A forty-something friend once told me that I can’t have my cake and eat it too. I took it literally, as we were facing a well-stocked dessert table at the time. Though my 29-year-old metabolism burns off whatever sugar coated dish I cram into my mouth, I’ve had enough engineering education to understand the concept that two things cannot coexist in the same time – space continuum—at least until you get down to the sub atomic level. But then I found another loophole: a Honda Accord LX.
Mind you, the Accord’s design is about as exciting as waiting for dark matter to wander by. But for buyers who value stealth over spizzarkle, the Accord has the right angle stuff. The mid-sizer’s creases and curves adds to the model’s unassuming sleekosity; the latest taillight redesign and the rocker panel’s negative area reduce visual heft like a GQ magazine cover artist photochopping Kate Winslet’s stems.
The Accord’s front has a pronounced wedge shape, accentuated by elegant headlamps and a smartly integrated hood cutline. Aside from the discordant chrome moustache on the grille, the Accord is one of the best examples of understated automotive styling this side of an Aston Martin DB9. Of course, unlike David Brown's legacy, driving a Honda Accord is about as likely to get you noticed as wearing a red and white striped shirt at a “Where’s Waldo?” convention.
The Accord’s interior is equally non-descript, if well-lit, perfectly proportioned and faultlessly featured. Hence the reason Accord virgins invariably exclaim, “Gee it’s big in here!” (rather than using the word “nice”). While The Big 2.5’s defenders are quick to get out their measuring tapes and compare feature counts, to understand the Accord’s allure, they need to feel the love. The sedan’s precisely dampened switches, knobs and levers are more than a pleasant surprise. At this price point, they’re a miracle.
Activating the Accord’s turn signal stalk is like biting into a Lindt chocolate truffle. The glove box and lower dash storage binnacle doors open with all the graceful, elegant motion of a sunflower blooming in a time lapse movie. The Accord’s portal treatments combine rich cloth inserts, classy vinyl and integrated storage nooks, creating a segment high watermark. There’s space aplenty for kids and cargo, with the ideal amount of visibility for pampered back seat passengers.
Certainly the Accord’s plastic flash casting must be as nasty as anything in an Impala. Happy hunting; I didn’t find any. Yet perfection is (as always) elusive: the rear seat needs a higher butt cushion for long distance comfort. And then the Accord’s sensual snickery whispers “Pay no attention to the cost cutting behind that curtain.” And so you don’t.
The 2.4-liter engine is equally soothing– at least by four-banger standards. Depress the drive-by-wire throttle and the Accord revs both progressively and freely towards max power (166hp @ 5800rpm). The automatic box lacks the latest thing in transmissions (a sixth or seventh gear), but it swaps cogs with sufficient timing and speed (working with continuous variable valve timing) to keep lazy and sporting drivers in whatever torque the mill can muster (160 ft. lbs. @ 4000rpm).
The Accord LX is no neck snapper; it saunters from zero to 60mph in 8.1 seconds, and finishes the quarter mile in 16.6 seconds. At least you don’t pay for such, um, exuberance, at the pump; the ever-optimistic (at least ‘til later this year) feds report that the LX gets 24mpg about town, 34mpg on the open road. But with 3200 pounds in tow, the Accord’s four-cylinder is still the weakest link on the love train.
If and when you build up a head of steam, the LX’ driving dynamics are entirely entertaining. The pride of Marysville preserves any momentum you can carry into a corner and even lets you add more speed after the apex. The steering is nicely weighted, reasonably quick and linear. The stoppers operate better than the cheapie drum brakes (rear) and plastic wheel covers (15”) imply. And when Dr. Jekyll sublimates Mr. Hyde, the Accord gives a wonderfully compliant and isolating ride.
Strangely, you can’t order your four-pot Accord with stability/traction control, brake assist or electronic brake force distribution. The omission reflects a gaping hole in the Accord lineup: a mid-priced, lower output (circa 200hp) six-cylinder variant that splits the difference between value-priced sensibility and pricey pace. The Accord LX has excellent interior trimmings, big car real estate, pistonhead-approved handling and a comfortable ride, but it needs an effortless engine to match.
At $20k, the Honda Accord LX suffers against similarly priced, smoother-running V6 competitors from America (Ford Fusion) and South Korea (Hyundai Sonata). A mid-grade engine would keep the middle-class Accord ahead of the pack, while staying true to its understated style. The Ohio-built Japanese sedan would be, quite literally, the best of both worlds.
Yep. It’s nice car with the best 4-cylider engine in the class. However, given its price, it’s hard to ignore Ford Fusion V6 SE. Plus, if you get a Fusion, your car won’t look like the other ten Accords on the same block.
Funny how this Accord differs from the one we know in Europe. I believe we get the Acura TSX sold as Accord over here, which is available with the same 2.4 engine, alongside a 2.0 four petrol and 2.2 CiTD diesel engine.
Allthough all the magazines describe it as a very good car though, it isn’t nearly as popular as it is in the US. Most cars in this segment are leased in Europe and people maybe therefore tend to get a Passat, A4, 3-Series, Peugeot 407 or Mondeo instead. With a diesel engine, obviously.
I like Hondas though I wouldn’t choose an Accord over the 3-series (320d and Accord diesel are direct competitors in this segment).
When I drove the just-freshened 2005 Nissan Altima back-to-back with an Accord a couple years ago, I noticed that the Accord interior contained considerably more hard plastic. And yet it still had a richer ambiance than the Altima, despite the many soft-touch bits Nissan added that year. I’ve always wondered how it could be.
Thanks to this article, I now know this was Honda’s sensual snickery at work. Not sure what that means, but it’s as good an explanation as any I’ve come up with.
I did find the ride harsher and noisier than is implied here, but then I drove the V6, which I believe has a firmer suspension.
Quick links to the most common price comparisons for the Accord can be found in the sidebar here:
http://www.truedelta.com/models/Accord.php
if i had to buy a car in the mid sized Family car segment i think it would have to be a mazda 6. This accord is just to boring and the camary is to…well…werid.
Amazing how similiar the Camry’s interior is the accord, same big grey plastic door under the radio, only thing missing is the knee pockets. All I know is the Camry’s was a POS in the lower half, I will take your word the Honda’s is better.
I sat in the new Accord at NAIAS. In my opinion the interior build quality does not deserve any unusual praise. According to TTAC’s policy to call out cars with “hard plastic – model airplane material” this Accord would definitely fall under that category…. IMHO
Accord SE is available in Canada with four banger and all the rest of the goodies.
JJ
Many (probably the majority of) American buyers are less concerned with a brand’s heritage or pizzazz than they are with the “no-brainer solution”–that car that will be a reasonable price up front, then run flawlessly for 5-10 years with just the bare minimum of maintenance. Nobody can touch Accord and Camry in that arena–at least in reputation (for now).
I admire the Accords, but I think of them as the car I would buy for my wife. No matter what improvements have been made, I’m still a glutton for punishment from the Germans and I don’t see that changing any time soon. I’ll perform (or pay for) a little extra maintenance to avoid being stuck in the automotive anonymity that is perfectly exemplified by the Accord. In my “33% rule” for the purpose of cars (transport/hobby/artwork), the Accord fits part 1 perfectly, part 2 halfway, and part 3 not at all. IMHO, of course.
btw, don’t they offer the Civic’s 190hp vtec in the Accord? That sounds like the perfect upgrade for this model to split the difference with the V6.
Another great review, Sajeev, a virtual literary symphony. My favorite line – ..’reduce visual heft like a GQ magazine cover artist photochopping Kate Winslet’s stems”.
Would TTAC ever consider doing comparison tests? I would be interested in how this thing compares with the base Fusion Jonny tested.
Life’s too short to drive boring cars.
Ash, my guess would be that the Civic’s VTEC motor would lack sufficient torque for a car this size–it’s barely enough for the Civic, even though it does move it when screaming into the high end of the tach.
JJ, a Euro-spec Accord is my biggest Honda desire for the US market here. And I mean sold as a Honda, not an Acura (TSX), which carries with it a bunch of unnecessary electronic stuff, a snobbier image, and a high price tag (I still want one, though ;)
I have to go w/ 1984 on this one…the exterior of this car is so remarkably bland it borders on ugly, but at least they got rid of the garfield tail lights which put it dead smack into hideous.
The interior is functional but similarily bland…I can’t imagine how an owner looking for anything more than decent seat on his daily commute could derive any joy out of what is less a “car” than a “transportation device” in pistonhead terms. Not that this is necessarily a bad thing as sales figures make evident (hows it selling compared to the new Camry/Altima/Fusion?) but I would’ve hoped Honda (at least compared to Toyota) thought to add some flavor …
ejacobs
Ahh, ok. I was thinking the Civic vtec was just the vvt version of the same 2.4, but it’s really the 2.0 (which is no doubt peakier). So the Accord is a bigger bore.
Sorry, couldn’t resist.
Sajeev,
That was an interesting comment on the turn stalk. Whenever I drive my mom’s two-year-old Accord, I regularly turn on the brights accidentally when activating the turn signal. I was wondering if you noticed anything like that. I couldn’t quite tell by your similie because I never thought Lindt choclates were very good, but I’m sure some people do.
The Accord coupe concept, which will provide many design ques for the ’08 production coupe has been shown. It won’t be too wild, as the “target market” must be kept in mind…
Pics are here: http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=648500 (Scroll down the page for pics.)
Depending on your tastes, it might fill in part of the missing “artwork” element of ash78‘s “transport/hobby/artwork” rule.
I’d agree with labrat: A Fusion / Accord comparo would be interesting reading here on TTAC. (Maybe toss in the new Altima, too.) Question is, should the Accord used for such a comparison be the current 7th generation car, or the 8th generation car due this September?
The Civic iVTEC engine (as in the Si) is low of torque (offering a paltry139 ft. lbs.). Its 197 HP is kinda nice though, as is the Si’s limited-slip differential; 6-speed manual; disc brakes all around (with EBD); and the ’07 Si adds (defeatable) stability control. I’d expect most of this will show up in the ’08 Accord.
It’d be nice to see a Fusion coupe, which could compete with the (upcoming) Altima & Accord coupes due out later this year.
The Accord is more than the sum of its parts. They’ve been winning C&D comparison tests year after year for their consistently high levels of fit and finish, and better handling than the competition IN THE SEGMENT.
Frankly, I’d love to have an Accord V-6 with a 6-speed manual. The perfect Q-ship.
Cowbell:
Then there’s the ergonomics of the Pontiac G6 GXP I rented in Florida recently: It was a longer reach from steering-wheel to turn-signal/high-low beam stalk by an inch over that of my Honda coupe. With your left thumb looped around the steering wheel, extending your remaining fingers for an extra inch is notable.
How do I know it’s an inch further? Call me anal, but when I rented a plain-jane G6 (non GXP) this past summer, I noticed the difference, so I grabbed a ruler and measured the reach.
To me, that’s an example of the attention to small details which add up to seperate a Honda from some Detroit cars.
Seems like an almost insignifcant detail, yet the devil is in the details. Over time, the extra reach required would bug me–unless I’d not have experienced greener grass elsewhere.
I’m not saying Honda’s are perfect–but when it comes to controls that fall easily to hand, Honda does pay attention.
[Edit:] But the 200-ish HP in the V6 GXP was nice to play with!
HUH? What part of “optional V6” don’t you understand? Needs a V6 to match the competition? BULLSHIITE!!! The competition with a V6 is in the $25K range, and GUESS WHAT! You can actually BUY an Accord with a big smoking V6 and all the computer nannies just like the other guys… for $25K!
Come on Sajeev, you did a great job measuring this mid-level Accord according to it’s price point for 3/4 of the article, but what happened at the end? You surely know that there is a V6 LX and a V6 EX model will all the goods if you are willing to pay. Starting in 2006 they even starting offering the V6 with a 6-speed STICK SHIFT!!!
Considering the $20K price, the LX model has the market cornered for a FOUR CYLINDER mid-size. And if you come here to our Mega Honda dealer you can choose from about 50 Accord LXs and drive it home for between 18k-19K before taxes.
Oh yeah, they have plenty with the V6 if you want one.
Oh yeah, they are about to completely redesign the Accord for 2008, not just the Coupe. Just when the Focus/Camry/Impala were starting to catch up, the all new next generation Accord will appear. So what was reviewed here was the outgoing, lame duck model.
