The average American car buyer is completely unaware of Ford’s financial troubles. They don’t know Alan Mulally from Bertie Ahern. They don’t know that Ford’s taken out The Mother of All Bank Loans, mortgaging everything up to and including the company logo. They don’t know the automaker’s got three years to avoid annihilation. But the day Toyota overtakes Ford as America’s number two carmaker, the U.S. consumer will get a multi-media wake-up call. The psychological damage will be profound. Not that Ford sees it that way.
“Our focus is on getting our business back on a solid footing to return to profitability,” George Pipas pronounced. “Any talk about sales ranking is little more than a distraction." That’s a strange comment coming from a man holding the title “Chief Sales Statistician, Ford Motor Company.” But Pipas has a point. Why worry about Toyota’s rise to the top when you’re fighting to stay alive?
Seven years ago, Dearborn’s Darlings were worth just over $80b. This year, Ford’s market cap stands at $13b. Although the company has topped-up its cash reserves with $26b of newly leveraged liquidity, it's set to toss $17b of that into the fire over the next three years. Will it be enough? Ford Flack Oscar Suris claims the more fully funded Blue Oval is perfectly positioned to handle the day-to-day challenges of being number three. Suris insists that neither a recession nor “any other event” (wind, sleet and snow?) could force the freshly flush Ford to flounder.
John Novak of Morningstar Inc., ain’t buying it. Like any sensible auto industry analyst, Novak insists that Ford’s survival depends entirely on its ability to generate cash through improved sales and profit ratios. Without a new cost-cutting UAW contract and substantial regrowth in its market share, Billy Ford's mob will be hard pressed to service the family firm's debt, never mind pay off the principal.
To keep the bankers at bay and the coffers at capacity, Ford is staking its short term future on the new Edge. The Blue Oval’s blitzing the American public with $100m in edgy Edge advertising. And why not? The sharp-looking crossover is FoMoCo's only shot at much-needed, long-overdue new product buzz. To add timbre to that tone, Dearborn is cranking up its marketing machine to new heights.
This latest advertising onslaught owes its genesis (genius?) to The Way Fordward Version 1.0. Flying in the face of all the badge-engineered inbreeding polluting the gene pool of Ford's extended family of products, the company has decided it’s all about "Brand DNA." They're going to (re)define their soon-to-be-decided number of divisions, create products that embody these new, more coherent brand values, and then sell the vehicles to people who, um, want them. The Edge campaign is designed to build on– OK, "initiate" this not-so-novel concept.
The Glass House Gang are pitching the cross border crossover in every conceivable medium, to every imaginable market, in every possible language (even “Spanglish”). Rolling Stone gets a centerfold, NBC’s Las Vegas gets product [out-of-]placement, urban skyscrapers get hallucinatory projections and Edmunds gets richer. Despite the ubiquity, Ford has some human DNA in its sights: single men and women in their mid-thirties with an active lifestyle (codenamed "Phil" and “Mia”).
Celebrities ranging from Korean soap star Ahn Jae Wook to Beyonce Knowles will pocket large checks to push their fan base over– I mean into an Edge. Ballers n’ playas tuning into to the Steve Harvey show will hear Grammy nominee Kelis’ (pronounced “Kuh-Leese”) musical campaign contribution: “Push it to the Edge.” Jeri Ward, Ford Edge Marketing Manager, sees the hip hop artist as “the perfect spokesperson for the urban Edge campaign… she has a bold style that breaks the rules.” Apparently, the lady whose milkshake brought all the boys to the yard “prefers bold designs.” So sending them to a Ford dealer should be a piece of cake.
Whether or not Phil, Mia and their hip-hop lovin' friends elevate the not-so-bling Ford Edge to stuntin' 'Sclade status, FoMoCo's crossover is sailing straight into a consumer headwind. The U.S. housing market is in its first full year decline since the Great Depression. After years of cash-on-the-hood and no interest loans for anyone with a pulse, the demand for new vehicle financing is drying up– even as Ford’s middle class mid-market buyer finds that expendable income is becoming as scarce as storage space on Ford dealers’ lots. Industry mavens CSM Worldwide predict that Billy's Boyz will bear the brunt of a nine-year, 16.2m unit low in auto sales.
In short, the Edge has got to sell while the selling’s good. The New York Times predicts that Toyota will scoop America's number two sales slot next February. On that fateful day, American car buyers will know something’s very wrong over at Ford. Tipping point or no, selling a Ford is about to get a LOT harder.
Toyota passing Ford is a symptom of what ails ford but I am not convinced that it will be a tipping point for consumers or by itself be a cause of even further sales loss
The ranking is just a number, and the focus on marketshare is part of what has driven the big 2.5 into their current trouble. OTOH, you have the Asian companies that have stayed the course for a few decades without a primary focus on marketshare (profit-per-car is king!), and marketshare falls into place naturally. You can’t look at 1970s market share number and compare them apples-to-apples with the modern auto market, with its new entrants, expanded lines, invented segments, etc.
To me, it seems the big 2.5 always depend on THAT ONE VEHICLE to turn their fortunes around.
Instead of a world class Corolla/Civic competitor, we get the Cobalt. Just how many customers have bought other GM products because of the Solstice?
The 300 saved DSX’s bacon…for a while. What about the rest of the line?
While the Mazda6-based Ford products have given hope to Ford’s followers, and the Mustang sells well, where is the Mazda3/Volvo S40 Ford Focus variant?
