count on to churn out exciting cars by the lotful. That’s the essense of what Pontiac needs to be. The marque can comfortably survive as a semi-niche player. Most Pontiac dealerships also sell Buicks and/or GMCs and would likely stand to gaineby an image makeover.
The GTO in many regards is indicitave of where Pontiac should go. It is a monster in everything but the styling department. If Maximum Bob had spent just a little bit more time on some distinctive styling, it would have been a bigger hit. But Jonny, it’s hardly ugly, and it’s got it where it counts.
The first thing they should do is send the Torrent to the same fate as the Montana. Next, scrap further FWD development. Pontiac should be RWD-only. As has been suggested, the Solstice is a natural place to start. The next Grand Prix can carry the flag for the brand if done right and the LS2 is put in it.
A Zeta-based coupe needs to be built. Whether you call it GTO or Firebird, or something else, a performance brand without a performance coupe is paradoxical.
As was suggested, a WRX or Evo type compact would be a natural fit here as well as a economical compact with some pizzaz, something that the Sunfire wasn’t.
The Vibe has some potiential too, if spiffed up.
Lastly, no more fleet sales, please!
One car, no matter how good it is, will not save Pontiac, much less GM.
A sea fills by a drop.
GM needs at least one great car in each of its divisions to start off, and that should set the mark for the rest of the lineup. Having done that, they can gradually bring other cars into compliance.
By the way, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with those excess brands. They’re only excess because they’re trying to sell beyond their niche. If I recall correctly, it’s supposed to be a Car for Everyone, not a Car for Everyone in every brand. Read that last part of the previous sentence again, you’ll see how stupid yet true it is. I can see why Porsche makes the Cayenne – because Porsche is their ONLY brand. GM has the advantage here; I find it laughable that they managed to turn it into a disadvantage. I’m starting to get the impression that a cook would manage GM better.
GM is a multi-headed dragon in a deathmatch with its own self. Who’ll win?
Just say the words and let them flow across your tongue: “Pontiac” …. “Buick” . The one says “trailer park trash” and the other makes you vividly recall the smell of old people and sounds like “puke”.
It’s a mod mod world and those two words are poison. They’ve got to go.
GM needs to go into bankruptcy protection. Re-negotiate labor agreements for ones that work, sell off hard-assets that are not needed (dead manufacturing plants), do away with all the model overlap and messy platform-sharing, Kill Buick, Saturn, Chevrolet (excluding the Corvette), Saab, and Hummer. Keep Cadillac, Pontiac (kill all the line-up accept the Solstice, expand on the out-going CTS platform), GMC trucks (roll-back the inventory put the H2 at the top of the SUV line-up), and Create a Corvette brand (name the current model the “C6†and the Z06 the “C6Râ€). Void all of the dealership agreements; create the first internet-direct no-haggle pricing new car company. Allow the costumer to customize each car to order. That alone would set GM aside from every-other car company.
Old people have to drive, too. And if not for them, we wouldn’t be getting all these mint-condition low-mileage all-original cruiser cars for cheap.
I had a Skylark for a little while (got it from an old man, btw), and found it to be one nice car. Amazing build quality, and quite comfortable for a rock-bottom compact car. If I had to go on a road trip, and I had to pick between that Buick and my father’s Camry, I’d take the Buick.
I think Buick is a great brand that can milk its targeted audience like no other. Think about it, what brand says “This is what you WANT when you get too old or lazy to drive, and you need something to float in instead”. Not Lexus, not Mercedes, not even Cadillac. Buick.
You are making a car case not a business case. The business problem is that the legacy liabilities (e.g. retiree health care, dealer franchise agreements) are a dead weight on the viable businesses.
That problem can be solved in a Chapter 11 proceeding. However, Chapter 11 proceedings cannot create cash flow or provide capital to fund the expansion and renewal of cash flow producing activities. It costs billions to roll out a new vehicle line, even for an existing brand.
Realistically, GM simply cannot afford to rollout enough new vehicles to maintain its existing 8 US brands. The question becomes how much capital can GM raise, how can they do it and what investments will give them the best return on the capital they do raise? And will all that effort and money produce a viable business?
Given that GM is in dire straights and that the world and US automobile businesses give every sign of being dramatically over capitalized, finding a way forward will be very difficult.
My own instinct, and I am not an automobile industry expert, nor do I have any detailed information on GM, is that, after dumping its liabilities in a chapter 11, GM will have to close or sell most of its US plants. This is because they produce products that are too expensive to make competitively or are technologically obsolete (think pushrod engines and drum brakes). Some projects, such as the JV with DC and BMW for second generation hybrid technology, or the JV with Ford for 6 speed automatic transmissions should be continued.
The brands, to the extent that they are still assets, and not millstones around the General’s neck, should be sold or JVed. SAAB might be salable. Buick, which is apparently still a good mark in China could be JVed. At the end of this process, I doubt that the General will still be producing cars in the US under more than 2 brands (probably Chevy and Caddy), but that is a guess.
“RE: Chrysler 300, It’s my understanding that it does use suspension and transmission from the former Mercedes E class… I’m not sure where you draw the line between suspension and platform nor drivetrain and transmission… either way the point is that the 300 effectively uses previous generation Mercedes parts (and very effectively in my opinion).”
To clarify this, this only components shared are the steering column and the seat frames. The rear suspension’s design is based off of the E-Class but no parts are shared or are shareable. The transmission is based off a Mercedes design but has a number of differences. These are the only commonalities. To call the 300C a reskinned last-generation E-Class is completely incorrect and it surprises me that “The Truth about Cars” would keep perpetuating the falsehood. It kinda reduces my faith in the rest of your reporting/commentary.