There’s something to be said for a competent, event free car ownership experience. The thing starts, costs almost nothing to maintain, low monthlies, seems like a dream come true. I am always caught here. Or a fun car, perhaps higher stress ownership, but lots more fun in the twisties. My golf wants to be on side roads, plunging into corners. The Honda wants to be on the highway, serenely playing Chopin on the cd, or at least Grateful Dead. I want both. And I want them to be able to morph into each other at the flip of a switch. Ah… I obviously need a BMW, damn….
Honda builds the mid-sized sedans Mercedes used to build. Actually, quite a bit better.
“…the Accord is one of the best examples of understated automotive styling this side of an Aston Martin DB9. “
Buddy, I think you’re writing is generally fantastic, but you just lost a little cred with a crazy statement like that. This design is by far the most disjointed and design-deprived Accord ever. Everyone still loves them because they drive great, are well built and have great near-lux interiors, and they are still better looking than a Camry. But coffee came out of my nose with the Accord/AM comparison.
Know what a used 2005 Accord LX with 24K miles goes for? $17-18K around here ….
Or you can buy a BRAND NEW 2006 FORD FUSION for $10,999 here!!!! Any guess on what the resale will be for the Fusions?
The Accord is a great all around car – hence why it is #1 in the US in terms of RETAIL sales and #2 in terms of total sales (as only 1% are fleets).
I can’t believe you even compared it to a Hyundai Sonata. At least in an Accord no one makes fun of you and it’s not an embarrassement. The sonata reeks of cheapness and screams ‘low class’.
Guess thats why the sonata is over 50% fleets now? Most real Americans are even embarrassed to drive one as a rental! At Hertz last time they offered me a Sonata I refused and told them they had to give me something – anything else!
rodster: At those prices, I’d probably buy the Fusion and keep the cash in my pocket. But based on my own experience owning several Fords and Hondas, with the Fusion, I’d have a pile of wheezy junk in 8 years. With the Accord, I’d have a car that still drove more or less like new, with another 4-5 years of reliable service in it. My Civic ran strong for 14 years and 265,000 miles until a combination of rust and a hit-and-run driver finally did it in.
I hate the accord only slightly less than the camry. Both of these cars represent what I despise most in the automotive world: appliances.
It seems as though the design team and engineers at Honda (and even moreso at Toyota) have entirely given up on design and soul, and decided that cars are and should only be appliances that take you from point A to point B and nothing else.
For a car enthusiast like me, that’s the worst kind of car. And no matter how much attention is given to the small things (like the location of the blinker respective to the steering wheel), it still doesn’t give any heart to the car. You think early 90’s Ferraris paid attention to those small details? Their electric windows barely worked 90% of the time…
It’s a shame that a company like Honda, which was such a unique company at its origin, making amazing bikes and ATVs (which it still does btw), has turned into a mini-me version of Toyota…
tracy:
How did the Sonata rain on your parade? It’s not the most dinstinctive of cars, but there’s nothing particularly wrong with it. Read my review here.
It’s also a pretty damn good “value” proposition.
“…the Accord is one of the best examples of understated automotive styling this side of an Aston Martin DB9. “
Can I have some of what you’re smoking?
“I can’t believe you even compared it to a Hyundai Sonata. At least in an Accord no one makes fun of you and it’s not an embarrassement. The sonata reeks of cheapness and screams ‘low class’.”
That’s really funny to hear, seeing as how the Koreans hold the portion of the market that the japanese held 15-20 years ago. Honda and Toyota better be scared of Hyundai/Kia, because they offer you better cars (or at least equally good cars) for much better value.
I think an Accord driver saying driving a Hyundai is embarrassing is funny. Because while you say you’d never be caught dead in a Hyundai, I (an Audi driver) will tell you I’d never be caught dead in a Honda… It’s just a matter of taste.
And a Honda/Hyundai comparison is very valid – they both offer good safety, good reliability, but Hyundai does it at better value
Honda will be introducing a higher performance 4 cylinder engine in the redesigned Accord along with a higher performance V6 and a Diesel version a year later.
In this segment, fully 70% of sales are four cylinder models. Call me biased, but I still feel the four cylinder engine in the Accord is one of the best both in performance and feel.
Still, the point made about the Fushion (and the Aura) are valid and at least shows that the domestics are trying to compete.
At Hertz last time they offered me a Sonata I refused and told them they had to give me something – anything else!
Did the same, but with a rental Mustang. Just could not take the Lego-inspired interior plastics in the ‘stang. The outside of the Mustang was sexy to be sure, but I drive from inside…
I take issue with those that say Hondas have no soul.
The Prelude, the Civic Si, the NSX, come on, those are (were) great cars that had plenty of “soul” where it mattered; the ability to cut up a back road.
Maybe you’re mistaking “soul” with cars that would routinely break down and turn the most mundane commute into an adventure.
If you priced an Accord at $40,000 the way an Audi A4 is, I’ll bet it would have all the soul you can handle
Rodster205:
The competition with a V6 is in the $25K range
That depends on what you mean by “competition.” If you’re talking Camry, then OK. If you’re talking Fusion, Sonata, or even Impala, wrong. Their V6 models all list around the $21-22K range (prices from Edmunds.com):
Accord LX 4 cyl- 20,925
Accord LX 6 cyl – 25,200
Camry SE 6 cyl – 24,815
Fusion SE 6 cyl – 20,945
Sonata SE 6 cyl – 21,345
Impala LS 6 cyl – 20,945
Of course, as they say, equipment levels and prices may vary and actual sales prices may be lower than list.
Given the choice of an Accord or Camry I’d take the Accord. They are a little better looking and more fun to drive. The Accord also seems larger than a Fusion and Mazda6 and should hold its value better in resale. IF I had to get a new mid-sized car in the 20 something price range I’d probably opt for a Mazda 6. Reasonably good looks even though it’s been around for a few years, sporty driving and handling and a nice interior. I’d try a Saturn Aura probably but I don’t like that I can’t haggle over one.
If I was really looking for just a mid-sized 20 something car I’d opt for a used A4 quattro, TSX or 3 series. With a nod to the Audi since it depreciates more and I could just stick all season tires on it.
For 2007, the Accord V6 SE is available for $23,945 MSRP including dest. With Honda’s agressive pricing at the moment, one can drive off the dealer paying a smidge over 20K for a 6-cyl Accord. Sounds like a good deal to me.
I agree that the new Sonata is quite a good car – substantially better than the previous models. However they have a reputation to overcome for selling cheap crappy cars. But they are getting along and selling the car even though it has moved up slightly from bargain basement to mid level priced.
But I do agree the Accord is one of the best overall cars on the market from quality to driving feel. Makes sense b/c they are so highly involved in motorsports as the founder of the company focused on racing to improve their products. Was always his motto “do less with more”.
I just caught your Sonata review Robert and after month 5 of having traded my 330i for one I must say you’re spot on.
Its not that the Sonata does everthing well, its that it manages do so so many things competently. It doesn’t beg for you to thrash it around a corner, but if you do, the car will hold up better than you would think (I out hustle wanna-bes in SLKs and Mustangs on off ramps all the time); the ride is a bit floaty and the steering indifferent, but it soaks up bumps like an old buick with out feeling like it belongs at sea; it is roomy enough for 5 and can bring their luggage long too; plenty of interior storage, lighting and power outlets for laptop/GPS; and to top if off feels the mechanicals feel bulletproof, with 10yr warrarnty backing them up….for 20k, you’d have a hard time finding a better value family car.
Btw…I owned a ’02 Accord Coupe and it’s the most boring car I’ve ever owned. For some reason I can’t forgive it for some of the faults I’ve come to accept in the Hyundai (i.e. wheezy engine and plastic interior), partly because so many things kept breaking i.e. seals around the door keep coming off, paint that chips off like its nailpolish, constant check engine light (admittedly minor issues, but the none of that from the Sonata so far), and partly because of the aftermentioned “soul” but by which I don’t mean hazy concepts like “mystique” or “heritage” but plain old “fun to drive” which the Accord decidedly wasn’t.
Especially compared to (yet another Japanese) car I’ve owned, a ’97 Maxima SE, which cost about the same but was a blast to drive and compares well to this day to any luxury/sport car under 40k.
“If you priced an Accord at $40,000 the way an Audi A4 is, I’ll bet it would have all the soul you can handle”
That exists already: it’s the Acura TL. and it also has no soul as far as i’m concerned. The TL to me is just that, a $40,000 Accord, and anyone who buys it is either doing it to show off or has no comprehension of what an Acura really is. Comparing an Audi A4 to an Accord is just laughable. I’m sure you were only trying to make a point, but by saying something like an Accord at $40,000 would have as much soul as an A4 really invalidates everything else you just wrote.
Audi (and BMWs and Merecedes) have a very distinct character. Even though Bangle has been bastardizing BMW design over the past few years, you can still tell, the second you see a bimmer, that its a bimmer. Just as you can with an Audi, and with an MB.
Accords, and Camrys, just seem like they’re floating all over the place. Compare the accord from 10 years ago to the Accord from today. They don’t even look remotely alike. They have no similar design cues, no similarity in general shape, etc. But if you look at an 80s Porsche, a 90s Porsche, and a 00s Porsche, you can CLEARLY see that they are all the same car. They have the same soul throughout, with the looks changing over time to reflect current trends.
Now I realise that we’re comparing two completely different beasts here: german luxury and japanese economy. But the point I’m trying to make is, you don’t have to deprive your car of soul to make a good car. Racing cred (of which Honda has a fair amount, though toyota has none), continuous design cues, etc. make a car have soul for me. I like when I see a 70’s E series Benz and a 2007 E series Benz and, despite all the differences, I see that it’s the same car at heart. That gives a car-lover like me joy…
nino:
“If you priced an Accord at $40,000 the way an Audi A4 is, I’ll bet it would have all the soul you can handle.”
That’s the truth. If Audi or Mercedes brought out the Accord with a tire upgrade as an “entry level” car starting at $30,000, the snobs would be falling over each other to love it. Remember the BMW 318, the “entry level” 80’s Beemer that Civic Sis and VW GTIs could eat for lunch at half the price?
I (an Audi driver) will tell you I’d never be caught dead in a Honda…
That sounds quite funny to me, since I think Honda is in many ways the Japanese equivalent of Audi…(front wheel drive that tries to be sporty, understated design with some exceptions (Euro-Civic, TT). I also quite like both Audi and Honda, though not as much as BMW.
Then again, I live in Europe, so the market place looks quite different here (for instance, no Acura).
I wouldn’t want to be caught dead in either a Toyota, Lexus (have there ever been found people with a pulse in a Lexus?) and even -dare I say it- the largest part of Mercedes’ line-up. I would never want to own a Hyundai/Kia either, but at least I sort of get why people buy them…sort of.
audimination: I see your point. It’s about design, history, mystique. It’s about the romance of the car as much as the car itself. I can respect that. I’d love to have a vintage 911 myself for exactly that reason, even knowing a modern V6 Accord could quite possibly out-drive it now. That said, I still feel like I work too hard for my money to buy an A4. Seems like you’re paying a big premium there for that sense of design and heritage.
That said, I still feel like I work too hard for my money to buy an A4. You’re paying a big premium for what you value.
And aggravation. I can’t imagine a worse way to start off your morning commute in Upstate, NY’s dead of winter than to wait for road side assistance to pick up your used Audi. Around here, reliability isn’t just a factor to consider, it is the ONLY thing to consider.
BTW: Sajeev is off studying his engineering stuff. He regrets no being able to respond to your comments immediately, but will return to fill in the blanks ASAP.
I agree that the Acura TL is a fancy Accord, but around me, it goes out the door at $33,000. The new Type “S” will be around $36,000 out the door.
An Audi A3 “S-Line” (which I love) goes out the door at a tick over $40,000.
Honda is also a company that is relatively new (compared to Audi, BMW, and Mercedes-Benz) at making cars. They are still looking for their design signature.
I think what the problem is that Accords ARE all over the place. This adds to the impression that there can’t be anything special about them because anyone can get one.
“That sounds quite funny to me, since I think Honda is in many ways the Japanese equivalent of Audi…”
I wasn’t actually trying to take a shot at Honda when I said that. I was just showing the person who was hating on Hyundai that it can work both way.