Maybe it’s just me reading all these Deathwatch articles, but I perceive the domestic nameplates as “Losers”, the imports nameplates as “Winners”.
Look at the mix of cars in traffic these days. Evidently I am not alone in my thinking.
The Cobalts actually a pretty good car. I think it’s actually better than the ‘bland as pancake batter, tinny as a tin can” Corolla and nicer looking than the ‘toffee-esque’ Civic.
Solstice is a great vehicle… but the body cladding issues that Pontiac was given will take YEARS to overcome.
Mazda 3 is a sales success, S40/V50 is a mediocrity, and the Euro Focus is the one model that Ford should have brought stateside instead of cheaping their way into the Hyundai/Kia region of the compact car market.
Terry, the traffic mix WHERE ? In a company town like Detroit, evidence of the Asian ascent was literally invisible until it was too late.
Toyota passing Ford is a major milestone but I think that is all there is to it. Customers don’t care – they care about the product.
Ford must concentrate on making profitable products and not throwing Blue oval appliances at the rental market in order to prop up their sales figures. If they kill Mercury, put an end to the badge engineering, deal with the UAW and cut their product lineup to something that makes sense then they will be even smaller but at least they might have a chance at profitability.
Euro Focus is the one model that Ford should have brought stateside instead of cheaping their way into the Hyundai/Kia region of the compact car market.
Mullaly’s reorg included a global czar to presumably prevent this from happening again.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06356/748288-185.stm
Terry, the traffic mix WHERE ? In a company town like Detroit, evidence of the Asian ascent was literally invisible until it was too late.
Everywhere! Except Detroit of course.
I agree with what Terry is saying, it always seems to come down to one vehicle that is going to save the day. One saviour may have been enough in the past, but it’s a risky strategy now, as virtually all of the “all things to all people” cars (eg econoboxes, midsize sedans) are in low margin segments.
I’m sure many others have noticed a certain phenomenon: you can’t make a vehicle cool/trendy/hip/popular with just marketing, no matter how good it is. Every single popular (groundbreaking?) vehicle over the last decade had fundamental features, appearance or distinguishing factors that contributed to its success – and that means press buzz and internet chatter ahead of release creating a strong following.
People innately know the difference between what is cool and what we’re being told is cool (OK *most* people know the difference). Product placement is a tricky strategy but I believe in most cases it fails, because people know the difference between using a vehicle because it’s desired or because it was given to you by the marketing dept.
Ford seems to think this approach will succeed with the Edge, to which I say good luck, but don’t hold your breath. I think the Edge might meet sales expectations (which, let’s be honest, Ford is trying to set low so they can then wow everyone by saying “beating all expectations!” or spare themselves the embarrassment of justifying another missed target, regardless it won’t be enough to save the company.
Marketing: Ford’s whole Bold Moves campaign just makes me laugh and cringe at the same time. A company with few competitive products moving on to pure “image advertising” instead of product-focused spots? That’s usually the arena for market leaders (eg BMW) or people selling commodities (eg Beef). I don’t think I need to remind you which one Ford better resembles.
Meanwhile, you have the local dealers’ share of the ads, which constantly remind us of the rebates and discounts. Consumers are becoming more clever over time and with better information. There’s an old marketing case study that claims that you can’t sell product in Japan using coupons, since most consumers initially feel that coupons mean there’s something wrong with the product. Sure, that’s an extreme example, but not THAT extreme. You have to create products that sell themselves and don’t have to be shoved in your face.
The Freestar is a certified flop, yet now we have The Edge going after essentially the same market with an even less inspired body design. Ford is running up the balance on it’s MasterCard in a desperate attempt to sell a vehicle which relatively few people are going to buy … unless they pick up lightly used ones from the Hertz Used Car lot next year.
Ford is addicted to the Hail Mary Pass school of management. Such addictions occassionally make for good theather, but rarely make for good business. The only real surprise is that FoMoCo has gotten this far at all.
I wonder if the Ford family members will eventually have to compete for real jobs in the marketplace instead of inheriting them?
OTOH, you have the Asian companies that have stayed the course for a few decades without a primary focus on marketshare (profit-per-car is king!), and marketshare falls into place naturally.
If you don’t think Toyota is obsessed with market share and sales, you haven’t been reading the papers.
Toyota wants a 14-15% share of the global market one way or another and they will use all of their resources (including sales incentives) to get it. They will also happily put more and more of their vehicles into commercial and daily rental fleets to gain sales and share as well.
Look at your rental fleets. I rent about a dozen cars a year. Five years ago, it was difficult to get an import choice, now having a Toyota, Nissan or Mazda option is commonplace.
Ford still sells a significant number of vehicles into daily rental but not as much as in the past, meanwhile, Toyota’s starting to pick up the slack.
This will affect resale and residual values and those aspects are as central to Toyota’s sales success as their quality reputation.
CSJohnson
I see what Toyota’s been doing lately (and think it’s out of character for them). I wonder if it’s coincidence that the voices of dissent on Toyota’s reliability and quality are steadily becoming louder at the same time.
The Freestar is a certified flop, yet now we have The Edge going after essentially the same market with an even less inspired body design.
Ford’s done such a bad name with their “F” product naming I believe they’ve gotten you mixed up – Freestyle (Xover) vs. Freestar (just-discontinued descendant of the Windstar minivan).
Ash78
I think Toyota is starting to come down with a good case of “GM-itis”. They now believe it is their manifest destiny to be the largest car company in the world and they believe that they are always right and their customers will always be there for them.