Beauty in the eye of the beholder, Jonny. My tastes are primarily with European cars (example: I have a 3 series sedan as my “everyday” car), but I have a ’06 GTO in the driveway and it is one of the most fun cars I have ever owned. The “blandness” of the car is one of its most endearing features, as the local polizei don’t give it a second glance (as long as I take my foot off the gas.) In my humble opinion, it is way above the normal Pontiac in quality. When I have the choice of taking the BMW or the GTO, I take the GTO.
If Pontiac had called it anything else but “GTO” they would have sold every copy Holden could make; however using that name caused all the backwards retro-lookers to throw their hands up in alarm, saying it looked nothing like a ’64 Tempest. Pontiac compounded the problem by hardly marketing it. Case in point: I was talking to a real estate agent yesterday. He saw my GTO and went to check it out. He loved it, but his one big question: “How come I never saw these before?” For shame Pontiac!
My take is let Pontiac be the RWD performance division. Get the new Holden Commodore SS-V model over here as a 300C fighter., continue the Solstice, get rid of the badge-engineered SUVs, and deliver a new Zeta based V8 coupe. I’d use Holden’s designs, and the General’s capacity here to build them (Holden does not have enough capacity to build for the US market) Buick keeps the larger FWD vehicles, while GMC has the SUVs/trucks. Everyone has their niche.
A couple things.
Holden is not the solution as their cars are too fat and importing Austrailian products into the US will never work properly. Plus, the GTO is ugly.
RWD only is not the solution. Drive a Mini or a Mazda3 (especially the Speed3) or a Honda Fit and you will see that very exciting front-drivers exist. Plus, my WRX/EVO fighter idea would not be a rear-driver.
Remember how dead, dead, dead Cadillac was? We’re talking dead. GM turned them around, not completely, but they are well on their way. The same can (and I say should) happene with Pontiac.
It’s the product, stupid.
There is room for more Brands under GM:
Chevy – The everymans cars and trucks
Saturn – Euro flavor at affordable prices
Buick – Luxury that is not in your face and cheaper than Cadi
Cadillac – Proceed as they are now
Pontiac – The go fast division.
For Pontiac in particular they need to do the following:
1. Improve the Solstice so it has a power folding top and almost as much storage as a Miata.
2. Make a Solstice coupe in regular and GXP form.
3. Bring over the Holden Commodore with revised sheetmetal as the next Grand Prix.
4. Do a four door version of the Camaro concept as the Impala.
5. Go off the GTCC Ultra concept and make an AWD monster that can compete with an Evo or STI.
Pontiac’s motto should be real fast for real cheap.
These are all fine dreams for brand improvement (which would never get heeded by mind-stuck GM management), and now the cash for the “remodel” just went away. GM & Nissan stopped talking:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15129365/from/RS.3/
Well, as far as FWD/RWD is concerned… Should Pontiac be building hot hatches? I think that’s better left for Saturn. And any remotely powerful 3000lb+ car better not send all of its power through the front wheels.
If Pontiac builds a “hatch” it should be hot.
If Pontiac builds a Tank it should be hot.
You get the idea.
Problem is, G6, G5, Vibe, GTO, Torrent, GXPTXZXGT — all not hot.
Only the Solstice is hot — but, as one of only five or six really, truly great looking cars currently being built in the world, it has enough hotness to carry the brand.
Pontiac just has to act. Soon. Now.
gforce – Can you tell us your source?
I don’t want to get into a link war, but according to my breif research… “About 20 percent of the parts in the 300 are of Mercedes origin, including the suspension and the 300C’s five-speed automatic transmission.” (from http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2004/08/26/213743.html)
It does not sound like “Chrysler’s 300– made with bits and pieces of the last gen Mercedes E-Class– shows you can get new money for old rope. ” should be considered a false statement.
Bimmerhead and Gforce — the relevant point is that the 300/Charger/Magum is crafted from LAST GENERATION E-Series parts; not the current E-Series.
And it is a huge success on basically every level.
GM, give Pontiac the CTS chassis. Save thy self.
I think the main issue facing Pontiac is that they are not positioned to execute their positioning. What I mean is that while Pontiac aspires to be about excitement – think working man’s BMW – GM really doesn’t have the platforms available for Pontiac to execute that vision.
The GM midsized sedan platform is front drive only, and it is spec’d so broadly that Pontiac cannot engineer the G6 to be a better driver’s car than the Accord or Mazda6. As Jonny and others point out, there are RWD platforms available within GM, in Australia and Cadillac, but GM cannot figure out how to manufacture these inexpensively in volume.
There have been a lot of interesting ideas on the board for injecting excitement into Pontiac, but they will be difficult to execute, so Pontiac will be able to put its eggs into only a couple of baskets. The answer does not lie in an expensive engineering effort that results in only 20K in annual volume – Pontiac needs bigger numbers.
The G6 has to be at the center of this story, as midsize sedans are the category in which Pontiac can sell volumes, and FWD is the only possibility here. As Jonny says, FWD can still be fun, and there are engineering solutions to reduce torque steer. If Pontiac can sell a 240 hp sedan that’s fun to drive for $20K, I think they will do well.
