Does anyone other than a masochist enjoy buying a car? Any survey of loathsome experiences would rank car buying just below root canal surgery, slightly above cleaning hair out of the shower drain. I have yet to hear an adult say “I need a new car,” without dread and trepidation in their voice. So they turn to me, their local automotive alpha, for advice on makes, models, prices and features. Until recently, all my knowledge couldn’t protect them from the dreaded car dealer. Here’s what they faced…
They walked into the dealership, inhaling that heady blend of fear, desperation, and volatile organic compounds. Depending on how they were dressed, they were either A) ignored until they tried to break into a locked vehicle or B) forced to sit in front of a sadist sales manager who had to know how, when, where and with whom they drove. And then it was time for a little one-on-one with a sales prevention officer.
There were a lot of ways this went wrong. There are car salesmen who will only speak to a female customer’s boyfriend or husband, or vice versa. Salesmen whose definition of product knowledge includes improvisation, science fiction and outright lies. And self-righteous sales associates who think it’s acceptable to treat their customers with condescension, contempt and disdain.
Occasionally, my car shopping friends encountered a good car salesperson: someone who didn’t smell like he was one missed payment from foreclosure. The salesman knew exactly what he was selling, handed them the keys, shut up and let them drive. That said, the chances of encountering one of these rare birds was about the same as finding an Ecuadorian Pale-Headed Brush Finch snacking on french fries under the Big Chicken in Marietta, Georgia.
I always told my acolytes and referrals: if you don’t know anything, neither a listener nor an inquisitor be. Later, when these advice insensitive car buyers realized they’d been talked into a piece of junk– my strong-willed sister’s adoption of a Suzuki Verona springs to mind– they only had themselves to blame. (As if.)
Anyway, once the test drive was over, the salesman sequestered them in the little room I call AHA (Abandon All Hope). After proffering false interest in their well-being (must get fives on that CSI survey), the salesman wrote numbers on disposable sheets. The potential customers were interrogated until they revealed exactly how much money they were willing to “invest” per month on a new car, and whether or not they were willing to transfer Junior into Community College to cover any shortfall.
Ludicrous words were spoken. “This car won’t be here tomorrow,” and “This is a one-time deal only.” As deep-vein thrombosis set in, the salesman invoked the specter of cold-hearted sales managers and their own bare-footed children. The next thing they knew, my charges were either driving away in their old car, relieved at having escaped the lion’s den, or signing a sheaf of papers they were too tired to read. Either way, their underwear was in their pocket.
If they didn’t buy the car, they winced inwardly, knowing they had to lather, rinse and repeat until they encountered a salesman desperate enough not to stiff them.
Is it any wonder so many people I sent to dealerships threw in the towel and bought something, anything, just to stop the madness? Most consumers simply don’t have the time or stamina to physically explore their options. The salespeople know this. And once customers are on their turf, the dealer’s designate controls the tempo of battle. And prevails.
After a particularly gruesome negotiation session at one of Atlanta’s more notorious VW dealers, I saw the light. I surfed the Internet and requested price quotes online. A quick responder offered me invoice on my chosen mount. We negotiated back and forth over e-mail. A couple of days later, I walked away with the car I wanted for a fair price. I didn’t have to reveal my husband’s favorite sport or miss another episode of South Park. Bliss.
I realized that the $500 under invoice, no haggle, test drive, sign and go deal was the future.
So now, when friends and family ask me about a new car, I hit the net. I do 95% of the work for them: surfing for the right spec., price and dealer, and then showing them how to cut the deal before they darken the dealer’s door for the make-or-break test drive.
Clearly, the car sales paradigm is shifting. By the time I’m done with them, “my” people know exactly what they want and how to get it. Equally important, they know precisely what they don’t want: to waste their time battling with pushy, obnoxious salesmen. If car buyers can cut the traditional salesman out of the loop, why wouldn’t they? Thanks to me and I’m guessing you, now, they do.
Apple should get into selling cars, they convinced me to part with $3000 and feel good about it.
IF YOU WANT TO DO YOUR RESEARCH ON LINE ,GET 500 UNDERINVOIVE AND COME IN AND SIGN THATS FINE BUT DONT EXPECT TO THEN COME IN AND TEST DRIVE THE CAR. JUST COME IN AND SIGN.WHY SHOULD I SPEND ANYTIME WITH YOU SHOWING YOU THE CAR IF YOU DONT WANT ME TO MAKE MONEY.FUCK YOU
Want you to make money, get a clue pal. It’s not like consumers have an option in the United States. All new cars are sold by dealerships & at every dealership is a scumbag lying salesperson. If consumers had the choice of dealing with a dealership or ordering direct dealerships would get their butt kicked. I could understand your mentality if salespersons were down to earth but honestly they aren’t. Every chance they get they’re trying to pull the wool over your eyes. Here’s the funny thing if you just told the truth & didn’t think only about short term profits your line of work would be making tons of money & customers would keep coming back! Oh & Rick if you’d like further education on this subject matter you can locate it at the nearest brick wall! While you’re there try rubbing your two iq points together and see if you can start a fire.
One good experience in the AAH room – above the salesman’s desk was a newspaper clipping about his part-time stand up comedy career. I started questioning him about his material, hearing bits, making suggestions.
Okay, I probably still got beat, but there was a few laughs along the way.
The hands-down absolute worst dealer experience I ever had was at Northstar Dodge in San Antoino. We went there just to browse the minivans. Parking is practically nonexistent around the dealership, so they offer “valet parking” where one of the “lot boys” parks your car in a storage garage behind the dealership. The salesman wouldn’t accept the fact we were just looking – he was determined to make a sale. I was very polite at first, then finally asked for my car back when I realized he wasn’t going to listen to me. Then he started this “well, if you buy today…” crap and I firmly asked for the keys to my car back. They still refused and kept on the hard sales pitch (after all, they had my car hostage). I finally asked for the sales manager and told him he had 30 seconds to produce my car or I was calling the police and reporting it stolen. At first he thought I was kidding but realized I wasn’t when I picked up the telephone on his desk. They returned my car immediately and I never darkened their doorway again.
Great advise about getting on-line. Our last car purchase, a 2005 Honda Civic, was done similarly. We looked on-line to see what the invoice cost was, what people were paying on average in our area, what the trade-in value of the Metro was, what kind of payments to expect based on the trade in and down payment, etc. Each time they threw numbers up in front of us, we asked to be alone, talked among ourselves with the papers in hand, and then asked if we could think about it overnight and would be in when they opened in the morning. Then we “accidently” left the paperwork there. The next morning, as we entered the door, the salesman said that the numbers we were looking at for our payments were acceptable to them. We noticed the papers were moved and not in the same order as when we left them. If you go into a dealership armed to the teeth with printouts like we did, you’ll get what you want. Yes, it was a Honda delaership, but they were contaminated with Ford products as well and it showed in their salesmanship.
Actually it is against the law for them or anyone to do that. It is considered “false imprisonment” and is a kin to kidnapping. You should have called the police and told them you were being held hostage and pressed charges against the dealership. It may sound silly, but it is true.
The reason they do it is because once you leave the car lot, the chances for you buying from them goes down tremendously, so they do everything they can to keep you there. They try everything to keep in control, some foolishly even break the law. Staying in control of the customer is taught in the sales training of many dealer sales training programs. I know because I went through the sales course that many dealerships use!!!.
While I do buy almost everything over the internet, it doesn’t work for me with cars or motorcycles.
There always is a trade in because dealing with selling them privately is even worse then the typical buying experience, well worth it to pay a reasonable amount for the service.
PS, to Frank Williams, they tried kidnapping (carnapping?) my car once when I was much younger. Grab them by the neck and start squeezing. LOL.
Experiences with buying services:
– used autobytel once a decade ago, got a decent price but don’t remember the details
– used CheckBook CarBargains ($160 for members), fitzmall.com (fixed-price dealer) gave the best prices
– tried Costco’s car buying service last month which was $250 above invoice, but ended up buying a Saturday ad special for $600 below
Anyone have any other experiences, say, CarsDirect?
I’ve experienced the two extremes in the last two purchases: the local Subaru dealer is fantastic, the sales people terrific. I saw the ad that morning for their promo special, called up and asked if it was still available, and less than an hour later we were driving it home. No pressure for any extras, etc.
When I helped my son buy a new Focus, OMG, what a contrast. I had to turn on my 6’4″ pit-bull imitation – I “fired” the first two sales reps, made a deal ($11,000), refused to sit through the “finance manager’s spiel (he claimed he had to go through his list of optional warranties, undercoats, etc. “by law”. I made my poor son sit there with him for 45 minutes.
The funniest thing, when we walked out to my car, having made the deal, another manager ran after us like a pathetic junkie telling us he could get the car for us for only $11,400, if we would just stay and sign right now.
It was one of the most embarrassing, pathetic experiences in my life.
I once was a former Subaru salesman and I can tell you that the dealership I was employed at used every tactic to pressure and make the sale. As a sales staffer, I think we were just as screwed as the customers walking through the door. There is a huge amount of greed and pressure from managment and owners on the sales team. I am not making excuses for the tactics on the customer, I am just letting it be known that salesmen are pressured to make sales… period. The customer is just someone to squeeze the dollar from, (just wait till the finance department gets them after the sales guy closes; it never ends).
Watch the movie Glengarry, Glen Ross and the part where Alex Baldwin’s character comes in is how many managers treat thier sales staff. I feel auto sales is a greedy corrupt business, backed by the greedy corrupt politicians. That is probably why the new auto lending laws are going to exclude auto dealerships.
There needs to be a better way!
My buddies kid got a job selling Toyotas in Indianapolis after he got out of college. He was making good money but had to quit after about 6 months. Said his conscience was bothering him too much to sleep at night. He was amazed at the number of folks with already disastrous credit history who were somehow qualified for “deals”.
See my response in todays’ other editorial. It’s been 5 years since I’ve stepped into a dealership without the price already negotiated.
With all due respect to Rick (previous editorial), my most recent experience with buying a Honda was one of the most stressful experiences in my life, and I wasn’t even the person buying. If my friend had not needed a car by the end of the month, we would definitely not bought from there. The salesman made absolutely sure she left the dealership angry. When I was there to look over the car before the purchase, he didn’t even shake my hand. Outright lying about including floormats and a touch-up paint stick and then telling her to go to the parts counter to buy them (separately outside the order) after they took her deposit. Then when she picked up her car (which she paid full list price for), the dealership gave her a food gift basket containing food she was allergic to.
The first day it rained, she turned on the wipers and it broke off. When she brought it back, the salesman came running out and said he had checked it and it was fine. She must have tampered with it. At least the service department fixed it under warranty.
Hondas are selling well and the dealerships have become arrogant, much like the GM and Ford dealerships of the 80’s and 90’s. They won’t even arrange trades between dealerships. My friend would have went somewhere else, but this particular dealership was the only one that had the car she wanted in stock (silver Honda Fit w/Automatic).
My point? I don’t know. I just needed to vent.
“Any survey of loathsome experiences would rank car buying just below root canal surgery”
No way. Root canal was uncomfortable for a few minutes, but once the Dentist, who was very nice and numbed the tooth right away, was done, the toothache was gone and I felt good for the first time in a week.
I am still seething about some of my car buying experiences.
As a carsalesman I would rather have a root canal than have to wait on some of the customers I have.
This is how it should go.It should be done as they do in real-estate.Step one(before looking at any cars) should be to pull credit and see what cars you qualify for .Step 2 explain what cars they can buy and then,only then shoud the customer be allowed to see the cars. I so sick and tired of people who cant buy taking up my valuable time.Many times i will be assisting someone who cant buy and I lose a sale.
Another thing that blows my mind is why would you go looking for a used car with the intention of buying im 6 months.Every single used car on our lot will be gone in 45days again just wasting my time and taking money away from my family.Another thing i dont understand about people is when you ask them what type of vehicle are you looking for ?a car,truck,van,suv,sports car and they say i dont know/ill never understand that. Anyways if you want to be treated fairly then treat us with the same respect.
1) this is a business please dont come just to waste time because “my wifes at the mall and I have nothing to do”
2) Dont lie to me and tell me your not trading and the throw it in at the last minute doesnt change the price it just slows the whole process
3)if you know you have bad credit tell me up front.Your time is valuable too.I can tell you in 5 min. if you can buy or not once i pull your credit.I dont need the pratice of showing cars.
ok to re cap
good credit
money down
paid for trade
insurance card(current)
drivers license
a title for the trade
a check for the down payment
if you have bad credit
proof of residence
3 complete references name address phone
current pay stubs
1099 or tax returns (if self employed)
Megan, I like you.
The buying experience at a dealership is not about buying – it’s about who controls the relationship. Every dealer tactic that you can name is intended to control and defeat the buyer.
Once you understand that basic premise, it is MUCH easier to navigate those waters. I’m with Paul N – give them 5 minutes to go talk to the sales manager of the day and get rid of any flunkies that are wasting your time. Don’t give up your car keys. Don’t give them your drivers license. Don’t sit there until they tell you that you can get up and be aware of even little things, like where you are sitting. Don’t let them talk to you with ANY disrespect, cut them off as soon as they start and call all BS as you see it. You’re not there to be pals, you are there to negotiate a large purchase.
Know your product even if they don’t or when they laugh at your numbers. Guess what – yours are right. Knowledge is power and remember that there are LOTS of places to buy a car.