I think Toyota will find, like every other business that wants to be the biggest, that every extra percentage point of share and every extra incremental sale will become more costly.
I think Toyota has sold its soul to be where it wants to be (whereas Honda has not). Time will tell.
Ford Motor Company has a long history of success and then crisis. The transition from the Model T to the Model A was one such event in its history, as was the 49 Ford, then transition from the bomb Edsel to the success of the Mustang in the 1960s the Taurus in the 80’s and the Explorer in the 90’s. Ford always seems to depend on the success of one new product to make it.
Its inevitable, Toy and Honda build a decent product (not perfect as some of these Asian zealots woulds have you believe) but as good as any, until they get an appropriate slice of the US market share they will continue to rise. This is a basic marketing law. Even if Toy made the “best” vehicle, they could never attain significant market share dominance because of the number of competitors today.
The unions almost buried the Bi g 3, how? Ridiculous wages to blue collars, bred apathy in the engineering ranks and combine that with bean counters dictating the product lines thanks to greedy management and well, getting out of that grave will be nearly impossible regardless of the products offered today.
No business man would want to take on such a challenge.
Anyone that does, and makes it succeed will be a legend.
Those of you who think that Toyota's rep for build quality– and thus market share– is about to take a big hit sometime in the near future are dreaming. Just as it took Ford over thirty years to alieanate their brand's devotees, Toyota would have to screw up for YEARS before U.S. consumers would abandon ship. Meanwhile, I think Mr. Neundorf has an important point. When Ford and then GM fall behind Toyota's market share, they will lose some of their mystique. The Big Two Point Five will still claim that they make products that are as good as or better than Toyota's, but when they're less popular, the argument will lose a great deal of its force. Imagine if the F150 wasn't America's best selling pickup. Would it be harder to sell? I think so. In cars as in football, being number one gives you a tactical advantage– even before the game begins.
It’s all about design of product and perceived quality of product that drives consumer interest. Ford is 0 for 2. I hope Mulally is successful, but he’s stepping up to the plate with 2 strikes against him.
As for GM, stick a fork in ’em. They ought to be broken apart into 2 companies – cars and trucks. That way, they can decide if they really want to be in the car market and make products that we want rather than the Grand Prix/Monte Carlo/Malibu pieces of crap. VW, Honda and Nissan show it’s quite possible to build desirable less pricey cars that people really like and want. No more excuses, and no groveling for a taxpayer bailout!!! It’s bad enough I’ve got to look at their ugly pieces of crap on the road. I don’t want to subsidize their bloated bottoms. Neither Ford nor GM have proven to be good stewards of enormous financial resources.
I’ve yet to personally see a Ford Edge, but that picture of it sure looks like a Jeep Compass with a different grill. Anyone who has personally seen both; are the two vehicles the same size and shape?
I had to go to a Jeep dealer to actually see a Compass. I don’t know how long they’ve had that truckload of them they’ve got, but I’ve yet to see one on the street.
Those of you who think that Toyota’s rep for build quality– and thus market share– is about to take a big hit sometime in the near future are dreaming. Just as it took Ford over thirty years to alieanate their brand’s devotees, Toyota would have to screw up for YEARS before U.S. consumers would abandon ship.
Robert,
I disagree, all domestic brands have been shedding customers for decades to imported brands but the problem has only become acute in the last five or six years. Secondly, its not like Toyota has 25% of the market like Ford once had so there isn’t a built in cushion for them. I don’t know the answer but if Toyota is building a production and distribution system for an increased percentage of the market (which by all indications, they are) and they stall or decline, then they have a problem. In the short term, I would agree that there will likely be sales increases for Toyota however, if buyers begin to see a decline in quality (which I doubt) or a decline in resale/residual value (which you can already see in some cases at auctions) then Toyota loses one of its two main pillars of its retail success. Will customers continue to pay a premium for Toyota quality if that premium is lost come trade-in time?
I think that is a question worth asking.
I’ve yet to personally see a Ford Edge, but that picture of it sure looks like a Jeep Compass with a different grill. Anyone who has personally seen both; are the two vehicles the same size and shape?
rtz,
The Edge is considerably larger than a Compass and I don’t think they look alike all that much.
The Edge is quite a nice vehicle from the looks of it (I have not driven one) and there has been a good level of customer interest in it according to some of the Ford Dealers I know.
I like the fact that it trades increased 2nd row room for a 3rd row so that it works well for a family of four with larger kids.
Roberet Farago: “In cars as in football, being number one gives you a tactical advantage– even before the game begins.”
Hasnt seemed to help Ford or GM as of late. Then too, as Avis once advertised…”When youre #2, you try harder”
It appears Toyota(and others) have simply tried harder. From product design and engineering, to marketing and sales, to improving existing product, Toyota has done what it takes to sell its cars but more importantly, to keep its customers content and loyal. To the point where buying another Toyota is an automatic reflex.
While I agree that it all starts with the right product at the right time, the driving dynamics and service experience go a long way to keep people coming back for more. Unfortunately, there too many of the domestics lose out.
Imagine if the F150 wasn’t America’s best selling pickup. Would it be harder to sell? I think so. In cars as in football, being number one gives you a tactical advantage– even before the game begins.
Sales leadership is a red herring in marketing. Customer research has continuously indicated that driving the #1 whatever by sales in the market means very little to a customer.
If there is any correlation to a customer purchase decision that is tied to sales leadership it is that consumers often make the “safe” purchase choice as it relates to how peers perceive the choice. Thus, if you buy a product that many others have purchased (or considered) then you have made a “safe” choice.