As for the problems with Audi, I honestly have not had any serious problems as of yet. Of course, I’m of the belief that if you want to buy luxury, you have to get rid of it before the warranty is over. That said, of the cars I’ve owned (E420, 740iL, ML500, currently RS4) I have to say the RS4 has been the one that has given me the least problems. The ML500 was the worst…
Minor nit: It’s competition from Mexico (fusion) and Alabama (sonata).
audimination: I see your point. It’s about design, history, mystique. It’s about the romance of the car as much as the car itself. I can respect that. I’d love to have a vintage 911 myself for exactly that reason, even knowing a modern V6 Accord could quite possibly out-drive it now. That said, I still feel like I work too hard for my money to buy an A4. Seems like you’re paying a big premium there for that sense of design and heritage.
Hey, I’like those cars too, but I feel that it’s about time we call a spade a spade.
I love Audi interiors, I like the way the look on the outside, they even drive pretty good (with Quattro), but these cars are priced out of whack for the driving “experience” they deliver.
An A4 with 200HP and front wheel drive sells around here in the mid to high thirties and with all due respect to Audimination, isn’t a better driver than the Acura TL. An A4 with a V6 and Quattro, blows past $40,000 like it was nothing.
And of course my favorite Audi (and BMW and Mercedes) “option” that I get to pay for; $1,000 extra for any color other than white or red!
And not to knock Audi (it just happens to be the subject at the moment), my cousin has had some issues with the 1.8 liter turbo motor in his A4.
I believe he has the same sludge issues that has plagued Toyota.
“And of course my favorite Audi (and BMW and Mercedes) “option” that I get to pay for; $1,000 extra for any color other than white or red!”
totally agree with you there. that color scheme is a crock. they also stuff a lot of other useless options into the cars at obnoxious prices to improve their margins. But then again, that is why the german luxury marks are all among the most profitable companies in the car industry. I know that Porsche is actually the most profitable car company period today (in terms of margins, not actual profits, obviously)
though i disagree that an Audi drive is worst than an Acura drive. If you compare similar cars the audi will win every time. The problem is you’re comparing similar pricing, and no matter how much Honda tries, Acura is just not in the class of cars with the germans (yet), so there’s no justification for acura to sell their cars at german car prices. Maybe in 10 years they’ll be able to, but not just yet. Lexus still can’t even justify german prices (at every market segment, their cars are 5-10% cheaper than the german counterpart)…
“And not to knock Audi (it just happens to be the subject at the moment), my cousin has had some issues with the 1.8 liter turbo motor.”
That’s quite possible. I think Turbos have to be executed to perfection to remain reliable. They often cause more trouble than they’re worth
Audimination wrote – way too much stuff to quote – regarding “soul.”
I find your lengthy note on “soul” to be extremely interesting, as it focused almost entirely on looks. Typically, when we discuss “soul” we are referring to something that is unseen and, inherently, can not be seen.
If I was going to discuss the “soul” of a car, I’d think I’d be talking about the typical feel of that brand of vehicle, the layout of controls and the typical tradeoffs the manufacturer makes in terms of road feel and handling vs ride, power vs economy, grunt vs high-rpm power.
I can’t believe you even compared it to a Hyundai Sonata. At least in an Accord no one makes fun of you and it’s not an embarrassement. The sonata reeks of cheapness and screams ‘low class’.
I’m jumping on the Sonata defense bandwagon here. I’d sooner own one than a Camry or Accord. I believe that this is the best car for the money in its class, and based on what I’ve read about the plant so far, it has no bearing on any previous Hyundai models. I’m guessing the reason you see it in rental fleets is because that’s a way to get the word out when you’ve been the perennial cheapo underdog for so many years.
My old man travels quite a bit, renting at least one car a week. He says the Sonata is hands-down the best rental car he’s ever had by a pretty hefty margin. His daily driver is a VW R32.
“If I was going to discuss the “soul” of a car, I’d think I’d be talking about the typical feel of that brand of vehicle, the layout of controls and the typical tradeoffs the manufacturer makes in terms of road feel and handling vs ride, power vs economy, grunt vs high-rpm power.”
KixStart: you’re probably right. I shouldve more clearly explained that I guess. When I say soul, it’s always a hard thing for me to describe. I guess it’s just something that is inherently a part of the car but is not really explicitly understandable.
Let me give you an example. To me, some of the little tidbits about what makes a mercedes a mercedes is tail lights, which always have the corrugated horizontal lines. Also, when you accelerate, the engine doesn’t make much noise (is pretty quiet), and the ride is extremely smooth (at least that was my expectation and my experience with my two mercedes).
BMW, on the other hand, is all about aggressiveness, pushing the car. the engine is loud, telling you that you’re driving a powerful car. Also, the little grill on the front is crucial.
Audi is all about a mix of luxury and performance. the interior is what it’s all about wiht Audi. as well as the somewhat timelesss rectangular front headlights. And let’s not forget hte most important part: Quattro.
Volvo is a box-y car that is as strong as a tank.
Saab is quirky design that leaves you breathless
Cadillace is a huge car that is the personification of american grandeur.
etc. etc. etc.
But what is Honda (and to a much greater extent Toyota)? What are they supposed to represent? Just plain reliability? That’s not the most important thing for when I look for a car. Neither has any specific timeless design cues. No automotive limits have been pushed by camry or accord. What history are you buying? When you sit in an accord, it just feels like it’s there, you konw? Just blah. It doesn’t FEEL like you’re in something special. Again, i can’t really describe too well what I’m getting at, but anybody who experiences this will understand.
i’d like to end by saying that this blandness is not unique to toyota and honda. GM has been more than guilty of this in many of its models, as have Dodge/Chrysler and Ford…
there was a report this week the Porsche profits an average of 28,000 per car! they came out and said that isnt true because all the survey ppl did was divide profit by number of cars sold. they had other contributing factors. the estimate is still about 20,000/car though!
orignal report
http://www.leftlanenews.com/2007/01/22/report-porsche-profits-28000-per-car/
Porsche Responce
http://www.leftlanenews.com/2007/01/25/porsche-denies-per-vehicle-profit-figures/#comments
though i disagree that an Audi drive is worst than an Acura drive. If you compare similar cars the audi will win every time. The problem is you’re comparing similar pricing, and no matter how much Honda tries, Acura is just not in the class of cars with the germans (yet), so there’s no justification for acura to sell their cars at german car prices. Maybe in 10 years they’ll be able to, but not just yet. Lexus still can’t even justify german prices (at every market segment, their cars are 5-10% cheaper than the german counterpart)…
In front wheel drive (not Quattro), I felt that the A4 understeered way more than the TL did. Ironically, the Cadillac CTS felt better than both. RWD I guess.
In comparing the price of the Acura TL and an Audi A4 around me (Long Island), the price difference is dramatic, as much as a 25% difference. I feel that it’s hard to justify that difference based solely on the driving dynamics of both those cars. If you punch in the Accord, a car with more room than the Audi with a more dramatic price difference and very good driving dynamics….
I understand that the Accord and A4 are considered in different classes, but that’s a product of the marketplace in the US.
In ten years, Acura (and Lexus) will have developed enough of a following where they will be considered in the same league as Audi, BMW, etc., I guess. I personally feel that if you were able to drive the cars back-to-back without knowing who made them, the higher price would need to be justified.
I hate to belabor the point of price. I feel that if you’re paying a certain price, some things just should be expected. I remember when paying a higher price got you a better motor, much better performance, better handling, etc. It’s not the case today.
I wonder how it compares against the Fusion. Personally, in that segment, isn’t the Fusion the best bang-for-the-buck you can get, given Ford’s ridiculous give-money-away deals?
I’ve never owned or even driven a Honda, but it is one of the few cars I don’t hear everyone bitching about. They always seem to make subtle design changes from year to year (in most cases) but always stay on course. How many companies have been making the same two sedans for the past 30 odd years? The only Honda I don’t care for is the ridgeline. It reminds me of a sofa bed. Truck of the year – Honestly…
I shopped a Frigidaire refrigerator but ended up going with a Whirpool because it just had more soul (I like how the italics make it seem more ethereal).
So much spiritual talk here! Maybe RF could get tax-exempt status like a church.
Just a word about soul as it pertains to cars:
In my view, “soul” is more of a perception based on tradition and a racing heritage. A car made by a manufacturer that has this, I agree that their products should reflect that in their driving dynamics and looks. Where I think a problem arises is that today, many of the manufacturers that have this heritage, are trying to expand beyond their normal markets, I guess what is refered to as losing their focus. When this happens, the product is dilluted and other up-and-comers will be comparable.
What also compounds this in my opinion, is that today, you can develop a “heritage” rather quickly especially if you race. Who’s going to deny that Subaru now arguably has a better rally “heritage” than both SAAB and Audi in the US? Look at how the Corvette’s reputation has been shined because of the successes at LeMans.
I understand the point about Honda not having that certain “something”, I really do. But I feel that it isn’t so much that Honda doesn’t have “it” as much as some others may have lost a bit of “it”.
I shopped a Frigidaire refrigerator but ended up going with a Whirpool because it just had more soul (I like how the italics make it seem more ethereal).
Oh come on now!
If you were looking for soul, you would’ve gotten a General Electric.
They’ve been around for YEARS!
LOL!
Nice to see that there is a sense of humor around here.
My family owned two 1992 Accords for ten years. For four of those years, we drove to work every day over a commuter road that was being rebuilt–lots of steel plates, bumps, dust, etc. The Honda ate that stuff up and came out smiling and trouble free. That’s soul.
That said, I’d be the first to admit that driving a four cylinder Accord did not generate passion. There are other cars that I would love to buy except that reliability means everything to me.
I wonder how it compares against the Fusion. Personally, in that segment, isn’t the Fusion the best bang-for-the-buck you can get, given Ford’s ridiculous give-money-away deals?
I think what is holding the Fushion back is that certain options aren’t available with the four cylinder engine.
Honda offers up a four cylinder EX version with leather and other up market options that many people shopping this segment seem to want.
nino,
I’m pretty sure the top of the line SEL Fusion can be had with either 4 or 6 cyl.
“But what is Honda (and to a much greater extent Toyota)? What are they supposed to represent?”
Honda is all about the discipline of engineering over marketing. What their cars have in common is small, high-revving engines, precise shifters, light, limber handling, good ergonomics, decent fuel economy, and exceptional reliability. Whereas a lot of cars have flaws that grow more annoying over time, Hondas are all about delivering more than you expected.
Has every car they’ve ever made executed flawlessly on that promise? I doubt it. But neither has every Audi been luxurious, every BMW exciting, etc. It’s all about building character over time, and I think you have to give Honda credit for doing that. I can see the same “soul” underlying my old 75 Civic hatchback and my 04 Element.
The question is not whether Hondas have “soul,” but whether that soul speaks to you.
nino,
I’m pretty sure the top of the line SEL Fusion can be had with either 4 or 6 cyl.
No traction control available with the four and you need to add a few options to the SEL packge four to bring it up to the level of the SEL package V6.
There are also visual trim differences and different wheels.
Minor points though.
Anybody comparing Accord with Fusion dont get it. Camcords have loyal following and new conquests at the same time. Fusion followers are different and are typically customers of big 3 anyway. Crossshop all you want but chances are you already made your mind up before. Your head needs some justifications that either come up or made up to support your heart.
Seth
Anybody comparing Accord with Fusion dont get it.
Which means, by proxy, Ford doesn’t get it (re: comparo ads). Which is probably very true.
Besides that, those ads sell the V6 AWD on performance, but then pitch the I4 FWD in the numbers without any transition. That’s as close to bait-and-switch as it gets for most average consumers.
Anybody comparing Accord with Fusion dont get it. Camcords have loyal following and new conquests at the same time. Fusion followers are different and are typically customers of big 3 anyway. Crossshop all you want but chances are you already made your mind up before. Your head needs some justifications that either come up or made up to support your heart.
I don’t know about that.
My Sister-in-law has a 2002 Accord that she wants to get out of. She’s not only looking at the Accord, but she’s checking out a Milan and an Aura as well.
However, she will wait until the 2008 Accord rolls out before she makes up her mind.
