In the Dirty Harry movie Sudden Impact, Jennifer Spencer (Sandra Locke) confronts one of the gang members who raped her sister and left her for dead. Even though the cornered perp is looking at the business end of a gun held by a woman who has already killed every other conspirator (shooting them once in the genitals, once in the heart), the gang leader taunts her executioner. "So how's your slut sister?"
Hate rapists. Love the ‘tude. Here's a felon who sees Death's blade scything towards her and mocks its master. Compare that attitude with The Big 2.8 of late. These beleaguered automakers are busy advertising their po-faced passenger cars as highway high mileage champs and Camcordima-crushers. Puh-lease.
While I'm sure there are plenty of readers ready to pronounce Detroit's passenger cars superior to their transplanted competition, what IS the point? That train has left the station. The Big 2.8 would have to crank out a decade's worth of mechanically bulletproof, class-leading cars to regain the mid-size momentum from well-satisfied Toyondissans.
News flash: Detroit doesn't have a decade. As Ford's Presidente de las Américas Mark Fields recently admitted "Time is not our friend."
Gentlemen, it's true: you're screwed. Your margins are in pickups and SUV's, the trucks ain't movin' in big numbers no mo', you ain't got the time to change focus (so to speak) and you're selling three-quarter-assed transplant wanna-be's based on price. On top of all that, you're busy rushing more milquetoast motors to market.
Hey, it's the ‘70's all over again! Gas prices spiked and Detroit didn't have anything genuinely competitive to offer, save market share. Gas prices have risen again and Detroit STILL doesn't have anything competitive to offer. And their passenger car market share is history.
Back in the day, Detroit destroyed their vehicles by trying to compete on the imports' terms, sticking diesels into piss-ant little Cadillacs for Christ's sake. And now they're doing it again.
Yep, they're building a whole range of slow, bland, watered-down versions of their once all-conquering SUVs. If ever a vehicle lacked edge, the Edge is it. And what's a honking great Buick somethingorother doing with a weedy V6 under the hood? Trying to be a bigger Honda Pilot? Fuhgeddaboutit.
More generally, why is Detroit trying to be Toyota? OK, The Big 2.8's gas-guzzlers aren't selling. That really blows. But here's an idea: go out and sell them!
The current generation Ford Explorer is safe, cheap, comfortable, smooth, powerful, versatile and handles like a dream. So when was the last time you saw an ad for a Ford Explorer that didn't scream CASH BACK! DEALER INCENTIVES! ZERO PERCENT APR! LEASE A NEW FORD EXPLORER FOR $199 A MONTH!
C'mon guys, you're staring down the barrel of bankruptcy (at best). Stop selling cars like Ginsu knives! Just look death straight in the eye and tell it to F-off. All I'm seeing is market-reactive, mileage-related come-ons. How about some ads telling people to forget fuel efficiency and buy big?
"Excuse me sir, you don't seriously think a few more mpg's is going to save the planet do you? Life is short! Do you want to spend it DOWN THERE, eye-to-eye with all those passenger car people? Speaking of which, have you ever wondered what happens when an old school SUV hits one of those new school compacts? Of COURSE you have.
"Yes, I know: gas is expensive. What if I can show you how to save enough money on the purchase of your SUV to pay for that gas? You LOVE your SUV. You give that up and the next thing you know you'll be eating soybean burgers and drinking white wine spritzers. We build some GREAT SUV's. Do yourself a favor. Do US a favor. Buy one."
Meanwhile and in any case, the fact that the Chrysler 300 was a hit seems to have escaped Detroit's import-addled attention. Hello? Can Toyota, Honda, Nissan, KIA, etc. build a big, bad, trad American sedan for the masses? I wouldn't recommend waiting to find out.
Or, for that matter, trying to sell [non-fleet] American motorists more lily-livered Euro-styled front wheel-drive mileagemobiles. Go wake up your design teams and show us what real ‘Merican metal is all about. What? You killed the Cadillac 16 and Buick Velite in favor of green machines? When did hara-kiri hit Detroit?
Will a more ballsy strategy work? Hell no. The Big 2.8 have too many dealers, brands and overheads; their continued survival demands all blockbusters, all the time. That just ain't gonna happen. But what the Hell. When you're moments away from the big sleep, it's better to go out like the Dirty Harry villain, showing a little class. OK then, style.
Thanks for the amusing editorial. I’ll bet you drive their PR people nutty with your ideas.
While there are true gems buried in this editorial… I must say: asking for all of this is like reliving my last RS4-centric wet dream – it ain’t going to happen.
The attitude you’re looking for surely can’t come from the boardrooms and PR-heads behind the 2.8 – no way. The fire, the sheer lunacy, that’s all too expensive, and thus, thrown to the wayside. Class? Style? No, no, no… that’s not in the budget (although advertising firmly is).
I disagree too with the comment that this is the ’70s all over again. It is fiercely not. Yes, the price of oil threatens to loom over us, but there will be no shortages, no rationing – there are still cars that are fuel-efficient enough, and budgets that can support rising fuel costs. But you’re right, “American” cars may not survive this.
The solution is more gracefully put in a few of the past editorials, which pointed to the lost identities of their offerings, and advised strongly to pare down the selection. Why on earth does Jeep have so many models? Why would I purchase a Five Hund- I mean Taurus – over a Fusion?
Someone long ago lost the ability to keep things simple.
While I’d love to see dealerships completely ignore fuel efficiency and sell their strengths, you’ve got to remember – the 2.8 isn’t in a corner just yet. They’re still in the process of running and hiding, chased around by market trends. As followers, they have proven to fail where Toyonda and the others have succeeded.
Evolution is a decision: change or die. I think we’re almost at the point where we can determine which of the two will happen. Just not yet.
Dreams tend to be erratic and unpredictable, so if the Explorer handles like one (which I doubt), then I don’t want one anyway.
philbailey: "…if the Explorer handles like one (which I doubt), then I don’t want one anyway." You see? Ford's gotta get people like Phil into an Explorer. (Read my review.) What about puppy dogging? Give in-market buyers an Explorer for a week! Show some damn imagination.