Crossovers are another good niche to go after, and there is a good opportunity here for something inexpensive and fun to drive. Following Jonny’s idea of a de-contented CTS, why not an inexpensive SRX? The 2009 Pontiac lineup could look like this:
· Solstice (no need to reengineer, but Pontiac should bring out new versions each year)
· G6 small/midsize sedan (on the new platform, still FWD)
· G8 large/midsize sedan on RWD CTS/Impala platform
· Torrent 2, essentially the ’05 SRX re-engineered to be inexpensive to manufacture
· Vibe2, again a twin to the Matrix, but with its own unique high performance drivetrain and suspension settings.
No minivan, no SUV, no subcompacts. Pontiac might also want to define what exactly excitement means and make it intrinsic across the model line. It could take several forms — an engine line (e.g. “Hemiâ€), suspension tuning, specific wheel designs, grippy seats, etc., as long as it is somehow performance related. Maybe “GTO†is an option package across all the lines (like AMG or Redline), but it has to be a decade-long commitment that defines the brand.
And it can’t be cladding.
Hey… .a decontented SRX.
I like it, I like it!
Especially now that the SRX no longer sports Saab’s goofy waffle vents.
Er, they are fine for Saab, but have no bidness in a Caddy.
As far as the Vibe goes — it is a Toyota Corrola. i.e as exciting as paint drying.
Kill it, stop partnering with Toyota, and start competing against Mazda, Subaru and Mitsubishi.
The Holden is not fat; it’s not even remotely close to being fat. And besides it’s supposed to be a full sized car, I think it’s actually too small. The new Camaro BTW is only as big as a SAAB 9-3. People like me who buy full sized V8s are not kept awake at night by gas prices, we know what we are getting into when we purchase them, secondly, these cars will have V6s for about 70% of the production line, and third anyone who believes that 17/25 constitutes bad fuel economy is either an eco freak or incredibly cheap and should be ignored.
Jonny,
I hear you. But I think the dealers would give Pontiac a hard time if they had to give up the Vibe – it is their best vehicle and a consistent seller. Besides, as boring as the Corolla is currently, did you see the Auris that Toyota showed in Paris? I assume that is the next Matrix – the interior at least is fantastic.
Long term, the Vibe should be replaced with an in-house design, but I don’t think GM can execute on it in a 2-3 year timeframe, given its dwindling resources.
I think you make a good point that Subie, Mazda and ‘Bishi have stolen Pontiac’s street cred. Well not so much stolen as assumed by default.
2006300c
I think that 17/25 is bad fuel economy for a commuter car. I am not an eco freak. I may be cheap, but that doesn’t mean I should be ignored.
I have never driven a car that didn’t get at least 30MPG, including the I4 Accord I now use as my daily driver.
“…anyone who believes that 17/25 constitutes bad fuel economy is either an eco freak or incredibly cheap and should be ignored.”
That attitude sums up why Detroit just got caught with its pants down.
Pontiac would be well advised to offer RWD on all their models (except for a compact hothatch). That means that they’ll have to completely overhaul their lineup (save for the Solstice, which just needs continual refinement), eliminating their current badge-engineered clones. This would greatly distinguish them from Chevrolet, and maybe give them the leg up over Mazda! While their at it, leave the pedestrian V6’s for Chevy, and design some inline or boxer sixes, with options to upgrade to V8 on larger models.
Actually, forget about the FWD hothatch, and bring back the mid-engined Fiero! yeah!
The V6s in most cars of my cars size deliver about 18-19 mpg in the city; I personally will not lose 100 + HP for 1 or 2 more MPG. BUT as I said before, there are smaller engines in these kinds of cars for people who desire the space and nothing more. BTW, these cars are luxury and sport sedans, not commuter cars. Comparing them to commuter cars is absurd.
I thought the G6 coupe was very desirable.
Jonny, we’d better put you in charge of the new Grand Prix, because if anyone can take the CTS and royally f*ck it up it is the fine folks at Pontiac. But I shouldn’t be so negative, because they pounded one out of the park on the Solstice, appearance-wise anyway.
2006300c
It looks like I owe you an apology. I use my Accord mostly for commuting during the week and toting the kids around and running errands on the weekend.
Of course, if you are running a service that chauffeurs executives at high speed around racetracks and drag strips, then you are quite correct that there is no comparison at all between our two four-door sedans that seat five.
By the way, the Avalon has a V6 with 268 hp that gets 22/31 MPG. The 300c with 340hp gets 17/25 MPG. So the tradeoff is 5-6MPG and 72hp.
It’s obviously worth it for you and I respect your right to get the car you want and to enjoy it. So why do you need to call others names (e.g. “ecofreak” or cheap and “should be ignored”) if they feel otherwise?
what’s wrong with musclecars? i hear a lot of talk like ‘they shouldn’t be making cars based on cars that were successful 30 years ago. well why not? everybody else does. i mean a ‘roadster’ type car has been around since the 30s and i don’t hear anyone saying ‘let’s stop making roadsters’. same goes true for any popular car type. if it makes people happy and sells keep doing it. really the mistake was when GM stopped making muscle cars. I’m pretty sure if they never stopped making them, nobody would say they should stop now. and believe me, kids “get it”. they may not remember what mustangs looked like in the 70s, but when they see a new one they like what they see. yeah a new firebird! that’s a great idea. but I’m just a sucker for t-tops.
2006300c:
The Holden, ie the GTO is fat. 3725lbs. two-door.
A Mustang GT tin-top with a manual weighs 3483lbs.
Can we call spades fat spades?