Ironically based on the previous conversations here, she’s considering stepping up to an Acura TL because it is a fancier version of her Accord.
the only reason audi’s have soul is because they suck the soul from their owners a little at a time.
Just wanted to say that was some of the best writing I’ve read here. Great job on the article Sajeev.
> Life’s too short to drive boring cars.
Right on, Noley.
Unfortunately, there is not a single manufacturer at the moment offering a vehicle that combines quality/reliability, sexy good looks, and value (based on my personal standards for quality, sexiness, and value).
Everyone defines soul for a vehicle differently. For me, exterior styling is as important as drive feel and performance. While there are cars today that I consider to have soul, none are a good value. They’re too pricey (again, by my standards).
> I shopped a Frigidaire refrigerator but ended up
> going with a Whirpool because it just had more soul
Good example of someone who just doesn’t get it. My first apartment out of college had a white fridge with rounded corners. The manufacturer logo (Westinghouse, I think) appeared on some Flash Gordon-esque ornamentation on the door. That ornamentation was designed by an artist, not an engineer. That fridge had character; it wasn’t just a boring boxy appliance. It looked cool. It had soul.
The 40K Acura TL is the Type-S (286 HP and available in stick). It’s a blast. Is it as fun as an equally prices A4? Absolutely not…but it is quieter, more reliable, tons more comfortable, phenominal sound system, and, totally opion, looks better than the Audi A4. The base Acura TL (only $34K) is an amazing car for commuting, the type-S is for a bit more spunk, stiffer ride, etc.
Rottenbob: Have you tried the subaru legacy GT spec-B?
“The question is not whether Hondas have “soul,” but whether that soul speaks to you.”
MW has hit the nail on the head.
“The question is not whether Hondas have “soul,” but whether that soul speaks to you.”
MW has hit the nail on the head.
very true.
I have owned Hondas and Acuras in the past and have fond memories of that ownership experience. I have also owned BMWs and Mercedeses. I seem to go back and forth, in fact. In general, the Japanese excel at the “appliance car” approach. If you just want trouble-free, low-cost transportation, they do that job quite well. Some of their individual models even attain “fun-to-drive” status, although it seems to be an afterthought.
But I have never washed a Japanese car that impressed me with its build quality. And every German car I have washed, did.
Weird, huh?
I’m afraid, folks, that we’re comparing apples and giraffes here. Four cylinder Accords and Audis?
The LX Accord is a perfect example of the higher standard content trend in the auto industry. A car of its features and statistics, on paper, blows out any family car from the 1960s or 1970s in every category except [only sometimes] straight line acceleration. That’s why it is all the car so many people actually need, and that’s why its sales are so good. Not too many years ago 160 hp and 0-60 in 8 seconds was considered high end statistics (Mercedes 260E anyone?).
rottenbob:
Good example of someone who just doesn’t get it.
I get it, I just think that ‘soul’ is a comically exaggerated, over-emotional word to apply to a machine you enjoy using and to dismiss a competent car for lack of a soul seems ridiculous. But I agree that people should drive a car that they enjoy driving. Hope you find your soul mate;)
But what is Honda (and to a much greater extent Toyota)?
Honda’s site says, and I believe they truly mean these things:
…we are dedicated to supplying products of the highest quality at a reasonable price….
There’s little question that they do a good job with those.
(And for their price point, they make fun-to-drive cars, too.)
Furthermore, as a socially responsible corporate citizen, we strive to address important environmental and safety issues.
The enviornmental piece seems real, which is why their (less-toxic, water based?) paint and clearcoats suck. They try with safety: Witness my coupes’ standard 8 airbags; ABS w/ EBD; active (front) head restraints; and quick handling.
And, Honda says they want to …be recognized as a company that society wants to exist.
As to this last statement: Early in it’s history, Honda had to fight their government to survive (their goverment wanted Honda to merge with Nissan / Datsun). To this day, I believe Honda greatly values its independence, and has a desire to survive as a company that is not overly offensive to society.
Can’t speak to what “drives” (GM-wannabe) Toyota, though.
Honda is all about the discipline of engineering over marketing.
No argument here. They are an engine manufacturer run by engineers which, oh by the way, makes cars. To say marketing at Honda “needs work” is a fair observation. :-)
Michael Karesh:
January 26th, 2007 at 8:39 am
When I drove the just-freshened 2005 Nissan Altima back-to-back with an Accord a couple years ago, I noticed that the Accord interior contained considerably more hard plastic. And yet it still had a richer ambiance than the Altima, despite the many soft-touch bits Nissan added that year. I’ve always wondered how it could be.
There’s a difference between soft touch and squishy. Poke the dash of a Pontiac and your finger sinks in about a quarter inch into what feels like very old Jello. Hard plastic is not an issue as long as it’s well executed.
I regularly drive a V6 Accord LX and it is one of the most inobtrusive and friendliest cars I’ve ever driven. The throttle is a bit snappy, but the steering is still well weighted. I can’t say it’s exciting to drive, but I prefer it over the entirely antiseptic Camry.
Honda is all about the discipline of engineering over marketing. What their cars have in common is small, high-revving engines, precise shifters, light, limber handling, good ergonomics, decent fuel economy, and exceptional reliability. Whereas a lot of cars have flaws that grow more annoying over time, Hondas are all about delivering more than you expected. …The question is not whether Hondas have “soul,” but whether that soul speaks to you.
Nice job, MW. Great summary of what Hondas are all about. My vote for best post in this thread.
Its actually the reliable appliance that people gravitate to. Its only a matter of time. Wise folks do it straight away while others try later…
1. after driving rattle boxes which nickel and thousand dollar them to death after 4 years or
2. after driving expensive soulful machines that suck the soul out of their wallets (that electrical gremlin is a tricky one to diagnose and fix and at stealership prices – ouch)
Then there are the idiots who tire out of their appliances and return later with fond memories..
1. after driving rattle boxes which nickel and thousand dollar them to death after 4 years or
2. after driving expensive soulful machines that suck the soul out of their wallets (that electrical gremlin is a tricky one to diagnose and fix and at stealership prices – ouch)
To fight back the rattlebox makers devised a wise strategy.. They decided to fight 450k units per annum appliance with 3 150k rattleboxes…
result? guy who came up with that brilliant strategy gets a multimillion dollar parachute and is getting his soulful yacht ready to sail from west palm beach to the keyes.. and ofcourse those pesky deathwatch articles are side effects.
The soulful carmakers rolled up their sleeves and created even more soulful cars that cost two arms and legs to own and maintain.. instead of usual one arm and a leg… and oh they underestimated those electric gremlins. They are very tricky… did I mention the soulful prices of their stealersoulships?
Nice job, MW. Great summary of what Hondas are all about. My vote for best post in this thread.
Here’s a second vote.
I had two late 1980s Toyotas through high school and college. When I finally bought a Honda (92 Civic EX), I was expecting an driving experience similar to the Toyotas and was amazed at the difference. It was a four door with 4 wheel ABS disc brakes and VTEC engine, and power moonroof. That’s not a typo–1992. The handling was fun as hell–it stuck to the road like glue and had a great-sounding (albeit loud) engine. It was then that I “got it” and sent me on my way to become an enthusiast.
As a long time owner of Accord’s, 4 and counting at this point beginning with the first hatchback in 1977, I would suggest those of you who think of 4 cyl. Accord’s as boring haven’t spent much time hustling one down back roads. It is amazing what a smooth motor and transmission with a competent suspension can really do (I admit a 325 or a ’74 GTV – god why did sell that? – are a bit more sublime). A four cylinder Accord is as close to a no brainer purchase as there is, 200,000 miles without burping (been there, done that), rock solid resale, and a pleasurable drive. At $20k it remains the most effortless purchase one can make in automobiledom.
With Honda, it’s not about numbers. It’s about the whole consistently exceeding the sum of its parts.
Hondas have no soul? I find that notion quite troubling.
If Accords don’t feel special, it is indeed because everyone can get one. Very few people can’t afford to sign on the dotted line for one of these suckers, so they take on a bit of a generic feel.
The reason I feel that Hondas do in fact have soul is that this company pushes an inherently generic and bland segment just a bit towards the fun-to-drive side of things.
If you took a boring mid-sizer and gave it too-stiff suspension, fast steering, didn’t offer an automatic transmission and threw in Recaros, good luck in moving 400,000 of them. Joe Sixpack isn’t going to be interested in such a car. The rebates needed would make Rick Wagoner blush.
What’s remarkable about the Accord is that it’s so attainable, so generic, yet it’s willing to get out and dance if you grab its hand. I can’t imagine how many hours Honda engineers spent tuning a steering rack to be good at charging down the highway for hours on end, yet also have the ability to feed back precise information about what the front tires are up to when it’s chucked into a corner.
That’s Honda’s soul right there: making a car that’s inexpensive and dead-reliable, yet simple and timeless in design and willing to give the budget enthusiast a good time when called upon.
My dad has one of these things, and it’s absolutely benign in appearance and curb cachet. It’s grey inside, it’s grey outside and it wears hub caps; nobody notices it. But when he was out of the country and I had to move it from the L.A. basin up to Quartz Hill, I didn’t take the freeway, I hopped onto a road I usually reserve for my bike. The boring Accord put a smile on my face through the twisties, in spite of a slushbox and stock all-season Michelins. Not the stupid Kawasaki grin I normally get, but a grin no LaCrosse or Sonata could ever give me.
And Audi? Please. Leather-lined Volkswagens constructed of lead and depleted uranium with durability ratings necessitating J.D. Power’s adjustment of their chart multipliers.
-Drew
I saw this Accord next to an 02 or 03 Focus and found the similarities to be stunning. The profile is exactly the same and the headlights are extremely similar. Still, the Accord does have more going for it than the sum of its parts that commands a higher price, resale value for one. It is highly desireable in the reliable appliance segment. One of my friends who buys such products got hired at a big law firm making beaux coup bucks and still bought an Accord without even so much as test driving it or any other vehicle, despite my protestations.
the only reason audi’s have soul is because they suck the soul from their owners a little at a time.
Mwaha…funny.
Not true though, IMHO. The A4 was my driving lessons car (Europe, so 2+ years ago, when I was 19). There were 2 of them I regularly drove, a 1.9 TDI and…a 2.5 V6 TDI Avant. Even driving them cautiously most of the time (obviously) I enjoyed driving them and after getting my license and driving some other cars you really feel (literally, through the steering wheel) where your 1000s premium is going.
Shockingly though, I liked the 1.9 a little better than the 2.5. Although their was some turbo lag at low RPM, seats were nicer and I liked the 5 speed gearbox a lot more than the 6 speed of the 2.5…Maybe Audi has to ship some of their base trim equipped cars to the US?
I never have driven a Honda yet though. Really should start to drive more cars…
Engines, Honda is all about engines. Their engines so thoroughly dominated the Indy Racing League that they’ve become the sole engine provider across the IRL.
At the 2006 Indy 500,“33 starting drivers completed a total of 5,035 laps (12,587.5 miles) with complete engine reliability. Speedway records are not complete, but it is believed this is the first time in ‘500′ history that the race has run without a single engine problem.”
JJ:
I used to drive a ’92 Acura Integra. My brother has a 2004 A4, which I took out for a spin on a mountain road shortly after he bought it. The A4 was nice, but I remember distinctly liking my Integra better.
Despite being 12 years older, the Integra still shifted better, the clutch gave better feed-back (although being a cable operated performance clutch, was also way stiffer), the turn in was better, the car felt less ponderous and generally more willing to be thrown around, and the steering felt more direct and less numb. And the engine was far more willing. Sure, the A4’s engine is very nice… But the Honda just felt more willing. That Honda engine note at WOT near the red-line was addictive.
Did I like the A4 as a day-to-day driver. Yep. But I distinctly remember thinking that I liked my Integra better as a sporty car.
It was sort of like the difference between driving a go-cart vs a regular car. The Integra wasn’t much, but it was cheap (bought it for $6k in ’99), didn’t cost much to keep on the road, and brought lots of grins to my face. I still miss it.
JJ:
you really feel (literally, through the steering wheel) where your 1000s premium is going.
curious, all I’ve felt through the steering wheel of my audi are the control arms and wheel bearings failing ;)
z31:
all I’ve felt through the steering wheel of my audi are the control arms and wheel bearings failing
Ha! Ain’t that the truth. Although I love driving my A4, it has not filled the void that was left when I said goodbye to my ’92 Accord.