In many ways, the need to say “we’re number one” is a wank for internal corporate consumption.
Looking at Ford trucks in particular, Ford has depended much more on the “Built Ford Tough” positioning than sales leadership over the years to promote their brand. That position has both perceived and actual brand equity in the minds of consumers.
I would also argue that overall, Ford still makes the best trucks on the market today. Others may beat Ford in one area or another but if there is one thing Ford continues to get right, it is their trucks.
Over the weekend the news broke that Japanese nameplates outsold the domestic 2.5 for the first time in California. When it comes to automobiles California has pretty much a 50 (60? 70?) year unbroken record of being at the head of the rest of the country, and the rest of the country following. Maybe that is no longer true, but somebody in Detroit better start asking all those Californians what the hell is going on.
I hope the Edge sells, but those new adds with the flying Edge look a whole lot like the flying GM’ers of a couple of weeks ago. Are they going to run into each other? Yeah, and middle America loves hip hop, that ad strategy is going to work there. Eh, feh.
Many of of you are of the belief that the market share percentage numbers are not as important as some TTAC contributors wager. That my be true in the eyes of the more informed public, our humble readers who do not depend on market trends to make decisions. However, when giants fall from pedestals on high, the rest of the public become instantly aware. How much harder is it to sell a Michael Jackson album now?
Matthew,
For most of the buying public, the domestic giants have already fallen. Ford’s business is often the most-asked question in car dealerships right now by customers to sales staff.
Share is inherently a more important factor of corporate health than sales as volumes fluctuate depending on the economy. It is also the hardest thing to protect, especially as more and more competitors enter the marketplace.
Now when Ford becomes permanent #3 or GM becomes a rock-solid #2 is still a matter of conjecture.
People will come and buy a Ford or a GM when those companies offer the right mix of products at the right price. With all the doom and gloom thrown around TTAC about domestic sales, they still do manage to sell a heck of a lot of cars and trucks… some are even profitable.
And California, get over yourself.
How much harder is it to sell a Michael Jackson album now?
More fun: what’s the worst Michael Jackson song to sell the Edge with? I don’t have the skills, but maybe someone here needs to start some YouTube mashups, might get TTAC some needed publicity.
Detroit has always seemed to favor representational rather than attribute marketing. As a result, their advertising seeks to indicate the type of person expected to be a customer for product X rather than showing the attributes of product X in the hope of attracting a variety of customers. That strategy may be risky for Ford having few good new products to offer. An Edge being pitched as hip hop transportation will doubtless foreclose interest in that vehicle by quite a few other significant “demographics”.
Mr. Johnston,
Point taken, but without corporate health sales are harder to generate as the consumer begins to ask questions. While the big 2.5 still do push a lot of metal (much of it fleet related) those numbers are slipping away. It seems that the “wrong” mix of “wrong” products is what has lead the domestics having some of the shattered corporate egos of late.
charley,
That is a brilliant point. It had never occured to me, but once you mentioned it, it seems so obvious. Ford needs some new marketing.
I’m the perfect demographic for the Edge. Late 20s, married, hoping for kids soon, and more than enough money to spend over 30k on a new car. I never listen to hip-hop.
Cowbell:
Are you hip hop aversive? I wonder if selling a vehicle on its bling appeal (e.g. Chrysler Aspen) alienates one demographic even as it appeals to another.
Anecdotally, in these parts, when the Escalade started to roll on double dubs, it ceased to be the Italian community’s SUV of choice.
Hip hop is certainly a huge hit outside of the black community, informing the sense of style for the entire American and international cultural scene. But aforementioned Caddy aside, does black culture sell whitebread cars?
More to the point, can you stunt and floss in an Edge?
I’m not hip-hop averse, I just don’t like a corperate generated image stuffed down my throat.
I agree with Charley that Ford needs to focus on the car and not who they think should be driving the car. By creating specific associations (young and hip) you may have a group of people (the tragically un-hip) that don’t want to be seen as posers.
Constantly relying on that “great new vehicle” or “we have great new product just around the corner” is not limited only to Ford. This kind of thinking seems common among many American companies, and among all the American automakers. It’s a deeply entrenched, almost socially ingrained culture and way of thinking. Of course, there are American companies that employ radically different corporate cultures, like Intel for example, but the Not-So-Big 3 are certainly not in this category.
Those of you who believe that Toyota will suffer a dramatic decline in quality, sales, residuals, etc are merely wishfully thinking. You are also grasping at straws.
There is nothing, I repeat, nothing official from Toyota which states they are specifically focused on becoming #1 in terms of overall global sales. As an interesting sidenote, Toyota has been #1 in many different measures for years now. Annual profits, share price, market cap, the list goes on and on. Officially, Toyota has consistently said, and continues to say, that they are NOT focused on overtaking GM. Toyota’s focus lies on more important issues. Toyota will overtake GM not because they are specifically focused on it, but because demand for Toyota vehicles worldwide continues to increase. Many Toyota models have waiting lists, and some are almost impossible to get at the dealer.
Many of you are unfamiliar with Toyota’s corporate culture and how remarkably stable it has remained over the last 40 years. At the moment, Toyota’s #1 concern is improving it’s quality, wherever they possibly can. Cost cutting is also another worry, specifically with regards to hybrid technology. Toyota’s management and senior executives are gravely concerned about Toyota’s quality. A member of the Toyoda family was appointed as a senior executive in a new team specifically made to improve Toyota quality across the board.