Jonny:
I was referring to the commodore sedan but your point about the GTO is taken and I concede. However what would the weight of the mustang be if it had an IRS? Ford claims the solid axle is a way to save weight, that’s true but I believe that’s pure BS cover for unnecessary and harmful penny pinching.
SherbornSean I was not calling you an eco freak but I will continue using those terms because there are many people like that out there and I intensely despise them.
2006300c: Ford claims a lot of things.
However, the Corvette is a great benchmark. If fiberglass is good enough for GM’s performance leader, why not send some down river?
But again, the biggest problem with the GTO is its dopey styling. 3725 is less than most German tank-like two doors, and the LS2 6.0L V8 is awesome. While I think gas mileage is important — especially for consumers who want it — I am with you in regards to it being about the very last thing I (personally) consider when buying a car.
To wit, my WRX gets awful mileage for such a small-engined, light-ish car. I compound that by driving like an asshole and thereby rarely get over 20mpg. But, I pay for it…
Anyhow, if the Pontiac-Commodore variant is half as fantastic looking as the Solsitce, the division will have another winner on its hands.
To be fair though, part of the 300C’s fuel economy tradeoff involves being RWD, something the Avalon and Accord don’t offer (in fact, anything the Japanese do that is RWD, and offers similar size and performance also has similar fuel economy).
I also think it’s a bit questionable to highlight the Solstice as the car Pontiac needs to emulate to become healthy again (especially in the same sentence as trashing the GTO). The Solstice may look like a Victoria’s Secret model on four wheels, but under that sexy skin lies a half-baked sports car (Fiero redux?). The GTO may have been bland (attractive, but bland), but from all I’ve read, it’s a legitimately fantastic car. If Holden’s engineers got together with whoever designed the Solstice, that’s a recipe for Pontiac salvation (but shoot the beancounters).
Ryan,
FWD has little to do with fuel economy. The difference in modern cars is less than 100 pounds.
You can’t buy Solistices, as the dealers are out of them. But they are up to their ears in GTOs.
Pontiac should emulate the Solsitce.
Jonny,
Be careful what you wish for. The Solstice is definitely attractive. But I don’t think the answer to Pontiac’s problems is a niche car selling 20K units. There wouldn’t be any Vibes or G6’s on dealer lots either if they only got 20K per annum. In fact, there might not be Pontiac dealers anymore either.
Pontiac needs volume models that generate the excitement that the Solstice currently generates. There is a limit to how many overweight Miatas with lousy driver involvement that the market can tolerate.
RE: Pontiac Vibe
“This 4-dr wagon is basically a restyled Toyota Matrix, sharing a Toyota-sourced design and 4-cyl power train. ”
“Toyota plans a redesigned Matrix for 2008, which means Vibe will be new too.”
http://auto.consumerguide.com/auto/new/reviews/full/index.cfm/id/39124/
Toyota Matrix:
“this crossover wagon shares a basic Toyota-sourced design and power train with the Pontiac Vibe,”
http://auto.consumerguide.com/auto/new/reviews/full/index.cfm/id/38814/
SherbornSean:
If you read my piece, I did not mention a single convertible.
What I am saying is, the Solstice is good for Pontiac — the GTO has been bad for Pontiac.
More cars like the Solstice in terms of effect; less like the GTO.
I got an idea.
If you’re going to V-8 the Grand Prix and make it a desirable sedan, why not build it off of the Impala platform (not badge engineering it) and make it the sort-of evil twin/cousin of the Impala with a big V-6 and a 5.7 or 6.1 V-8? Make it look like the Holden that was on the cover of Motortrend a month ago. Cross-drilled rotors, colored calipers to match the paint, 18 inch wheels (chrome only available with black paint), dual chrome-tipped exhaust with a sweet note, build it based on demand. It would be a good start.
I also like the idea of making the Torrent a performance SUV with the same idea that Porsche had with the Cayenne. Not to compete with it, because if you’re considering a Cayenne, you would laugh at a Pontiac, doesn’t matter what it is. Maybe offer it with rear wheel or all-wheel drive and a small V-8? How about a tuned version of the 4.6 the Cadillacs carry?
Mike:
Cause the Impala platform is not only a front-driver, but the Grand Prix is already shares a platform with the Impala.
Thirdy, that chasis sucks.
Jonny,
I was just trying to clarify the statement that Pontiac needs more like the Solstice. Did you mean:
a) Pontiac needs another poor quality, overweight, uninvolving clone of a Mazda,
or
b) a car that is attractive and generates excitement?
Ragtop or not, I think you mean (b)!
Jonny,
I think (hope) Mike meant the rumored new Impala platform which is RWD. I think Priddy had some pics a month ago….
B, of course, but the Solstice is pretty great to drive. Good chasis, good dynamics but MUCH more importnatly to GM (not so much to the enthusiast) people love them.
I stop for coffee most mornings at the same shop and there is a lady with a gorgeous, jet-black Solstice. We talk.
Her: I love it.
Me: yeah but the truck?
Her: who cares?
Me: Yeah but where do you put your coffee?
Her: Who cares?
Me: yeah but it is 400 pounds heavier than a Miata
Her: Miatas are for [gay men].
Etc.