“Did I like the A4 as a day-to-day driver. Yep. But I distinctly remember thinking that I liked my Integra better as a sporty car.”
you’re comparing a 2 door coupe (integra) with a sedan (A4). of course you’re going to think the integra is a more sporty car. that’s like saying “i liked the crown vic as a daily driver, yes, but the land cruiser just felt like a better off-roading machine.”
Great read – and spot on. Although I have the antithesis of a Honda right now, I had one before this car, and my guess is, I’ll have another one soon.
I think the sweet Accord is a 5 speed 4 cylinder. Don’t get me wrong, I just drove a 6 speed V6 sedan a month ago or so (what a sleeper!), but I’ve owned that same 2.4 liter, and with the stick, for way less than 20K, it’s a lot of goodness for the money.
And what about that 4 cylinder exhaust note? A little raspy – very spunky and pleasing for this class.
And I don’t know how it exactly compares to LX, EX, etc, but Honda does so many special packages late in a model cycle, you can get quite a bit of content for little cash – no need to skimp on plastic wheel covers or drum brakes right now.
I own 2 Accords, a 2002 LX V6 and a 2003 LX V6. The 03 is basically the current vehicle, although the newer models think look a little better because of sheetmetal changes. I love the cars. The 03 has a 240hp motor and is faster than the 02, but the 02, which is the previous model, has a nicer cabin with better visibility and better located switches.
They are great cars. For what they are. They are not unique statements, like Bentley coupes, but they only cost $40K for the pair. Of course a Pontiac Aztec would be unique also. Besides, we can’t all be unique. Somebody has to be vanilla.
They are not sports sedans. No front driver will ever be that great a road car. The Accords are as good as front drivers get, but they react poorly if floored when at a stop and not fun when steering on bad pavement or accelerating in a turn. OTOH, Front drive allows for lots of interior room and does very well in bad weather.
My life has lots of bad weather and little driving out side of cities and interstates, so front drive is not a problem. I am not a boy racer, nor do I live where there any twisty mountain roads. So rear drive would not be that helpful to me. YMMV. (4 or all wheel drive is not necessary to me and would represent a penalty in weight and fuel consumption).
And yes, resale value is meaningful to me.
Cars are trade offs. None of them can be all things to all people. The Accord is a wonderful vehicle for a lot of middle class suburbanites in the US and they reward Honda commensurately. My next car will probably be a Honda as well.
audimination:
I agree if you about the coupe vs sedan thing. But both cars are considered “sporty” cars. Acura also made a 4 door version of the Integra. Besides, I was referring to the way they drove, not to the image or segment that they cater to. I think your comparison would be more valid if I was trying to compare the A4 to a Porsche or an NSX.
Perhaps I should have said “I still like my Integra better”.
Anyway, we are straying off topic.
I’m curious to learn more about why Honda doesn’t sell like mad in Europe–a market where the average price of a car is much higher, and where cars are kept for longer periods of time. Sounds like the absolute perfect market for them.
Europe=lower total miles driven+higher replacement frequency+half diesel+loyalty to domestic makers+higher trimmed vehicles generally
Despite this review, an Accord is boring as all get out. Europe pays more for personal transport. vehicles and demands more.
Rear drums? What’s up, Honda?
I’ll stick with the Fusion, thank you.
Having spent a few years working with Honda engineers, I no longer consider buying an Accord to be as wise a decision as I once did. I mean, I’m glad people buy them – it pays my bills – but I think to some extent Honda’s current vehicles don’t live up to their past reputation.
My largest complaint is that their engineers have gone beyond making a high-quality reliable vehicle, and become absolutely obsessed with the smallest irrelevant details – to the point where they miss the more important problems. I remember one particular conversation recently where we spent several hours discussing a part that made a ‘click’ when activated. The particular solenoid I’m talking about is only activated when the engine is running and the car is being driven down the road, and is outside of the passenger compartment…and we were sitting in one of our sound test chambers trying to determine if we could hear it or not. So, while there were other (more important) problems to deal with, we had a group of engineers sitting in a completely silent room trying to determine if you could hear this solenoid from 6 inches away…a solenoid that no human on the planet would have been able to hear over the normal road & drivetrain noise once installed on the vehicle. I’m a bit obsessive-compulsive, and normally this is a good thing for an engineer…but these guys made me feel like the normal one in the group.
Another problem is that Honda constantly makes things more complicated than they need to be – where other automakers will use 30 parts in an assembly, Honda’s might have 75 or even 100 parts to perform the same function. This would be at least somewhat acceptable if Honda’s assembly was in some way better, but by and large most of these assemblies perform no better than their simpler counterpart. Not only does this introduce new failure modes, it also increases both the cost of the vehicle and the cost (and availability) of replacement parts. Both Honda’s general obsessive nature and their Rube Goldberg tendencies have gotten progressively worse in the past 5 years or so…to the point where I no longer recommend their products to friends.
A good example of this is a friend of mine who bought a new EX V6 Accord in 2005, and now has a little over 50,000 miles on it. So far they’ve had the power driver’s seat stop working, the O2 sensors had to be replaced, the stereo quit working, and their A/C died in the middle of August (which it took the Honda dealer over 3 weeks to fix). The seat and O2 sensors were replaced under warranty, but they had to pay to fix the stereo and A/C out of their own pocket. In my opinion, that’s an unacceptable number of problems for a new car – especially for a Honda. Heck, that’s more problems than the last 4 new ‘domestic’ cars I’ve bought combined. I hate to say bad things about the company that helps pay my bills, but if Honda’s going to start making more lemons it makes me reluctant to pay the premium they charge over the other brands. Not that I’m likely to buy an Accord anyway – my buying decisions are based almost entirely on the “fun to drive” quotient, and while Accords are pretty good for the class they certainly aren’t sports cars. If I ever decide to get married and have kids I suppose one would be an option, though I’d probably purchase something that was RWD or AWD instead…I’d have a tough time paying $20K or more for something with the driven wheels on the wrong end.
audimination:
you’re comparing a 2 door coupe (integra) with a sedan (A4).
In that case, I liked my 91 jetta w/ 190k on it far more than my 98 audi. The jetta had it’s problems too, but at least they were cheap problems. I never should’ve gotten rid of that car :(
I believe this Accord, as good as it is, would have tough competition had BMW and Audi would import simple models to the US.
Same as with small cars, selling A3 for upper 20’s can’t compete with 15’s to 18’s, and what about low model BMW 1 series, or 318?
I know what the problem is, Americans love power, but that’s what so weird about it, if we love power so much, how come most Camry and Accord purchased with inline 4?
GOOD–excellent even
>>I’ve had enough engineering education to understand the concept that two things cannot coexist in the same time – space continuum—at least until you get down to the sub atomic level. But then I found another loophole: a Honda Accord LX.
BAD
>>sleekosity
GOOD
>> the latest taillight redesign and the rocker panel’s negative area reduce visual heft like a GQ magazine cover artist photochopping Kate Winslet’s
BAD
>>stems.
Makes it sound like she’s growing on corn stalks or something
VERY GOOD
>>Activating the Accord’s turn signal stalk is like biting into a Lindt chocolate truffle.
It hurts me to hear bad things about Hondas. Michael Karesh, do you have anything to say about LK’s post about 4 north of here?
David: Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that all Hondas are bad…just that they might now make the occasional lemon. In my opinion, many people switched to the imports because they bought a lemon from the ‘big 3’ and swore they’d never go back…so I think Honda needs to go back to focusing on what’s important before they run into a similar problem. However, I’m not sure where disgruntled Honda owners would go…probably to Toyota. I also think the cheaper models are bound to be more reliable than the top-end version (like my friend’s EX V6) – because there are simply less things to go wrong.
In a bit of irony, the guy who owns the Accord previously owned a HUGELY-unreliable Jeep Cherokee…so as far as he’s concerned his Accord is still a big step forward. His Jeep required over $5,000 in repairs before he hit 60K miles, so compared to that he’s actually doing pretty good. The guy maintains his vehicles and doesn’t abuse them…so I’m not sure why he has such bad luck with them.
“However, I’m not sure where disgruntled Honda owners would go…probably to Toyota.”
Hopefully, for their sake they won’t. this is the first I hear of Honda having serious reliability issues, but Toyota’s been all over the news for the past year with its recalls and the sludge problem…
Maybe the domestics are going to pick up the slack? GM is expecting to make a profit in Q4 06…
Sajeev,
Would the 5 spd. manual tranny,overcome most of the 4cyl. engine limitations?
Thank You,
DT
Well this certainly has been an interesting conversation. Frankly I am a fan of Honda. For those comparing the Accord and A4, it really is apples and oranges. If you really want to compare models, it should be the tsx and the 4 cyl A4. While the TSX, and even more so the Civic Si, are more my speed and show off hondas distinct high revving engines and amazing fwd handling, what makes honda great in my opinion is that they inject some sporting intentions into all of their cars. I recently visited my parents back in NY over the holidays and really came to appreciate honda again. They own an 03 v6 camry and an 06 cr-v. While home, I drove both cars over the backroads near me (some great s curves). Honestly, the cr-v handled the curves better than the camry despite the high center of gravity. What is even more amazing is that the CR-V didn’t really feel appreciably slower than the camry either even though it gave up about 40 horsepower. The camry really felt like a refined version of a buick.
As far as europe, it is a whole different carscape. The euro brands have more offerings and are cheaper over there. Whereas the Japanese and American cars cost more. Also, the diesel engines seem to be more reliable.
But I like Kate Winslet’s stems…..
Did somebody just give realiability based on exactly one vehicle of each? :) That trend made me laugh.
NOTE: Welcome to the new site!
I’d like to thank the designers for their hard work and dedication, getting the new site ready in such a short time. Well done lads!
As for the finer points, fear not. As some of you will recall, we had plenty of “issues” with the last redesign which were eventually resolved to everyone’s satisfaction. Consider this a work in progress.
I’ll be putting up a “Housekeeping” post tomorrow so you can give me all your feedback and suggestions. Onwards and upwards!
Automotive journalists (including the freelancers) seem to have one thing in common. They adulate and heap tons of praises on BMW 3 series and all of them pan Camry for being the dullest and most boring automobile. Ironically, many articles have been written with almost some sort of zeal to promote any vehicle over camcords including altimas.
However, there seems to be a great deal of disconnect between car buying public who vote with their wallets to prove these journalists wrong. Time and again, these articles have not been able to deter customers from flocking into toyonda showrooms. I wonder why… Its also amusing that some journalists though they show disdain, have some respect for camcords only because of their popularity. So, they leave a line or two to give a credit here and there so that they dont piss off major public.
What is even more interesting that all the car guys (except car guys who put emphasis on ride quality/comfort/luxury) are keen on horsepower and handling. Judging by the number of websites, autorags with porsche, mustang and corvettes on their covers in past several years, I am surprised that they dont sell that well. See its almost like auto journalists are catering to a small minority of public and then there is this vast car buying public which doesnt get swayed one way or the other.
Rankings in comparos be damned. How many times camry came last but still is the sales champ. Accord has been put on the pedestal by some but it failed to dethrone camry. There is now almost a sense of backlash from car buying public who do not give a fig about what these autorags their esteemed journos have to say. Nor these idiots who are obsessed with horsepower and proclaiming camcords as boring mobiles on internet forums have failed to make any impact.
G6, malibu, L-series, aura, impala, lacrosse, grandprix, fusion, five hundred, charger, stratus, sebring all have failed to have impact on sales on camcordimas even at one point in time or other they were praised for not being appliances. My advice for the handling, corner carving, bimmer loving journos is to get real and get with the program. Give credit where it is due.
Folks care about reliability, comfort, resale over bone jarring suspensions, horsepower etc.. If camry suspension is cushy, call it as it is..a comfortable cruiser which absorbs bumps while not letting in outside noise into the cabin. Not as a sterile toaster which cannot do canyon carving. BTW, what is canyon carving anyway.. where do these journos live? dont they have road irregularities where they reside. Are they living in some sort of autopia where roads are glass smooth?