As for fleet sales, even if Toyota wanted to, many of their models can only be put into fleets because of limited numbers. Camry inventory continues to sit below 20 days, which is mind boggling for such a high volume vehicle. Camry fleet sales are very low right now due to consumer demand, which is also the case with a lot of other Toyota models. Meanwhile, the Impala recently was named 2007 Fleet Car of the Year. It has won this “coveted” award 2 years in a row now.
The Cobalts actually a pretty good car. I think it’s actually better than the ‘bland as pancake batter, tinny as a tin can’’ Corolla and nicer looking than the ‘toffee-esque’ Civic.
You have got to be kidding! I know 3 people who own Cobalts and every one of them regret buying them. Parts falling off them and frequent visits to the shop for repairs. This would only seem to reinforce the idea that GM has not a clue how to build a quality small car. The day a Cobalt even approaches a Corolla or Civic for reliability, economy and resale value is a long long way off.
Way back in 1981, the rumor among companies such as Moody and Poor’s, who rate stock, was that Ford was going to cease buildling cars and trucks (the only SUV they had then was the Bronco) in North America. That might have happened; but then, the Taurus came along and saved the auto plants in North America. Ford’s best product, in terms of those which would appeal to TTAC readers are made in Australia and Europe. So I don’t think the scenario that was rumored in 1981, is that far from taking place in the near future. Mr. Mullaly is bringing over an associate from Boeing, whose claim to fame was he knew how to lay people off. Could this be the beginning of the end?
Too much emphasis is put on #1. Which is typically American we have to be #1. If Ford is #4 and profitable then so be it, better for them.
That being said, Ford and GM are less car companies more corporations concerned more about profit than producing quality automobiles.
Someone came along and build a better mouse trap.
Tis astounding that a car company that got it start (in the auto industry) over 70 years ago reverse-engineering Ford and GM (as well as British) vehicles is now on the verge of becoming numer one in the world.
If you track the history of Toyota, you see a company that astutely capitalized on spaces in the US and world marketplace; first for compact cars, then for quality, then for segments all but abandoned by the Big 3.
Today with Toyota poised to become #1 sometime in 2007, one wonders how this could happen. Arrogance on the part of the big 3 – perhaps. Complacency? Almost certainly. The failure of Big 3 decision makers to esteem brand loyalty – especially with first-time car buyers? Definitely. Misreading current and future trends the market; with overdependence on high profit trucks and SUVs? – without question.
Yet with the cost of a new vehicle rising to the levels they are at now, and with the short time people actually own vehicles before flipping them, can you blame the average consumer for shopping quality, resale value, reliability, dependability, etc. over most anything else? (I personally prefer the styiling of American designed cars)
It is becoming increasingly difficult for the 2.5 to get a bead on moving targets offered by T and H. Why for example, is T on its third version of the popular RAV4 when the others still don’t have anything seemingly competitive (the Edge included probably). Where are the hybrids promised by GM and Ford that come close to rivalling T’s 3rd generation vehicles?
I personally think this shakeup is normal in the larger picture and will ultimately prove to be a blessing for the 2.5, assuming of course that they do survive long enough to right the ship. Compete or die – that is the only rule of the game. And to compete, Ford and GM and DCX needs consistent product across all segments. They need to more astutely read the marketplace and maybe even start reverse-engineeering some T cars. Hmmmm – wouldn’t that be ironic?
This is interesting…..
http://www.fordboldmoves.com/Episode.aspx?episode=27
I suppose bragging rights are important when it comes to moving “the number one brand” but haven’t the Camry and Accord been battling it out as the number one best selling sedan in the US for years? When I’m looking for a car, I don’t really care that Ford is #2 and Toyota is #3 and Honda is #5. I do care that my parents always owned GM (and had endless problems with Buick cars and Buick dealers) and therefore I wouldn’t even look at a GM car. I do care that I often drive GM and Ford when I rent cars – and that I’m usually disappointed by the shoddy quality – even straight out of the factory. I do care that a Honda Civic lasted me for 13 years, and is still in the driveway. So… who cares about the rankings? You buy the car that fits your needs and wants? don’t you?
Want the satisfaction of buying “domestic? you buy domestic. Want driving fun at any cost? you buy European. Want moderate fun but great reliability? you buy Japanese.
What does any of this have to do with sales rankings?
Everyone loves a winner. It’s the truth. Deal with it.
# oboylepr:
December 26th, 2006 at 4:42 pm
You have got to be kidding! I know 3 people who own Cobalts and every one of them regret buying them. Parts falling off them and frequent visits to the shop for repairs.
–
Could you elaborate about “parts falling off”? I have driven many vehicles over the years, import and domestic, good as well as bad, and the only time a “part fell off” was my wifes 1988 Hyundai Excell – the window crank came off in my hand.
Oh there was the 1975 baby blue Ford Pinto (used). The rear bumper was so rusted that one night on a country road I hit a bump, heard a crash and looked in my rear view mirror to see my bumper bouncing on the road behind me. Fortunately I was the only one on the road that night. But since it was used and I knew it had rust issues I don’t count that. Who has bought ANY new GM product (in this century) and had something “fall off”?
Everyone loves a winner. It’s the truth. Deal with it.
Save the Big 2.5, buy a TWAT before years end!
BTW, has anyone else noticed that
http://thetruthabouttrucks.com/
goes to a Ford F150 URL?
