In 1993, Toyota began developing a radical gas-electric hybrid vehicle called the Prius. With gasoline at historic lows, internal company documents gave the concept a five percent chance of commercial success. In May 2007, the Prius was America's sixth best selling passenger car, with 24k units. Toyota also just passed the one-million-hybrids-sold milestone. Toyota deserves a raspberry for the worst internal forecasting ever, and an award for one of the most successful new-car launches in automotive history.
Needless to say, the Prius' success is not without controversy. The Japanese hybrid has a more polarizing influence on pistonhead opinion than any other vehicle made save its philosophic nemesis, the Hummer H2. Compare the gas-swilling in-your-face Hummer's rumored demise with the Prius' rise up the sales charts, and there you have it: a snapshot of American's shifting priorities.
You also get a glimpse of Toyota's branding expertise. While the Japanese automaker continues its assault on the domestic pickup truck and SUV market (creating much of the animus alluded to above), the Prius is still a perfectly defined product within Toyota's existing brand identity: reliable frugality.
The Prius is such hit that it's now a household name; consumers interchange the word "Prius" with "hybrid" in the same way that they ask for a Kleenex. The last automotive product to pull that off was the Jeep– some fifty years ago.
Toyota's 80 percent share of the total U.S. hybrid market has had the Xerox effect on its competitors. Their hybrids are either flying beneath the radar (Nissan Altima hybrid), eating crumbs off Toyota's table (Ford Escape and Mercury Mariner hybrid) or retreating from the field of battle (Honda Accord hybrid).
Honda's move comes despite the fact that the company's Insight hybrid was first to market in 1999. While Honda will continue to fight for gas-electric market share with their "mild" hybrid Civic, they're putting their high-efficiency eggs in two new baskets: a new Fit-class hybrid and clean diesel engines for their existing model range.
Pundits often argue that Toyota stole a march on its competitors by creating a hybrid with unique sheetmetal (as opposed to hybrid-powered versions of existing products). Well, the Prius has had such a dramatic halo effect that consumers now associate the technology with Toyota's entire lineup. Hybrid Camrys are currently outselling hybrid Civics by 50 percent.
Toyota's success with the technology has forced all the other global players to put their nose to the hybrid-powered grindstone. Mercedes and BMW bought into GM's sophisticated (read: expensive) two-mode hybrid drive. Buyer's remorse may be setting in; the Germans are now focusing on developing their own mild-hybrid technology.
The shift reflects a realization that competing with Toyota mano-a-mano with full hybrids is a sucker's bet– especially as the Prius v3 looms. (Toyota is targeting a 20 percent efficiency gain.) The other factor is simple cost-effectiveness. Mild hybrids yield a greater return on investment.
Whereas a full hybrid demands a [ballpark] $2500 production premium, micro and mild hybrids start at $700. When combined with other technologies such as direct injection and full valve control, the mild hybrid seems a far safer proposition. BMW's revised 1-Series– complete with start-stop engine management, valve control and direct injection– shows a 20 percent fuel efficiency improvement over its predecessor.
In short, Toyota's competitors are hedging their bets, looking for less risky across-the-board fuel efficiency solutions.
The market is bi-furcating: "real" hybrids (which the market increasingly interprets as Prius/Toyota) and micro/mild hybrids (traditional models sold on their over-all moderate efficiency gains, rather than "gee whiz" technology).
And where does this shifting market leave Toyota? Dual propulsion, full-speed ahead!
Despite the fact that Highlander Hybrid sales are down 23 percent year-to-date (just over 3k units in May), the company has publicly stated that every one of their models will have optional Hybrid Synergy Drive within a few years. They've also committed the company's vast technological resources and production expertise to reducing the cost of their hybrid system by some 50 percent.
Toyota is playing a powerful hand. If they can achieve their cost-reduction target, they'll be selling more sophisticated (and more efficient) full hybrids at roughly the same price as the rest of the industry's mild hybrids. And if Prius v3 is significantly more efficient than its predecessor, the model will maintain its role as Toyota's hybrid halo-bearer.
In any case, the Prius is now a fully fledged four-wheeled corporate emblem. And Toyota has announced a family of Prii, including a station wagon and a smaller city car. The hybrid pro-con arguments can go on endlessly in their (internet) vacuum. Toyota took a huge gamble with the Prius. It's paid off at the bottom line, and looks set to do so for many years to come.
Even mild hybrids are going to cost a ton to maintain long term. Which will have a huge effect on their resale value, once the public cottons on to this fact.
As for the Pious, cost of batteries, cost of electric motors and the cost of repairing complex electronic systems will eventually send these creations back to the recycling depot LONG before their time.
Dealers are charging 12% interest on Piouses right now “because of the cost of retraining and acquiring the necessary maintenance equipment.”