I once was told by a former dealer that the thing he hated to hear most was some ask him, “What’s the best you can do?” and once he told them, to have them get up and say, “OK, now I know what I’ve got to beat, so let me go shopping at the other guys’ lots”, and then get up and leave.
Sounds like you have had a bad experience at your local dealership. When you come to the dealer ship you are usually doing three things not just buing a car.They are
1 buying a car
2 selling us your car(trading)
3 getting finance
In order for us to buy your car we have to inspect and drive it.there fore we need a key to the car they dont move on thier own,
to sell you a car we have to have a copy of a valid drivers license and insurance card. You dont have to give us those things but you will not be able to but a vehicle if you chose not too.
From a lifetime of buying and selling (including at dealerships) vehicles:
1. The average domestic dealership is AWFUL. Run away from any dealership that uses “greeters” and closers, and any place that has an extra markup on the sticker. It takes 45 seconds to figure that out, if the above applies hop in your car and leave immediately.
2. Within literally 10 miles of each other in my neighborhood is a fabulous Toyota dealer, and one that, um, isn’t. Same thing with VW. Again, the extra sticker and the greeter are keys.
3. NEVER walk in the showroom unless you are planning to buy. Stay outside.
4. You will get took on your trade-in, sorry, you will be lucky to get Kelly Blue Book trade-in even on the cleanest low mileage cars.
5. If you are looking for high end used cars and aren’t using Ebay you are nuts. Make the market be national not local….
6. If you are looking for cheap used cars and aren’t using Craigslist, um, see above.
7. If you got crappy credit, you are going to get hosed, sorry. But you might get a chance to rebuild your credit, so how much is that worth to you?
8. Never go alone, and one of you gets to be the asshole (the person that says “We aren’t buying today” and means it). Chances are someone on your “team” is good at that.
9. At some point in your life you will walk on a lot and fall in love with something. (And every salesman on earth can tell in a heartbeat). Don’t bitch about the price you paid the next day
“4. You will get took on your trade-in, sorry, you will be lucky to get Kelly Blue Book trade-in even on the cleanest low mileage cars.”
That is not “being took”….what price would you expect a DEALER to pay? Full retail? If you TRADE it in you will get a trade VALUE whatever ends up being SHOWN on the sales document.
If you want more than “book” for your vehicle then don’t sell it to the trade.
Great Editorial Megan! And I appreciate that it’s from a woman’s perspective.
My wife has similar feelings regarding how car salesmen (and folks in the service area) treat women. That is, somehow, she ends up feeling inferior. She says: “They treat women differently, I’d rather that you deal with them.”
As for the role of the Internet in car buying:
A year ago, I bought a new car. After visiting a car dealership where the sales manager asked me: “How much do you want to pay for the car?” I replied: “Two dollars and fifty cents.” (Ask a dim-witted question; and get an equally obtuse answer. ;-)
So, I too turned to the Internet and purchased my 2006 Civic coupe much the same way you bought your car.
In my case, I checked out the invoice price on line, and e-mailed *them* an offer. Let them counter, I figured.
One (smart) dealership had an “Internet Sales Manager” who e-mailed back a price $100 over my offer.
That was it. Deal done. When I showed up at the dealership, the Internet Sales guy handed me off to a regular sales person, but only to do the paperwork.
With the deal already done (via e-mail) here was no pressure to add things to the cost (like paint protection, etc.).
Later on, I asked the Internet Sales Manager: “What is your estimate of Internet car sales?” His reply: “About 20 percent.”
At a local school system, there are networked computers available to students at all grade levels (even pre-K).
As time marches on, the number of Internet-savvy automobile consumers will surely grow by leaps and bounds.
Mud — Yes, yes, yes. I am not there to be your friend, I am not there to listen to your BS. Once you realize that it is all about control over the situation, you can rattle them really well. Take off and start walking around the lot when they plunk you down in a chair so they can ‘get the sales manager.’ Don’t forget that it’s your money — only you can let them bully you into making a purchase.
I’ve had some heinous experiences… I think the worst was Stan Olsen Hyundai in Omaha. The salesman left us for ages in the showroom while he chatted it up with a buddy of his, then finally got around to showing us the car we wanted to see (no one else even approached us). He laughed at our trade, offering us a ridiculously low amount and telling us he was ‘doing us a favor.’ He tried to bully us into driving to lincoln the next day to get my husband’s parents to cosign the loan (unnecessary) and getting right back to them. When i pointed out that their ‘no tax’ promotion was a scam and that they just tacked the price of the taxes onto the value of the car (meaning you’d actually pay more in taxes), he blew me off. We left, ripped up the paperwork, and went back to the ford dealer the next day where we had been treated like HUMAN BEINGS. Imagine that? Bought a new focus there, too. The whole Stan Olsen franchise is an abomination. I’ve never seen so many sales prevention officers in my life.
I’ve had some good ones too… if anyone is looking for a Subaru in Omaha i can’t recommend Beardmore Subaru enough (ask for Todd). But for every good experience I’ve had, I’ve got 10 more bad ones. And I’m not alone. Getting quotes online is great… if they don’t respond, all I’ve lost is a few minutes of my time and a wee bit of bandwidth.
Frank, I understand your experience, although without as much hostility. I went to the Coral Springs AutoMall in South Florida and they had my keys from the appraisal process. They had not parked the car anywhere in sight and the salesman attempted 5 times to change the price to get me interest in a lease where as I wanted to outright finance and purchase the vehicle.
He went back and forth with his manager and they kept painting some rather interesting numbers but all I wanted to do was leave to compare another vehicle I had seen in another dealership. They refused to give me the keys. I had to ask 3 or 4 times for the keys and after the 3rd time, the manager stepped in with an even better price. He kept going on and on about how the other dealership will find a way to screw me over and I insisted that having my keys held ransom was an insult and much more along the lines of being screwed over.
After a nice little heated argument with the manager I told him he had one last chance or things would get violent…the salesman gave me the keys and I refuse to set foot on that dealership again.
I might mention one last thing that you, the average TTAC person, could tell your non-car folk: Dress nicely, don’t talk money, be polite, and NEVER buy a car on your first visit to the dealership. Look at it, drive it if you like it – remember rule #3, go home. Period.
Glen, I figure there’s two ways to handle salesmen who view me as an inferior creature. :)
1) Walk away.
2) Walk away.
It’s harder to do when it’s a sales manager calling you a ‘little missy’ and telling you that that big ol’ mean car is going to be expensive to fix this time, am you sure you’ve got the money… but a withering glare and curt “Do you take cash?” solve that pretty quickly. And then you just don’t go back.
Of course, it doesn’t help that my husband and I make an effort to look like impoverished college students when we car shop — I figure that if you’re going to stereotype me right away, you don’t need my business. :) It bothers me that women are so afraid to buy a car… the experience is overwhelming as it is, and having some tobacco-chewing redneck tell you that the best feature of the car is its purty color is enough to send even the most refined of ladies through the roof. Given that women have such purchasing power, you’d think salesmen would know better by now. Maybe I need to teach a workshop — assertive car-buying for women, not that most men I know could use it too. The difference is, women suspect they’re being taken advantage of. The men, they usually have no clue.
I’m going to have a go at internet pricing to see if I can reel in a Prius or other Civic Hybrid next time, for something under MSRP.
May as well go with the flow and try.
To pile onto my comments in the other article. This author mentions the time expenditure necessary to do a proper job buying a car. One thing I don’t have is time.
I have found that I have to spend less time to keep a car on the road than to buy a new one. The Mazda 626 will roll 228K miles on the way home with hardly a protest in it’s lifetime.
It’s just faster (and cheaper) and less frustrating to keep what you have. They just don’t fall apart like they used to. This is a problem for the whole industry until the on-line purchase option becomes more viable.
I’ve bought enough new vehicles in my life where I just don’t get exicted enough about a new new car to put up with all the BS.
Oh, and if anyone, ANYONE held my keys hostage, I’d whip out ye aulde cell phone, dial 911, put my finger over the ‘send’ button, and tell them they had 10 seconds before I called in a grand theft auto. Aren’t they basically holding you against your will? I mean, honestly, I’d probably pepper spray anyone who pulled that on me. I can tolerate some level of dealer shenanigans, but that is just too much.
>>>I surfed the Internet and requested price quotes online. A quick responder offered me invoice on my chosen mount. We negotiated back and forth over e-mail. A couple of days later, I walked away with the car I wanted for a fair price. I didn’t have to reveal my husband’s favorite sport or miss another episode of South Park. Bliss.
My mother used to do all this over the phone in pre-internet days. She’d call up a dealer, tell them what another had offered for the same car, and ask them if they could beat it.
David Holzman:
That works if you’ve got an offer from somewhere else. But if you’re just looking for the Next Cool Thing, dealerships don’t take “I’m not buying today” for an answer. And there’s no knowing how many times the deal might change b/t phone call and actual stealership visit — I’ve heard of a few deals gone south where everyone denied knowledge of the phone call and agreed-upon deal. At least with e-mail, you’ve got a paper trail.
I have been yelled at by sales managers in two seperate Honda Dealer, both here in Bakersfield, and in Lancaster, California. Needless to say, I will never own a Honda.
Locally, the best dealer is our Ford Dealer. Every time I have gone there, the sale men have always impressed me as knowing their product, and they did not pressure me at all. I have bought two Fords from them over the years.
–C. Alan
Well said Megan – car dealerships are awash with wannabe alpha-dogs who proceed to assault you with crude sales tricks and all the social graces of an oversexed Chihuahua’s amorous obsession with human legs.
I bought my last car from a dealership but the sales-person was a woman and I found her much easier to deal with than the rest of the sharks roaming the lot. However, I’ll buy my next car on the Internet – less driving around and most likely a better price.
I had an interesting experience when I bought my last WRX. It should have been a cake walk. I was returning to the same dealer 105,000 miles later to buy the exact same car. Easy, right?
Well, all the usual nonsense took place. I set my monthly price at X and was not interested in their Y. Back and fourth we went, sitting in “AHA” while the sales manager worked their dark magic. Finally I said, “Listen, I’ll come back later — I have to get to a poker game.”
Suddenly, the salesman’s mood 180’d. “You play poker? I play every week.”
So, a half hour conversation about the money-making merits of Omaha High/Low Pot Limit vs. Texas No Limit commenced. After that was done and the numbers came back from the manager all wrong, the Salesman said, “Hang on,” disappeared and five-minutes later came back with X payment — just like I had initially asked for.
This is a lousy profession to be in. I’ve had one person spit on me when I told her what I did for a living. So now I say that I sell drugs. And considering the average income for a car salesman is only in the mid 20’s, lighten up. There are always a lot more good salesman than bad. And the rewards aren’t many for hard work. Those that are shady get promoted. It’s those people in the back office that are cramming the 80’s style selling methods down the thoats of the troops. If you feel like the salesperson is a crook, it’s because he has to be to keep his job. I’m lucky enough to be at a decent store as an internet salesperson. So that means all cars priced at invoice or lower and very satisfied customers. But I’ve heard the horror stories from the guys at the domestic stores on our flanks. It’s a scene straight out of “Suckers” with those clowns pushing Pontiacs. How they can get away with it is beyond me. It’s Michigan, so maybe it’s that their customers don’t have a choice. 80% have to buy GM whether they want to or not.
I’ve bought three cars at dealerships. The first, a used Subaru, we paid too much for, because I couldn’t get my wife out the door – we’d just had two cars totalled in the same accident (long story) and needed a replacement. I couldn’t even get her to go to lunch first. She was a used car salesman’s dream!!!
The other two were new Dodges purchased on “green-slip” employee pricing. I probably paid too much for them, too.
Other vehicles have been purchased at private sale, and I feel I’ve done pretty well at those – I only looked at the ones I thought were reasonable priced, then managed to negotiate down from what they were asking.
I’m looking forward to my next new car purchase – I know I’m much better prepared to play the game this time – we look today, but don’t even talk about buying until the next day when my wife is safely locked away inside the house!!! :)
OT: Oh yeah, bring back the edit feature. Please!!!
I’ve done “the internet thing” for my last 3 purchases. I knew what I wanted and what I wanted to pay. Requested a few quotes, sent replies, and ultimately got my vehicle for a very strong price (invoice minus rebates — can’t do a whole lot better than that for “regular people”).
I spent a total of 30 minutes in one dealership test driving and then 30 minutes in another signing the paperwork after the email correspondences. Painless and the way to go.
The next wave is going to be TIMELY correspondence from the Internet Salespeople. Some dealers took 2-3 business days to get back to (of the ones who bothered). They were 100% shutout of getting a shot at my business. At the other end of the spectrum, there’s one dealership franchise in the area who advertises 15 minute “Quick Quotes” 24/7. I didn’t test them at 4 am, but whenever I requested info from them, they were back to me in under 10 minutes. I was very impressed. In addition, their *opening* quote was only $50 more than I ended up paying. They came out swinging for sure.
I often wonder if sales reps’ grueling hours have left them with too little time to notice women’s lib.
A few years back, my car-savvy fiancee became smitten with the Volvo C70 (admittedly not one of her savviest moments). I’ll never forget the rage engendered by her subsequent dealer visit. She asked, “does this one have the low-pressure turbo, or the 236-hp HPT?” He said, “I’m, um… don’t you just love the color?” She said, “can you arrange a dealer exchange for a five-speed model?” He said, “look how the top goes up and down all by itself!”