RF: Amusing article….almost a combo Big 2.8 deathwatch ! However your continued rant against GM and Ford without giving them even $.01 of credit for RECENT good efforts is not quite on the mark. Additionally, you assume that Toyota is going to continue to grow without scale issues—I would posit that this is a flawed assumption given thier recent reliability track record Americans have already given their vote for unreliable bland styled vehicles. Fact—-The Edge is selling very well and the Enclave appears to be off to a good start—the goal is to build cars people want. On the former point GM and Ford appear on the right track. Fact—Ford and GM stock performance has been outstanding over the past 12 months—–guess there are still some people out there who feel that they ARE on the right track and aren’t 6 feet under just yet.
“guess there are still some people out there who feel that they ARE on the right track and aren’t 6 feet under just yet. ”
Too bad none of those people are in charge of rating bonds.
No shortages and rationing…..yet.
It’s coming, you better believe it. $4/gallon national average by next summer (side note, I correctly predicted $3+/gal for this summer). Google “Peak Oil” for why.
Here’s what I can’t for the life of me figure out – Why are the big 2.8 still marketing clunky pushrod engines? What decade is it?
And if real ‘Mukans wanted European designs, they’d go buy one, not some half-baked Euro transplant / badge engineered / “inspired” piece of metal.
On the Ford Edge… I have yet to see one on the road here. Period. Even the crappy and fugly Nitro is selling better. Not sure why.
RF
Youv’e got a good sales strategy,idea I agree that its time to give up trying to beat the transplants at thier own game.
The problem being,is the top management at the big 2.8 are in denial.Market share sinks,despite promises from Rick W. Impalas are going to fleets.We are still building cars that people arn’t buying.
On the positive side the big SUVs and pickups are holding thier own [folks are getting used to high gas prices]
I don’t know why the big 2.8 arn’t standing on the roof tops shouting, we build the best big honkin trucks in the world,if you want one,go buy one.
I would like RF or one of TTACs informed readers to answer this question Why is GM stock rising?
I’m sincere when I ask cause I really don’t know the answer I’m sure we got some folks that do.
…..And instead of whining about how expensive it will be to purchase gas for the Explorer, think of it as the best damn plantfood generator you can buy. Just think how big the deer are going to get…And…Your in luck cuz the hood of the Explorer can handle hauling 500 lbs of deer…You can also tell your wifey that you are going to need a bigger gunrack. The price of gas will be offset by the larger amount of venison you will have come deer season. This aint no CR-V wussmobile…..
Great piece, RF.
Maybe Detroit should sell each SUV with a “Free Gas for a Year” deal.
Or if you buy a big one, Free Gas for the Term of your Lease.”
But seriously, folks, the big 2.8 (or whatever the hell they are) have always been in reactive mode. They rarely lead and are not about to do anything very different because the useless MBAs running these companies have had all the vision, creativity and imagination trained out of them. Their mantra is never do anything different, anything that will rock the boat, anything with a remote chance of risk, and never never take a long view when the next quarter is so much more important.
Detroit is in a box. Even if they could make all the inventories of SUVs and models that don’t sell vanish tomorrow afternoon, and replace them with world-class, best of breed cars and stellar service it would take a decade to gain mindshare with consumers. The hole they’ve dug is too deep, people’s memories too long, and doing what they needs to be done is just too hard for people with no imagination or vision.
umterp85: Granted, the Edge IS doing well. According to our pal Danny Howes over at the DTN: "Annual sales are pegged to reach 120,000, up from the original goal of 100,000. In May, Edge outsold segment-leading Honda Pilot, as well as Toyota Highlander, Nissan Murano and the Michigan-built GMC Acadia and the Saturn Outlook." Yes, but… "…cannibalizing sales from the mainstay Explorer SUV amid soaring gas prices isn't necessarily tantamount to being a guaranteed hit, either." In 2006, Ford sold 179,229 Explorers. Add in the number of predicted Edge sales and the total STILL doesn't equal the '96 Explorer's total sales (402,663). Mikey: "Expectations that it may get higher-than-expected concessions from negotiations with the United Auto Workers [UAW] union are likely behind the current run for shares of General Motors Corp. (GM), Citigroup analyst Jon Rogers said in a note to clients, as the stock continues to outperform the market and defy historical valuation levels. "But he also thinks there is plenty of room for disappointment, particularly due to estimates that GM shares already reflect roughly 40% of a possible health care deal. This is equivalent to US$7 per share of an estimated US$18 per share a healthcare deal along the lines of Goodyear’s (GT) would be worth." (http://transport.seekingalpha.com/article/39836)
RF
Thanks for the info.I personaly don’t think that us giving up 30% wages would fix or break the big 2.8.
Good luck to those folks investing in big 2.8 shares
If your waiting for a Delphi deal it aint gonna happen, without chapter11
For one, I hear what RF is saying: Get creative, Detroit!
For example, this past weekend, BMW held an event nearby where for every mile you “test drive” a new Bimmer, they will donate $1 to a breast cancer fund. You can drive any 2 of 15 different cars–with no salesperson along–just you, the BMW and 15 miles of test loop ahead.
After driving a Z4, followed by a 335i, my reactions are: The Z4 was nice enough. The 335i was awesome. [Edit: And BMW followed up with an e-mail survey of what I thought about the experience, etc.]
Forget the warm-fuzzy crap about helping to raise money for a good cause; BMW has now planted a seed in my mind. No longer am I thinking my “fun” retirement car will be something like a Miata (MX5). Now my (wet) dreams include a (possibly used) BMW along the lines of the 335i.
Think about that. From just a few miles alone with a car, my entire outlook has changed. You can bet your sweet [twin] turbo that when the time comes, a BMW will be high on my list for a fun car.
Detroit could do similar things–where they get asses in the seats of their offerings, with no sales pressure.
“Here are the keys Mr. Swanson, enjoy the Fusion–we’ll see you in half an hour…”
“…cannibalizing sales from the mainstay Explorer SUV amid soaring gas prices isn’t necessarily tantamount to being a guaranteed hit, either.”
This is how I feel about sales of the new CUVs, Outlook/Acadia/Enclave. A lot of the sales are going to be at the expense of Tahoe/Yukon/Escalade.