“I don’t want to get into a link war, but according to my breif research… “About 20 percent of the parts in the 300 are of Mercedes origin, including the suspension and the 300C’s five-speed automatic transmission.†(from http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2004/08/26/213743.html)
It does not sound like “Chrysler’s 300– made with bits and pieces of the last gen Mercedes E-Class– shows you can get new money for old rope. †should be considered a false statement. ”
Bimmerhead – I should have added that the electrical architecture was Mercedes as well. I have heard the 20% value bandied about before too, but I’m not sure of the actual accuracy of it. I heard everything from few actual parts being shared, right up to the 20% amount. In any case, Mr. Lieberman’s original text said a “re-skinned” E-Class which the 300 is clearly not.
Anyway….. As Jonny said, the fact is that the idea works and GM would be well advised to use it. I don’t think they will though, at least not in the near future. Whether there even is a far future or not, we’ll see.
The Solstice looks amazing, but is that good enough? If it’s only decent to drive, how long can the hype last? Unless Pontiac can make it better than the Miata (because settling for good enough, or almost as good is GM’s eternal problem), in a couple years, the Solstice will probably just be known as the mid-life crisis car for guys who can’t afford a Corvette.
Hummer sales up 17 % from a year ago……not a time to consider killing the brand.refine it along with the solistice design.
catch hold of autos with momentum, refine the hell outta them.This is a tried & true method courtesy Toyota & Honda.
Hummer is a distinct brand if you thinkabout it.You either love or hate,not many people land in between.Despite gas cost,they continue to sell,albiet not in quantities G.M. is used to as far as suv”s are concerned.
I hope the design a Pick-up along the same style,perhaps a resemblence to the concept of the Terradine.
Ryan: The GXP version of the Solstice is about to drop.
260hp.
Costs little more than a Miata.
haven’t driven it myself yet, but I hear it is faster than the heavier Boxster, at half the price.
EPA 17/25 – nothing to brag about.
EPA 27/37 – what the Mercedes E320 Bluetec diesel is rated at, quite impressive. So when is the 300 CRD/Bluetec coming Stateside?
I can see the new DCX ads, “Dat ding gotta Blue-tec?”
Jonny,
Before you get your hopes too high, read Edmund’s review of the Sky Red Line. Poorly integrated turbo, slow steering, and indifferent attention to details.
Summary quote: “Rather than the scalpel it could have been, the Sky Red Line remains the blunt, somewhat distant car the base Sky is, just with an extra dose of power.”
Does that sound like a Boxster-beater to you?
I know you aren’t the source of it, but I’m really sick of the whole “Miata = chick car or gay man’s car” thing. It’s an insult to hetero guys to say we are too insucure in our sexuality to buy a true sports car.
starlightmica
You’re comparing a gasoline V8 to a Diesel V6? Yeah….. okay.
The Bluetec is a great diesel v6, the best in fact, but it will never replace the 300c and srt8 at the top of the desirability and coolness totem pole
Don’t worry, 2006300c, in 10 years the 300c will be 20% Bluetec powered.
At the risk of sounding like a cheap ecofreak who shouldn’t be heard, I question the coolness and desirability of the quote unquote Hemi.
Apparently the Mexican assembly plant is about 20% cooler in terms of production. How cool is that?
“The Bluetec is a great diesel v6, the best in fact, but it will never replace the 300c and srt8 at the top of the desirability and coolness totem pole…” – 2006300C
Yeah. And the Audi racing diesel just oozes uncool, too.
The HEMI V8 was essentially the only choice you had when buying a DCX truck or SUV if you wanted something that resembled forward movement and less truck sales and production equals less HEMI production. As I have said before, the bluetec diesel is one of the great engine developments of our time and should replace the awful base 2.7L in the LX platforms. You cheap eco freaks can have any little engine you want just as long as I can still have the option to purchase something non plebian and fun.
Also, all race engines are cool, that is why they reside in the chassis of race cars
Am I the only guy that things calling a diesel engine “Bluetec” is just plain wrong?
I thought they were trying to dispel the image of diesels as smokers.
I’m not arguing that Honda or fwds aren’t fun. Heck I bought an Si yesterday. And had I’d been able to afford a new car, I’d be in a Fit, probably sleeping in Refresh mode as we speak. But! Pontiac will never out-Honda Honda. Fine, if you want to have a hot hatch, then do it, but Pontiac is not going to convince any Honda (Nissan, Mazda, Mini) enthusiasts, including myself, to ever leave their respective camp. I seriously doubt they could pull anything off in the hyper-import camp either (Evo, STI). They simply don’t have the racing history that Mitsu and Suby have. The only game Pontiac must play is the American one. Beat the Charger! Beat everything Dodge has to offer and they’ve won.
The easiest way to do this is with Holden.
Fiero GXP – Vectra – offered only as a turbo hatch, must beat the Caliber srt. – stupid-fast cheap muscle
G6- Commodore – stupid-fast everyman muscle.
G?- Crewman SS – stupid-fast utilitarian muscle (against Magnum)
Grand Prix/Bonneville – Caprice – stupid-fast luxurious muscle
Keep Solstice exactly as it is, with both manifestations.
Keep the GTO against the mustang and challenger (Let Chevy have Camaro to itself) and thus Pontiac is the GM version of everything thats cool about Dodge: unadulterated American over-the-topness but without the need to sell Stratuses or trucks.
And, who cares if Holdens are fat and ugly. So is the rest of America.
oh and build them here.
Lieberman, it sounds like the lady with the gorgeous, jet-black Solstice either isn’t very bright, or she’s hopelessly behind the times.
What woman worth knowing today would utter the “Miatas are for gay men” line, in an age where millions of straight men line up every day for designer coffee, plastic surgery, manicures and having their hair colored? Remember, not that long ago ALL of these things were considered to be exclusively for women and gay men. Welcome to the age of the metro-sexual.