Then there’s the matter of dangerous high voltages causing cautious rescue operations, the self immolation problem, the stall on the highway problem and the fact that the Yaris gets better highway mileage.
And on and on.
Honda is right, Toyota will eventually become part of the big 3.5 if they apply this short term technology to all of their vehicles.
The storm clouds are already forming. Close to me there’s a used car lot offering 42 Piouses for discount prices. If you own one, make SURE your warranty never expires, or the car will – that’s a promise.
NO no no. Consumer reports recently made an article saying that of 12 year old Priuses, only 5% have needed a battery pack replacement so far.
http://imgur.com/HjOrSPw
Replacement genuine batteries are about $2500 but aftermarket can be had for much less and can be installed yourself.
The electric motors last forever, yes the electric coolant pump needs to be replaced every once in a while but that’s not too expensive and can be done yourself.
The instrument cluster for the 2nd gen Prius can’t go beyond 300K miles but that is fixable.
Not much goes wrong with these cars.
Mileage not as good as the Yaris? Are you high? Real world average MPG is about 47. Far above any other hybrid. More aerodynamic than a Yaris and safer too since it weighs more.
Acutally, the reliability of the Prius is very high (otherwise, sales would have plummeted), but the looming depreciation caused by the eventual failure of the battery pack should rear its ugly head soon. It depends on how Toyota handles this as to how the next-gen Prius will sell. Battery pricing, ease of replacement, recycling concerns will all figure in to whether the “halo” effect will also come from 8-10 YO Prii still ploughing the streets with replacement batteries…
Consumer reports recently made an article saying that of 12 year old Priuses, only 5% have needed a battery pack replacement so far.
http://imgur.com/HjOrSPw
Prius sales numbers defy logic. It doesn’t achieve anything near the advertised fuel mileage, cold climate performance is substandard, and depreciation will be ruinous when the warranty on the $8,000 battery approaches maturity. There must be a ton of trendy, rich, stupid people out there.
Actually it does get close to the advertised MPG. Check out the real world user data on fuelly_com and fueleconomy.gov
BTW, you don’t have to be rich to own a Prius. Used ones are under 10 grand.
Phil I am going to flat out disagree with you.
Hey there is a used car lot down here that only offers used Corvettes does that mean the Corvettes days are numbered.
This here right wing conservative non tree hugging Republican who has never voted for a Democrat in 27 years, wants a hybrid for his next vehicle if it is a hatchback and if it can carry a lawnmower like my Xb. I mention that because there is a belief on many Internet forums that the stereotypical Prius buyer is left wing environmental feel good lets make a statement anti car person.
Down here in Florida I see Prius cars everywhere. From what I have read the battery life issue is a a non issue as they are lasting more than 100,000 miles.
As for the high voltage danger issue. Give me a freaking break. That line is another variant on the small cars are all death traps argument.
Toyota is successful because: A they deserve to be, they are giving people something they want that their competition does not have.
If you really think about it that has been the secret of their success over the years. When some people wanted high quality more fuel efficient small cars in the 70s Toyota (and other imports) had them while GM, Ford and Chrysler didn’t. Hence they got a reputation for fuel efficient high quality small cars.
When some people wanted high quality cars in general in the 80’s Toyota had them, GM Ford and Chrysler didn’t. Hence Toyota acquired a reputation for high quality cars in general.
This will simply be the latest chapter of Toyota having the product that some people want that GM Ford and Chrysler simply do not have.
It is yet another reason that Toyota is going to bury at least one and possibly more of the big 3.
If you hate the Prius or hybrids, don’t buy one but trust me when I tell you there are plenty of people like me that want one. If Toyota has them and their competition does not guess what is going to happen.
# Gardiner Westbound:
June 10th, 2007 at 8:49 am
Prius sales numbers defy logic. It doesn’t achieve anything near the advertised fuel mileage, cold climate performance is substandard, and depreciation will be ruinous when the warranty on the $8,000 battery approaches maturity. There must be a ton of trendy, rich, stupid people out there.
I see the import haters are now here. The first post is identical to a post I read a few months ago in the Detroit news talk section.
But I digress. I purchased 3 2001 Priuses for my sales staff in 2002. One of the vehicles has 224k miles and the other 2 have both broken the 150k mark. Their performance has been quite good in all conditions including cold weather (Kansas).
The fuel savings on these original vehicles have way more than compensated for the larger initial outlay. So far the batteries are in good shape on all three with a minor repair on the highest mile vehicle.
Depreciation has been mentioned. Ever take a look at what used GM vehicles are worth? A Malibu costs roughly the same and I have serious doubts it could even go 200k miles much less be worth more than $50 if it did.
As far as a used car lot having 42 Priuses on their lot. This same story was in the talk section of Detroit news months ago except they had 30 back then. No used car lot in the world would continue to purchase these vehicles if they already had a number of them in their floor plan. There isn’t even a need to keep them on the lot, they move immediately on Ebay. Any car lot that operated like this would be history.