I’ve never had my car taken hostage, but several sales reps have “forgotten” to return my license after a test drive. I’ve also been implored to buy a Neon R/T because of its “small-displacement Magnum V8,” and to trade in my Miata because “Mazda is going bankrupt, and it won’t be worth anything in a month.”
I also steer car-shopping friends and family towards the Internet, most of whom have been thrilled with the experience.
Nice article. By the way, my wife almost seems to like negotiating. Before she bought her most recent car, she told me a story of sitting in a local dealership for three hours negotiating even though she knew she wasn’t going to buy from those jerks after the first hour or so. She just wanted to win. She ended up getting her price then telling them no thanks and leaving. :-) She still enters the car buying experience with some trepidation (I doubt anybody enjoys it), but once she gets going, she’s like a Pit Bull.
Megan: the dealer’s designate controls the tempo of battle. And prevails.
Precisely. As I learned from my tennis playing days, never – EVER allow your opponent to set the tempo of the game. (John McEnroe, aside from success, had nothing on me!)
The best method to make a car shopping experience enjoyable*
Take a friend of the opposite sex with you and start a mock marital spat in front of the salesman. The salesman will feel so awkward that not only will he/she not talk, they will do anything you ask.
YOU: “The bitch and I would like to test drive this POS. Would that be OK? Its the only thing that will shut her up.”
MockWife: “You are such a dick. Why the heck did I marry you.”
SM: “Ill get the key and a tag right away”
Oh, and after you decide what you want, do a on-trade-in deal over the Internet and sell your trade-in to Carmax. This is great fun and a wonderful way to spend a Saturday. At least it beats a root canal.
* 1) Do NOT attempt this with your real spouse!
* 2) Do not attempt this in New York or New Jersey. The salesman will just butt-in on your marital spat just to egg you on.
I’ve heard one of the local dealerships employs the “lost-your-driver’s-license” method at times to keep a customer long enough for the sales manager to descend on them. If anybody did that to me, I would just start dialing the police; no warning. I can’t imagine what I would do if somebody misplaced my car.
and NEVER buy a car on your first visit to the dealership. Look at it, drive it if you like it – remember rule #3, go home. Period.
This might apply to new car purchases (where you can pretty much be sure that if store X doesn’t have the car you want, store Y can get it) but I wouldn’t apply this rule so rigidly to used car purchases.
I think the keys to a successful used car purchase are to
(1) do your homework ahead of time. Know what models came with what options, look around and see what others are asking for the same model with similar mileage, etc. Forewarned is forearmed and arming yourself with knowledge is the best way to keep from getting ripped off or stuck in something you don’t want.
(2) Decide what you want ahead of time. Don’t let yourself be pushed into something the salesman wants you in. Best way to do this, IMO, is to have a reasonable range of options and prices and to stay rigidly within that range.
(3) Most importantly, decide what you’re going to pay, and stick with it. I find that for me it’s best to start with a lower price than I’m willing to pay and then allow the salesman to “bump” me, but never – ever – past my limit. At that point, I walk out, regardless of whatever begging or pleading they might do. Some people bristle at the thought of being “bumped” but to me it’s part of the process. After all, I’m not there to win some alpha-male d!ck measuring contest, I’m there to buy a car. If I accomplish that goal, then I’m satisfied.
By doing this, and by arranging my financing ahead of time, I’ve been able to avoid buyers remorse on my last two used vehicle purchases. In both cases I decided what I wanted to pay, period, and that’s what I paid.
Maybe if I’d negotiated “harder” or employed various mind-tricks, I could have gotten a better deal, maybe not. I don’t care because I paid what I wanted to pay, not what the salesman wanted me to pay.
My last two purchases were both used cars, one a CPO Saab from a dealer, the other from a Saab indy repair shop that sold cars, many of which had been serviced there.
On the CPO car I’d done my homework on local prices, availability, CARFAX, potential issues on that model. I talked to a sales guy on the phone, decided he was probably human and would be okay to deal with. He agreed to hold the car for 24 hours. He also pulled the service history and emailed it to me. I asked a sales manager I knew at a dealer on the left coast what would be reasonable to pay so I knew what would work. So I was forearmed.
My wife and I went in, eyeballed it good, drove it for 45 minutes, negotiated for 10 minutes and we were done. We were paying cash plus trade, so I had a check in my pocket. He gave me a price for my trade, I told him he could do better. He did–landing right where my pal on the left coast said he’d come out– and we wrapped the deal. My wife and I went to lunch, came back and the car was ready. Painless. I might have paid a couple hundred too much, but it was easy. Life’s too short to waste time wrangling the last cent out of a deal. It’s not like I couldn’t use the extra I spent, it’s more of a “is it worth the hassle.” Life is stressful enough.
The other car was older, but had an after market warranty. It was also 4 hours away, but I was able to talk to the previous owner and the dealer told me most of what had been done to the car. I had pictures. I told what would make the deal work for me and he gave me what I asked for. Done. Went and picked up the car. Painless, there, too.
Unlike the place we bought an Exploder from, which did a long back and forth me-salesman-sales manager tango on the price. Then they stuck us in front of the F&I guy who wanted to sell us an extended warranty. He gave me a number and I just didn’t say anything. For about 15 minutes. Then I said “I don’t know. Seems like a lot.” I repeated that several times. After about 40 mins total he finally came down to a reasonable figure and we were out of there. Annoying. They are a big dealer group and I won’t go back.
Independently owned dealers (like where I got the CPO car) are best, but it’s still rare to find a good one. They’re mostly pirates.
I’m sticking with my plan to buy from a new car dealer no more than once a decade.
I was a car salesman in the late 80’s for an Acura dealership in Greensburg, PA. I had customers who actually loved coming to me because I had such contempt for the sales managers, who had come from domestic dealerships. I remember telling one customer and his wife “here comes the really slimy one. watch how he plays with that ring he’s got on. He looks like a rat or a weasel, doesn’t he?” I knew all about the cars. Hell, I spent my dead hours in the shop talking to the mechanics about TDC on the engine. I eventually quit because the slimy one just plain pissed me off when dealing with a customer who was a nurse (cardiac) buying a Bahama Gold Legend LS Coupe for 26k and going to write a check for it. He wanted to track her and play phone games. I said no, went to the GM and got her the right price. Aterwards, I flipped out on him and said “Forget this place, I quit”
Great editorial Megan. Is there any dispute, the current way cars are sold suck.
I grew up in car dealerships. My earliest recollections are of hanging out at the Chrysler-Plymouth-DeSoto dealership where my dad was the General Manager. Dad left the car biz in the early ’70s when he said he could no long find an honest dealership for which to.
By the way, the “lost your license” schtick is known in the business as “de-horsing” the customer. Most dealerships today are what used to be call T/O (turn over) or “system houses.” Long, long ago only disruptable dealers operated that way. Now it’s S.O.P.
And if you really want crappy service, go buy a new motorcycle. No matter your experience and skill, you won’t get a demo ride. Except at a handful of dealers (typically BMW) you buy on faith or after riding a buddy’s bike. Car dealerships are paradise compared to moost motorcycle shops.
One would be hard-pressed to find a business class more ethically-challenged than the average US retail car dealer. Not only in things like the process brilliantly described above (the “grind”), but the further you look (used car department, service department) it is clear that an “authorized” dealer franchise is for all intents and purposes, a license to steal.
I had some good & annoying experiences searching for a slightly-used vehicle a few years ago (2003 model in 2004) within the New York & New Jersey area.
I did my searching online, when I found the vehicle I easily scheduled a test drive with no problems. I ended up buying a vehicle from a used Honda dealership and had a great experience there.
The bad experiences come from the @sshole dealers that told me the vehicle was still in stock and let me arrive to give me some crap that it was just sold (I caught on the second time). Of course they tried to sell me something else, but being the agressive, slightly jerkish person I am, I walked.
Oh man, I don’t know how to respond to this. Am I going to hell for selling cars? I have many happy customers, and some that I had no chance of making happy.
Since I finished school, I’ve tried to make a living in a car related field. I was tired shakey paychecks from auto restoration shops, so I started selling cars. I can be a lot of fun, but not if my customer won’t let me do my job (i.e., no driver’s license, won’t let me present the product, won’t tell me how to make the sale, runs from me).
I can tell you from both sides, things should, and are, changing. The internet is definitely the forefront. Huge lots with vast inventory are bound to be replaced by small hubs. Perhaps “salesmen” will be replaced by “product specialists.” Perhaps in the future the “best price” will be the one the manufacturer suggests.
Agree on taking the search national via the internet. My last 2 cars have been from the internet and if you want to live on the edge, buy a car on-line and then wait for a transport to bring it to you!
Gives you a thousand chances to say “what was I thinkin”!. Both purchases have turned out to be golden though – very pleased.
I’m willing to bet there’s a lot more disgruntled dealership buyers than there are internet buyers. From the comments, gee I wonder why that would be …
Doug: Most Triumph and quite a few HD dealers maintain a demo fleet and will offer demo rides. I think this is fairly common among “low density” brands because they have to be able to offer something that the “big 4” don’t offer.
However, you can often demo a bike at a rally or sales event. At Daytona in 2005 I spent 3 days doing nothing but demo rides.
Woman says she bought car under influence of bipolar disorder, sues dealer:
http://www.startribune.com/484/story/1051131.html
I live in Omaha, I can also verify that Stan Olsen can be nasty. I think they have a bad corporate culture that permeates all the levels, I knew someone who worked there for a long time. I doubt all dealerships are like this though.
Here was a super classy and totally subtle move they tried on me. I am looking at some Mazdas, older salesguy comes to talk to me but basically thinks I am not worth his time. A few minutes later he asks “Hey you look familiar… Where do you work?” He in no way knew me and was obviously asking how much money I had. I was so astounded as his lack of tact in this manuever that I just stammered my answer. I wonder what he would’ve done had I said I was unemployed?
We, (SALES PEOPLE) HAVE TO ask qualifing questons of the customer so that the customers and our time is not wasted. Its not good business to ask the customer in the first 5 minutes hows your credit. A better way for me( a sales person) is to say who is the car you are trading financed with.This tells me if you have good credit or not. I feel that when you come to the dealership the first thing we should do is pull the customers credit and see if they can buy. If they cant then they willknow and thier time and mine wont be wasted.
Went to a Chevy dealer in Las Vegas and they kept telling me about these great leases with balloon payments at the end while they continued to hold the keys to my old car – which they offered 25% of what I eventually sold it for. At the beginning of test driving and negotiations the salesman was sober, but by the time I demanded my keys, he had sneaked several sips from his desktop stash, my wife was disgusted by that.
We bought a 1-year old used car at CarMax for thousands less that blue book – advertised price, no negotiating. What a relief from the Vultures at the new car dealership.
I’ve helped several friends get through the car buying experience without being traumatized. Using the ‘net is the secret. For one thing, it puts you in touch with the fleet/internet sales staff rather than the gang-at-the-door. At some dealers this doesn’t matter. At other dealers it is the difference between night and day. Do your research including requesting quotes by ‘net using kbb.com, edmunds.com or other referal websites and get those quotes from 2-4 area dealers. Make the final deal with the place you most want to do business with. Several times I have said “look, I would like to do business here and I’m willing to pay a little extra to do so. If you can come within $100 of the best ‘net quote I’ve gotten then I will buy here”. Both times I did this the dealer said they would match it, no extra $100 required.
What really amazes me is that so many car dealerships fill their showrooms with inexperienced salespeople. After spending money on advertising to get customers in the front door, wouldn’t you want to put a well trained, experienced salesperson with them?????
Noah — why can’t dealers be like apple?
Dealers seem to have an amazing ability to high bad salespeople. Not just the lil guys, but luxury too. I wonder what the work environment for most salespeople at a dealership is like — are they not being paid enoug to attract the talented salespeople, or is it the training? Does the stigma of selling cars send people running into telesales and real estate?
Dealers should go down to the apple store and see what life is like there. Notice how you don’t want to run out screaming? Notice how you’re not filled with a sense of dread?
Then again, all this will probably do is sell a lot of lucite staircases…
Ugh…if I have to hear about Kelly one more time. Would somebody who thinks Kelly is the bible of car value please ask them how many cars they’ve purchased before? Better yet, have them cut a check for your car if you like their number so much. I’ve actually called and asked them how many used cars they’ve bought over the years. Last count was zero. So where do those magical numbers come from? I bet the guys at Consumer Reports know Kelly’s formula for trade evaluation.
I don’t understand why people buy from dealerships anyway. 99/100 will get a much better deal buying used. Someone made a great point earlier – most cars are built much better today than ever before.
Autotrader.com is basically a huge auto dealership online, and instead of dealing with the BS shenanigans of dealers, you can talk with the shmo who bought the car.
I bought a 4 yr old 528i from Autotrader, and it was and has been a good experience and a great car.
Megan Benoit: Megan Benoit:
March 13th, 2007 at 2:14 pm
David Holzman:
That works if you’ve got an offer from somewhere else. But if you’re just looking for the Next Cool Thing, dealerships don’t take “I’m not buying today” for an answer. And there’s no knowing how many times the deal might change b/t phone call and actual stealership visit — I’ve heard of a few deals gone south where everyone denied knowledge of the phone call and agreed-upon deal. At least with e-mail, you’ve got a paper trail.