Hey…going to work yesterday I saw a Latino colleague in an Impala and an African-American colleague in a CTS. Does your lady friend think that they’re driving the correct car for their race?
Pontiac has been on a death spiral since the days of Lynn Meyers….under her “leadership”; the Pontiac nameplate has become an acronym for Peel Off Nameplate This Is A Chevrolet.
You’re comparing a gasoline V8 to a Diesel V6? Yeah….. okay.
Europe has been doing so for years in their big luxury cars, it’s time for us Uhmerricans to get used to the idea. E320 CDI (previous gen) has a 0-60 in just under 7 seconds, not as fast as a Hemi but no slouch either.
The big problem is cost – a Hemi reportedly cost DCX no more to make than the 3.5 V6, so the 300C’s price differential was pure profit. (No wonder why they’re doing so badly all of a sudden.) A turbodiesel, on the other hand, costs almost as much as putting a hybrid in.
Jumping back into this…
2006300c…
Why do you “intensly despise” people you term eco-freaks? I know that many “environmentalists” can be pretty judgemental, sanctimonious and overbearing, but they are hardly representative of everyone who cares about the health of our planet. Just because you favor overweight cars (presumably a 300C) does not mean people who prefer more intelligently designed vehicles are freaks.
One can be a pistonhead and still care about the environment, even though you may not. There is no reason fairly powerful cars (say up to about 300 hp) cannot acheive 20/30+ mpg, assuming proper design and engineering. And with modern engine technologies there are no reasons (aside from ego-enhancement) that anyone “needs” a V8 unless they routinely tow or carry loads measured in tons. Except, of course, that fat, overweight cars need big engines so the car can attain even moderate levels of performance.
# 2006300c:
October 4th, 2006 at 11:50 pm
The HEMI V8 was essentially the only choice you had when buying a DCX truck or SUV if you wanted something that resembled forward movement…
I have 2003 Durango (1st gen) with the 4.7 V8. While not a race engine by any means it has no problem at all motivating our 4000 lb. truck. I can pass and merge with traffic without any problems. On a recent trip with 6 passengers and luggage we got 21-22 on the interstate.
I have no doubt that in street applications, a BlueTec or any advanced diesel would make for a much faster vehicle than a Chrysler Hemi. I don’t know about the intangible “coolness” of a diesl vs a Hemi, even if diesels have proven to win races (how cool is that – new technology on the track?) but I do know how to calculate “faster.”
Heck, a 2007 Corolla is faster than a 2007 Chrysler 300C SRT-8.
Here’s an illustrative scenario, put them on a head-to-head cross country trip, New York to San Francisco. MapQuest shows 27 driving directions for this trip. You’ll also have to stop another 10 times or so to pay tolls. Every time they stop (and let’s say it’s each of the 37 driving directions) and accelerate up to speed, the Hemi will gain several seconds over the Corolla. If we say the awesome acceleration of the Hemi allows it to gain 6 seconds on the Corolla at each tollbooth or interchange they use, the Hemi will be 37*8 seconds ahead of the Corolla, or about a 3.7 minute lead.
Of course, every time they stop for gas, the Corolla will gain several minutes on the Hemi. The Corolla has a 540 mile range and will have to stop 6 times. The Hemi has a 380 mile range and will have to stop 8 times. It usually takes me five minutes to get ouf of SuperAmerica. The Corolla wins by about 6 minutes.
But, wait! There’s more!
If the 300 driver starts with no gas in the tank and a $50/hour job, he must work about 7 hours and 15 minutes to earn the gas for the trip in the 300. The Corolla pilot worked just 4 hours and was able to depart New York with a 3 hour and 15 minute lead.
Consider also, the 300 has an MSRP of $39K or so. Allowing for givebacks, let’s say you can get it off the dealer lot for $32K. The Corolla lists for $16K or so. The 300 owner slaved away an extra 320 hours to purchase the 300 before he could leave New York.
The way I figure it, that Corolla has at least a 300 hour lead. An inexpensive, high mpg diesel might do even better.
Jonny, I guess you skipped the October issue of MT. It has a Holden Commodore/Grand Prix on the cover boasting a 6 liter, 362 hp, rear drive drivetrain. It looks pretty nice, kinda like a mix of Lexus and Mazda styling. Much better than anything else GM has on the menu. Apparently Holden is chomping at the bit to help Pontiac go all rear-drive. They’ve sent the cars (which were designed from the start for left hand drive and US safety regs) over to the US for Wagoner and Lutz to drive.
my gf always says ‘miatas are for gay men’ everytime i say ‘hmmm maybe i’ll get a used miata next time i get a car’. will that stop me? no, i’m pretty secure, but yeah the idea still persists.
noley: There is no substitute for a V8, in order to get the same level of V8 performance from any lesser engine you either must have a very focused car (Elise, Evo) or you build the six or four to a point where it will be no more, and even less efficient and smooth than a V8. Oh, and my car does 0-60 in 5.3 sec, 0-100 in 13.4 and the quarter in 13.9 , indeed, that is very moderate.
Hey 2006300c — or should I call you “20% of a 1997E570â€?