Glenn Swanson
That’s exactly what my local Volvo dealer did for my test drive when I was shopping over the past few months. I took delivery of my new Volvo yesterday.
True story: The wife was watching TV last night and I hear her blurt out “they STILL make the Taurus?”
I told her “it’s back.” The more things change…
I’m one of the people who loves larger SUVs (Explorer, Santa Fe, etc.) because of their power and interior cargo carrying ability. I recently went to the local Hyundai dealership, seeing if they had any Santa Fes in stock with the V6. The salesman replied that they do, pointed to one, then suggested I would rather have a Sonata because it gets better gas mileage (despite the fact they had no Sonatas in stock), instead of trying to sell me the SUV.
Anyway, point of the story is, the Asians are out there promoting fuel efficiency in their cars. The Detroit companies, if they want to sell their high profit vehicles, need to get away from efficiency, and start selling their trucks/SUVs virtues. Hyundai, apparently, would rather sell a more efficient Sonata… the Americans need to reel in the people who want a tough vehicle regardless of fuel mileage.
Ref: Iproctor
Car salesman are there to sell vehicles. If he was pushing you to the Sonata instead of the SantaFe, you can bet he had a good reason – and it was not to save you gas milage or save the planet.
mikey:
“Good luck to those folks investing in big 2.8 shares
If your waiting for a Delphi deal it aint gonna happen, without chapter11”
…..well thanks for the good luck wish—-but when I invest I do so based on more than luck…I take educated risks. I bought GM 16 months ago at $19…its now $38. Unlike some who blindly bash GM—I saw light at the end of the end of the tunnel product wise. I have profited handsomely from that insight. Have not done quite as well from my Ford investment—only +25% gain.
On the Ford Edge… I have yet to see one on the road here. Period. Even the crappy and fugly Nitro is selling better.
Oddly enough, here in Red State Land (Texas), this morning I saw four Edges on my commute….and have only seen one Nitro on the road in the last couple of weeks. Dodge may have screwed the pooch on that one.
RF: What if you include Escape numbers? Introduced in ’01, I bet it has stolen lots of Explorer customers as well.
Right now, I think a lot of the public has bought into global warming caused by automobiles and a campaign that flaunts inefficiency would generate a lot of negative press.
umterp85:
Sell!
benders:
There’s no such thing as bad publicity.
RF: I think you would have told me to sell at $28 as well :)
I don’t think the big 3 are actually looking down the barrel of the gun – yet.
The commercials focusing on highway mileage at least indicate the B3 know what direction the market is headed.
Ford at least has a decent, if not world class, small car in the Focus – and it does get good mileage, even in the city.
I still have hope that they will catch on, and start producing quality vehicles. They have to realize though, that they are all going to be smaller players than they are currently. They need to start thinking of themselves as companies half their present size and start development projects that make sense for a company that size.
Someone said the B3 should market their trucks as “big honking trucks”. Ford is doing exactly that, even down to the use of the word “honking” in their ads.
I just sold all my Ford stock. I did this immediately after buying a 2007 Ford Fusion.
Why? It is a a great car, actually. I like it a lot. I got it DIRT CHEAP. There is no way that Ford is making money on it.
The problem: if a car that good is still not considered “good enough” to sell at MSRP, then the domestics are really screwed.
Dynamic 88 – Great comments and agree for the most part. About your comment” I still have hope that they will catch on, and start producing quality vehicles”….I think the recent JD Power + other surveys would suggest Ford is on their way quality wise
I once tried to explain to someone how a $9,999 Cavalier with 0% APR was cheaper to own than a $16,000 Civic with 4% over the course of their 5 years that %6000 added up to $100/month which more than made up for the 2mpg difference on the highway.
It was then I learned people don’t really care about price, not really, they might think they do, but if they want something they find a way, at least people with the means to buy new cars and be picky about it.
So while the Toyondissans focus on their consumer reports directed 80% of the 80/20 rule in each segment why can’t detriot capture the hedonistic 20% that remains? Even Hybrid buyers can be hedonistic, but they don’t want hybrid SUVs with no guts that get 20mpg, they either actually want the mileage or they want the hybrid sticker and don’t give a shyte about the mileage. So either make a hybrid SUV that has 400hp and gets 16mpg or make one that has 40hp and gets 60mpg but who the hell wants a gutless ugly small 28mpg Escape? Apparently nobody, they sell lots of gas only models in the hybrid green but if you look theres no hybrid badge… people didn’t really want the hybrid just the look, they got the 19mpg V6 instead because they wanted to merge and drive over curbs and scratch their balls and spit chew at the neighbor’s dog… ok maybe not that far but they only wanted that signature green. Same as everyone who bought a 300 wanted to look like they had the hemi but they sure do sell a lot of V6s don’t they.
So why not build the most _______ car in the segment and charge more for it? Fastest, Biggest, Loudest factory sound system, blingiest wheels?
Why can’t a factory Cadillac be offered with a pimpscalade package? Two 15″ subs, 30″ chrome rims and a supercharged 502? Sure not EVERYONE will buy it; but like the 300, (every time you see one you think HEMI!) people will think “Holy crap it has a 500hp engine with a sound system capable of causing instant hearing loss!” So maybe it doesn’t but some of them will, and they should all be big and tough and strong but no one needs to know you couldn’t pony up $15k for the pimpscalade package. And yes it HAS to be called that.
Why not build the most gutless greenest lamest two door hybrid out there? It’d help with CAFE too, Give it a 500cc two cylinder flex fuel engine and a little electric engine and a battery and make that sucker plug in. 80mpg and advertise how Toyota’s Prius doesn’t REALLY love the environment, and it sure as hell better be a Saturn or something because no one is going to buy it coming from Chevrolet after they introduce the 500hp supercharged 502 in the new Silverado planet crusher edition.
How about a Buick with an interior ACTUALLY designed by Lay-z-boy with butt massagers that do more than vibrate, wood and chrome everywhere and every old man luxury item they can think of, golf ball cleaner in the trunk maybe I dunno I’m not old I can’t imagine what my father will want in 10 years but I’m sure it’ll be slow quiet and soft with every parking driving and sleeping aid available. And then Cadillac and Buick can stop competing, one can be for rich old people one for rich younger people…. and sure as hell no one is going to buy into Buick being the one for young people so I think we know where that has to go.