I now have a couple of Hybrid Highlanders and 2 new Priuses. I purchased these strictly as a business decision. I also purchased a Hybrid Escape which is made right here in Kansas City. So far these purchases have been a wise business decision.
Technology marches on. Toyota has done an impressive job. Rather than denigrate a company for a job well done, we should analyze their efforts and apply anything that’s positive across the board on other vehicles. Hybrids may not be the answer but at least Toyota is trying something versus running to the government complaining that fuel milage regulations are hurting their Suburban, H2, Expedition etc sales.
If you wish to complain about a misguided effort for energy independence look at the E85 scam GM is running. There’s a loophole as big as an aircraft carrier to allow GM to skirt around fleet gas mileage rules. This would make a nice TTAC editorial.
It’s sad that the haters must taint this site too. (:
Bill.
Gardiner Westbound advertised mileage? No cars get their advertised mileage. The Prius is still probably the highest real world mileage car you can get. Their owners are consistently getting low to mid 40ish miles per gallon.
This replace the battery issue hasn’t come up in the real world.
A Prius owner who posts under the name “pool man” in the detroit new forum posted the following which I think is relevant:
“The Prius has been sold in Japan since the end of 1997. It’s been sold in the U.S. since August of 2000. That’s almost 10 years for the Japan market and almost 7 years for us here in the U.S……..Testing by both Toyota and the DOE has shown that the Prius can get up to 160K miles of use and show no degradation in battery performance. Finally, though the cost of the battery pack has come down and is now, as you say, $3000 (just under, actually)”
So if you are waiting for for battery replacement issues to kill the Prius you may be waiting for something that will never happen.
I can assure you that although many people may like a different car than what you like that does not make them stupid.
Paul makes an insightful point: the hybrid market is splitting in two parts. Full hybrids which Toyota dominates, and mild hybrids, which all vehicles will incorporate to some degree.
I hope that insight isn’t lost in another pointless pro- vs. con- hybrid debate.
“This here right wing conservative non tree hugging Republican who has never voted for a Democrat in 27 years, wants a hybrid for his next vehicle ”
Same story here. Sure I’d like to buy a Tahoe just to make the eco’s mad, but what’s the point of hauling all that steel around for nothing? Plus I’m too cheap.
My daily driver is a small, 4 cylinder, manual tranny (domestic) car, I get 30 mpg. This will be driven as long, or longer than possible. When I look at next car I would pay a 4k premium for a plugin hydrid. I live 8 miles from work this would eliminate most of my commuting oil usage.
Note: 4k premium must be on top of low base price – I don’t want to buy nav, etc, too cheap. Also I want functional (boring) styling, no buck-rodgers crap – are you listening Chevy Volt designers?
My comment on “buy American”: when you buy a low-mpg US made vehicle you might help trade deficit (depends – some Toyotas made in US, many parts now made in China etc) but you hurt trade deficit because you will buy a lot more imported oil (oil production in US is nearly fixed in mid term, more use = more imports).
Here’s what I don’t get – and I think it’s a point that’s been largely overlooked in the hybrid debate:
What is point of any alternative to a traditional internal combustion engine? Is it to reduce fuel consumption? Reduce overall cost of ownership? Save the planet? Feel good about doing something symbolic for the environment? Depending on your political stripe, these may be worthwhile goals – but they are frequently at cross-purposes to each other.
From what I’ve read (here on TTAC and elsewhere) the TCO on a Prius doesn’t really make sense if your primary goal is to save money on fuel – at least until gasoline is northward of $4/gallon. Braggin’ rights for your green sensibilities are a different story – nothing says “I care” more than buying a Prius. Unless you buy a Segway for your daily commute.
If we put a concern for reducing our carbon footprint as job #1, there’s a case to be made for diesels. Frankly, I’d buy a diesel Wrangler in a heartbeat if I only could – the change in the EPA emissions specs means that the Wrangler CRD is only available in Canada and ROW (Rest of World). Diesel is a proven technology, reduces fuel consumption (ever look at the MPG ratings for diesel versus gasoline?), and doesn’t put us behind the environmental 8-ball with the issue of what to do with all those used batteries, once your Prius goes off to the eventual, inevitable automobile graveyard.
I’m not saying gasoline/battery hybrids are a bad idea. But I am saying that there’s more to this story than meets the eye. Unfortunately, in our sound-byte culture, truth and facts often get lost in the shuffle. The Prius has become the car célèbre for the green movement. Sadly, too often the muddled asses yearing to drive cheap overlook the more complex issues of fuel economy (not to mention the skewed EPA ratings of yore vs. the New! Imrpoved! more accurate ones) and fall for a simplistic answer to a complex question.