All I know is that it worked well for her, buying three different cars over about 20 years. She was very proud of herself. But she was a tough character–used to intimidate her profs at Harvard.
Maxo: Does the audi lot still have a bunch of new 05 allroads and S4s sitting around?
Why is it that dealerships are eager to quote you KBB value when you’re trying to buy a car from them, yet balk when you point out the KBB value of the car you’re trying to trade? Kelly doesn’t buy cars, but last time I checked, they don’t sell them either… funny how dealerships only use those numbers when they work in *their* favor…
Actually, I did have a non-purchase related problem at the local Honda dealer, Herb Chambers, Burlington MA. I had to take the car there to get the timing belt done. When I picked the car up, they told me that the battery was on its way out, the AC compressor was going, and there was something else. The battery did go about six months later, failing one bitter cold morning a month or so ago, but nothing else has given me a problem since that visit.
I have to defend a few of us, as we are not all the insane Nazis that have been portrayed here, but unfortunately this kind of thing continues the majority of the time. I am a Sales Rep, have been for over 20 years, and if you do it right and truthfully,i t can be a rewarding and enjoyable career. You have to be a little strange to do this job, but if you are truly a car junkie that likes to help others get what they want at a reasonable price for both parties, it can be a wonderfull thing. Honesty and integrity are the keys, and if the sales person shares those ethics with their handlers, then you have nothing to worry about. Unfortunately we are a rare breed. I work from more referrals than walk in clients, and get them from all over the country. I keep in touch and take care of my clients, because I plan to sell them another car, several actually, and their friends and family as well. Do your shopping on line yes, but remember who is going to service the car you buy, give you a loaner when you need it, get those parts next day'd for you when you need them too; its all about the relationship after that sale, and dont forget THAT important part of the deal when you are trying to beat them out of an extra 50 bucks or you're going to buy that car thats 500 miles from where you are, just because they are a little cheaper. If it does'nt feel right within 10 minutes of getting there at the dealership, then chances are it wont be right and dont waste your time. Why go thru all of the negotiations after you have selected a car( which should take no more than 20 minutes max by the way) and be pissed about what you had to go thru just to get a car,i f you even want to do biz with them at all after the first impression. I sell high line cars because I love them, and enjoy working with that type of client. It is different with Toyotas,and Hondas, and domestics, but the actual negotiations should be the same. I sell a lot of lower priced cars to people who like to buy from us, as we give them the best experience in town, and they want to buy from us. Its not rocket science here people. Going into a store with a chip on your shoulder, having the intention of " I'm screwing them before they screw me " gets you nowhere. Work with them/ us and we will work with you. But we have to make something, or we wont be here when you need us later, as the place couldnt survive, due to not being profitable. It costs way more than most people realise to run a dealership in the 21st Century, and selling cars at or below invoice wont keep the doors open. Holdback isnt profit,i ts to help pay the floorplan on the cars to have inventory to sell from. Keep that in mind next time you are offering a price below invoice. We have to have something to keep us here, from the Dealer Principle, to us lowly car salesmen and women who work 6 days a week, sacrificing our nights and weekends with our families to help you get a new set of wheels.
Two factors seem to make car salesman the perennial winners of American’s most despised profession.
1. Transportation is the second largest household expenditure after shelter.
2. Car salesman have no formal education in their field, little or no professional training and no certification from either state governments or professional organizations.
Combine those two things and you can expect fireworks.
By law, all offers have to shown to you in the finance office. Plain and simple, its no gimmick.
Hey guys! Whats wrong with paying profit? I have found that if I offer a FAIR profit I get what I want and MORE! Salespeople are people too. I tip when I buy my coffee and when I buy my cars…. I offered $750 over invoice and the negotiating was done. I have found a sales person for life. He has followed up with me and even suggested a few places to buy the toneau cover for my truck. As a matter of fact we have gone out for beers a few times and our wives are friends. I know that my salesperson had formal training as the above poster mentioned and certainly respected our boundaries when we asked to talk about it… we bought a black truck because it had the equipment that we wanted but was hoping to buy a blue one. Just my thoughts, if you are rude to a waiter – expect that they spit in the food!
Why not lease! Buy what appreciates in value and lease what depreciates. Buy a house and rent a car! The TV adds for a Camry lease for 199 a month or a Fusion lease for 249 a month…. these are the best deals in the world! and smart investing to boot :)
We expedited our negoatiations several years ago by bringing our 2-year old daughter to the showroom with us.
With no toys. Or snacks. Or sippy cup. This, while slightly mean, limits negotiating time to about 90 minutes before the kid starts raising hell.
Little Jessica performed like a champ (truly, she was a natural) and her lachrymonious theatrics got us whisked through the process quickly and cheaply. When we politely declined the various useless profit-padding promotional product packages (with a loudly complaining toddler in our laps), they didn’t ask twice.
We ended up with a good price; we’d walked in and demanded the promotional special, which was priced a few hundred below what edmunds and consumer reports said we should pay. We stuck to it, despite their bait-and-switch and delaying tactics.
Our only really good car buying experience was at Saturn. I still remember the salesman’s name (Bob Snyder) and his face, and he still recognized me around town even ten years after the sale. I would have been happy to buy another car from him, if Saturn had offered any other car that interested me. (This was before the Skye, obviously…)
Ever think they are going to take your car hostage? Don’t sweat it. Suddenly show a little interest. Arrange to test drive one of the upscale models available. If salesman insists on going on the ride, good. Drive him to your house. Phone back to tell them where he can be retrieved along with the car that costs much more than your trade in. If you really want to play mean. Drive first to a bad part of town. Ask the salesman to come around and drive so you can see how things are as a passenger. When he gets out, drive off.
Dennis,
Its that kind of attitude that puts us on the defensive. We dont play those games,and when someone comes in that seems more interested in playing like that,they are not buying from me. I dont need the headaches,or the business that bad to put up with some of the antics that customers think THEY need to play to buy a car. Just be open and honest about what you are after when you get there to the dealership,and if you dont get the response you want,walk out when you get it from Online Motors and show them what their game playing did; cost them a deal,again most likely. The culture has to change,from the top down.
The problem with automobile purchasing is not so much the dealerships but the buyers who devote as little time as possible (i.e.none) acquiring information on the machine(s) they are considering to purchase. Heck, most people don’t even have an idea of what they want before they go to the dealership! That is extraoridinary as these machines represent a rather substantial mark of debt for most people that drive them. I have never gone to a dealership to test drive multiple models and then haggle. I know what I want beforehand – as well as what I am willing to pay for it. Hence, my dealership experiences have been fair to good. Arm oneself with knowledge and the dealers cannot prey on you, unless of course you’re a pushover.
‘Take a friend of the opposite sex with you and start a mock marital spat in front of the salesman. The salesman will feel so awkward that not only will he/she not talk, they will do anything you ask.’
I did this too with a female classmate. Best tactic ever. Throw in some crap about a child on the way, or mortgage payments for good measure.
Although the best deal I got was at a Honda dealer on a trade in they hadn’t vacuumed yet. They didn’t really get a chance to figure out what it was worth, but I’d done my research. I totally lowballed them, they asked for 500 more, so I settled for 250 more and new hubcaps!
As an added bonus that car was freakin invincible.
If you ask me, the first mistake that car buyers make is in conflating the selection of a vehcile with the purchasing of that vehicle. Before even dealing with shenanigans from the dealer, the buyer should already have picked out a handful of cars they’re interested in and done a good amount of research over the ‘net. Most salespeople don’t know the cars they’re selling, so it’s the buyer’s responsibility to know what they’re looking at. What features come on the base model? What option packages are bundled together?
Test driving a vehicle can be difficult, but if you make it clear to the dealer that you are under NO circumstances buying that day, you’ll know right away whether you want to shop at that dealer. Hint: the shady ones will still pressure you to buy anyway.
After you go in for a test drive, you should have a good idea of which dealers you want to deal with. Don’t be afraid to drive the same car multiple times at different dealers. See how knowledgable the salesperson is. Get a little geeky with him or her. One salesguy took much pride at showing me his Jetta 2.0T with Euro LED taillights and interior parts after he deduced that I was a car geek.
I decided exactly which car I wanted before I even asked any dealers for a price. When I did, I did so over the ‘net. Some dealers refused to provide me with a quote over email, and I immediately struck those from my list. Ultimately I paid $200 over invoice for my car from an email quote; while I could certainly have driven down the price by a few hundred more had I been willing to get some quotes from competing (and shadier) dealers, I decided it wasn’t worth my time or happiness to do so. Deal done and no haggle.
After reading the previous editorial and this one, I feel compelled to submit an editorial called “I am indifferent in my opinion of car dealers.”
The trade in is the wrinkle in the otherwise net nirvana. Fohgedaboudit.
Take the advice on this page. Get uncomfortable? LEAVE.
There are several ways to buy a car without any hassle at all. One of them is to use a service. There are guys all over who will buy you a car for only a couple hundred dollars. You will likely save money, and certainly not have to deal with the dealer.
Mark: I work from more referrals than walk in clients, and get them from all over the country.
Mark, congratulations. That alone speaks more for your honesty than anything else.
Don’t think I’m out to lowball every dealer out there. For the car i was looking for, I knew that they were slow movers and going for under invoice. I knew what i wanted to pay at the most, and if you’re going to be a crappy salesman and lie to me, then yeah, I’m going to pinch every penny. Treat me like a decent human being, know your product, and I won’t push for under invoice. Go above and beyond, and I’ll be happy to make sure you get a nice commission, and every referral I can pass your way.
But so help me God, if you try to screw me over I will do the same to you. That’s the best part of walking in as an informed consumer. You control the situation, not them. If you’re willing to spend $25k or more on something you don’t even know about, you almost deserve to be worked over. Let the buyer beware.
My last car purchase was in 2001 I desperately wanted a new PT Cruiser (go ahead, make jokes, but I still love it). Before the car hit the lots in 2000, I visited each of my two local Chrysler dealers to at least get friendly with them so I might get one of the first models. One dealer told me the Cruiser was only going to be sold in limited numbers like the Prowler and would probably cost about $60,000. The other dealer had never even heard of it.
So I waited until the hype died down and decided in late 2001 I would buy my new Cruiser. I did my online shopping, decided what I was willing to pay, what options I wanted, etc. I even went through Chrysler’s online pre-approval process and got the top credit rating available.
Back at the dealer, I spoke with the sales manager and told him what I wanted and that financing would be no problem. “Take your pick from the lot,” is what I was told with not a hint of interest. At the other dealership I spoke to a salesman who went to find his manager and never returned.
So I go online again and find the exact car I want at Carmax in Nashville, more than six hours away. The salesman on the phone confirmed the car had everything I wanted, right down to the stick shift (a rarity on a Cruiser btw). After driving five freakin’ hours, I arrive at Carmax to find the car exactly as described. Except for the stick shift. “Yeah, you’re right,” the saleshole said. “It is an automatic. Whatdya know.” And then wouldn’t even think of reducing the price. Or offer to pay for my gas. Or even apologize.
Hang with me. Almost done here.
Back home, I get online again, find a brand new car with all options I wanted, just the wrong color. Only four hours away this time. I correspond with the “online sales expert” and I decide to drive up to check it out. After accepting their generous trade-in offer, I drive home in my new car happy and satisfied.
Until three weeks later. “Hi, this is XXXXX at XXXX Chrysler. We made a mistake on your trade in. You need you to send us a check for $560 to make up the difference.”
Oh, hell no. Click.
Mark, notice I said if they are taking your car hostage or attempting it. If treated with respect, even if we never agree to a deal I would consider no such games. But of all the things I have seen dealers pull, the games they get together and conspire against their customers to pull, believe me, it takes only a hint of that to make me shift into game playing with no respect, concern or possibility I will purchase.
You may do right by your customers, but still you are a rarity. In general, salesmen and dealers lie whenever they think it will help, often getting so used to it they do it when they don’t need to do so. They play their games, they screw people over thinking the bigger the screwing the better a job they are doing. They deserve nothing but contempt from the rest of the public. Most of the time, you will be lucky if your salesman is simply fat, happy, and indifferent.
To those of you who want to blame the customer for not being armed with information, may you someday get the screwing you deserve. Since when is it good ethics or morals to take advantage of someone just because you can. Sure making a big purchase like a car one should be more careful. But just because not everyone is hardly means they should be done over and cheated. Maybe they don’t get the finest deal ever, they should at least get a reasonable deal done respectfully at decent dealers or with decent salesmen. And yes I know some of those exist, they are a tiny minority.
Car buying tips from a sales professional
I will share a rather uncommon way to buy or shop for cars. If you follow these steps, I can guarantee you that you will have a much better experience with car dealerships. Here it is:
1. Before you go to a dealership, do your research. Makes sense?
2. Be honest with the salesperson you are with. Salespeople will treat you with respect if you are honest. Car salespeople are one of the best at reading people. They know if you are lying.
3. Allow them to help you and show you around. It is their job.
4. If you just want to test drive a car with no intention to buy the same day, make sure you show up during the weekday. Please do not do this on weekends. The salesperson will not like it. They do not get paid hourly.
5. Give them at least your name and number. After all, you are the one that visited the dealership and used up the salesperson’s time.