I could give a (sensored) about the sales ranking of a car company. Mc Donalds sells more burgers than anyone else but they (sensored).
My driving experience started with a Ford Cortina, and over the years Ford was always a brand that felt like home for me, even today as I drive a Mazda, the engine is a Ford product.
I went to see the new 007 movie the other day, it was the first time I saw the new Ford Mondeo in motion, I would be the first to get one if it was sold here in the US, same with the new European Focus, not the face lifted US model.
I just wonder why it is so difficult for Ford to make such vehicles in the US, and how about the rear wheel drive cars they sell in Australia. ?
Are the people who read this sight as close minded as some of the posters here?
I mean – I always see American cars with parts flying off as they go down the road, and they never last past 50,000 miles. I think there is some interpretations of the Revelations that says the 2nd coming will be in a Toyota.
We own a Toyota Corolla and a Mercury Grand Marquis – the Mercury is such a superior vehicle quality-wise that it makes me realize how “follow the crowd” many Americans are. If I could get my wife to replace the Corolla with a Grand Marquis – we’d own two. Since she wants another little crapbox, may as well keep the old one as long as possible, which shouldn’t be much longer based upon the sound of the engine.
I just drove my sister-in-law’s 2003 Jetta 850 miles over the Christmas weekend – couldn’t wait to get back into my Grand Marquis. (nothing like an engine droning at 3,200 rpm at 60 mph for hours on end to get only about 3 mpg more than my Grand Marquis on the highway) Oh yeah – her car just had a new engine under warranty at 28,000 miles, the rear trunk latch is messed up, and the vinyl seats look terrible at only 3 years old – it’s that good German engineering.
Even Ford has bought into it – I’d buy a used Grand Marquis before a new Montego, so apparently I’m not cool enough for Bill Ford either.
So let’s see…youre comparing the driving dynamics of an admitted econobox with those of a dinosaur land yacht like a Grand Marquis, and you call others closed-minded? Bahahahahah
Just because I’m a troublemaker, I decided to throw some gasoline on this hot subject to see what happens.
Here’s a headline that I just now saw on Breitbart.com:
“Ford Motor confirms Toyota talks”
The article really says nothing of substance (really, they could have merely been comparing golf scores), but you can read the excited reporter’s article here:
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/12/27/061227142228.b06l9tc6.html
And here's the crux of the story as reported by Reuters: Ford, Toyota chiefs did not discuss tie-up The chairman of Toyota Motor Corp. met with the chief executive of Ford Motor Co. but they did not discuss the possibility of forming any alliance, Japan's top automaker said today. "It was just a get-acquainted meeting," Toyota spokesman Tomomi Imai said, adding Toyota's top executives constantly meet with counterparts at other automakers Where it may lead is anyone's guess. But I think rumors of a Toyota takeover of Ford are a bit premature.
Edge advertising? WHERE? The ONLY advertisements I have seen (and I have been looking) are for the MXK. There are a number of good (relatively speaking) TV spots for the MKX but they totally ignore the vehicle other than a beginning/ending motion shots and appear totally focused on the hip former soccer Mom.
Frank, your headline is way funnier than mine!
I mean…get this, your headline, unlike mine, was not about a meeting. The headline was not about golf scores. Nor was the headline about the NFL standings. Not about comparing favorite coffees, teas, or sake. Not about “getting to know” each other.
It was about NOT MERGING. My first reaction is … well, “WTF?”
What would you think if you read a headline, “Earth and Mars will not collide after all?”
Of course, it’s all BS. But it’s the funniest thing I’ve heard all week!
The urge to bury Ford is premature in the extreme. Not that my crystal ball is flawless in any way – yet I’m confident that Ford is best poised of all the majors in achieving a necessary turnaround.
And whether that means the company will slip a few pegs in the ranking of “most cars sold” will not matter much to consumers, as long as the cars address their needs – both in price and quality.
Mulally’s meeting with Toyota executives in Tokyo tells you quite a bit about what he’s willing to do in order to achieve the sustainability that has eluded the majors for nearly a decade.
And Bill Ford is comfortably with Mulally’s strategy: “My goal is to fight Toyota and everybody else and come out on top,” Mr. Ford told Time magazine, adding: “I’m not ceding anything to Toyota. They’re an excellent company, and they’re a terrific competitor, but I look forward to taking them on.”
If Toyota are so blankety-blank stupid to buy Ford or invest into / buy part of Ford, I’ll simply have to buy Hondas from here on out.
Toyota’s loss, Honda’s gain, huh?
But I suspect very strongly that Ford was going hat-in-hand about buying hybrid components, and not much else. Either that, or Ford is even more broke and desperate for money, and are discussing selling off Mazda to Toyota. (Or maybe Volvo? Or BOTH Mazda, part owned by Ford now, AND Volvo auto, fully owned by Ford now?) Or, hadn’t anyone else thought of that?
Naturally, I may be wrong. If so, re-read my sentence one above. Ford burned me on my very first new car (1975 Pinto), and on every subsequent purchase I made (didn’t touch one of their cars for 15 years after the Pinto, and wished I hadn’t when I did).
I’ve noticed Ford USA marketing seems out of touch with who actually buys Ford products. I live in Canada and Ford has a great reputation here. They market their vehicles as authentic, tough vehicles that get the job done.
They don’t sell themselves as urban hip like VW, sporty young like Mazda, or the other good brands. Ford has a good brand here too.. vehicles especially trucks for working middle class people, mainly whites frankly. Are you a worker in a resource town, need a tough truck? F-150. The ads portray the type of guy who could fix your sink if it broke driving ford vehicles. Not some metro-sexual hipster.