That brings me to why the hell does Chevy make trucks AND compact cars, Why does Pontiac make ANYTHING? Saturn, isn’t it Opel now? Whatever stop overlapping brands and if Toyondissan already makes it axe it from the line.
Where the hell is my Cobalt with a V8?
Not only will you not get a Cobalt with a V8, Chevy is axing the supercharged Cobalt SS. Apparently, it can’t meet the tightened emissions standards for 2009.
Die with your boots on…Good way to go.
umterp85 Don’t get me wrong I’m glad you got the guts to invest in GM.I think as RF pointed out the settlement at Delphi spiked an allready well performing stock.
I just don’t want anybody thinking that the UAW/ CAW is gonna accept that agreement.Don’t forget Delphi is in chapter 11.Talk about a gun held to your head.Umterp85,you buy or sell as you see fit so far its working for you.
I also have a huge investment in GM.I’m glad theres others that share my optimism.
tommy! I disagree too with the comment that this is the ’70s all over again. It is fiercely not. Yes, the price of oil threatens to loom over us, but there will be no shortages, no rationing
There will be if Vice President Evil gets his way and we attack Iran.
Fallout and Dave M, here in blue state country (San Francisco) I see several Edges daily but have yet to see a Nitro.
RF and Matthew Danda make a great point. The Fusion, for example, is competitive but can’t overcome the American public’s perception of domestic cars.
The big 2.8 can’t compete with imports and transplants so why not take a Harley Davidson approach? H-D can’t compete with Yamaha, Kawasaki, Honda etc. but they are a successful and profitable company because they build a product that is perceived by the American public as cool. No American car manufacturer has the kind of brand loyalty that H-D has. Ford has even made a branding agreement with H-D to help them sell pick-ups. Fusions, Auras, Focuses etc. just can’t compete against Toyondissans so why not focus on building “cool” cars. Mustangs, Camaros, Corvettes, 300’s, Chargers. Ford, build the Interceptor or 427 Concept and a new T-bird and let Mazda and Volvo battle the imports.
The big 2.8 can’t compete with imports and transplants so why not take a Harley Davidson approach?
This probably won’t work for the Big 2.8. To emulate Harley Davidson, they would effectively have to behave like a Porsche or Ferrari — sell a small quantity of specialty cars at a really high price.
They simply can’t justify those prices. The marketplace is not interested in a $70,000 GTO. (Hell, the market didn’t even want them at $30,000.) They would have virtually no product to offer that could compete in this price range, so volumes would be tiny and total profits would be minimal at best.
That, and they would have to really ramp up their financing. Harley sells bikes in part because they’ll loan money to anything with a pulse. I don’t see how the Big 2.8 can continue to afford to do that.
GoClick,
Have you driven a Cadavalier? and a Civic?
There’s a reason a Civic is more expensive.
For one, it’s a good car that’s reliable, handles decently and is fun to drive.
A Cadvalier (and the Colbalt for that matter) are an underpowered, poorly made pieces of Chevy junk that are better off recycled new than sold to some kid who thinks they are getting a good car.
You’re right, people don’t always care about price as much as they say, but they also see the value in getting a good car as opposed to a new junker.
And this comes from someone who doesn’t like Japanese cars and generally doesn’t fit in Hondas. And I wouldn’t put my kids in either a Civic or a Cadavalier.
But doesn’t Buick already have a La-z-boy signature edition?
Unfortunately, it is not a fair comparison between Harley Davidson and GM. HD is really a marketing company that sells “image” and “lifestyle”. An entirely different business environment. Can’t really compare it to the automotive industry except in loose terms.
In fact, that might make an excellent article. Why HD is different than GM. Let me stew on this for a while….
There will be if Vice President Evil gets his way and we attack Iran.
That’s one way to accelerate the Deathwatches!
June sales are coming in today and it’s not looking good for the 2.801. Ford down 8.1%, DCX down 1.9%, Toyota up 10.2%, Honda up 10%, Nissan up 22.7%.
The HD and GM comparison could probably be more accurately described as shaping up to be a parallel. Crappy quality, go under?/sell out to AMC, repeat, shine up the badge (lifestyle image re-branding)but don’t really make any major technology break-throughs (not without paying Porche anyway).
GM down 24%.
In ’06 Ford sold 157K Escapes (increasing this year). Add that to the 120K Edges expected to be sold and 180K Explorers (likely to be much less this year) and you get 457K SUV’s sold; more than the Explorer back in ’96.
Harley is definitely a lifestyle. I get threats when I park my Suzuki next to the Harleys at work.
While I think the domestics have some good cars, they don’t sell anything I want to buy. I’m most likely going to buy a WRX in a few months and there is no American equivalent. I briefly got excited about the Fusion AWD but it’s only available with an auto and is FWD biased.
“More generally, why is Detroit trying to be Toyota?”
Isn’t that the root of the problem? I just left one of the 2.8. The 2.8 hire(d) people at the top of their classes who wanted to innovate and be creative, yet they intentionally force a culture where innovation and creativity is crushed because they assume that the Toyota way is the best way. It isn’t, it is only one way to do the automotive business.
Toyota is very good at making products that are bulletproof. They hire people who are used to following orders and can do the same thing day in and day out, looking for little ways to improve it, but never looking to change the world. Toyota plays to their people’s strengths.
For too long management at the big 2.8 have been followers. “Try to be Toyota, catch Toyota.” That is lazy, and the management teams should be held accountable for their ineptness and lack of vision.
If the big 2.8 wanted to play to their strengths they would challenge their people to make product that pushes the limits… product that inspire passion and desire. They shouldn’t appeal to people’s logic, they should appeal to people’s hearts. Think Apple.
You shouldn’t play a game you can’t win. If the big 2.8 play to their strengths they can change the game on Toyota. They can change it to a game they CAN win.
In short… Trying to force a corporate culture to be something it isn’t (Toyota like) hasn’t worked for the big 2.8 for the last 30 years … it is time they figure out what they ARE good at… and lead with it.