OK I will come out of the hybrid closet. I own a Prius as well as an E46 BMW and a GTO.
The Prius is my primary commuter car (I average 100 mi/day in my job). This is the car that is run all year ’round, keeping the miles off the other ones. I buy them new and run them for 10-12 years. I shopped it against several other small fuel-efficient cars and it worked for me, both space-wise and price-wise (#2 was the Honda Fit, but the dealer was sooooo obnoxious that I could not work with them.)
I run this car at the same highway speeds I run my other cars (75-80mph range) and get around 44-45mpg in the winter and 48-50mpg in the summer. This is calculated off my gas receipts and tallys well against the car’s computer (within a few tenths mpg anyway.) In case you’re wondering, I live in central NH, so we do get winter here!
The other surprising usefulness of this car is the space. I have hauled more than I thought I ever could inside the car. People who have sit in the backseat are amazed at the room (my teenagers prefer to ride in it vs the E46’s rear seat!)
A friend calls my Prius “creepy future car”. I use that name for it all the time. Toyota is not my favorite car company; I find the car a bit soulless. It could also use better driver ergonomics, especially the front seats!
On the whole, as long as it keeps running well I will drive it for a long time.
When diesel locomotives started making inroads into the steam engine monopoly, diesel hating and bad-mouthing was rampant. (Technological) change is inevitable, and some folks have a harder time accepting change than others.
One thing I think the article overlooks is that the original, Gen-1 Prius was actually not a major hit in the US. It was too small, too tinny, not useful enough for the “average” person. It looked cheap, it drove cheap.
But unlike The big 2.75, Toyota doesn’t just ditch something that doesn’t work or let it stagnate for decades and wither away.
They worked hard to refine their initial design, bumping the Prius to the right-sized sensation that we all know and (most of us) love. The fact that it is a hit is no accident.
The Prius is a very good Toyota. They get incredible mileage for the size of vehicle they are (I’ve gotten a consistent 50mpg in Florida in my father’s Prius), but they are dead boring. You eventually realize that you are getting 50mpg partly because you’ve lost the will to push it.
Hybrid tech is going to be big for the next 20 years (or until the electric cars become feasible). What we need is an EXCITING hybrid, which as far as I can tell is yet to be built. I wish Honda would build one, but I think that was part of the point with the top of the line Accord hybrid and it didn’t work out. Maybe BMW will? In any case, I’m waiting for that day to come.
Brad Kozak;
You bring up many issues.
1. Yes there are many sides to the pro- anti- prius argument, this mirrors our energy policy. Do we want to cut green house gases, decrease oil imports, make gas cheaper so we can burn lots lots more of it, or use tax payer money to enrich corn ethanol?
2. From what I’ve seen TCO is about a wash. But gas is going higher and Toyota is cutting the hybrid premium. Plus most cars are bought for non-economic reasons anyway – who much commuting time do you save with a Corvette ;-)
3. The battery argument is a red herring, there is re-cycle plan in place.
4. Diesels also are tough competition, and have won so far in Europe. But the competition continues. If Honda can pull off the clean-diesel-with-no-added-urea trick watch out.
5. Hybrids are cleaner for CO, hydrocarbons, etc because the engine only runs part of the time. Good for places like LA.
6. Plug In Hydrids could be huge advance. Problem with EV’s was that most people only drive x miles per day but sometimes drive much more. With plug in hybrid you could cut costs much more (cost of charging battery per mile much less than gas).
Hybrids are mostly a free market product – whether they win or lose we’ll see. Programs like ethanol are government subsidized boondoggles for now.
#3, battery recycling has been solved. I believe over 90% of a NiMH or lithium battery pack is recyclable and same goes for a typical lead acid car battery.
@philbailey – You know what gets even better mileage than a Yaris? A Smart Car, or a small motorcycle. What’s your point?
Hybrids probably aren’t a long-term solution, but it seems to be one of the more effective ones for now, and if nothing else, at least Toyota’s trying. Besides, if most of the cars they make are for people who hate to drive, why not have those people use less gas – more for those of us who’ll appreciate it more?
Smart cars don’t get that good of mileage because their aerodynamics suck
The great thing about the Prius is watching people ridicule anyone who buys one and watching them get furious that it is a raging success. It’s like to a certain segment of the population the Prius’ mere existence is somethow un-American. Sorry, neanderthals, but fuel efficient vehicles are here to stay. I cannot wait to see what the reaction will be in ten to fifteen years when most Americans are forced to drive around in the future equivalent of an Aygo.
I can only imagine the laughter that must have filled the board rooms of the Big 2.5 when Honda and Toyota began selling their hybrids. It was probably much like the laughter about the little Japanese econo boxes in the 70s. Well, they are not laughing anymore.