In the US Ford doesn’t seem to know how to define itself, like it does in Canada.. where it is growing nicely, and making lots of money.
Weird…I kinda like the black CUV cited in the photo…I’m forever ruined to seeing it as a tri-bladed razor…but that will pass. :)
Ford vehicles are mostly for African American people.
From their advertisements and promos, that seems to be their target market.
I guess I would buy a Ford if I were an African American.
So like the gal buying dry cleaning for the stud behind her is targetted toward African Americans? I don’t get it…
Who has bought ANY new GM product (in this century) and had something “fall off”?
Do roofs flying off of ZO6 Corvettes count?
Or how about the front suspension (OK, it was didn’t actually fall of as much as it was dangling off the car) of a 2000 Grand Prix GT?
The crazy thing about marketing in the US is that even when companies do blunder their way into a great advertising theme the eventually tire of it and start blundering again. The last iconic Ford car advertising theme was Have You Driven a Ford, Lately? Demographic targeted advertising which attempts to tell a story about how cool the people are who buy your product doesn’t work for a mass market company because for everyone you appeal to there is someone else you tick off.
BMW recently discovered that even though they have many loyal customers, the majority of luxury car buyers never even consider BMW because of it’s brand image as the car of choice for yuppies and posers.
Ford should be showing us all the amazing and flexible attributes of the Edge rather than wizzing away money on hip-hop stars. Did anyone at Ford notice that the hip-hop era has already started it’s decline? Maybe they should have John Travolta do a Saturday Night Fever remake featuring the Edge :(.
Toyota is doing great on it’s own. There is nothing really in it for Toyota, while Ford has lots to learn and gain from Toyota. But this move is not surprising; Mulally openly admits to being an admirer of the “Toyota Way” as well as the Toyota Production System.
jthorner:”Maybe they should have John Travolta do a Saturday Night Fever remake featuring the Edge”
Maybe then Ford would be ‘stayin’ alive’?
jthorner said “BMW recently discovered that even though they have many loyal customers, the majority of luxury car buyers never even consider BMW because of it’s brand image as the car of choice for yuppies and posers.”
Perhaps it is time for BMW to resurrect the GLAS marque that it killed when it took over GLAS in 1966 or so (in order to get the factory space to build their upcoming 6 cylinder cars, which became the 5, 6 and 7 series eventually).
It would analagous to Mercedes-Benz bringing back MAYBACH.
Not forgetting that to survive, GLAS also built the Goggomobil, a diminutive micro-car with four seats. But now, of course, BMW have MINI so they needn’t think about Goggo being resurrected! Unless they wanted to piss away good money after bad and do a SMART competitor, of course!
I also have to wonder if jthorner is in the UK instead of the US since this attitude that he mentions seems to be much more prevalent there than here (and ironically, I think that BMW’s sales presence in the UK is higher than in the US, I might add).
The biggest problem with the Edge is the price. We’ve got a ~$16,000 vehicle selling for ~$28,000. My parents who would likely buy one will not because of it’s price. If the vehicle was low cost and a great deal, they would be everywhere. It’s going to be a hard sell at the price it’s currently at.
The only thing it’s got is it’s looks and the type of vehicle it is. Everything else is nothing. How do you sell something like that?
The only way Ford can beat the competition is to beat them on all fronts. Offer multiple versions of the same vehicle. One that wins on price(rock bottom stripped down model), one that wins on MPG(using every trick in the book, aero mods, LLR tires, weight savings, etc), a performance model, an optional, build to order, take no prisoners, all out, anything is possible, top end model.
When a vehicle gets reviewed, it either gets faulted for it’s lack of power, it’s lack of mileage, or it’s cheap interior. Build all three models so you can not be faulted. You want mileage or power? Build two interiors. The standard one you make now. The optional top of the F’n line one that is top notch in the world. Sure, it might cost a couple grand, but it’s there for those who insist on a really nice interior.
The only way a Ford Fusion will ever beat a Camry, Accord, or Civic is if it’s better in every way. Every way. If you can’t do it with a single model, do it with multiple models.
The options way wins because it lets a vehicle offer each person what they want. A person who doesn’t want to spend very much(stripped down base model), the MPG version, the performance version, the well equipped version. Right now, all we have is middle of the road, average, boring versions that no one wants at prices no one wants to pay. 1964.5 Mustang. Sold something like ~600,000 of them in six months or something like that? Let’s do that again.
4, 6, 8, diesel, hybrid, electric, cng, hydrogen(internal combustion).
Build hydrogen powered versions of all your vehicles. You’ve built converted CNG vehicles in the past. Do the same with hydrogen. Your big fleet buyers will have no trouble getting a hold of hydrogen at their facilities.
I work at a large government facility and they would have absolutely no trouble getting hydrogen for a fleet of hydrogen powered vehicles. This is going to be true of any large fleet buyer.
Bang out some existing internal combustion vehicles and convert them. Offer them for sale. Get the ball rolling. Who was the first to offer hydrogen vehicles(you!?)?
rtz:
The biggest problem with the Edge is the price. We’ve got a ~$16,000 vehicle selling for ~$28,000. My parents who would likely buy one will not because of it’s price.
ITS price, not IT’S price.