GM could do as Harley is doing if it were true that people wanted a brand new ’46 Chevy. But cars are different because we must actually use them 5 or 6 days a week. Who wants to go get the groceries in a car w/o power anything, no A/C, 3 on the tree shifting, ….
OTOH, possibly Chevy could bring out an updated version of the ’57 Bel Air. Everyone seems to like them at car shows. Though, Ford didn’t do so well with their updated Bird.
Uh…Robert, haven’t you criticized the big 2.9 in the past for not being enough like Toyonda?
I see your point about dying with your boots on, so to speak, but I’m sure the big 2.8 are more interested in survival. Besides which, there’s a kind of last-man-standing thing going on: When one of the big 2 5/8 falls, the others are in a good position to pick up on some of their erstwhile customers, especially in areas like light trucks which tend to breed a lot of brand loyalty. IOW if it’s GM that goes tango uniform, expect those former Chevy/GMC truck guys to go to Ford and Dodge, not Toyota. That factor by itself could be enough to give the remaining Detroit 2 a new lease on life….
Martin Albright:
Uh…Robert, haven’t you criticized the big 2.9 in the past for not being enough like Toyonda?
There are some things Detroit SHOULD copy from Toyota. I’m thinking here mainly of the stuff Toyota copied from [old] Detroit: brand focus, constant evolution, economies of scale, just in time manufacturing (unless you’re looking at a strike), that sort of thing.
But in terms of style? No way.
Cadillac is perhaps the best example of what Detroit shouldn‘t be doing.
Escalade excepted (which is, admittedly, some bad-ass badge engineering, but has nothing to do with the brand’s traditional mindspace), Cadillacs are lousy copies of European and Japanese sedans with denuded engines and cheap-ass interiors.
There’s no “there” there.
Look at a ’57 Chevy. Or a 60’s Caddy. Or even an early ’70’s Buick. Or even a Ford Explorer (my car of the day). These machines had genuine American-ness, even when they stole European design elements (e.g. Boattail Riv).
The 300C, Corvette, Solstice, Jeep and the Panther-platform ghouls are the only “real” American cars on the scene. (Feel free to add your choices.)
Malibu? Impala? Aura? It’s just sad.
Too true, Robert. To borrow a line from professional wrestling, if you want to be the man, you gotta’ beat the man. The 2.9 have no chance at that given their current situations.
Did you just seriously say that the Explorer handles like a dream???
Detroit will never move metal unless a huge discount is attached to that deal. Going to a GM or Ford dealer is like going to the flea market, you ain’t there for the quality of the goods.
I always boggles my mind how Ford and GM can have such competitive and interesting cars in Europe (new Mondeo, S-Max, Focus ST, etc) but sell antiquated slog mobiles stateside. But then I think that Ford Europe is run by Englishmen who know what they’re doing and aren’t hampered by the mothership’s bone headed environment.
As as far as going out in style, this isn’t a movie, people’s wages and livelihood are at stake…
RF —
To expand on your point, the Mustang needs to stay American, but evolve. There is a generation or two (40 and 50 year olds) that have grown out of the Mustang because the fit and finish has devolved, and there is another generation or two (20’s and 30’s) that refuse to buy a ‘Stang because they were allowed to go the Hondissanota route, and now are terrified/refuse to come back. Even if $1K or $2K was added to the cost of the Mustang for interior and suspension updates (let alone a 21st century V6), it would be a more compelling vehicle.
Think of the hole in the “four-seat convertible” market right now. Plenty of competition encroaching $30K: Solara, Sebring, V6 Mustang, G6, PT Cruiser, Eclipse, Mini and Beetle. Then the next group is TEN GRAND+ higher: C70, CLK, 328i, A4, and a near as dammit 9-3 (~$38K+). If the Mustang team would evolve the vehicle to a 21st Century chassis, Accord/Avalon interior, 4-wheel independent suspension, with the Fusion’s V6 and keep the same V8 for the enthusiasts, why wouldn’t Ford be able to charge $32K for the V6 and $36K for the V8? Hell, for that $36K you’d get a vehicle that would blow the doors off of its $40-$60K competitors…and would have a cabin/cockpit that would be closer in quality to said competition.
Because as it stands now — we either have to compromise on the quality of the 4-seat convertible that we choose for under $30K, or we have to compromise on everything else in our lives because we chose a 4-seat cabriolet over $40K.
For my money, Ford’s got a couple/three years to figure this out…..or I’m digging into the college fund.
Gas is cheap.
People are not all that bright, overall.
If they were, people would still be buying Tahoes and Yukons. Unless you drive too much, like over 20k per year, it’s hard to make the gas bill outrun the depreciation.
I have seen very few compacts from anyone that were still comfortable and dependable over 150k miles, but the large SUV’s can do it. You can even put in a new engine in the truck and send it back out. Meanwhile, the little cars, even the well made ones, need rebuilds that cost more than a replacement.
There is nothing stupid about buying a solid SUV at a good price and taking good care of it. You will win the value game in the end, and you not have to be stuffed into a little bitty car all the time trying to save on gas (which is STILL CHEAP).
For several reasons, cars are and must be more alike nowadays. Front ends, for example, have to conform to pedestrian safety standards as well as aerodynamic factors. But in 1956, say, you could distinguish between a Buick, a Mercury and a Dodge five hundred feet away. Style could and did mean a lot.
Today, it seems perception of a brand’s virtues, whether measurable (resale value) or intangible (being “in fashion”) has become more important. And despite some good efforts, Detroit in general has become a “damaged brand.” Companies and ad agencies do a lot of psychological research into how customers think and why a person may have a better feeling about buying a Camcordima than a Fusabu. Anyone out there who has some knowledge of what that research is finding? Negative feelings can be awfully hard to reverse.
September 2007 will be ground zero. The big 2.8 cannot afford to sign to keep the plants running. The cannot afford a protracted work stoppage either. Heaven only knows what the 3-headed dog will do to Chrysler. The UAW are in a damned if you do (strike) and damned if you don’t (capitulate) situation. There is already a powerful faction within the union who want no surrender. Unless there is a miracle ( a sudden tsunami of good will and good sense), bankruptcy protection is almost certain. Who goes first, second and third is uncertain but I think at least one will not get up off of the floor. GM will survive but whether it looks anything like it does now is debatable. The question in my mind is, will Washington come to the rescue or sit on the sidelines?