Qwerty that is true but for some reason many people seem to find offense at what others drive be it a Prius, an SUV, a Hummer, an Xb etc.
Diesel have worse cold weather problems than hybrid. Yet another anti-hybrid myth busted.
People who get mad at what others drive deserve the overdue medical problems they are going to get from their own insanity. Isn’t it enough to have a rant about the way others drive, or the hatred expressed on many bumper stickers?
I may be concerned about the ultimate environmental bargain being made by saving a little gas at the cost of building the batteries, but I don’t get mad about them! Then again, I hope the new CAFE standards are changed so that automakers have to offer high mileage cars, but I don’t want it legislated what average the fleet gets. Seriously, offer a 125hp version of a regular four door and leave it at that. If no one buys it, then so be it.
The more people drive high mileage cars, including Priii, the better, as far as I’m concerned, due to less $ to nasty oil nations, less CO2, less other pollution, etc. Just don’t make me drive one. I love straight internal combustion. It has character.
A lot of incorrect information has been posted …
Firstly, despite internal Toyota documents citing that the Prius project had a small chance of success, the fact that the project even began in the first place is a testament to the long-term vision that Toyota executives had. Toyota invested billions into the Prius project because they thought that long-term the environment and fuel efficiency would become important issues in the future. As you can see, they were right.
Secondly, in 1999 Honda was the first to have hybrids on the market in North America. Globally, Toyota was in fact the world’s first automaker to put a hybrid to market because the original Prius came out in 1997 in Japan. In North America, the Prius came out a short time after the Insight.
Also, the idea that mild hybrids yield a greater return on investment is questionable. Initially they may seem like the better deal, but long term (6+ years) a full hybrid wins out, especially with gas prices continuing their uphill climb. Plus, sales so far of all mild hybrids have been rather dull. The best selling hybrids on the market, other than Toyota models happen to be mostly full hybrids.
Reliability and maintenance are non-issues on the Prius. As a matter of fact, there are several Prius taxis in New York that have hit over 300,000 miles. The first taxi that did it in New York was still running on original batteries. Toyota claims that the original batteries will last the life of the vehicle, and for them to last 300,000+ miles I would think is proof enough of their durability. For the average person, 300,000 miles is well over 10 years worth of driving. Toyota has gone on record to say that so far all the Priuses on the road are running on their original batteries.
Recycling the batteries also is not an issue. Toyota will pay *YOU* $200 to give them your old hybrid batteries and they will fully recycle them.
Also let’s not forget Toyota’s hybrids all carry an 8 year/100,000 mile hybrid system warranty.
To anyone that thinks the high voltages are a problem, Toyota’s hybrids in the event of an accident automatically cut off power to the hybrid system, and most rescue workers have already recieved training on how to specifically deal with hybrid vehicles.
Both of these paired editorials are right to observe that the other automakers seem to have conceded the mpg wars to the Prius for the next couple of years. To me, this is disappointing. I had hoped that competition would be spurred by the Prius’s hot sales and image (and you’re right to call it a halo car, it’s steering Toyota’s whole image in a greenwashed direction). And I had hoped that this would translate into Toyota, or another hybrid-auto maker, pushing the envelope a little further on the technology, toward plug-in hybrids with more capacious batteries that can be used as pure or almost-pure electric cars for short-distance driving. The CalCars proof of concept shows how easy this option would be to add. For me, this would be the deciding factor that convinced me that all the extra mechanical complexity, weight, and boringness of the Prius was worth the trade.
To me, mild hybrids make little sense compared to Toyota’s full hybrid technology.
Mild hybrids have the same true disadvantages of full hybrids (hauling around extra gear and batteries) but obtain a 20-25% improvement in MPG compared to a 100% improvement possible with full hybrid (if you design the car around the system, not “bolt ‘er on there and see what she’ll do.”)
Toyota are batting 1000, while lite hybrids are sitting in the dugout with broken legs.
The economics of hybrids have debated ad nauseum but the real uglies are the resale of spent Prius cars and the service thereof. I predict ebay auctions of dead ones for parts alone. The civic, Camry and Accord hybrids at least share sheet metal with the regular versions.
Clean diesel technology will win because nothing beats it for efficiency, durability, serviceability, and common sense.
Diesels in SUV and trucks would go a long way toward reducing demand in countries where people have a choice. In Europe diesels abound, in the US few cars are available and gas stations don’t always carry the fuel. This needs to change. If they can shove gasohol down our throats they should be able to distibute Diesel more readily.
“but the looming depreciation caused by the eventual failure of the battery pack should rear its ugly head soon.”
Lies, or at least, FUD. First-gen US Priuses haven’t had battery packs age out; neither will this generation.