6. On pricing, just remember that dealerships need to make profit to stay in business. It takes a lot of money to run a dealership. Be reasonable. Profit margins on cars ranges from 8% to 12% off of the MSRP.
7. Do not visit a dealership if you cannot do anything till 3 months from now. Visit only when you are ready (Within 30 days). Salespeople can sense that even if you do not tell them. This is a waste of salespeople’s time.
8. Do not settle for a car based on price alone. You might end up with remorse and trade the car too early. In this case, you will lose more money.
9. If you have bad credit, be reasonable. The buyer with bad credit needs to understand that their choices are limited. The goal is to re-establish credit.
10. Communicate openly with your sales person. Be honest. Tell him or her what’s on your mind? Treat your salesperson the way you would like to be treated.
**** By following my recommendations, you, the buyer will get better results and experience*****
My weirdest dealership experience was showing up at a Chevy dealership here in the SF Bay Area (19 years ago) on a Saturday mid-afternoon and finding exactly two people present. The “salesperson” who “helped” me reeked of whiskey (the ‘e’ is required…it couldn’t possibly have been single-malt scotch). On the bright side he was completely unable to initiate conversation, making the test drive rather pleasant (if unproductive…I didn’t like the car).
I recently bought an Acura sedan, and so I test drove several cars in the 25-35 range. The range of experiences in dealing with dealers and sales people was phenomenal.
In the Triangle area of N.C. – Luby Blackman at Infiniti was the most considerate, respectful, and appropriate of all the salespeople I met. I didn’t buy the G35 sedan because the backseat was not quite big enough for 2 carseats, but otherwise I would have. At the end of it, this was the sales guy that I most wanted to reward.
At the opposite end of the spectrum – Leith Audi of Cary. The list of complaints is too long to go into. I was so shocked at how I was treated that I called Audi corporate – their response: take it up with the dealer. After listening to Farago rave about the A3, I was tempted, but this experience helped me make up my mind with no difficulty at all.
Honda was also amazing. After having rec’d outstanding service at Crown Honda for the last several years – and I do mean outstanding – I ended up with a sales guy showing me Accords who had no idea what was the difference between an EX and an LX, etc.
Ultimately, the internet and notes from my test drives were my best friends. After 3 unreturned phone calls from the nearest Acura dealer, the next closest one responded to an internet request – we negotiated the price and financing over e-mail – I didn’t even meet the guy until I picked up the car.
I recommend this method to all.
btw – I would not rate digging out the shower drain beneath buying a car – it’s quick, painless, doesn’t hurt your back pocket, and you get the immediate satisfaction of running water when you’re done.
Ponch wrote: “4. If you just want to test drive a car with no intention to buy the same day, make sure you show up during the weekday. Please do not do this on weekends. The salesperson will not like it. They do not get paid hourly.”
This seems weird…I grew up in SE Michigan where, at least at the time, the idea of a dealership being open on weekends was highly controversial. I’ve lived in the SF Bay Area for 20 years, and it’s simply expected that people shop for cars on weekends for the perfectly sensible reason that *they* work during the week, and they’re the customer.
I have, once, encountered the attitude you describe. I would never consider buying a car from that dealership.
If you think any dealership is genuinely interested in building long-term relationships with customers, think again. I worked for an ad agency owned by a group of 11 car dealers, headquartered in Texas. On my first day shooting video for a TV spot at one of the dealerships, I was on the lot, and saw a quarter on the pavement. As I stooped to pick it up, I saw more change on the ground. The other guy from the agency looked at me and said, “What are you doing?” I explained that it looked as if somebody had a hole in their pocket, and they’d lost some change. He looked at me as if I’d just fallen off the turnip truck, and said, “you idiot…they’ve seeded the lot!” He explained that the sales reps scattered coins, so that the “lookers” on the lot would be stooping to pick up coins, giving the sales reps a chance to collar them before they would have a chance to avoid them.
That was only the first eye-opening experience I learned in my education regarding how dealers manipulate, fleece, and treat their customers with complete disdain.
It’s all about control of the situation. I would NEVER buy a car from a dealer, face to face anymore. The Internet is THE way to go. You have control online, and it comes down to who will give you the best deal. In a dealer showroom, it’s all about manipulation – them manipulating you.
I’ve purchased cars from the same salesman from 4 different dealerships in the last 25 years. The man is a consummate professional and has only worked for top notch stores. I have been pleased with all of my purchases.
There are still honest professionals out there.
To those of you who recommend internet dealing exclusively: Considering that most of us trade one car in when we buy another, this isn’t really practical. The dealer has to be able to evaluate our trade in. The trade-in also throws another variable into the equation that is the subject of haggling between buyer and dealer.
Obviously, it’s “cleaner” to sell the old car yourself and then shop for the new one, but most of us don’t have the time nor the inclination to go through that hassle. If it means we make a few hundred less at trade in, it’w worth it for the time and effort saved.
I know a girl who bought a Civic and the dealer tried to stiff her on some $200 floor mats. Come on Hoonda, that’s stooping really low. Who needs that $200 more? You or her(she’s poor)?
My favorite dealer experiance recently was at the Kia Store in Louisville, Ky. We were shopping for a minivan and the Sedona was fairly high on the list. The sales woman came out, looked at us, looked at our old van, and pretty much lost interest in us. She kept pressuring us to “fill out the approval paperwork” before she’d get the keys to a van. I got it across to her that this was not happening, I won’t fill out any kind of finacial paperwork for a car I have yet to see or drive. We looked over the Sedona (okay, but no where near as nice as it seemed online) but finally decided that we had been talked down to long enough and left. My wife dropped her card on the ground as soon as she handed it to her. What can I say, the Kia store had an interesting sales tactic: They conviced us to buy a Ford from another dealership.
I dont know if Hertz rental cars still sells used cars but I had a very pleasant experience there. The cars are pay one price (ala Saturn) but I felt the price was reasonable. And the maintaince records are included.
Of course they try to get you into the specials of the day–WOW a Cavaliar for $8995! And they want you to buy credit life insurance (for a single guy?) and an extended warranty “dont come crying to me when the transmission goes out” but overall it was a good experience.
Anyone watch the cable reality-show “King of Cars”?
Show profiles an auto dealer in Las Vegas.
After a few episodes I actually thought buying from them would actually be fun. Only problem is they sell Dodge…
Thanks for this interesting article, Megan.
From what I have heard, the US car-dealership system is characterized by strong franchise laws.
The effect is that you have a protected system where car makers can hardly fire underperforming dealers, and there is much less competition than in an open, free-market situation.
So, it’s like when you have professions organized in guilds. There will be good, kind, responsible people (if you can find them), but on average the customer will have a high level of frustration.
On another note, I wonder what you people think about CarMax? One of my favorite analysts, Arne Alsin, says CarMax’s business model is superior, that the purchasing experience is pleasant, and that the stock is a buy.
Full disclosure by the way: I am not associated with CarMax, and I do not (yet) own any stock.
We were driving to the Lexus dealer to look at a new car when we spotted an attractive current year Cadillac on an Audi dealer’s used car lot. The salesman quoted the list price for a similar new Cadillac for the used one.
Taken aback, I exclaimed, “That’s crazy, I can buy a new one for that”
You don’t have to buy it, ” he said, flashing his cheesiest smile.”
I said, “You know what, you’re right!”
We walked out and drove away.
Let’s see, we want $500 below invoice deals and better trained, more knowledgable salesman….?
Let’s see, we want $500 below invoice deals and better trained, more knowledgable salesman….?
Sure! And gourmet coffee and fresh baked cookies and a child care center and the car we want with the equipment we want in the color we want in stock… oh, and a masseuse to take the tension out of our neck and shoulders after we come out of the finance office would be nice too. That’s not too much to ask is it?
Agreed. I did this myself (although keep a printout log of the emails, they tried to stiff me out of an agreed $500 discount.)
It also worked for my sister. “You want a Honda Fit…”
While the horror stories are undoubtedly true, many buyers bring the pain on themselves by being ignorant or disorganized or unrealistic.
What can you do for the guy who comes in owing $16500 on a Pontiac worth $4500? Can you stuff him into another car? Sure, if he can take a $200/month bump in payment. But no, he wants all that negative equity to magically disappear.
Or the people who “don’t know” they have bad credit and complain that they have to pay 15% interest. Gee, try paying your bills on time loser.
Or the people that think buying a car is like buying soap at Wal-Mart. Certain combinations of options just don’t exist. And no, I can’t factory order anything I want and get it next week.
My advice to car buyers – from a salesman:
1. know your credit score
2. Know what your trade is worth – look at more than one site – Kelly, NADA, Edmunds
3. Be flexible on color, options
4. Use a finance calculator online to estimate your payments. Don’t expect to finance $30k for 5 years at $200 a month.
If you know your stuff before you walk in, you will know B.S. when you hear it, and know when you are getting a good deal.
I recently reseached a Subaru. Did all research over the internet. (Make sure you find out what dealer cash is in addition to rebates and holdbacks). Asked for quotes from Car Direct and Autobytel. Also asked for quotes from 3 local dealers through the “internet sales manager” listed on their web sites. I made clear in my request to all parties that I would communicate only by email not by phone. The best treatment and best prices came from internet sales managers of local dealerships. I was not so impressed with the WEB based buying services and one dealership. I kept getting followup emails after I said I was not interested (sort of virtual high pressure).
Got my car priced at $500 above invoice minus customer rebate, dealer holdback and dealer cash (cash to dealer from Subaru).
I once tried to buy an Acura from a South Atlanta Acura store. This was 1993.
I had driven by and seen the car I wanted. It was a 1993 Integra GS Sedan with a 5-speed. Black w/ tan leather.
I called the dealer and inquired. I poke to the sales weasel. He quoted me $15,700 plus tax. I ssaid, does that include Air? (I knew A/C was a dealer installed option). Oh, yeah it does.
Tell you what. Check with your manager and call me back.
He calls back. Yes, the price includes A/C.
Great! Send me a buyers order via FAX. He did. At the price quoted.
OK, I’ll be there tomorrow. The wife and I go by the dealer the next day.
I hand over my buyers order, and we get to it.
Trade? Nope. All cash.
Financing? Nope, I run a credit union and that’s done.
Extended Warranty? Nope, that’s why I’m buying an Acura.
OK, I;’ll get the sales manager to sign off on tthis and we can get this done.
…
…
…
About 15 minutes later he comes back.
“well, here’s your final price. $17,200.”
“WHAT???”
Well, the A/C is a dealer installed option.
I know that. That’s why I asked THREE TIMES if it was included in the price. Are you going to honor your buyers order or not?
Well, see…
ARE YOU HONORING YOUR BUYERS ORDER OR NOT?
Continued:
So he hems and haws.
We leave.
The sales manager come safter us, literally running across the lot.
“You can’t leave! I want to talk about this!”
Yes, we can. You lied to me.
No, we didn’t. The salesman didn’t know that AA/C was an option.”
Why do you think I asked THREE TIMES? And had him FAX a buyer’s order?
“We have to make a profit!”
That’s not the issue. Are you honoring your own salesman’s buyer’s order or not?
You see,…
Thank you. I won’t be back.
Wait! We want your business!!!
Then honor your deal.
But….
We left and never returned. I KNEW the price was too good to be true, and that’s why I asked for it in writing. That’s why i gave them three tries to ensure they knew what they were doing.
I’l never buy from that dealer chain again.
I did not have the same luck negotiating with dealers over the phone and email. Granted, I was shopping for a used car and an M3 at that, but I was fed some serious bullshit. They had prices $5-9K above NADA value and claimed these were not negotiable, they also claimed there was no way to tell if the car had been abused, etc. I ended up buying from a private seller.
The other gem was a now-defunct Pontiac dealer who tried the “What price do you want to pay” game. I had taken my mother-in-law to buy a brand new Pontiac. She pays cash for cars.
How much do you want to pay?
I said, We’d like to pay 10 bucks. What’s your price?
Are you buying today?
No. What’s your price?
Well, if I quote you a price, you can take that to another dealer and ge them to beat it.
So?
What do you want to pay?
$10. What’s your price?
Are you buying today?
We went back and forth for 15 minutes, and THEY WOULD NOT GIVE ME A PRICE.
Finally. “Will you give me a price or not? I’m not asking again.”
“What do you want to pay?”
And they probably wonder why they aren’t in business any more.
Frank-
Ask and most likely you will receive. Salesman are hungry for deals and inventory must move. Keep in mind, however, a dealership is in business to make money, and will try to recover or prevent a loss if possible.
My point about the staff is that it’s very hard to attract good people to this job. Further, it’s very hard to keep good people once you’ve got them.
Overall, it seems that most people do not enjoy the new car buying experience. Across brands, the examples of good salespeople are few and far between. We worked with a good salesperson at a VW dealership, who found the car we wanted sold it to us for slightly above invoice and then we were done, all over the phone. He offered us a fair price for our trade, financing and out in 3 hours (not bad). I think the model will start to change as the Internet plays a bigger part (car dealers are far behind the time). I know everything I could possibly know about the car and they are trying to say some option is twice the cost of the MSRP? Eventually, everyone will go into the dealership with a stack of paperwork, eliminating some of the brutal back-and-forth. When we were buying our Passat, another couple was purchasing the base model. No options and they paid much more than our fully-loaded car. Five minutes on any car site would show it was a bad deal. Thats where they are making the money on new cars.