First off, I’m not an outsider to the US auto industry…not by any stretch of the imagination.
Having said that, I actually smile when I read that GM’s monthly sales in June “plunged” 21%.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aR.CCl8wKVHQ&refer=home
How many thousands upon thousands of Americans have been in the helpless position of “having” to dump…oh, say $700 or more into their GM vehicle for repairs….on a car that is worth less than what they owe on it? If I had a nickel for each one of those Americans I’d have no need to work.
But here it is, 20+ years after NUMMI….and GM finds itself dripping sweat? Tough Love, my good Buddie….or relative as the case may be.
The US Big 2.314159 have SCREWED the very LOYAL customers who provide them the very paycheck they so dearly love.
Good Riddance…let this Horror Story B-Flick just DIE ALREADY. And no, I prey to God Herbert West of “Reanimator” fame does NOT reanimate this ghastly beast.
Die already, PLEASE!!! We don’t need a “GM DEATH WATCH, BOOK II” :D
Yeah, oboylepr I’m on the, we don,t give no more or the no surrender side or faction,if you will. With a 24% drop in June
sales I think I’m on the losing side.
It all in the hands of the UAW now.
On happier note:MAY YOU FOLKS IN THE U.S.A HAVE GREAT JULY 4th
God bless America
Mikey
There are some things Detroit SHOULD copy from Toyota. I’m thinking here mainly of the stuff Toyota copied from [old] Detroit: brand focus, constant evolution, economies of scale, just in time manufacturing (unless you’re looking at a strike), that sort of thing.
But in terms of style? No way.
This pretty much nails it. With branded products such as cars, you need to offer products that are either (a) notably better or (b) unique, interesting and different in a compelling way.
Detroit makes the fatal error of doing neither. Yes, they do attempt to model themselves after the competitor’s winners, but instead of emulating their management prowess, they just duplicate the bland styling of their products and produce second-rate copies. When the product isn’t particularly unique or special, and not qualitatively better, the consumer would rather just say, “No, thanks” to the bad copy, and go buy the real thing.
The original Taurus was incredibly successful when it was first introduced because no one was selling anything like it. It’s no coincidence when sales plummeted as the lack of quality began to eclipse the style, and as the styling became increasingly bland. When it became less unique, it became less compelling, and it became safer to go with the sure thing.
Ditto with the Chrysler minivan. At first, a real winner, but rivals began to beat it — not just match it — and it was no longer unique. Instead of setting new standards and keeping its leadership, Chrysler punted, effectively handing the baton to Honda and Toyota.
It’s simply amazing that they make the same mistakes, over and over again, it’s as if they never learn. Truth is stranger than fiction…
Good thought Mikey! Y’all have a Happy July 4th!
From your friends up North!
Maybe Detroit should sell each SUV with a “Free Gas for a Year” deal.
The question is would that sell more gas guzzling SUVs/Trucks than the current rebate ’em until they sell plan? If it would, Detroit makes out like bandits. Offer free gas for a year with “up to a total of 500 gallons” in small print, and that would be well less than $3,000 cash back incentive even at retail prices for gas. Heck they could even throw in a $500 cash back incentive similar to what you see from Toyota and still come out ahead. However, I don’t think that tehy would necessarily end up paying retail for the gas. Hopefully, GM, Ford, and/or Chrysler should be able to work out a deal with the major chain gas stations out there, e.g. Shell, Chevron, etc. to get the gas at somewhat of a discount. Basically, they would purchase the gas at a set price for a given amount of time, say $3 per gallon, no matter what the retail price of gas does during that set time. they should be able to design a advertising campaign that incorporates a bit of bravado and machismo with a “we’re picking up the tab” line of BS. The main flaw that I see is, do we really think anybody with the Big 3 has the ability to negotiate contracts like this with major gas retailers? Maybe, but I don’t know.
How many thousands upon thousands of Americans have been in the helpless position of “having” to dump…oh, say $700 or more into their GM vehicle for repairs….on a car that is worth less than what they owe on it? If I had a nickel for each one of those Americans I’d have no need to work.
I hope you dont expect anything from me Rastus.I’ve owned 3 new Detroit offerings and have never put more than 300 hundred across a counter on service provided.
Of course I am not afraid to get the knuckles greezy or knicked,are you??You post is quite venemous.Why ??
If domestic autos are as reliable and durable as Asian products there is little risk in offering and honoring an honest ten year warranty. It worked for Hyundai!
Gardiner, the Big 2.n is already spending 2-4x more per vehicle than Toyota and Honda on warranty repairs.
http://www.warrantyweek.com/archive/ww20060620.html
http://www.warrantyweek.com/archive/ww20070530.html
# Gardiner Westbound:
“If domestic autos are as reliable and durable as Asian products there is little risk in offering and honoring an honest ten year warranty. It worked for Hyundai!”
You make an interesting point, because after all the warranty traditionally represents a company’s faith in their product or service. But before we start praising Hyundai let’s think this thru:
What kind of maker is Hyundai? They are a mass market everyman carmaker. Think Chevrolet, but with out the trucks (at least body-on-frame). They don’t have any rear wheel drive to my knowledge or work trucks like a Silverado (although that may change in the future). Moreover the cars they make have generally been considered “disposable cars” or cars for first time car buyers because of thier cheap price. Now Hyundai has made considerable improvement in both their vehicles and their image, but that is the niche they originally made for themselves and that is where they are coming from as they try to branch out with projects like Genesis, etc.
I submit to you that when Hyundai first came out with the ten year warranty they knew that 90 some percent of their cars would not be owned by the original owner after ten years. Most of them would; buy another one if they had a good experience with it or, move upscale to another brand as they made more money. So the chance of the warranty actually being used was tiny in comparison to the number of vehicles they sold. Now, do some keep their Hyundais ten years? Of course! But not enough to make a difference. Any potential liability was outweighed by the PR they got from offering the warranty.