No one disputes your right to buy a “Hemi†even if they are yesterday’s fashion and don’t feature combustion chambers which are truly hemispherical. No one disputes your right to Chrysler “quality†and repair bills. Or Chrysler resale value. Or your right to $50 fillups every week. Or to get passed by “ecofreaks†driving light, nimble cars every time there is a curve in the road. You have every right to feel proud that your car is in many ways better than the Mercury Marquis with which it competes. You can even get chrome dubs and pretend you’re Snoop Dog, if you’d like.
dhathewa:
Loved your analysis, but I did notice one flaw. You assumed that the Chrysler would travel 3,000 miles without needing to go to the shop for a repair, warranty or recall work.
Not likely.
Oh, my car has not stepped wheels on the dealer service bay in more than two years. Chrysler quality is at the industry standard BTW. I can afford $40 fill ups every two weeks and routine maintenance because I’m not broke. The handling is bad however with its non existent body roll and neutral behavior. My car has no competition sadly, because there is nothing in its price range that is comparable to its size and power output.
“dhathewa: Something is not right with you., you are not a serious, stable person interested in rational discussion.” – 2006300C
You’re not the first to tell me this.
In this case, though, I’ve just taken an unusually broad look at performance.
I’m an enthusiast but I don’t need a V8, Hemi, supercharger, low-profile tires, RWD, or whatever to drive enthusiastically; I can do that with anything that’s got 4 wheels. There’s a lot of fun to be had in wringing the most out of whatever you’re driving. Especially if it’s basically a piece of crap, like the ancient Korea-mobile I recently unloaded.
I’m glad there are some very rich people in this world, otherwise there would be no market for Ferraris, etc., for me to dream about. Will I ever drive one? Probably not but dreaming’s good and it’s cheaper. I do hope to be driving a Miata, someday, or maybe find an old TR-4 or something that I can play with.
But I’m not going to blow in $30-37K on a 300. Why waste a lot of money (and the time it took to earn it) on half measures? On a car that will be considered just about as exotic and exciting as a Ford Taurus SHO 20 years down the road? I’ll just continue to have a great time driving an I-4 5-speed stick car full of leaf bags down to the compost dump (there’s a tricky downhill left-hand turn there).
2006300C:
You note: There is no substitute for a V8, in order to get the same level of V8 performance from any lesser engine you either must have a very focused car (Elise, Evo) or you build the six or four to a point where it will be no more, and even less efficient and smooth than a V8. Oh, and my car does 0-60 in 5.3 sec, 0-100 in 13.4 and the quarter in 13.9 , indeed, that is very moderate.
Nice try, but not true. I have a Saab 9000 Aero with a mere 2.3 liter 4 cylinder with 225 hp/ 258 lbs torque that has similar performance numbers (and will top out at about 150) without modifications. This is a four door hatchback family sedan that weighs 3100-3200 pounds–hardly a highly focused or uncivilized car. I know a number of people with the same car who are putting out 300+ hp and still getting 30 mpg highway at 75 to 80 mph. Newer models with a turbo 6 cyl are faster. Other turbocharged or supercharged cars are coming on the market because boosting an engine gives you more with less.
I agree that V8s are wonderfully smooth and the power delivery is great, but they are not the only way to move a car fast and they are definitely not necessary for performance. The old adage that there is no substitute for cubic inches is no longer completely valid.
All engines can be made to deliver great performance which I have been saying all along but they will not be as efficient as a non turbo or supercharged one and may be equal to a V8 in terms of efficiency. All I’ve been saying is that a V8 is my preference and I want to always have the option to buy one
Is the torque steer on those turbo Saabs really as bad as everyone says it is or are they exaggerating? Whenever someone brings up torque steer the word Saab is always used as a reference point.
dhathewa:
I like the point about how any car can be driven enthusiastically.
Except obviously you’ve never driven a new Jetta, but nice sentiment nonetheless.
However, to deny how utterly fantastic the Charger SRT-8 is as a vehicle, how exciting it is just to stand next to, is dishonest.
Pontiac brand will be sold to the Chinese. The Chinese will make it cheaper and worse. It will be advertised in prime time and glossy brochures, bought at Wal Mart and Canadian Tire stores across the US and Canada by ex-GM workers.
“However, to deny how utterly fantastic the Charger SRT-8 is as a vehicle, how exciting it is just to stand next to, is dishonest.” – Johnny Lieberman
It’s an ugly sedan with a big engine. I happen to think the current Dodge/Chrysler motif of the low roof, claustrophobic windows, blunt prow and high shoulders is not terribly attractive. When I was little, I used to draw pictures of The Car Of The Future. The 300 is not what I was drawing.
Cheer up, I’m not a big fan of the latest Camry, either. In 20 years the Camry will be considered just about as exotic and exciting as a Ford Taurus SHO. Of course, the Camry will still be driveable…
How about a Quattroporte? There’s an attractive car. I love those fluid lines (Buick used to use those lines a bit and those were attractive, too) and in a touring car, shouldn’t the tourists have good-sized windows for admiring the countryside as they rocket through it?
How about an Elise? I see one every few days. Now, that’s a car that’s exciting just to stand next to, which a friend and I did the first couple days we noticed it in the lot. Or see and hear it scream by on the freeway entrance ramp.
dhathewa –
An interesting and entertaining way of looking at speed, now we have to help dolo54 get past his GF’s apprehension about used Miatas which would fit quite well into your analysis.
As much of a marvel the Elise is, I wouldn’t want to even hit a pothole or a steep driveway, as damage to the suspension just might exceed Lotus’ tolerances’. That means that you have to replace the aluminum spaceframe involving disassembling and reassembling the wreck, to which your insurance company will just go ahead and total your car. Then again, I just like to keep my cars for at least a decade.