Anyways, point is that quit calling camcords as boring and underpowered. A v6 is not necessarily a good thing. Not everybody wants a v6 which drinks more gas and is heavy out front. Also, not everybody wants to own a bimmer even if they can afford a 3er.
you’re comparing a 2 door coupe (integra) with a sedan (A4). of course you’re going to think the integra is a more sporty car.
Seriously? Sooo…driving a Toyota Solara will make me think it’s sportier than a 3-series sedan? “Well, it’s a 2 door coupe”…
Huh?
The Integra is sportier. It’s lighter, it handles and steers better. Assuming that when a car gives an overall better feel of connectedness to the road, it is indeed sportier–not because it has 2 doors.
Rear drums? What’s up, Honda?
No kidding. But that’s why you go with the EX.
Seth,
Of course auto journalists are going to like the cars that accelerate quickly and handle well more than the appliance mobiles. But we are writing for car enthusiasts, not for my brother or my best friend, who want something that’s comfortable and reliable. (My brother and his wife have two passats, my best friend and his wife have a Corolla and a Camry.) I certainly respect the CamCords for their reliability, and in fact, I own an Accord, and I like it. But I’d definitely rather be driving a Boxster.
# mfaulkner:
But I like Kate Winslet’s stems…..
I didn’t mean to imply that I didn’t. In fact, I certainly do. Very much. But stems–those things on plants–just aren’t sexy to me.
The Accord is an appliance but most people want just that, to get from point A to B, reliable, safe, and doesn’t depreciate off the map. So, they can spend money on other more important things, like a house, kids education, and vacations.
Insult Honda and Toyota for producing boring appliances but that is what the majority wants and they are laughing all the way to the bank.
Least you forget Honda produces the NSX, inwhich the next generation will have the F1 based V-10!
audimination: But what is Honda (and to a much greater extent Toyota)? What are they supposed to represent? Just plain reliability?
Honda represents quality as exemplified by exceptional reliability, longevity, and high gas mileage for the weight and power, coupled with a reasonable measure of fun-to-drive.
I’ve owned several European cars over the years (first generation Passat, RWD and FWD Volvos) and I now have both an Accord and a TSX in the family. I don’t understand the comments about these cars “lacking soul”. The combination of ride and handling, biased more towards handling on the TSX and ride for the Accord, blows away the FWD european competition. The greatly reduced hassle and cost factor thanks to better reliability and a more customer centric company has won me over as well.
Drive a Volvo S60 and an Accord V-6 back to back and then just try to come up with a really good reason for buying the Volvo. I did so, and even having been a three time Volvo buyer I couldn’t make it make sense.
Finally, none of the popular mid-sized cars are anything special styling wise. The demands of packaging, aerodynamics and crash protection are pushing all cars in this class into similar solutions.
Some complain about the Honda and Acura interiors being plane. Perhaps it is my euro-car buying background, but I like simple and functional instead of trendy. I seriously considered the Mazda 6 when shopping, but I could not get past the cartoon character feel of the interior.
It will be interesting to see what the new 2008 Accord is like. The 2007 reviewed here is the end-of-the-line for the 2003-2007 generation US Accord. Now let us see Ford do a complete remake of the Fusion for it’s sixth model year … and keep the same name!
I have always been partial to the “clean” look of the current generation Accord compared to other cars in its class. An earlier poster said he would prefer a Boxster. I would also but when I looked up published specs on the two cars (no direct comparisons that I could find since they are two different classes of cars) I was somewhat taken aback at how well the numbers on the Accord were.
Here is what I found (Boxster numbers first). Boxster vs. V6 Accord
O-60 mph 5.9/6.0
1/4 mile 14.6/14.5
60-0 mph 115/127
200ft skidpad 0.9g/0.86g
Appox. $ with leather $48,000/$30,000
I realize this is an accountant’s approach to the issue but I believe that in the hands of a competent driver a V6 Accord would compare favorably if pitted against many higher priced sports sedans on the track.
I know there are auto enthusiasts here, but I don’t know how many are into hot rodding their cars. Two of the nicest modified cars I’ve ever driven were a 2000 Honda Accord coupe with the 2.4 liter, 4 cylinder engine and five speed manual transmission out of a Honda Prelude and a 2003 Honda Accord coupe with the 3.2 liter V6 out of an Acura TL.
The four cylinder car was tuned to put out 220HP. About 200 LBS was taken out of the car by using lighter fenders and hood, lighter wheels and removing some sound insulation. The battery was relocated to the trunk. This was not a “Fast and Furious” type of car, but a very surprising performer that handled VERY well for a front driver while still maintaining the excellent Accord interior and fantastic fuel economy (24 MPG all around on premium fuel) in a car with better performance than the V6 version of the car.
One of the reasons that Hondas will become a mainstay on the US automotive landscape for years to come is that these cars are easily modified to any level of performance you desire. Any Honda engine will fit in any Honda car. These cars are today’s “’57 Chevy”. Those that question Honda’s soul might want to consider the importance of this.
rotten bob says:
“That ornamentation was designed by an artist, not an engineer. That fridge had character; it wasn’t just a boring boxy appliance. It looked cool. It had soul. ”
I disagree – really beautiful form follows function. Things designed by engineers are often the most beautiful.
Consider the P51 Mustang. Many people (including myself) consider it attractive, a design with “soul”. Yet the P51 was designed completely by engineers – not artists – and the design criteria were all functional, good looks are no help in aerial combat.
I consider the most hideous designs to by those with too much inputs for decoration sake. When I see a Chevy Tahoe with 24 wheels I see the off-road capability of a Mazda Miata with the handling of, well, an SUV with 80lb wheels. Such a vehicle is superficial and has no real soul.
Looking at Honda I see good and bad. The Accord is functional and attractive. I hate the Civic though – the over-sloped windshield and silly dash contradict the Honda legacy.
Oh yeah one more thing: must disclose I am an engineer
I hate the Civic though – the over-sloped windshield and silly dash contradict the Honda legacy.
You must’ve forgotten the ’92 to ’96 Honda Prelude then.
Talk about a dash design. Remember, the speed readout is in the center of the dash while the tach is in front of the driver.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=014&category=6259&sspagename=WDVW&viewitem=&item=330079416638&rd=1#ebayphotohosting
Hello there!
I apologize for not being here to converse/sabre rattle with you all real time, but I’m going to to my best to answer some questions/comments. If I overlooked something, please re-ask the question and I’d be happy to comment.
Allthough all the magazines describe it as a very good car though, it isn’t nearly as popular as it is in the US
JJ: The Euro Accord is too small for our mainstream family car needs. Or at least we think that.
I did find the ride harsher and noisier than is implied here, but then I drove the V6, which I believe has a firmer suspension.
Michael Karesh: the V6 has a firmer suspension, faster steering and bigger wheels. Comparatively, the I-4’s tuning is a surprisingly nice blend of cushy and road-hugging mannerisms.
According to TTAC’s policy to call out cars with “hard plastic – model airplane material” this Accord would definitely fall under that category….
1984: The Accord’s interior is miles ahead of many cars I’ve tested, i.e. the Impala. Even the Saturn Aura is a little behind. Materials are similar to a Fusion (for the most part) but the Accord is a more integrated design with a few nice touches like the liquid smooth storage nook under the stereo and cloth covered door armrests. They look more expensive than the Fusion.
I regularly turn on the brights accidentally when activating the turn signal. I was wondering if you noticed anything like that. I couldn’t quite tell by your similie because I never thought Lindt choclates were very good, but I’m sure some people do.
Cowbell: Oh my goodness! Lindt chocolates are delicious! Anyway, I didn’t encounter that problem, but I haven’t driven an Accord as frequently as you have.
Come on Sajeev, you did a great job measuring this mid-level Accord according to it’s price point for 3/4 of the article, but what happened at the end? You surely know that there is a V6 LX and a V6 EX model will all the goods if you are willing to pay.
Rodster: check the MSRPs. A V6 LX is $25k. That’s without leather, moonroof, etc. That’s a lot of money for a mundane family sedan that’s lacking a lot of luxuries. I hope you see the wide gap in price and content between a V6 Accord and a V6 Fusion.
Considering the $20K price, the LX model has the market cornered for a FOUR CYLINDER mid-size.
Rodster: Exactly! If Ford didn’t offer 50-ish more horses, two extra cylinders, one extra forward gear, four-wheel discs, etc. for the same price (or less) in a Fusion SE, I’d be way off base for mentioning the disconnect between V6 and I-4 Accords.
Buddy, I think you’re writing is generally fantastic, but you just lost a little cred with a crazy statement like that. This design is by far the most disjointed and design-deprived Accord ever…and they are still better looking than a Camry.
Blue Adidas: You know the Camry is a strange looking ride and the Fusion is a little blingy up front. OTOH, the Accord is the most refined, cleanest design in its class. Granted its never gonna be a chick magnet, but it does understatement for $18k just as well as the DB9 does for $170k.
Geez, don’t take things so literally. I know which car is the babe magnet and which one hauls around your 2.5 kids. :-)
I can’t believe you even compared it to a Hyundai Sonata. At least in an Accord no one makes fun of you and it’s not an embarrassement. The sonata reeks of cheapness and screams ‘low class’.
Tracy: friends of mine who cross-shop Camrys and Accords actually found the Sonata appealing. Considering the lo-po V6, crazy standard safety features and the respectable redesign, its no surprise why they looked at it. FWIW, these people scoffed the notion of buying a Ford (Fusion) but didn’t even flinch at the thought of a Hyundai.
The Sonata is an excellent value proposition. Not only that, you can have a smooth, lo-po V6 for the price of a I-4.
[about the DB9 analogy]Can I have some of what you’re smoking?
Audimination: again, not a literal comparison. Why is it not cool to compare two understated cars that work their respective mojo at completely different price points? Can’t they all just get along?
Minor nit: It’s competition from Mexico (fusion) and Alabama (sonata).
nweaver: ooooooh boy, I don’t wanna open up that can ‘o worms. But you have a point about a car’s assembly line location. That’s a big deal for a lot of people and you have to respect that.
Just wanted to say that was some of the best writing I’ve read here. Great job on the article Sajeev.
dolo54: Wow, thank you very much.
Would the 5 spd. manual tranny,overcome most of the 4cyl. engine limitations?
DT: It would certainly put more power down, but I-4s are still unrefined compared to a low-output V6. The question I want you to think about is which powertrain would you rather have for $20k-23k in your daily driver?
If camry suspension is cushy, call it as it is..a comfortable cruiser which absorbs bumps while not letting in outside noise into the cabin.
Seth: The Camry LE is cushy and unwieldy. The Accord LX is cushy and sticks to the road. People buy the Camry for many reasons, but the ride/handling trade off simply does NOT exist.
Can’t speak for anyone else, but I’m certainly gonna continue to “pan” the Camry for not doing their homework on the chassis.
I think this is a very good review and rightfully exposes the Accord as greater than the sum of its parts, or if you prefer, better than its measurables imply. As mentionned earlier, the devil is in the details and Honda has got the details down pat – the end result is many of their products (not all of course) end up offering an excellent, total package. Of course judging by individual specs the Accord doesn’t blow anything out of the water, but that’s not the point: I believe it offers the best overall package.
I find the plethora of whining about lack of soul absolutely ridiculous. Yup the Accord is a plain girl, but she sure isn’t ugly (like a Sebring or Camry), and she’s got a better personality than anyone else. Might not matter much for a fling, but we all know these cars are either going to be daily drivers next to a track/weekend/garage queen car, or just regular family haulers. NO midsize car out there has much soul; and if that really mattered in the segment, the car with the most of it (Mazda6) wouldn’t be such a slow seller.
Great review. As an owner of a 3 year old I-4 LX, I would make the following points, which probably didn’t make it into the 800 word limit.
1. The steering is nicely weighted and gives great feedback of road surface
2. I got the 5MT, and I have to say that Honda gearboxes are about as nice as they come
3. Mileage has always been 30 MPG, no matter the weather or traffic
4. The ride is a bit more harsh than I’d like, and the proprietary radio design makes upgrades difficult and expensive.
5. I can’t defend the Accord’s exterior, especially in gray, except to say that I’ve never gotten a second look from state troopers.