I also submit to you that GM (or F & C) as much as we want to bitch slap them around on these forums have WAY more customers who keep their cars longer than the avg Hyundai customer, yea, even ten years or longer. ESPECIALLY the “real” trucks. Why? Because they are more durable. Yes, I know, the plastics are cheap, and the electric nose picker in the Caddy breaks as soon as the car is out of warranty. I’m talking powertrain durability. Of course there are those who have had engine and tranny failures, but I’m talking on the whole, ’cause if they all failed like the horror stories that we’ve seen nobody would buy them and they already would have been consigned to the dustbin of history.
So for the 2.801 to offer the same warranty as Hyundai would mean billions of more $ going out to warranty repairs. NOT because they are not as well made, but because they A.) sell WAY more than the Koreans and B.) a higher percentage of their customers keep their vehicles longer than Hyundai’s customers do.
Even the other Japanese (with maybe the exception of Mitsubishi) don’t offer that kind of guarantee. Why not? If anybody should offer a ten year warranty, it should be Toyota or Honda. But they don’t, because their customers are more like 2.801 customers than Hyundai customers.
Prediction: When Hyundai thinks it’s image and demand has improved enough they will quietly end the ten year warranty and emulate Toyondassan’s warranties.
“Malibu? Impala? Aura? It’s just sad.”
What is sad is Impala is the only car people [not named “Fleet”] seem to want from GM.
A ten year warranty would bring customers back in droves to the big 2.8. People care about reliability and especially repair cost (which explains Toyota’s and Honda’s success), much more so than looks or quality as perceived by pistonheads. The ten year warranty was brilliant – it is Toyota/Honda’s kryptonite.
In the spirit of the article: they could at least TRY this; there is absolutely nothing to lose.
What is sad is Impala is the only car people [not named “Fleet”] seem to want from GM.
The Impala is also a fleet special. During the first half of the 2007 model year, fleet sales for the Impala were 54% of the total. Not much has changed, after all.
I am sure there will be an article about sales figures to follow, but I figured this was a timely place to mention the the sales figures released today. GM down 21% (21!!!). In most companies, that would qualify as a catastrophe. Ford down 8.1% (which surprised me actually, I thought the competitive Fusion would save them) and Chrysler down 1% (which was actually a pleasant surprise, I expected worse). Not much more to say other than ‘Ouch! Poor GM!’
“Gas is cheap.”
In Venezuela…
“People are not all that bright, overall.”
Nice generalization… not true.
“If they were, people would still be buying Tahoes and Yukons.”
Because all smart people have the same tastes?
“Unless you drive too much, like over 20k per year, it’s hard to make the gas bill outrun the depreciation.”
Okay, this I REALLY don’t get. GM SUV’s have depreciation curves that would make the average Camry, Accord, or Mini owner downright nauseous. They also consume a lot more petrol. So where the gain… other than the waistline?
“I have seen very few compacts from anyone that were still comfortable and dependable over 150k miles, but the large SUV’s can do it.”
I ended up driving a 1989 Mercedes-Benz 190E this afternoon. The quality of craftsmanship in that vehicle was so outstanding that I could easily see it lasting at least another 10 to 12 years.
I also tested out a 1995 Tahoe that was a complete piece of trash. Even though it had a two inch bricks worth of maintenance records, I wouldn’t touch that thing with a ten foot pole.
Size has absolutely nothing to do with durability. If you doubt me, feel free to peruse all the old Honda, Toyota and Datsun sites that are on the web.
“You can even put in a new engine in the truck and send it back out. Meanwhile, the little cars, even the well made ones, need rebuilds that cost more than a replacement.”
You just contradicted yourself. If you put in a new engine, you’re not rebuilding it. Again, in either case size has absolutely nothing to do with it. If you believe it does, feel free to try to rebuild a Northstar V8.
“There is nothing stupid about buying a solid SUV at a good price and taking good care of it. You will win the value game in the end, and you not have to be stuffed into a little bitty car all the time trying to save on gas (which is STILL CHEAP).”
Some of us enjoy ‘little bitty cars’. Small cars tend to be more fun to drive, far less expensive to maintain, and better at avoiding rather nasty accidents.
From Autoblog the sales figures are:
BMW Group 2.0% at 29,394 (6/06: 27,735)
Chrysler Group –5% at 183,347 (6/06: 185,946)
Ford Motor Co –11.5% at 247,599 (6/06: 269,404)
General Motors –24% at 326,300 (6/06: 413,473)
Honda America 7.3% at 140,935 (6/06: 126,449)
Nissan North America 18.2% at 92,213 (6/06: 75,154)
Toyota Motor Co. 6.1% at 245,739 (6/06: 223,018)
My comment: Ford and GM are a worse % than than previous posters, as is Chrysler but there downturn is mild compared to the other two. And Chrysler doesn’t include Mercedes (19,589) even though Ford includes Volvo, Jag, etc. (not Mazda because it’s not wholly owned). Lexus, Infinti, and Accura sales are rolled into their parent companies, as is MINI with BMW.
“The Impala is also a fleet special. During the first half of the 2007 model year, fleet sales for the Impala were 54% of the total. Not much has changed, after all.”
GM cut it’s fleet sales in June and the Impala still sold well…Was my reasoning. The Impala is definitely a fleet-darling though so not much certainty with my comment…Hence the word “seems”.
GM June sales crash is shocking!
GM’s June sales bloodbath isn’t shocking. Not at all.
Just ask Maryann Keller, Deming, etc….there is an entire slew of people who predicted this would happen. Deming predicted this over 20 years ago. Keller, in her book “Rude Awakening” predicted this back in 1990.
GM, are you having a Rude Awakening yet?
Happy 4th of July! I wonder if your local Chevy dealer will have free hot dogs for the homeless streetwalkers and those on welfare.
“Come on in…yes, we accept food stamps….LORD YES!!”
detroit hasn`t shown a single sign for being at absolute zero point. whenever you think it can`t get worse, they prove – it can!No domestic platforms ; 60% of components designed and engineerd not even by a foreign subsidiary, but by foreign companies. guys, how can you make money if all the profits have to go to foreign companies that REALLY designed and engineerd those parts? detroit has sold most of the stakes in their foreign motherships, so there is no way of building cars, if detroit must do the physical engineering of complex parts themselves( it ain`t playing around logo or renaming taurus). i heard the rumors that chrysler could unite with gm, or sorta that. are you kidding? what platforms they will use? chrysler will take their leaf springs and exchange with leaf springs from gm Savanna? hahahaha.