Of course it is ugly — that’s half the point.
It looks like a locomotive, a rabid one.
Go find an SRT-8 in black with the chrome delete.
Sinister.
And exciting — hear that, Pontiac?
“Of course it is ugly — that’s half the point.”
Interesting. Would you say that being ugly was the point of the 1968 Charger? How about the 1971, with its striking wedge shape?
The current Charger could have been an iconic car on par with the Mustang, but I would argue that Chrysler completely missed the pitch. They came out with a cartoon-like caricature of a ’60s sports-something (coupe/sedan?) that will not withstand the test of time.
There is no substitute for good design. Bling won’t do it. Hemis won’t do it. Black with chrome delete won’t do it.
Tom Gale understood this. The designer of the current Charger didn’t.
2006300C…
Is the torque steer on those turbo Saabs really as bad as everyone says it is or are they exaggerating? Whenever someone brings up torque steer the word Saab is always used as a reference point.
That was true in some of the earlier ones, like the older 900 models when turbos first came along, and for a while after that. It’s not much of an issue in the 9000 and the current 9-5 and 9-3 models. The Viggen versions of the more recent 900 and original 9-3s had torque steer issues, though. With the stock engine like mine there is some torque steer but it’s not noticeable except under full throttle acceleration, and it’s not a control issue. All you get is the sense that the front wheels are really pulling, but assuming the alignment (especially toe) is correct it’s no biggie and no real action is required to control it. My erstwhile VW GTI was much worse. When you pump up the power on the Saab it does become more of an issue, but guys with 300+ hp mostly seem to have gone to limited slip differentials. It is possible to get 400hp out of the stock block–a bit much for FWD in my estimation.
And yes, you should have the choice to buy a V8 if you want one.
“Of course it is ugly — that’s half the point.” – Jonny Lieberman
You seriously expect me to purchase a car because it’s ugly?
“… get dolo54 past his GF’s apprehension about used Miatas [being gay].” – Starlightmica
Dolo54! Listen up! If you pass me driving a Miata, I’m not going to be thinking, “there’s goes a gay guy,” I’m going to be thinking, “Damn! I wish I was driving that Miata!”
Unless it’s pink. In that case, I’m just going to presume you work for Mary Kay or maybe borrowed the car from a daughter or wife and I’ll be thinking, “Damn! I wish I was driving a Miata like that but in a different color!”
Oh yes.
It’s “good” ugly.
Like a Lamboghini or a tank.
Better example — the Tumbler from the most recent Batmobile movie, which was actually a Lamboghini cross-bred with a tank.
dehathewa:
Jonny is trying his “Ridgeline Jedi Mind Trick” on you, dont fall for it! The charger is as uninteresting as a bowl of soggy cereal. Its ugly, poorly executed, and basically a vehicle that they came up with when the DCX brass asked, “Does anyone else has any design we can cram a hemi into…(beSIDES another Jeep)?”
As far as the miata debate goes, the solution is easy; drive with your wife/girlfriend in the passenger seat.
I cannot believe Im posting on a “Lets save Pontiac thread”. Pontiac leads in one category: No single brand can trump it in the NASCAR-wannabe category. In all honesty there is simply no more embarrassing brand of car than Pontiac. Here is the start of a long list of winning design triumphs:
How about the later lemans hatchback (ouch!)
One word: SUNBIRD
early eighties pheonix (citation fighter!)
Enter the TRON years with the 6000! (your looking REAL good there too!)
KNIGHTRIDER’s KIT (GAME OVER)
(notice I didnt even HAVE to use the word Aztek here?)
While my BMW M3 was in the shop for 6 weeks because of an accident, I had a Grand Am rental during that time.
In Summary. it was the worst 6 weeks of my life. That car was 0 fun. For a V6, it has 0 pep. And on turns the front tires would screech and understeer so badly, that I scared the hell out of my gf at the time.
The day I got my M3 back was the best day of my life.
in my very uninformed opinion pontiac will die. even if it stoped being a brand and became a “spec level” somthing more akin to HSV FPV VXR or TRD.
undoubably its current stratergy is not working so i wont discuss it
if pontiac took VXR’s example of fitting any good car with a much improved engine some leather and bigger wheels or tougher lines then it would make money. this approch does not even require a varied line up, HSV and FPV both work primarily on their parent companies main car and each are able to do so profitably. to supplement this they import one or two good models.
the problems with this is that finding the base car to work on is hard, if as i am led to belive GM have only been making FWD cars to compete with the japanese they will need to either buy an old european system, 300c, or import somthing new, G8. the problems with this is old systems are just that, old, and importing is obstructed by tarriffs and unions making the cars too expensive.
also as shown by the poor performance of the holden coupe (i have never known if it were the monaro or the gto or some specific export spec) americans expect pontiac to retain an image, this is very expnsive for established cars such as any that would be imported.
the only solution that see is that a whole new platform is developed, or GM capitalise on the zeta and build amercan cars on it. this however would require money quality engineering and a bit of passion, all things they are apparently short of.
the only saviour for gm at all will be getting rid of unions, import tarrifs, on cars imported by the american companies, and all badges except GMC chev and a perormance badge
as a side point i would like to take take this oppertunity to be cynical (and nationalistic) and say that all the ill feeling toward the australian cars is because americans finally realised australians make better muscle, and when they got their hands on it the unions had made it too expensive. i also want to query why pontiac didnt just leave the looks of the coupe alone, the hsv in all black is sex.