I don’t see hybrid maintenance costs as being an issue. It’s $3000 for a replacement pack which you MIGHT need once in the car’s lifetime – compared to the $2000 my dad spent last year to do 90K service on his Camry, it’s nothing. Electric motors rarely ever fail, and I bet that the understressed 4-pot will never, ever need any serious work, unlike most high-strung contemporary motors.
As for mild hybrids vs diesels, I don’t see a problem of combining the two. Diesels typically need big starters; replacing the starter-alternator with an on-the-crank 20-30hp electric motor makes perfect sense. Good brushless outrunners weigh less than a regular starter. All you need is a relatively small deep-discharge 48v battery pack.
I predict that in about 5-10 years auto manufacturers will catch up to the times and almost all conventional cars will have a crank-mounted electric motor, a la Insight. A well-integrated system can actually cost less than the non-hybrid conventional design.
Actually, the Prius batteries (and other hybrids) do “wear out” over time, but because they were over engineered to produce more capacity then they needed to run, it hasn’t become a huge issue yet.
see http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/hev/end_of_life_test_1.pdf for details
With the Big 2.57 staggering against the ropes I see Toyota’s success with a the Prius as being a solid shot to the liver. Not a knockout, but another painful blow that takes them a step in the direction of falling to the mat.
Like the full hybrid, the value of the mild hybrid will depend on how you drive. I’d like to see more field experience with them.
However, I noticed in a TV ad yesterday, featuring the hybrid Aura that the fine print says, “limited availability.” If you’re not selling them to all comers, 8 years after Honda brought them to the market, it hardly seems like much of a commitment to the technology. Or to good fuel economy.
I’m waiting for the introduction of a large number of “clean” diesel cars in the next few years. There are lots of us who wouldn’t touch the Prius, but would buy one of the new diesels in a heartbeat.
Another well written spin-free unPC article that goes bravely where BIG Media is increasingly unwilling (and often unable) to go.
Thanks, Paul!
Ah, the Prius. I have to admit I am in the that ugly group that feels about them the way some people feel about Hummers. Oh well.
That said, if Toyota can truly bring the price premium down 50% that will have a chilling effect on the market. There would be almost zero reason to consider a mild hybrid. I am all for increasing efficiency – because I’m cheap, not b/c I want to make a statement – and that would surely be a kick in the industries pants.
So go for it Toyota. I am not against tech innovation, its good for everyone. I am against people telling (showing) me how they are more morally evolved than me, when as someone pointed out earlier, it is a murkier issue. And they have most likely never even considered the cross-purpose issues.
Even mild hybrids are going to cost a ton to maintain long term. Which will have a huge effect on their resale value, once the public cottons on to this fact.
As for the Pious, cost of batteries, cost of electric motors and the cost of repairing complex electronic systems will eventually send these creations back to the recycling depot LONG before their time.
Dealers are charging 12% interest on Piouses right now “because of the cost of retraining and acquiring the necessary maintenance equipment.”
Then there’s the matter of dangerous high voltages causing cautious rescue operations, the self immolation problem, the stall on the highway problem and the fact that the Yaris gets better highway mileage.
It shocking that in this day and age that some still haven’t brought themselves up to date on the reality of what the Prius does, how it drives, the technology behind the NiMH packs, etc, etc. It’s as if we never left 2002.
The real story about ‘payback’ ‘mild hybrids’ and new ‘clean diesel’
First buying any new vehicle is a bad idea if the goal is to reduce the cost of transportation. Assuming you do not need a truck or SUV or midsized sedan then a USED compact auto is the best choice. It will cost you the least amount over whatever time frame you choose.
But if you want to buy a new vehicle then
.. a Corolla/Civic/Cobalt will cost more than a Yaris/Fit;
.. a TCH/Jetta TDI/Civic hybrid will cost more than an ICE version of same – initially;
Given the present cost of fuel a new vehicle buyer of a hybrid over a gasser or a diesel over a gasser will face the following decision.
..pay an automaker $3000 extra upfront; save $600/yr in fuel cost
..buy a traditional ICE gasser and pay an oil company $3000 in extra fuel cost over the next 5 years.
Either way it’s going to cost $3000 in 5 years. Who do you want you money going to?
GS650G, the Prius has been out on the market for a decade, and there has not been any word of “dead ones” on auctions or Priuses with dead batteries.
You’re also wrong about diesel technology. A diesel engine costs more than a comparable gasoline engine, and it’s also more expensive to service and maintain a diesel versus a gasoline engine. This is especially true with modern diesels, many of which use a urea solution to clean emissions, and that solution needs to be replenished and maintained, kind of like windshield washer fluid. The diesels that make sense are the ones that have simple emission-cleaning systems which last the life of the engine.
Also in Europe the cost of a diesel engine over a gas one is not a big issue simply due to the very expensive gasoline prices. When gas reaches $5-6 a gallon in the US then diesels, and when automakers reduce the cost gap between diesel and gasoline engines then they will make more sense.