6. I paid 16.6 in the US, which equates to about $200 a month, depending on how long I keep it. That is a true bargain for a safe, reliable car that seats 4-5 comfortably and is fun to drive
As far as competitors, I never considered the Camry or Sonata. I looked at the Altima, but the interior was cheappo 3 years ago. I know Nissan has improved it since then. I looked at the Mazda6, and loved the driving sensations, but was concerned about the small back seat and resale value. The Passat was nice, but I preferred the Accord’s gearbox and steering feel, and the way all the controls fall to hand so easily.
If I hadn’t gotten the Accord, I would have bought a 4-5 year old 530i. But they are hard to find in the US with a stick and I was concerned that repair costs might get out of hand.
A comment on the “all Hondas are appliances” opinions. I just ask that you drive a Honda with a stick before you launch the next manifesto. The soul certainly speaks to me, but perhaps I’m biased since my first car was an Integra.
Replying to noley:
Life’s too short to drive boring cars.
Don’t read the review of a $20k car then. Cars at this price range are inevitably boring. Just some are boring but refined, such as the Accord and Camry. Some are boring and crappy or wacky, such as the Taurus or Rabbit. Not sure about the Fusion, it does have the potential of belonging to the 1st camp—a good thing for Ford.
Sajeev –
Interesting how you affirm the visually obvious in such muted tones (that this car is as dull as a box of rocks) and yet can wax so poetic over the smooth dynamics of a vehicle’s glove box.
I must confess that I am not (nor ever have been) a fan of Honda’s aesthetic sense (their lawn equipment has more lines, grooves and depth than their vehicles). Quality throughout? Sure. Engineering prowess? Indeed. Soft padded dashboards? Ok – if that is a big deal to you. Silky smooth glove compartments? Not really a reason to choose one car over the next, but I’m still listening.
In the end however, if this “exercise in nondescription” and muzak on wheels pulls up beside a 2007 Charger, then all thoughts of glove boxes and technical aptitude vanish into vapor. (For me anyway) The Accord (and Camry and Sonata for that matter) is great for what it is – a transporation appliance. As many thousands require a rolling and reliable Maytag to get to work and the bowling league, the Accord will continue to sell well and add to Honda’s bottom line and reputation as a volume appliance builder.
I found this review slanted and twisted in places but I still love you my friend! Keep on stitching the Queen’s English!
Replying to Seth:
The soulful carmakers rolled up their sleeves and created even more soulful cars that cost two arms and legs to own and maintain.. instead of usual one arm and a leg… and oh they underestimated those electric gremlins. They are very tricky… did I mention the soulful prices of their stealersoulships?
Nice write up, Seth. The real point that I see is:
Each one of the 3412341234 piston heads out there simply wants to yell out “I am different and I know cars.” Thus, it must be terrible to say one of the top selling model is good. It is destined to be boring, to an appliance, since more than 300,000 are sold every year in the US.
So 99% of those 3412341234 piston heads would try to find something that rots at dealerships. Like the Passat, or even better—the Phaeton. By praising the sub-appliance grade junk (something needs to work to be qualified as an appliance) the general public simply don’t want, they can paint themselves as being different. Did I mention there are 3412341234 piston heads out there?
Jim H: I assume your comment was directed towards my earlier post about potential Accord reliability problems. If you read it again, you’ll discover that I was talking about trends within Honda that might lead towards increased reliability issues in the future – if Honda doesn’t take steps to address the problem. While I used one particular Honda as an example, my concerns are the result of my daily interactions with Honda engineers – not the result of that one specific vehicle. I thought I cleared that up with my second post, but perhaps not.
As I’ve mentioned before, I lead an engineering team at an auto supplier – and my team designs parts for Honda. As the leader, I’m usually the one negotiating with them on most issues…though if there are quality problems the responsible Quality Engineer is also involved. At the present time we are producing components for the current-gen Accord, Civic, and Acura TL – and my group is nearing the end of development for the ’08 Accord and ‘08.5 Pilot. So, I’m happy that there are so many Honda fans out there – it’s called job security. I was just pointing out some concerns I have relating to trends I’ve seen within Honda…and I’ve also mentioned them to a few folks within Honda, though since I indirectly work for them I had to use a fair amount of tact.
We just started getting our final production tooling for the ’08 Accord late last week, which is way behind schedule…and we still have to do tool maturation (getting layout data to do tooling changes, plus Honda requires capability data on the critical characteristics before each tool change). So the next couple weeks are going to be extremely hectic, and in a bit of irony I’ll have less time to post on here about Accord reliability because I’m going to have to focus on doing my part to make sure the next generation of Accord is reliable. Even if the next-gen Accord does end up being less reliable, I’m going to make darn sure that the subcomponents we designed and supply aren’t the reason.
Silky smooth glove compartments? Not really a reason to choose one car over the next, but I’m still listening.
Now CarNut, if I spent 800 words waxing on about the glovebox you’d have a good reason to call me out. But you can’t (ok, shouldn’t?) distill my work down to one sentence. Nor can you say the Accord LX doesn’t have a lot of nice interior goodies for $21k.
Oh, and about the used Audi A4 arguement: I doubt anyone interested in putting their family a low to mid-level Camry/Accord/Sonata/Fusion cares about how boring plastic wheelcaps make a car, much less appreciate the fine chassis dynamics and interior appointments of an A4. Seriously.
As a person who has been down the path of a v6 domestic (GM) a better value than an I4 import, I can say that I made a mistake. I notice this fusion v6 comparison to I4 accord in Sajeev’s review and following posts. I can tell you that from experience, If I had to do it all over again, it’d be I4 import (be it camry or accord).
Ha… From reading all your posts, “soul” is apparently the intangible expression of whatever *you* feel is the most important characteristic in a car – hot looks, heritage, reliability, or driving dynamics.
In music, “soul” could loosely be defined as “a gritty variation from precision that reflects strong character, authenticity, and uniqeuness.” A drum machine has perfect time, but it seldom has any “soul.” Perhaps theirs an equivelant for cars?
LK wrote:
Even if the next-gen Accord does end up being less reliable, I’m going to make darn sure that the subcomponents we designed and supply aren’t the reason.
I always wondered how Japanese transplants avoid sabotage by anti-import/pro-2.5 US workers of either the transplants or suppliers. In the above case LK can easily create a batch of accord lemons if he wants to and by judging by his posts, he has no love lost for Honda.
Seth,
Well said.
It seems those U.S. workers arn’t satisfied destroying the big 2.5, they won’t quit until every foreign maker is reduced to “Built Ford Tough.” Maybe a quick reminder of Indian and Chinese supplier salaries are in order?
Seth – what did I write that gave you the impression that I don’t like Honda? Heck, I’ve owned Hondas…I just said that I probably wasn’t the target market for an Accord, because at that price I’d rather have RWD or AWD. I’ve also mentioned in other threads that I’m looking at either a Mazdaspeed 6 or WRX for my next commuter car, so I’m definitely not biased against imports. Personally, I think criticism of an automaker is a good thing…if nobody tells them their opinions, how do they know what to work on and improve? If everyone keeps buying Hondas no matter what problems they may have, eventually they’ll think they can do no wrong and will gradually turn into GM.
My personal rule of thumb is that I’ll tolerate one trip to the dealer during the warranty period on a new car – if it needs to go to the dealer twice, I switch to another brand. And, I make sure to let both the dealership and the automaker know why I’m switching, through owner surveys and phone calls. As the saying goes, the squeaky wheel gets the grease…and if you don’t bother to complain, the problem might not get fixed.
brokenvw: If you want to blame someone for the downfall of the ‘big 2.5’, you can blame either management or the UAW – but there’s little doubt that “U.S. workers” in general are among the best in the world. They may be led by poor management, or represented by a corrupt union that feeds them lies…but the people themselves aren’t the problem.
I’m not sure where your negativity comes from, but trust me – consider yourself lucky if your vehicle uses parts that were supplied by my company, as we are the best in the world at what we do. I’m not just saying that because of pride…according to the numbers, we have less rejections and problems than any company in the world that makes a similar product. And yes, that includes Honda’s own suppliers within Japan.
BTW, some of our subcomponents come from China…and trust me, you would *not* want to buy a vehicle that was either built in China or made out of parts from Chinese suppliers. The parts they supply us are very simple, and we still had to hire a bunch of SQEs (supplier quality engineers) to stay at the plants in China full-time in order to ensure that we get somewhat-decent parts. Even with that, our best Chinese supplier still has a rejection rate 50 times worse than our *worst* supplier in the United States. The only reason we use them at all is because the beancounters switch to them to cut costs…often without even telling the engineers.
Ok pardon my ignorance LK. One other question.. If one supplier is supplying say Ford and Honda, How does either manage to keep their progress in technology from other? It seems like Delphi can take Toyota’s R&D results and give it to GM and GM can stand the gains without much effort…
Funny people call Hondas boring… Well, it’s kinda true… It is almost never pulse-quickening, but to me, it’s the car I always find myself being happy to come back to. (I own an ’03 CR-V, before that an ’01 Civic). It usually in the details (ergonomics, etc…)
I have driven many cars other than my own (in different price ranges), and the funny thing is, they almost never feel quite right compared to my Honda (even though I won’t say it’s perfect). It just does everything well, even if it’s not the best at everything. Drives well, it’s comfortable (even after hours of driving), it handles well, and it’s BORINGLY reliable.
For the grand passion and excitement, you may have to go somewhere else, but if what you’re looking to be as close to the best balance as you can, in almost every segment Honda sells vehicles in, it usually ranks at, or very close to the top. IMHO, that’s the key to their success: balance.
wsn:
Cars at this price range are inevitably boring. Just some are boring but refined, such as the Accord and Camry.
See my post re ’97 Nissan Maxima above.
Of the current crop, I’ve driven the Mazda 3 and 6 as well as the v6 Altima and all are a league above the Accord in terms of fun to drive and sacrifice little if anything in any other terms.
I just have to say that BMW, Mercedes and Audi badges don’t automatically make a car special. The current A4, for example, is just as soul-less as this accord. It has no stylistic connection to the 1st gen that I can discern. That being said, in ’02 I chose a TL-S over an S4. The S4 certainly had ‘soul’, but it also had an eyebrow-lifting maintenance schedule (those twin turbos demanded attention) and would have established an unfortunate connection between me and the jerks at the Audi dealerships (I went to several in the Bay Area and received rude treatment at each one). I briefly considered a BMW 330i, but again it seemed to me that a car with ‘character’ or ‘soul’ really meant a car that came from a dealership filled with jerks. Loved the car, but couldn’t see myself dealing with the sleazy BMW dealerships during its serviceable lifetime. Finally there was Mercedes – character there meant paying lots of money for an inferior product. The quality of the Mercedes offerings’ interiors in the sub $50k segment (or sub-$60k, for that matter) was laughable. The Acura may not have possess all of the engineering blunders characteristics of the German marques, but I enjoy knowing that for the money I got a car with a more powerful engine, a huge trunk, decent mileage (the 330’s mileage was also impressive), luxury accoutrements AND Honda quality.
I need to add that I’m not a German-marque hater. I think each German car company produces some thoroughly beautiful vehicles (with the exception of BMW, which once had an entire lineup of highly desirable sex-kittens, but has been reduced to a total of 3 graceful shapes in its portfolio: the formerly-hideous but thankfully ‘revised’ 7-series and the 3-series coupe and convertible).
I can’t believe we’re still discussing German marques in a thread about a $21k family sedan with plastic wheelcovers.
For some reason I doubt Audi or BMW would ever come up in a Fusion or Camry road test. Honda is obviously doing something right.
itsme:
I own a 2002 325i, which is a fairly good looking car. To me, the odd thing about the current 3 series sedan is that it’s beautifully sculpted and graceful, but almost too much so, that is, it’s too much like a piece of art on wheels. Another example of the very thin line between cars that one genuinely wants to be seen in, and those that one doesn’t. I bet the latest 3 series sedan is selling well, though.
nino: One of the reasons that Hondas will become a mainstay on the US automotive landscape for years to come is that these cars are easily modified to any level of performance you desire. Any Honda engine will fit in any Honda car. These cars are today’s “‘57 Chevy”. Those that question Honda’s soul might want to consider the importance of this.