Robbie:
“A ten year warranty would bring customers back in droves to the big 2.8. …
In the spirit of the article: they could at least TRY this; there is absolutely nothing to lose.”
My comment prior to this is they do have something to lose – billions of dollars:
windswords:
July 3rd, 2007 at 9:35 pm
“So for the 2.801 to offer the same warranty as Hyundai would mean billions of more $ going out to warranty repairs. NOT because they are not as well made, but because they A.) sell WAY more than the Koreans and B.) a higher percentage of their customers keep their vehicles longer than Hyundai’s customers do.”
I have some experience in this area. This is one case where the bean counters actually earn their keep. They can with better accuracy than a weatherman predict what the costs of these warranties will be down the road. Again it was Hyundai that had nothing to lose by doing this. Their situation does not apply to other automakers, including the Japanese transplants. Of course if sales keep declining for the domestics, all bets are off because desperate times call or desperate measures.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/f665075e-2996-11dc-a530-000b5df10621.html
Detroit is not gonna last long at this rate.
I don’t know if I’d buy one, but I’m with you Robert. First stop, the 300C – Gangsta Edition. They’d make their quota in the south. Then, ditch the impala and redesign a retro tri-five chevy and make it the belair.
Re: Lumbergh21’s post
The question is would that sell more gas guzzling SUVs/Trucks than the current rebate ‘em until they sell plan? If it would, Detroit makes out like bandits. Offer free gas for a year with “up to a total of 500 gallons” in small print, and that would be well less than $3,000 cash back incentive even at retail prices for gas.
Instead of free gas, how about a contract with Exxon-Mobile for fixed price $2/Gallon gas (maximum ~20 gallons/week) for a couple years.
At a subsidy of ~$1.50/gallon, that works out to ~$1500 per year – which should be affordable.
Toss in smart futures/hedging contracts to smooth market fluctuations, and it’s even easier. Of course, Prius drivers and enviros would get their panties in a wad. But Exxon-Mobile is tough/ruthless/unPC enough not to give a —- about bad publicity. Are the big 2.x? Probably not.
Are the big 2.x smart enough to make it work? Probably not.
windsworth:
This is a hard calculation of pros and cons and I cannot claim to have access to exact figures. My sense is that buying a car financially stretches people so far that the security of having no disastrous maintenance issues for a decade is worth a lot to the public. Even doing it temporarily it would be good PR, the thinking among the public being that the maker sure trusts its vehicle an awful lot. If you can offer employee pricing, you can offer ten year warranties too, right?
Robbie:
Two points, first the employee pricing. It only has a potential customer base of 300,000 or so for GM, and then it goes down from there. And since the absolute most you can expect from an employee is a purchase every 5 years (but most go longer than that between purchases) only a small percetage will take advantage of that program during any one year. A warranty is for EVERYONE of your customers. Chrysler, the smallest of the Detroit 3, sold 2.7 MILLION vehicles last year. That’s a lot of potential liability. And for all I know the employee pricing may be a benny the union contract provides for. So maybe it’s not out of the goodness of the Detroit 3’s hearts, I don’t know.
Second, if you do something like this temporarily and then take it away, it leaves a bad taste in the publics mouth. Since the belief of the consumer is that a warranty is an espression of a companies faith in it’s product or service (it’s not really, but that’s for another time) they will be asking themselves, what gives? Do you believe in your product or not? So a temp warranty extention is not a good idea.
Your other point about a warranty providing a feeling of security for the customer was right on the money.
Ford should have renamed the “Exploder” to something else after that whole Firestone tire fiasco.
Sometimes intentionally, sometimes subconsciously, I still say “Exploder” when referring to one!
And what’s with the colors? Every Ford Explorer (wow, that took a lot of effort…) I’ve seen this week is the same boring navy blue. What’s up with that?
Great editorial and an excellent point. why would anyone risk getting ripped off again when they are perfectly happy with their American built Hondas, Toyotas and Nissans ? The train has certainly left the station.
very cool editorial.
However, i like the Edge, and I’m really into the Lincold varient of it. I especailly like the retro grill.
I will buy a Mini Cooper tho, or a GTI perhaps. I dont ever carry anything more than an overnight bag and a few bottles of wine. I would buy a Solstice, except I cant even get those things in that car.
I know that most americans really like big big cars, i don’t. They are OK, but then you pay at the pump. And unless u are BMW and charge 50-60 large for a car, most large vehicles are not alot of fun. Not for me. So unless the domestics come up with small cool cars like the aforementioned, I wont be buying them.
Also, I really like the new mustang, but it needs to be alot smaller. It it were, it could sport a high tek 4 banger, and be a load of economical fun. As it is, you have the tame v6 version, or the hot v8. I want a hot 4 banger that gets outstanding milage. Oh well. Maybe in another lifetime.
–
fallout11:
July 3rd, 2007 at 9:15 am
No shortages and rationing…..yet.
It’s coming, you better believe it. $4/gallon national average by next summer (side note, I correctly predicted $3+/gal for this summer). Google “Peak Oil” for why.
Here’s what I can’t for the life of me figure out – Why are the big 2.8 still marketing clunky pushrod engines? What decade is it?
And if real ‘Mukans wanted European designs, they’d go buy one, not some half-baked Euro transplant / badge engineered / “inspired” piece of metal.
On the Ford Edge… I have yet to see one on the road here. Period. Even the crappy and fugly Nitro is selling better. Not sure why.
The Edge was the best selling mid-sized cross dresser SUV in June.
Re: 10 year warranties
A warranty is only as good as the company that gives the warranty. If people get the impression that GM or any other domestic manufacturer is headed for Ch. 11, then the warranty won’t be worth the paper its printed on because there is no guarantee that the warranty won’t be nullified or curtailed by the bankruptcy court.
Second, ask some current or recent GM, Ford and Chrysler buyers how their legitimate warranty claims were treated. Having a 10 year warranty that my dealer won’t honor isn’t any better than having a 3 year warranty he won’t honor.