As of now, diesel engines are great for specific applications, but they do not beat out gasoline or hybrids all around.
Wow, it sure seems like I got to this party late. Drat! But thank you, Paul. Nice, insightful (no pun intended) article.
I am heartened by the people here who have acknowledged the Prius and particularly those who have sought to correct those posters who just haven’t educated themselves yet. Saves me the work!
I still have my 2004 Prius, and just passed the 50,000 mile mark. No major problems. In fact, I love my car. I use it to haul stuff home from “Lowes-Depot” every week. It’s my little pick-em-up-truck, except that it’s covered, and I can carry the fellas to lunch without anybody having to ride outside!
My own fuel economy is as follows: The computer is usually about 2 MPG “generous” when compared to mathematical calculations at fill-up time.
So I stopped calculating long ago. But I make a mental note of the computer readout at each fillup. I shoot for 47 MPG or higher. That’s a consistent real-world 45 MPG. In a car that I drive in stop/go traffic about 50% of the time, and in 65-75 mpg traffic about the other 50% of the time.
When my MPG drops below 45 (on the computer screen), then I either need to slow down and drive more conservatively, or I need to check my tire pressure. Usually, it’s the latter…
That’s the other unappreciated benefit to the Prius. It’s a hatch. It carries a ton of stuff that a Camry, Accord, Impala or Avalon would have a hard time taking.
My own best is a 43″ Flat Screen from Best Buy, my golf clubs, a briefcase, and two pizzas. Oh and @ 45 mpg loaded up.
I learned a lot both from the editorial and the comments. As unenthusiastic about hybrids as I am, I am happy to learn that Toyota has blazed such a successful trail with the Prius, and I am glad that they are selling well. I hope the Prius inspires competition from conventional ICE.
As a Prius Driver from 2001, here are some noteworthy things.
My main battery was replaced at 83411 miles under warranty. Here was what the repair form stated:
” P3000, P3006 UNEVEN CHARGE IN HV BATTERY. REPLACED HV BATTERY, DISCHARGE OLD BATTERY FOR SHIPPING. 40G DONE, EXTRA TIME BUS BARS GLUED ON, SWAP BATTERY ECU, SMR RELAY ASSY, VENT TUBES, TEMP SENSORS AND WIRES, INSTALL GROUND WIRE, PWER WIRES.” This is a big expensive part and the repair time is lengthy, especially since most dealerships only have one or two Prius qualified technicians and the battery is installed securely for safety, not ease of replacement. Not until 2008 will the warranties be expiring on the first generation Prius’s, so the real test is coming. The critics have a point here, but not one that spells doom for the Prius or hybrids.
Now I have had two Camry’s (’87 and ’88) that finally had engine block (small) cracks after very high mileage. It is clear to me that all cars eventually reach an end of use and at some point any repair is not cost effective. It’s how much use you get out of the car and the Prius is as good as any other $22k-26k car. Everyone can stop for 10 minutes tomorrow and count the percentage of cars on the road that are over 8 years old. Just do it and think about your results, then think about how old your vehicle is.
One overlooked point is that “recycling” a hybrid HV battery is like recycling old jewelery. You get it fixed or reconditioned, you do not recycle something still worth upwards of $1000 dollars for free. The individual Panasonic/Toyota NIMH cells can be split out, the bad cells fixed or reconditioned and the repair cost drops. Trouble is, that the batteries are so reliable, that this market may never get off the ground. (e.g. The cracked engine block replacement market is NOT a Toyota specialty.) If I have to replace a Prius Battery on my own nickel, no way the dealer is getting $1000 dollar item for $200….but I am not going to fiddle around with a 300 Volt man killer either so I have to cross that bridge when I come to it.
Last note-I bought the Prius because I wanted a boring (white), small (one to four person), city only, reliable car that got the best possible gas mileage for a boring, but long, daily commute. Use the family land barge for everything else. I thought the hybrid part was only sensible for maximizing MPG only. I did not realize how low the pollution was till I found out about the Prius having a fuel bladder rather than a conventional gas tank. I never intended for it to be the vehicle my kids thought was a lot better than the ’99 Camry. I never realized that a MPG screen makes you enjoy big SUV’s roaring by ($$$$-goodby). I did think that it was a conventional car with a rather exotic transmission….still do. I never have made much of a point about it to other people, but dang, the Prius ended up being a “statement” vehicle to everyone else.
has anyone read this months Evo? probably not since this is primarily an american website. well they have a feature on the Prius and how it stacks up against a similarly small car, the Fiat Panda 100hp. basically its about what its like to drive blah blah blah but the really interesting bit is the fuel economy of both cars. now for a 502 mile trip in both cars at the same time the prius gets 46.98mpg , the panda 43.05mpg. now the really interesting part comes when you work out just how far you’ve got to drive the prius at current petrol prices to make your money back 1,102,850 miles. yes for the prius to make sense you’ve got to go the equivalent of the moon and back twice.