What really amazes me is that Toyota is doing so well without a single car that really looks good. Their reputation for quality carries them despite bland looking cars at best, at a premium price.
roadracer:
Or maybe Toyota buyers think the cars look really good. And maybe they are right. I saw a Camry the other day in what appeared to be their “magnetic grey metallic” color and . . . . it looked really good!
I like the looks of my 2005 Prius, but then I liked the looks of the Citroen ID and DS as well…. function and aerodynamics instead of silly gee-gaws like tail fins, knee-busting dog-leg wrap around windshields and so forth look 50’s kitsch now, but how do you supposed the brick-shaped, overly tall, massively huge “stupendously ugly vehicles” will look after this phase of total irrationality passes away (with $4 per gallon gas)?
The Citroen DS was used in one of the Back to the Future movies for a modern car in the 21st century. You’ll notice there weren’t any 1957 DeSoto’s posing as 21st century cars… likewise the Prius will still have the distinction of looking rational, aerodynamic and nice in decades to come.
taxman100:
I own a Grand Marquis too, and it jsut keeps on truckin.
You’re bang on about North American consumer attitudes.
Replying to roadracer:
What really amazes me is that Toyota is doing so well without a single car that really looks good. Their reputation for quality carries them despite bland looking cars at best, at a premium price.
Well, I suppose that’s from someone who would never buy a Toyota. From my perspective (and many who might seriously consider a Toyota), Yaris is THE best looking sub-compact ever. Corolla is bland. Camry is better than average, at least better than the razor-blade Fusion. Avalon, though bland, looks more refined than any American full-size.
It is interesting to watch Toyota climb its way to the top. It is ironic that aside from the recent recalls, Toyota has not bothered to resolve its engine oil sludge problem. Instead of calling for an actual recall on these engines, it continues to blame the owners for poor maintenance. Toyota says the incidence of engine sludge is “rare”, but owner reports do not indicate the same. Toyota has minimized the problem from day one.
I have been in a rather unique position regarding this engine sludge malady. Over the course of six years, I have read thousands of Toyota owner accounts and compared notes. Toyota does not want to face the truth; it is hoping that the “sludge monster” fades away from public scrutiny. Indeed, there are some who are actively trying to cover up any on-going discussions of Toyota sludge. Some web sites that had thousands of posts on the issue have been hacked. Still, there are lots of Toyota owners looking for help when sludge has disabled their low mileage vehicles. Toyota itself stopped notifying the 3.3 million affected vehicle owners; many owners have revealed that they know nothing about the Customer Support Program for Engine Oil Gelation. Many of the Toyota dealerships aren’t forthcoming with the information.
My question is this…with so few places to go to find other similarly-affected vehicle owners, how does the public get a true sense for what is going on after the sale of the so-called “quality” vehicles? A company like Toyota has the economic means to shape public opinion about its products. Is this reality, though? Is Toyota perpetuating the myth about the high quality of its vehicles and actively working to subdue public criticism of its products? Many Toyota owners believe this is exactly what is happening.
Many Toyota engine oil sludge victims have tried in vain to get Toyota’s Customer Service corporate staff to honor the CSP. Toyota is making the vehicle owners jump through hoops to qualify for the repair coverage/reimbursement. This isn’t what Toyota wants the public to know, though. Many Toyota owners have said that Toyota cares only about the bottom line. These same owners have endured frustration, inconvenience, and financial setback as a result of the sludge condition in their vehicles. These owners are disillusioned with the illusion of Toyota quality. Through word of mouth, they are letting other know.
Corolla owners are also experiencing sludge, but Toyota has conspicously left this model off the list of affected vehicles. The vehicle owners have been reporting oil consumption problems and low mileage blown engines for years. So why isn’t Corolla listed? Is it because this vehicle is Toyota’s bread and butter? Is Toyota selectively including vehicles to limit the negative PR?
Isn’t there something wrong with Toyota’s actions here? Shouldn’t Toyota put its money where its mouth is and properly resolve the sludge matter for all concerned? Will the buying public find a way to openly discuss vehicle problems without censorship and spin control? Will Toyota and the other automakers allow this dialogue without interference?
The new buzz words are “consumer-generated media” and such. Will the automakers devise a means of manipulating this CGM? If so, will the buying public see through it and ask tough questions?
As time goes on, auto consumers will need to join together to see that their voices are heard clearly. I think that consumers will demand more than corporate hype and brand-name myths as they decide what to purchase. True quality will come from real-world experience, not corporate mantras. Do you suppose Toyota will get this? Or, will it simply be satisfied with controlling what the public does and does not know about its products?
Charlene Blake
cblake@erols.com
CSJohnston wrote:
“And California, get over yourself.”
In a context where the only mention of California was from
CliffG:
“Over the weekend the news broke that Japanese nameplates outsold the domestic 2.5 for the first time in California. When
it comes to automobiles California has pretty much a 50 (60? 70?) year unbroken record of being at the head of the rest of the country, and the rest of the country following.”
At the severe risk of starting a pointless flame war, which is
what happened the last time Queen Califia’s realm was
mentioned here…what am I, as a Californian, supposed to do
to “get over myself”? Should I forceably stop non-Californian
Americans from buying what I last bought (a Subaru)? How
would I go about doing such a thing?
If California consumers have for decades been delivering the
Big 3 a message they don’t want to hear, then country-wide
declining market share should be a sign that Detroit’s
ears need to be unstopped – it ain’t just us. If that hasn’t
been the case, then there’s no need for anyone to be touchy
about the preferences of California consumers. Nothing to
see here, just move on.