K.
Kudos to Noley, Mark, Ponch, Rienzi, and all the others who recognize the difference between sales professionals in dealerships which earn high customer satisfaction index ratings and the sleazebags in meat markets where they’d rip your eyes out for a buck.
Having been with the same organization for 25 years and maintaining a CSI rating above 98% (nobody’s perfect), I make my living not only on referrals, but by selling cars to the children of people I sold cars to when they were single.
Granted, there are bad apples out there. But, not all of them are the salespeople. In addition to the “marital spat scenario” people, the parents with screaming kids, and the spitters, I’ve had prospective clients try to trade in a vehicle which had had $14,000 of damage repaired (and they tried to hide it). In short, car shoppers can be sleazebags, too.
Why do people nonchalantly pay a 50-100% markup on furniture and a 100-500% markup on jewelry, etc., but consider it a matter of honor (or sport) to “screw” a car salesperson for a hundred bucks?
This is the same person you’re going to call 2 years from now when you need a new windshield wiper. For the time period most people keep their cars, the difference between a “fair deal” and “screwing the salesperson” works out to $10 per month or less. Remember what Rienzi said about being rude to a waiter. (And, if $10 per month would put you in the poorhouse, you’re looking at too much car in the first place.)
Plus, whatever your job may be, imagine how you would feel if you were paid on commission, rather than hourly or by salary. Go ahead, whatever your job is, translate your pay plan into dollars per operations performed (successfully), trials won, perps caught, windows washed, burgers served, or whatever. Then, imagine how you would perform your job going forward. This is not an exercise for the faint of heart. But, this is how commissioned salespeople (and sweatshop piece-workers) live their entire career.
I learned a long time ago that, if I plied my trade a certain way, I could “screw” the customer if I wanted to. But, sooner or later, they would wake up and smell the coffee. Then, not only would they never buy a car from me again; but they would tell anyone with ears not to buy a car from me either. Conversely, if I dealt fairly, respectfully, and honestly with my clients, not only would they buy their next car (or 3 or 4 or more) from me, but they would also tell anyone with ears to buy from me, as well. Guess which way I make more money.
The salespeople who haven’t learned that lesson and the customers who “screw” salespeople for sport deserve each other. Fortunately, I work for a dealer who doesn’t hire the former, and lets us delete from our databases the latter (like restaurants reserving the right to refuse service).
Unfortunately, life isn’t like that. Until all salespeople are worthy of the term “professional”; and they and the consumer public develop and achieve mutual respect, horror stories like those chronicled above will continue (on both sides).
Zarba,
I do see your point. Try this job for a week…
What’s your price? Isn’t that what the big white sticker in the window is for? If you don’t like that price, what price do you like?
to all of you that think buying a car is like getting root canal or worse…….do you go into your grocery store and haggle with your grocer, do you haggel at your service station when getting gas, do you haggle at starbucks???? see where I am going with this why is the auto business the only place you can haggle???? I am in auto sales I love my job abd like assisiting peoplw who want to purchase a vehicle. You all say car sale people lie…..ever listened to a customer???
Do you know what it takes to be hired as a car salesman? A *relatively* clean driving record, the ability to pass one (1) drug test, and a pulse. I know, I did it between grad school and my first job.
I had good experiences at Carmax, both on the selling end, as well as on the buying end.
It should be noted that Carmax cars cost more. But they don’t sell lemons (as far as I know).
I traded my Corvette to Carmax when I bought my BMW from them. And I sold the BMW to them for $5,000 more than the Toyota dealer was going to give me when I bought my Prius.
The thing to remember about Carmax is that the price on the window sticker is THE PRICE. No haggling, no deals, and no add-ons, unless you want the Carmax warranty.
The deal with the Carmax warranty was basically a $75 deductible, and it was understood that complex work would be handled by the local BMW service center; which meant that the car would be transported across town for any major surgeries.
The $75 deductible was not a big deal for me. I merely considered it to be like a co-payment that I pay to my doctor’s office…except for my car.
I have no idea how good the Carmax service department is. I still had several months left on the manufacturer’s warranty period, and the local dealer was great with service.
After the warranty period ran out, I only had one major thing that needed to be done, and the dealer comp’d me on that.
So Carmax? I’d buy from them again. And I’d sell to them again. On the selling side, it’s a great, convenient way to dispose of a car. Great for me, because I don’t want to deal with running ads in the paper, letting strangers test-drive my car, taking the chance of getting a bogus bank-check for payment, etcetera.
PS – Yes, please bring back the “edit” feature! I get aggravated when I let ‘er rip and later discover that I made an embarrassing grammar or spelling error.
If your search for a new/used car doesn’t start on the internet, you’re simply doing it wrong. I’ve only bought 2 cars in my life. My first was a VW Jetta, but I had my dad with me, who is a master negotiator. The second was also a Jetta that my wife bought, for which we went in by ourselves, but contacted the Internet Sales guy. $100 below invoice, no hassles.
I always start out treating everyone with respect, but if a sales guy starts in with some crap, forget it.
http://www.fightingchance.com/
http://www.carbuyingtips.com/carintro.html
6 years ago I was in the market for a pre-owned BMW 3 series coupe in black / manual / tan interior. Yeah I had a specific car in mind but hey, every dealership has a list of cars coming off lease so it’s just a matter of checking the list and seeing what’s coming out and when.
Anyway, I walk into the dealership and I get accosted buy this fat jack-ass who hot to sell what’s on the lot .He tells me I can’t pick a pre-owed car’s color and no one in Jersey drives a manual anyway. Then he shows me a 97 M3…silver with like 50 k miles on it and way over blue book.
Next thing I know, he’s excusing himself to say hello to a couple who are there to pick up a 7 series .I see them talking about 50 feet away and he’s pointing at me and smiling. Next thing I know he’s back at my side and telling me that he told the 7 series couple about me balking at the M3 and ” we were all laughing at you ….. we can’t understand why you wouldn’t want it over the 330ci.”
I walked. Shortly after that I was pulling in at another dealership in northern Jersey where the salesman gladly said he would look to see what was coming off lease and lo and behold , there were 3 black / manual / tan interior coupes coming in over the next month or so and he would be glade to call me when they came in.
Not every salesman is an ass but like anything else , there are some good and some bad and some really awful .I went back to this same dealership 2 years ago to buy a new car and the guy who sold me my car had moved on and I got another jerk who was insufferable in an entirely different way so I moved on up the highway and voted with my feet.
Brian:
to all of you that think buying a car is like getting root canal or worse…….do you go into your grocery store and haggle with your grocer, do you haggel at your service station when getting gas, do you haggle at starbucks????
If I was spending $30,000 at Starbucks, you’re damn right I would haggle. I’d be a fool not to.
Aside from cheap, simple purchases, I negotiate the price and/or terms of virtually everything that I buy. Any purchase that involves large quantities and/or high price tags (i.e. over $100) is fair game for negotiation. I have negotiated the price of furniture, real estate, musical instruments, rental rates, and virtually everything else. I wouldn’t dream of walking into a consumer electronics store without haggling, and I even sometimes negotiate hotel prices.
So why would a car — the second most expensive item most people will ever buy — be any different? Haggling is essential to car buying, because (a) the margins are high enough that the seller often has wiggle room in the price and (b) sales prices and terms in the car business are all over the board. A refusal to haggle is as good as leaving money on the table.
The car market is designed to encourage haggling. Unless a car is very hot, you can bet that no two customers are paying the same thing for the exact same car. The smart consumer will pay relatively low prices, the dumb money will pay a lot. A smart buyer can pay hundreds or even thousands of dollars less than a dumb one.
Which explains why the sales process is what is — the sales team’s job is to get each customer to pay as much as that customer can tolerate, and a whole host of various tactics are used to figure out what each customer. Many customers are quite ignorant of what is going on, and you can rest assured that those people will pay much more than a customer who actually understands the sales process and how to negotiate to his/her own advantage.
The favored customer is one who buys on monthly payments, as that customer will probably never understand exactly what s/he is paying for the car. It makes the whole game of dealership shell game that much easier for the dealer to play — get the customer to fixate on the payment, rather than the interest rate, the number of payments, or any unneeded F&I extras that have been hidden into the deal.
‘Do you know what it takes to be hired as a car salesman? A *relatively* clean driving record, the ability to pass one (1) drug test, and a pulse.’
I think some of the dealers are upgrading. When I went to a nearby Honda dealer, the salesmen was an engineer who had been laid off by Nortel. I think it’s advantageous to have a white collar professional selling to other white collar professionals (which probably sounds pretty snobby).
I can understand salesmen being frustrated as well. If you go on thinking you are going to transform the profession, I can see that you might become disillusioned pretty quickly.
However, it’s a chicken and egg thing, and for many people there first experience buying a car was bad, and stayed bad. The first non-company car I bought was a Nissan which I purchased before going back to school, and they concealed all kinds of mechanical defects. Once they were fixed, it was a good car, but it was a lousy experience and I vowed never to buy a Nissan again. Fast forward to a recent visit where I went to check out the Cadillac SRX. I had a good look at it, took it for a spin, asked some questions, etc. At the time, GM was giving away an iPod shuffle to people who took a test drive. Let me reiterate that it was abundantly clear that I had done a lot of research into the Caddy. Anyway, when I asked for the iPod on the way out, the salesman turned into a huge a’hole. I mean this guy was unreal…I was so angry I wrote to GM. They did call, and said that the dealer would call and also provide an iPod. Never heard from them. GM called again to see if I had heard from them. They offered to call them again and I told them a) not to bother and b) it took them 20 years to get me back into a GM showroom and they managed to blow it.
Went into a Mercedes dealership, dressed in my “car buying” clothes. Mr.Armani/wingtip salesman didn’t even put down his paper. Bought a Jaguar. No regrets.
car dealers have squat on realtors for loathsomeness and are (usually) involved in a much smaller transaction …
Buying a new car today is very, very easy. Trade-in if you do that not so much. Here is the process of buying a car that I take:
1. Do all your research online and narrow down your choices to a few cars. If you are near a Carmax or similar superstore even better. Go try out all of them there first if you can and they are not 1st model year cars (of which you should not buy anyway but I have in the past so call me a CarFashionista). Once you have narrowed down your targets go to nearby dealers and look them over that same day. Tell the salesperson you are interested in X with Y and Z options and that you want to test drive it. You test drive it, listen to the pitch and say thanks, let me have a brochure and your card. If they ask for a phone number give them your email address only. Firm but polite, smile even.
2. Now you have tested the cars you want you decide what one you want to buy (this includes joining 1 or more forums for the car you want to purchase if possible and reading real life owners thoughts, likes dislikes etc). Off to the internet. Go to KBB.com first as they have the best configurator which knows what packages have to be with what to get what. Also build one on the dealer site as they have good details usually on the packages/trims. Look at the invoice price with destination and write that down.
3. Next go to Edmunds.com and check the incentives for your year and model. Including cash to the customer and advertising support. Also check to see what the dealer holdback percentage is for the brand you are buying (it varies). Keep in mind you are not going to get holdback money but the amount is good to know as leverage if needed..
4. Spec out the car you want on Edmunds and contact dealers close to you via email.You can also do a dealer search on most manufacturers’ websites.
5. Here is what you send to all the dealers you are interested in:
I’m interested in X with the following options 1,2,3,4,5, x. How much below invoice can you give me including X rebate, excluding x rebate for financing with so and so, x in advertising support (if any of these apply), and including all fees. This price excludes tax and tags
6. Sit back and let the offers come in. One will eventually give you a good price. Take the next nearest offer (assuming they both have or can get the car you want with the options you want) and say “Currently I have an offer for X from Y (X is actually $200 less than the X you were quoted. But be willing to accept the original X if this doesn’t work) can you do any better?” If they can then go back to offer #1 and say “so and so is offering me this (real amount offered) can you do any better?”
7. At this point you take the best offer. Or if one is much father away you may ask one to match the price since they are closer. (make sure you have confirmed the final price including tax, destination and tags and all applicable dealer fees in email. Print this email out with the price highlighted.
8. Last step is secure financing for the total amount you will need including tax and so forth plus a few extra thousand (Capital One, eLoan or whatever)
The only thing you will have a hard time with is the trade-in if you decide to do that. If you do get a good idea as to what it’s worth (Edmunds, ebay, autotrader and KBB) and set the minimum you will accept for it. In this instance a grand or two under what is listed in autotrader for your area is what you could hope to get for it yourself. Expect a grand or two less than Edmunds from the dealer. Just ask yourself if the difference in cost (plus and maintenance items like brakes, tires, and so forth) that need to be done to your car to make it sellable to an individual are worth it. I.E. do you have time to float the new car or an alternate means of transportation if you sell your old one first?
Next you go to the dealer, ask for the rep you have been dealing with, see your car, drive it and do the paperwork. Say no to all the scotchguarding and misc crap, but be polite. Say no to the extended warranties and add on’s. If they can beat your existing financing great if not you are already covered.
Drive home in your new vehicle and enjoy, just break it in properly.
Great editorial and great comments. Thanks to all!