Price of panda= £9995 Prius = £20,000
with petrol at 95p a litre
DrBrian,
The Fiat Panda a “similarly small car”? Do you enjoy lying, or are you really just this confused? Looks like a Honda Fit in the pictures I can find.
Fiat Panda I believe is smaller than a Honda Fit. Thr Prius is huge compared to a Panda. That would be like comparing the Chevy Impala with the Aveo.
I drive a Scion 1st gen Xb. I consistently get about 31 Mpg for a considerably smaller car. The Prius owners seem to cnsistently get at least 10 more miles per gallon. I did the math, in my situation I would save around 200 gallons of gas a year. Its not enough savings for me to switch cars now, but when it is simply time to buy a new car in a few years I will switch and the savings will go straight into my pocket.
4 seats, big enough boot for a weekly family shop/weekend away hence family car.
The panda is that proto-european car that is never supposed to see a highway. Apples and oranges; might as well compare the Prius to a motor scooter. Whats funny is it still beat the Panda.
In Europe cars like that work well enough, in America we need cars that have at least some flexibility to handle long road trips and stuff. Public transportation is not so developed over here.
Johnson:
As a matter of fact, there are several Prius taxis in New York that have hit over 300,000 miles. The first taxi that did it in New York was still running on original batteries. Toyota claims that the original batteries will last the life of the vehicle, and for them to last 300,000+ miles I would think is proof enough of their durability.
i live in nyc and i’ve never seen a prius taxi. it seems doubtful that the taxi & limo commission would allow anything as small as a prius. the nyc housing and environmental dept. fleets have a large number of prii including 1st gen models that are still on the street. i have seen some highlander hybrid taxis and many escape hybrid cabs.
4 seats, big enough boot for a weekly family shop/weekend away hence family car.
Funny, your first statement was “similarly small”, which everybody knows is a lie. Now you’re basically putting all cars in which 4 people can squeeze in the same category, which as already pointed out, means you might as well compare the Aveo to the Impala head-to-head. The Prius is HUGE compared to the Fit, which as it turns out is bigger still than your Panda.
I know it’s not pleasant being exposed as nothing but a FUDder. Try to get by.
The well-known Prius taxis are actually in Vancouver.
I have seen Prius taxis in New York at least a few times. It’s not that small a car. And it looks great in taxi yellow, unlike those blighted Escapes.
i live in nyc and i’ve never seen a prius taxi. it seems doubtful that the taxi & limo commission would allow anything as small as a prius. the nyc housing and environmental dept. fleets have a large number of prii including 1st gen models that are still on the street. i have seen some highlander hybrid taxis and many escape hybrid cabs.
Do a Google..you’l find it. There was a large controversy about them last year I believe. The TLC wouldn’t allow them and the medallian owner took it to court I belive. ( former NYC hack )
It pays to verify what you read on the internet. According to Whatcar:
-The Panda is about 3 feet shorter than a Prius (3578 mm/ 141 inches vs. 4,450 mm / 175 inches.) The Panda is a much smaller car.
-The Panda has less cargo space (206 liters vs. 408 liters of trunk space with the rear seats up.) Again, the Panda is a much smaller car.
The fuel economy of the Panda with the 100 hp gas motor is actually a fair bit lower than it is for the Prius. City/ highway/ average MPG in Imperial gallons — Panda @ 32.5/ 55.3/ 43.4 for the Panda vs. 56.5/ 67.3/ 65.7 for the Prius. (Multiply by 5/6ths for an approximate calculation in US gallons.) In addition, the Panda is quicker, with a claimed 0-60 time of 9.5 seconds vs. 10.9 for the Prius, so it’s reasonable to expect that all things being equal, a car with better acceleration is going to use more fuel.
A better comparison using another FIAT sold in the UK would be the Stilo wagon (4516 mm long, 510 liters of trunk space with the rear seat up) with a 1.9 liter turbodiesel. The acceleration time of the FIAT is also similar to the Prius (0-60 mph in 11.3 seconds). Still, the FIAT’s economy falls short, particularly in town, with city/highway/average economy of 42.2/ 62.8/ 53.3 mpg (Imperial).
“Gap” between Diesel and Petrol:
VW TSI 2.0 Litre Turbo Petrol – 200hp / 207 Lb/ft
VW TDI 2.0 Litre Turbo Diesel – 170hp / 258 Lb/ft
Seems pretty even to me.
Congrads. to Toyota for the success of the Prius. They took a risk and it payed off for them. The Prius turned into a social statement car however it gets overlooked that is a very good car. People that I know love their hybrids wheither its the Prius, Civic or Camry.
Who knows what is next hybrid diesels?