The ’57 Chevy that my family of origin had when I was a little kid went down in family lore as a wonderful car, but looking back, it was a POS, clunky, no power, bad handling, unreliable after about 65-75k, on its way out after about 85k (we drove it to 102k, I saw it on the street a year and a half later w/ 106k). But maybe I’m missing your point here. Nonetheless, the family of origin chariot that my Accord reminds me of the most was the 1970 Valiant. That was a high quality piece of machinery.
Mr. Mehta: Nice review, but I believe an Accord with the 5-spd would change your tune a bit. It is a very silky smooth shifter, and a good reason for why so many (like myself) are entranced with Honda’s spell.
Now you couple this sweet shifter with the Accord i-VTEC 4 cylinder and grippy, strong-quiet-type tires (like Goodyear ComforTreds) and you have a match made in Heaven. As long as Honda builds 4 cylinder i-VTEC EX Accords with a shifter I will be more than happy to pay the Man his fair profit with cash (I don’t do car payments).
I drive my 4 cyl VTEC 2001 EX Accord (103k miles, just about ready for new timing belts) like a bat out of Hell and it just keeps on going and going and going with no breakdowns. (Seat belt sensing unit replaced under warranty at 100k, not really a breakdown.) Most remarkable car I have ever owned in this respect. The harder you try to flog it, the more it likes it. Only time it failed me was because of a dead 5 year old battery.
The Accords biggest weakness lies in its brake hardware; not heavy enough. Front disc rotor warpage. (You learn to do lots of down-shifting.) The 4 cyl EX Accord would be totally awesome with the V6’s brake hardware.
Still, it is the best performance value for the money. Two years ago I did my own 4 wheel brake job, total parts was under $100 (including premium ceramic pads in the front). Suppose you drive your 5-series just as hard as I drive my Accord; your 4 wheel brake job at the dealer starts at $3,000. You pay through the nose for your pretentiousness, I bank the difference in a ‘folio of dividend paying growth stocks. Advantage Accord.
allen: you might be right about the 5-speed changing the review’s tone. But I wanted to go the “family car” route, which usually demands an automatic. Imagine a pistonhead married to a slushbox driving wife (or husband, let’s not be sexist here) and 2.5 kids. Fun is fun, but he or she needs a 100% practical car for the family. And I think the majority of Accord LXs sold are of the automatic variety.
Slushbox or no, this is still a four-banger in a rather large sedan. Modern V6s are smoother, have a juicier powerband (similar displacements, naturally aspirated) and make a large car like the Accord feel more expensive and refined.
Dare I say it, the Accord LX has outgrown a four-cylinder motor. The EX is fine with the big V6, and the base model is good with a four. But the LX needs a 2.5-ish liter V6 (like the older Camrys or the Ford Contour) as a mid-level engine. It would really shine then.
The ‘57 Chevy that my family of origin had when I was a little kid went down in family lore as a wonderful car, but looking back, it was a POS, clunky, no power, bad handling, unreliable after about 65-75k, on its way out after about 85k (we drove it to 102k, I saw it on the street a year and a half later w/ 106k). But maybe I’m missing your point here. Nonetheless, the family of origin chariot that my Accord reminds me of the most was the 1970 Valiant. That was a high quality piece of machinery.
Well, my point was that like many of the old American cars, Accords will be looked back upon fondly, with the exception that old Accords will probably still be running around on the roads.
My other point was that Hondas are easily “hopped-up”. As such, many Honda models will be looked upon the same way as those old Chevys that many of us hopped-up as kids. This will ingrain Honda in the American psyche in a way that no advertising can.
Well, my point was that like many of the old American cars, Accords will be looked back upon fondly, with the exception that old Accords will probably still be running around on the roads.
Quite possible. Even though I’ve never had one, I always liked the 1980s model with the covered headlights and disc wheels. That’s a ballsy design for a family car.
The Integra and CRX are bound to reach collectable status, considering its cult following and aftermarket potential.
Silky smooth glove compartments? Not really a reason to choose one car over the next, but I’m still listening.
I rented a White Grand Marquis (White Lightning) a week ago. Whenever I opened the glove box it would immediately snap shut. It’s almost as if the car was working against me the whole time. There were no steering wheel mounted audio controls either so I had to practically get up out of my seat to adjust the radio which was seemingly 3 feet away. Not really but you get the idea.
I like the Vic and the Marquis but I would never buy one for these reasons (and others).
Oh that room to move around you mention, that is why I want to trade my Honda Accord for a Lincoln Town Car.
I almost spit coffee out my nose when I read, “….I had to practically get up out of my seat to adjust the radio….”
Yeah, I wouldn’t mind a Town Car either. There’s something to be said for a big American sled. Even though the Merc had so much room the dash juts out so much so that I hit my right knee (hard) on the corner of the dash about 3 times before I figured out how to slither in. And I’m not a big guy, either. Weird.
Referring to ergonomics above and the article about seat rails at Ford – I have a ’93 Civic and I drove an Acura Legend from about that product cycle and they both had identical steering column/turn signal, quality plastics, tactile pleasing movement of the levers, save the OEM leather cover on the Legend steering wheel. It says a lot that Honda’s bottom passenger car and top passenger car would share such components. I assume they used one steering cockpit for their entire line during this time. Brilliant.
“Activating the Accord’s turn signal stalk is like biting into a Lindt chocolate truffle. The glove box and lower dash storage binnacle doors open with all the graceful, elegant motion of a sunflower blooming in a time lapse movie.”
Mmmmmm…… Yes that is Honda, and its only the turn signal stalk. That is the very same thought I had when first energizing the turn signal in my ’89 Prelude, 89 Accord, and in my wife’s 91 Accord. And the turn signal stalks still all feel that good with 246K miles, 264K miles, and 340K miles respectively.
LK: I believe you are a sub component contractor for honda motor cars… Thank you for your contribution, making these cars the fine “boring” dependable, as close to perfect as I have seen, fun to drive, logically designed, unmatched if reliability for the price, greatest looking, autos I have owned.
bye all.
It’s tough to have a decent conversation when I’m off the site for 10+ days at a time. Even though nobody will read it, I might as well respond.
Seth: You bring up an interesting question. Some of the automakers do not reimburse us for our research, so any advance we may make during the development of their product is one that we will use for all future products (if applicable). If we are reimbursed for our engineering time, usually the contract with the OEM stipulates what is done in that situation – generally we still preserve the right to use it in future products, but after a certain period of time.
However, with that said there really isn’t much overlap – we generally can’t share much between Honda/Toyota designs and Ford/GM/DCX designs because the Honda/Toyota designs cost too much and the ‘big 2.5’ aren’t willing to pay enough to get the benefit of that technology. The number one thing with Honda is the function of the assembly, whereas the number one thing with the domestics is cost…and it is rare to find something that both functions better and is cheaper to produce. All the automakers claim to be concerned about quality, but in reality the domestics are willing to sacrifice quality for lower cost – while they never openly say that, it’s pretty obvious in how they act.
So, there isn’t much danger of GM wanting to copy a Honda Accord part to put in a Malibu – because they’ll only pay half as much as Honda for the same part, and for that price they get something less complicated made out of cheaper materials. In a bit of irony, the Ford/GM assemblies we produce are likely to use more imported subcomponents – because we can’t afford to buy parts in the U.S. and meet their pricing. However, the Honda assemblies use more American subcomponents…because they’re willing to pay for them. Of the parts we produce, the average Honda actually has more domestic content than the average GM product. On a GM/Ford/DCX assembly, most of the tooling is made in Korea and a large percentage of the subcomponents are made in China. We usually have our Honda tooling done in the United States, which is *much* better from my point of view…it costs more, but you can work much more closely with the tool shop and you get a better finished product. On the Korean tools, we have the plastic parts shot over there and then shipped to the US to do layouts – and then we analyse the data and send instructions back to Korea on how to modify the tool. This is not a fast process, and often we end up rushing the tools into production before they’re fully matured (which causes quality issues).
Anyway, I’m rambling – and the only thing worse than writing a response nobody will read is writing a long-winded response nobody will read. From an engineering standpoint, I really quite like Honda – we get the freedom to think outside the box and come up with new designs, instead of being harnessed to a particular pricepoint like we are with the domestics. I got into the field because I enjoy engineering, and copying old designs is not what I want to do all day long. I’ve often wondered what a bunch of engineers would produce if allowed to do whatever they wanted…probably something like the Veyron.
“Activating the Accord’s turn signal stalk is like biting into a Lindt chocolate truffle. The glove box and lower dash storage binnacle doors open with all the graceful, elegant motion of a sunflower blooming in a time lapse movie.” yeah and every so often when I make a U-turn I accidently grab the turn stalk because it's too close behind the wheel. Another thing : one time I happened to have the seatbelt handle hanging out of the door when I closed it. Now the 04 accord LX door closes like one of these beaten up cars you see in the junkyards. The honda belt back pulling mechanism are weak and require the patience of assisting it by feeding it manually every time you get out of the car or alternatively throw it toward the passenger seat so it won't dangle out of the door (talking about cheap door hinges and poor door frame rigidity too). Open the trunk watch the paint in the canal near the plastic seal or close from soldering points peelling off like nailpolish. deftly close the superlight trunk of the accord and hear the sound of its vibrating unsupported frame. I bet you could put a twist in it barehanded. The interior is spacy which you'd think is great for a tall guy like me but the front seat are mediocre although there is worse. Radio buttons have disproportionely ugly sizes a huge volume button like these boom box you see at Wal-Mart and the programmed stations buttons are coupled in pairs with a bridge in the middle which makes ackward pressing down angles. My car also had one surprise for rainy days. A knocking windshield wipers. Ok this sofar is merely an introduction lets get to the most interesting part : driving it. But let me step back to the time I purchased the car and how I made that decision. I had just sold my 92 MAXIMA SE a blast of a car that had 185K miles. It had a few issues at that point and since I was moving I wanted to buy a transition car that I would not have to worry about for some time. They say you'll know how much you liked something when you don 't have it no more well it's true I realize now I had a lot of joy and simply everyday good feeling driving the MAX. I did not think long and got a honda based on reputation and the kind of comments you'll find on this thread. back to driving. Utilitarian drive is the best description. feels like a big boat with feet paddles. The automatic feels like a high-stall box, in first gear it will have the engine reving then engage so that you get quite a bit of torque on the wheels initially, feels like getting hit by a bat and then.. nothing. It's very annoying. There is a highway ramps where I live which goes up a bit. It's a struggle for the accord LX's 4 cylinder engine. You will have to force the automatic to 3rd gear max position to gain any acceleration at all because the automatic will persist stalling the engine in 4th gear. I get trucks in my back. From 30mph to 60mph it reminds me of the city bus rides back when I was a student. Another aspect that reminds me of a bus is its suspension. If you have ever ridden a bus you know it will jiggle and joggle on tough roads and sometimes a big hit that you will feel in your spine. The accord LX reminds me of this a little. You get the punishment from a sport car with harsh suspensions without any of its precision, handling and fun of it. Road noise is as bad and noticeable as the ALTIMA (I don't know if they improved it in recent models). Audio system is cheapest material, but the $19K I payed could justify that but it can not the performance of this car. The other big thing I was counting on was fuel economy. It consistently does 21mpg whereas the sticker says 22 city 32 hwy. Have you ever not eaten the cake, not received it and payed for it ? This is what the honda accord is like and in saying so I absolutely disagree with the reviewer. I have come to think of my accord LX has something I need maintain so I will be able to sell it in a eyeblink and get a real car. There are times tough that I can not hold my despise of it more and I have sometimes given it back a taste of the punition it gave me for buying it. I looking to get into an Audi or infinity very soon. I forgot reliability, to be fair I had no problem with it except that its poor handling and its fake of a start have taken an early toll on the tires. Learned lesson : If you have tasted what a real car can do for you in everyday driving you can never go back down the likes of hondas and toyotas.
audimination
I understand you’re driving an RS4. I’d like to talk to you about it. I test-drove an S4 and while I tought it is a great car, handling felt a bit numb comparing to an 335i. I am very interested in the RS4 and would like to hear an owner talk about it. you can email me at nonesuchwhy at yahoo dot com.
thks.
I bought my Accord Se manual brand new last July for $19,800. I run plus gas, synthetic oil, and I avg 31 mpg in Houston mixed city/hwy traffic. I’m gonna drive this thing as long as it runs!