When GM, then Ford and Chrysler offered their “employee” deals to everyone, the sale was quite successful. The follow-up survey work showed the biggest reason folks liked the promotion was that the prices were “set” and they did not have to haggle or worry they weren’t getting as good a deal as the next person. Of course, as an employee at the time, we knew enough not to buy because all they had done was to lower the rebate amounts and use the money to get down to the employee price instead. Yes, vehicles were not really any cheaper, but the pricing was offered with far more clarity.
Does anyone have experience buying a car in another country? Do the auto companies have company owned stores? Are the prices negotiated?
I read once that in Japan the majority of cars are actually sold by sales people who come out to your home. Is this true?
I am posting this in both dealer editorials.
after reading most of the comments attached to both recent ‘dealership’ editorials, i would like to share my best car-buying experience.
in january 1997, i went to my local porsche dealership, seriously interested in exploring the purchase a brand new boxster. long story short, i was informed that, with a $1000 deposit, i could get on the waiting list, order the car from the factory exactly as i wanted it and pay only the msrp. i was also told that when my car finally arrived, i would be permitted to take it for a thorough test drive and if – for any reason – i was not completely happy with it, i would be under no obligation to purchased it and my entire deposit would be promptly refunded to me.
of course, i had to wait nine months before i would finally take delivery, but it was worth it. and the dealership experience was everything i was told it would be.
pioneer porsche in san diego. joe valdala was my salesguy. he’s still there. i recommend them, and him, enthusiastically without reservation – and i have no connection with either of them whatsoever, other than as a truly satisfied customer.
Wow, great comment thread. I love the idea of no-haggle pricing, but only if it’s truly a fair price, meaning a fair deal to both parties. When I bought my last Honda, I really wanted to go through the local no-haggle dealership with a great service rep. Unfortunately, I was able to get the car $900 cheaper simply by calling other local dealers and asking for a price. One said “what do you want to pay,” and I hung up. One said, “when can you come down to drive it,” and I hung up. The third one quoted me a fair price (about $500 profit for them, I think) over the phone and honored it when I came in person to sign the papers.
Re. Cliff’s #4, that’s not always true; the Toyota dealer (Royal Moore, Hillsboro, OR) where I got my truck in 1994 gave me $3,000 for my 5-year-old Metro LSi.
With a bad transmission. That I told them about, being honest – I even said “you’re going to need to put a new transmission in that car to sell it to someone”.
I imagine that giving me well above bluebook (considering the cost of a new transmission) was worth every cent to sell a 17 thousand dollar truck.
(Want no hassle buying a car?
Find one on a used lot that you’re willing to pay advertised price on. Did that with my Mercedes; in and out in half an hour, most of which was just preparing and signing the paperwork and paying. You won’t get the best price, but you will save annoyance.)
“This seems weird…I grew up in SE Michigan where, at least at the time, the idea of a dealership being open on weekends was highly controversial.”
I am shocked that to this day in Columbus, Ohio, Honda dealers are closed Sundays!
John
I sell tractors and lawn mowers – there are people who try to haggle the price on those. Since I get no commission, I don’t care that much if we sell the item or not.
I run into guys like that all the time – the only time I am able to give a markdown is if it is an item that is discontinued but has not yet gone on clearance – it will be marked down very soon anyways, probably more than the discount I just gave the guy.
There is not as much markup in cars these days as you might think.
Ex: a 2007 Ford Escape 4×4 XLS has less than $1000 markup in the MSRP.
Ex: A 2007 Ford Edge SEL AWD with leather has only a 4.6% markup – $1400.
Go on Edmunds and look at the invoice prices compared to stickers. You will see this is true for many brands. Know this before you go to the dealer and look like a tool asking for $5000 off.
As for the trades, most dealers establish an Actual Cash Value on the trade, this may be close to KBB trade in or not, depending on the local market or the condition of the trade. Once ACV is established, and amount above that that they show you is considered a discount off the gross profit, and comes out of the salesman’s commission. If your car is worth $10000, but they give you $11000, then the dealer just discounted their car $1000, they don’t have another $3000 to give you (most times).
…and don’t be the guy who walks in looking for a Shelby GT500 for sticker. Anyone who looks on eBay knows they are selling for more.
“Sherman Lin:
Does anyone have experience buying a car in another country? ”
Not exactly a buying experience but a different way of buying – During a business trip to South Korea a few years ago two things struck me. The severe congestion of the city traffic and the absolute absence of dealer lots. I asked our hosts about buying cars and they told me that they literally order them out of catalogs at your local car company’s corner store front. Once ordered you then wait until someone calls you when your car comes in and off you go. If a test drive is a must for you then you seek out a friend or acquaintance driving the car you like. In the limited space that is southern Korea having thousands of cars lined up on lots made no sense… Which kind of made sense to me when I came back to N.A.
I always hear people complaining about their car buying experiences. Has any of you, ever considered paying list price for a car. Until you can grasp that concept, then you'll most likely have problems buying automobiles. Keep in mind, that you're asking a salesperson to lower his commission, just so you'll feel good about your purchase. What are you willing to do for the salesperson in return? I wonder if i come see you at your place of employeement, if I can convince you to work for less money. People should buy only the items that they can truely afford, this way, they wont feel so burdened. I no longer sell cars, however, I still feel very strongly about the process. Imagine the moment you decide on a particular make and model, and the right place to buy it. What was the main impetus, in your car buying decision? Was it price, location, brand, or salesperson? It is my opinion based on my experience, that the main impetus for most people, is price(DISCOUNT). I've seen pin heads pay more for the exact same car, because they thought they received a better deal. You see, the other dealer had a market adjustment sticker, making their car seem more exspensive. There has been times when customers were willing to pay more, when buying a car from a dealer with a higher administration fee. All because my car was 100 dollars more, Albeit the bottom line was much less. Dealers spend a lot of money training their sales department, to overcome any and all customer objections. remember, they do this many times a day and you, not so many. You have never bought a car from a dealer with-out their premission. That has to hurt! and it's true. You can't simply walk into a dealership plunk down your money and drive off. You first have to agree on a price, then the dealer decides if he can live with the deal, if he can, you ride. Buying a car can and should be an exciting time, you can insure your's will be, pay the MSRP. If you, like most constant complainers, insist on getting a big discount, don't complain about the process. One more thing, ask yourself if you've ever lied to a salesperson, while in the buying process. Rent a car if you want a test drive, don't waist the salespersons time. Salepeople don't get paid taken customers on "JOYRIDES". When you test drive a car, your asking a salesperson to drive with a complete stranger, who may or not be a good person. Salespeople get hurt and or killed, more then you may be aware of. I've know people who have died at the hands of customers who drove to fast. One friend who was shot in the head by a would be customer. You're asking a lot of these hard working people, cut them some slack. If you develope some respect for them, they will learn to have more faith in you, the consumer. Ask youself, why is it so bad that these people chose a sales career. Most car sales people barely make minimum wage, believe it. For all of you with terrible credit, stay home! For all of you heading out to buy a new or preowned car, be reminded that it can be a wonderful experience. Mega dealers spend mega dollars advertising their cars, they must make their millions back. I have sold thousands of cars in my life, I do not hang out with any of my customers. They didn't come in looking to add me to their circle of friends, they came in for a car. Many of my customers have been great people whom, I've admired, and respected. There has been a few I don't ever want to see again. Salespeople move from dealer to dealer, in search of a better living. They don't always find the pot of gold, at the end of the rainbow. Thank you for taking the time to read this, I greatly appreciate it. Tommy Gunn
It’s easy to bag on dealerships, because everyone has at least one bad experience. People tend to remember the rogue salesman. I think it’s a broad-brush, though.
If people didn’t like to negotiate, dealerships would be one-price. Only a smattering have one-price stickers. You can’t have the true sense of getting a “good deal” if don’t negotiate! So we really get what we ask for in the game of “give and take” with the sales price.
Did you realize that dealerships have one of the smallest markups in percentage terms (10 to 15%). When is the last time you ask a Nordstrom salesperson their cost on a pair of underwear? The markup is probably 100 – $200%.
My take is that dealership behavior is improving, because the smart dealers know that chicanery has no place in any long-term, successful business strategy.
I sense piling on here. But fact is, I think we ask for part of the tango that is price-negotiation.
Toyota dealers in the southestern united states, get incentive money. It could be quite a lot, in the thousands. No one but the Importer dealers, and quite possibly the manufactures. That makes it unfare to smaller dealers, and why one dealer can sell a car for less then another. Toyota isn’t the only manufacturer that have unpublished incentives. Read the blog from the guy who purchased his Porsche from a dealer who allowed him to pay MSRP. You can all get happy happy, if you do the same.
Tommy Gunn
Importer, dealers, and quite possibly the manufacturers know about the extra money. Sorry I didn’t finish the thought on my last blog.
I was “ripped off” when I bought my first new car back in ’81, and promised myself never again. Since then I have helped/advised literally hundreds of people (mostly women – I am one of 15 males in a company of 225) in their new car purchases. I can name the decent dealers in the Houston area where a simple call can get a fair price and win/win situation. The crap that women face (especially flying solo) at a dealership is unbelievable.
I can only imagine some of the crap salespersons face on a daily basis. That said, your new car purchase is usually an occasional event – perhaps every 5 or more years – and the cards are heavily stacked against you.
The deealers who have treated me and/or my ‘clients’ well will receive dozens of repeat customers down the road. Those who try to dick us around will get erased off my map. For example, Joe Meyers has a number of dealerships not 10 minutes from my area. But their practices are so bizarre (ADMs, pad-ons, etc), it’s not even worth stopping by. I’d much rather send my folks to Jeff Haas, who started by giving my wife a very fair deal on a Toyota, and thus has rung up close to 25 sales based on my referrals. Play nice.
Just today I was very pleasantly surprised by Momentum Saab….went to look at a 9-3 convertible, salesman gave a little info on the car and tossed us the keys after a quick DL scan, and bade us well on a test drive. No pressure tactics, promised a great deal should we decide it was the car for us, and made sure we had recent materials. I wanted to hug him. He’s in my little black book for future reference…..
I’ve had some crappy car dealer experiences and some REALLY crappy private seller experiences. I’ve run into some people selling cars through the want ads who had were certifiable psychos.
dwford:
There is not as much markup in cars these days as you might think. Ex: a 2007 Ford Escape 4×4 XLS has less than $1000 markup in the MSRP. Ex: A 2007 Ford Edge SEL AWD with leather has only a 4.6% markup – $1400.
It’s a common misperception that “invoice” = cost. The actual price is a fair bit below invoice, thanks to the “holdback” discussed above (usually 2-3% of MSRP), as well as other incentives, some of which are published.
For the price-conscious buyer, MSRP is typically irrelevant. Most cars can be purchased for well below sticker, so there’s no reason for the average buyer to even worry about it, the window is a gimmick used by the dealer as an excuse to begin negotiating from a price point that is substantially higher than necessary.
I only look at the window sticker to confirm what factory-installed options are installed in the car , and generally have no intentions whatsoever of paying anywhere near that price.
As a young kid growing up outside of Detroit, I had dreams of working at a dealership, and working my way up the ranks. I envisioned a dealership as being a place full of great people and great cars. Fast forward to my early 20's. In 1999 I found myself working for a large Chevy dealer in Ocala, FL. The salesmen were basically instructed to get the sale by promising the world, though it was rarely followed through. I hated havint to apply the $500 paint sealer-it was a good product, but we were told to just apply it to the large areas, and stay about six inches away from the edges. One time I was doing a Cavalier, and was only done with one side, but had to stop because the salesman promised the car to the customer in like, 20 minutes from the time he took it back to us…I don't think so!!! I think the worst day for me though, was when one of the salesmen came back to the washrack where I worked and asked me to follow him to a customer's house. An elderly lady had just bought a new Lumina, and she didn't want to drive it home. Well, on the way back to the lot, the salesman began to tell me all about the "deal". At that time, Chevy had $1500 rebates on all Luminas, and they had that painted on all the windshields, but when this lady came into the showroom asking to see a Lumina, the salesman scraped the rebate off of the glass first, and ended up getting that lady to agree to paying $1500 OVER sticker, and the dealer got to keep the rebate money, and he said that they ended up getting her trade from her for nothing!!! Yeah, high fives were assured by the boss and all the managers when he got back to the showroom. It made me sick to my stomach. I worked for a few more dealerships briefly after that, but that day in particular put a bad taste in my mouth for car dealers.
Tommy Gunn “Rent a car if you want a test drive, don’t waist the salespersons time. Salepeople don’t get paid taken customers on “JOYRIDES”. When you test drive a car”
So how dare I ask for a test drive on a car. How dare I potentially waste the salespersons time. Why I need to go spend my dime to rent a car to try out, so I don’t waste the time of my salesperson who might have a buyer instead of a someone still determining what they want. Thank you for reinforcing the point that the current system sucks.
Sherman Lin: Does anyone have experience buying a car in another country? Do the auto companies have company owned stores? Are the prices negotiated?
I read once that in Japan the majority of cars are actually sold by sales people who come out to your home. Is this true?
I am posting this in both dealer editorials.
I have read that buying a car in Germany is a completely different experience. Most cars are factory ordered over there, and the dealers do not have lots of cars in stock at hand. The people like to pick their new cars up at the factory, and the factories are set up for this very special occassion in people’s lives.
Contrast that with the way we do business in America. The only car that I know of that you can pick up at the factory is a Corvette, and I am not really sure if they are picked up at the factory or the Corvette museum (both are in Bowling Green, KY). Also, the Chevy dealer will tell you that you have to pay for the delivery charge and that this delivery charge is mandated by GM.
What a rotten way to treat a customer.
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SherbornSean: Great editorial and great comments. Thanks to all!
I agree! I would like to see more editorials writen by the ladies in the future.
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I once went to a Honda dealer to negotiate on a used Civic that was on display at the mall and had a spoiler. The salesman kept telling me over and over againg that he wanted to earn my business. I asked him if they could remove the spoiler and credit me $250. They told me that they could not do that. I asked them if they could credit me $250 since I did not really want it, and I would prolly be removing it myself. (Honestly, I hate spoilers. I was not lying.)
They guy went to the back office and then came out (we was negotiating outside) and told me that they will credit me $250 for a spoiler that I did not want, but they would have to charge me $250 for the Honda 40 point used car check that ‘every Honda dealer charges on all used Hondas’. I told him I did not believe him. He cursed me out, told me where I could go, and told me to never again come back.
I followed his instructions. I have never been back.
I think I understand the dynaimcs that took place. They was straight up with me up until they perceived that I had lied to them, so then they switch into lying mode.
But really, what do so many suckers fall for these spoilers? It does not make the car look any better, and it makes you a bigger target for theft or vandalism. A friend of mine had his Accord vandalized just so they could rip the spoiler off. It cost him a $250 deductible. This whole thing with spoilers is all so stupid.
I know the above example was a used car and the spoiler was probably on the car at trade-in, but I really hate it when dealers take it upon themselves to pre-install junk on their new cars just to increase their profit margins.
I called a Lexus dealer asking about the price on a certain model. Their price is MSRP + $1,500 for some kindas “dealer installed package that everybody wants.” I asked them what this DIP is, he told me, (nothing but additional dealer profit for scotch guard) and I asked him what else does it have, and he told me, (made crap up) and then I told him that this DIP is not worth even $50 to me, and asked if they could sell me a car without this dealer profit package. Imediately, the price dropped to $699 for the DIP but they refuse to sell cars to anybody without this DIP because they know that everybody wants the DIP.
I hangged up the phone, all dipped out and frustrated at these people.
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Not all car dealerships suck. Crest Honda in Nashville is where I purchased my Honda, and these people where very straight up with me. They used to be an oldsmobile dealership also, but now the old oldsmobile building is now a real cool used Honda place. If you are in the Nashville area and are buying a new or used car then you should at the very least give them one hour of your time. (It is the other Honda dealer in Nashville that sucks!)
Anyone ever notice a gender difference between salespeople? Frankly, my limited experiences with female salespeople was more positive than my dealings with men. At Alta Infiniti in Toronto the lady I saw about a G35 coupe was scrupuloulsy honest and if I had been more comfortable inside the car I would have been more than happy to make a fair offer. And the lady from whom I bought my Toyota was a pleasure to do business with, so much so that if I am buying another Toyota I’d gladly drive an hour to go back there.
Ooops. I meant to say that Trickett Honda in Nashville is the great Honda dealer. Where is the edit thing when you need it? Doh!
In my hometown of Galesburg, IL, my parents were hosed by Louis Lakis Ford Dodge back in the early 1990s. They went in looking at a 91 Dodge Grand Caravan, wishing to trade in their late 80s Ford Escort towards. As I was 7 or so at the time, I don’t remember all the details that went down, but my parents later told me the sales manager belittled them for financing through a credit union instead of the dealership. From that point on, my parents vowed never to return to buy a car, new or used, from them again.
When it came time to get a new car (about 7 years later), my parents and I drove 15 minutes west to a small town called Monmouth. Cavanaugh Motors, their Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep/Plymouth dealership, had been where my grandmother bought a 93 Chrysler New Yorker Fifth Avenue several years earlier. Needless to say, we’ve purchased 3 new vehicles, 4 used vehicles, and traded several others from them since our visit back in 1999/2000. We’ve had the same salesman since ’99, the owner of the dealership knows my family by name, and they even have a speed dial number on my cell phone.
When my Jeep Wrangler’s transmission bit the dust in Champaign (2 hours away), I called up, asked for help to try and decipher the problem, and we wound up narrowing it down to the transmission. Our salesman even drove down with me on a Sunday to pick up the Jeep from the parking lot it was stuck in and towed it back to the dealership for a small fee (less than $100).
While Cavanaugh’s might have a smaller selection than other dealers (due to their small size and being a single dealership), there’s no other dealer that I would want to do business with. Their staff is amazingly courteous, low pressure, and is more than willing to talk about stuff other than cars (i.e. dogs, football, home projects, etc). The level of service they have supplied for my family is so good to the point that I would be willing to go a very long distance to continue to do business with them.
I honestly don’t understand many of the comments here. While I’ve complained about the dealership experience, it has mostly involved their service departments and their after sale care. While I’ve also had my share of bad sales experiences, most of them lasted only about 10 minutes as I knew that we weren’t going to do business. I don’t get it that people will spend hours haggling over a few hundred dollars, put up with rude treatment, and then not make the deal.
As has been already stated, knowledge is the key. Being reasonable is also very important. Dealers do need to make money. Trying to beat them out of every single nickel isn’t reasonable and you can expect that you won’t be treated well. After all, it isn’t a lost sale if they’ll lose money selling it.
In my life, I’ve bought about 45 cars, both new and used, cash and credit, for personal use and am responsible for the purchase of about another 100 vehicles for my family. In this time, I’ve been able to establish some good relationships with a few car salesmen and have understood their point of view from their side of the table.
Respect is the KEY.
I respect car dealers in the same way I respect rattle snakes.
they are not to be trusted…
Bring back the “edit” feature, please.
Yeah, I agree with bringing back the edit function. Some of us know the seven coordinating conjunctions and don’t notice a splice until after our prose “goes up in lights…”
Megan, great article. Not only do you give an insightful take on the ridiculous process of buying a car, but you also gave a mention to the “Big Chicken.” It’s a proud moment for this Marietta native :) Keep up the good work. — JBU
I can’t believe that the auto industry still uses the current dealer business model. I would expect more dealer networks like Saturn or CarMax where the price on the window is the price of the vehicle. I also would like to see more dealer lots like CarMax where multiple brands are offered side by side. I have to wonder how the current dealer business model impacts new car sales. Wondering if they would sell more cars if the dealers were all multi-brand and offered a no haggle price.
To the salespeople writing in: while you lecture us – the consumers – on our behavior – please lecture your industry. I won’t deal twice with bad salespeople or dealers. At this point in time I never intend to buy another new vehicle in fact. Because of my own dealer experiences and stories of dishonesty from friends and family I think we’ll welcome the next business model that comes along to replace the haggle or be screwed version we have now. The dishonest dealers or salespeople just ensure your own extinction sooner or later. Isn’t this what has happened to GM, Fomoco & D-C by not building consistently good quality products (aka keeping up with the competition)?
We bought our first/last new car in ’99. It was a CR-V 5-spd, still serving us faithfully with 140K miles on it.
We started at Cookeville (TN) Honda. Salesman insisted there was no such thing as a 5spd CR-V. And 14% interest rates. And he could not get anything but what was on the lot… etc etc. The kicker was the salesman explaining later if we’d buy a 5spd from him (finally admitting their existance), when he needed a demo vehicle he’d just run over, get our CR-V, let the customer drive it, and then return it washed and detailed. Uh – no thanks… I’m rather particular about my vehicles and suspect that my insurance company would have a stroke at that suggestion…
Next came Oak Ridge Honda. The ran our credit without our knowledge we discovered a few years later when we bought our first house. Finance man fit the greasy stereotype. All these expensive add-ons. We walked out with the finance man literally chasing after mocking us. Wonder what the other customers thought? $1K trade-in offer on an Accord we sold outright for $3K later. They are out of business now.
Airport Honda (Knoxville) had bugged their office. Salesman would leave his office and return 10 mins later with a strategy that relied on information he could have only had by listening to my wife and I quietly discuss in his office during his absence. A later trip to look at Hyundai minivans for my sister-in-law at another dealership revealed they were using a webcam and microphone sitting on a bookshelf pointed at us… We left in both cases.
I took my binder of notes to the Chattanooga dealer. Salesman did not like that. Inside I had a matrix of price versus profit precentages and a calculator and all of the reviews I had printed out.
I did not shop online but I used a couple websites to find out the invoice price. My credit union had a book that listed invoice prices too I later found out.
Whatever the case there were 3 dozen pages of material he only got to glimpse occasionally. Offered him a fair price above invoice and below MSRP and he walked out on us mumbling he just didn’t have to put up with us… I made a polite opening bid, it was his turn to counter. I should have asked for another salesman. We were not impolite in any way.
We went to the Cleveland, TN Honda dealer and told him we were done playing games with salesmen and dealers – I was going to buy a CR-V from somebody. No finance games, we had our own financing through our credit union (don’t do it any other way IMHO), no dealer applied $500 paint sealers/Scotchguard packages or $300 pinstripes. I gave him a price – 3% over invoice and a 30 min time limit to give me an answer. He came back in 10 mins with a price $100 over my price and we signed the paperwork. Itw as the end of the day and the end of the month if that makes any real difference.
He was happy and we were happy. A few days later we took delivery and it arrived from the other dealer lot with 200 miles on it (no problem), mudflaps and floormats – none of which had been mentioned in the deal. What more could I ask for? They were a bit weird about the dealer tag (the advertising tag). I drove it down the street to test drive the car and put gas in it (their treat) and removed the tag. Returned, went inside and someone got into the car and reattached it. Got home and discarded the tag and removed the dealer sticker on the tailgate. A week later I took it to the Cookeville dealer for a tailgate strut that was leaking and was glad the salesman I was dealing with there initially saw me. The whole buying process took a month. I didn’t not enjoy the process and hated the payment even more (my first car payment). We’ll drive $5K used cars from now on. Less to worry about and I’d rather put the money saved in the bank or into our house.
I understand we can’t all bleed the retailers and expect to have retailers to rely on but that goes just the other way just as easily – you can’t bleed the customer and expect to have future customers either. So simple, so rarely taken into consideration.
Great article; I agree on all points. I would rather get dental work done with no anesthesia than buy a car from a dealership.
You can even do better than $500-1000 off invoice by playing hardball. The dealer can sell at a loss (technically) that day, but they recoup their costs when they are reimbursed for “floorplanning” the car, high CSI scores, etc.
A lot of piss poor dealerships are the result of state franchise laws that give more protection to dealers than UAW workers.
Call Nissan or Honda corporate and ask them what’s needed to yank a dealer’s franchise in YOUR state… I think the WSJ had a piece on how myopically protected dealers were in the ‘freedom lovin’ state of Texas.
There’s a reason quality obsessed corporations like Toyota and Honda can’t use simple quality control measures like ‘dummy’ car buyers/service customers (that small supermarket chains employ). They have better uses for the $Millions in legal fees they’d have to spend to shut down one POS dealership.
That said, an informed shopper is the best shopper; the internet IS changing things. Good dealers do stand out.
Of course, if you want a specific, hot model (like a lime green Prius), expect to pay… And remember the ultimate negotiating tool is the ability to walk away.
I’m currently trying to help a friend of mine buy a used car.
he wants a PT Cruiser.
Every dealer have gone to so far are trying to sell cars that are dead. They are all priced way to high for there age..
$5400 to $6000. They are all broken in some horrible way.
the last 4 I looked at had major oil leaks. $3500 to repair!
One car I looked at that the dealer was trying to sell for $5998.00
Had excess mileage 125k, oil leak, the bottom of the engine was wet, bad tires, bad rear brakes, needed new shocks and the dashboard was brittle. you could crush it by touching it.
I was not going to buy the car… but I though after I demonstrated that he car was worth about $1200. he still would not bulge on the price..
Auto dealers job is to get you to buy a car..
They really don’t care if it works or not.
Let us not hast into this being an old article, as this and the comments made here are as applicable today as they ever were. The respect, however, must at all costs be mutual between the sales person and the customer.
The past 3 months of shopping for a Ford product has been nothing short of horrendous. I’ve never owned a Ford in my lifetime of buying vehicles and I still have a lot more to buy. The dealerships have not been very pleasant to work with. The tactics are some of the same ones that have been used that I’ve read about in auto sales folk lore. What is worse is having the dealership represent the brand like as Ford seems to have their hands tied. After having brought a multitude of shady dealer practices in great detail to the attention of Ford marketing or their customer satisfaction group, all they do is apologize up and down while in the same breath tell you the dealers are independently owned and operated. I mean really, they are just selling the products that Ford engineers, tests, manufactures, all orchestrated in a manner which requires a great deal of discipline and consideration of others. Then, that well engineered product is put into the hands of people that are only there to facilitate the exchange of a product for payment. But you have to do this stupid inane dance, one that I have not had to do in a very very long time. This whole experience has soured my pursuit for the purchase of a new Ford product and has given me reason to advise others to steer clear of the blue oval.
Five to one is a very telling and skewed look at the disproportionate spread of bad dealers to good ones base on my own recent experience. I would rather have a rectal exam with a sandpaper glove than find myself walking the sorrowed path shopping for a new Ford product. I put forth every effort to curtail my disdain that would surface within the ten minutes of discussing price. Writing this makes me want to puke. The article is spot on.