Top Gear (TG) presenter James May’s nickname is Captain Slow. As you’d expect from a country where sarcasm is a team sport, the moniker disses Mr. May’s driving skills. But the nickname could just as easily refer to May’s intellectual agility. Like automotive alpha Jeremy Clarkson, May is always happy to take an analytical shortcut, especially if it leads to some good old fashioned America bashing. Writing about his recent stateside sojourn in the Telegraph– "Eat Junk, Drive Junk"– May once again reveals that the U.S. and the UK are two nations separated by British snobbery.
“Since I'm still in the States this week, I thought I'd have another go at headbanging that old chestnut about American cars and why they never work in Europe. Because, let's be honest, they generally don't. There have been one or two surprising successes in recent years, such as the Jeep 4x4s, but on the whole you drive an American car only if you're an Elvis impersonator or a dealer in vintage Wurlitzer jukeboxes. That is, a bit unhinged.”
Fair enough. American cars are generally larger and thirstier than the European sedans. Provided you’re not an Elvis fan or jukebox collector, you can spot May the “unhinged” comment. But what follows has nothing to do with American cars and Eurozone roads. It’s impure, adulterated bile.
“I've been driving a few this week… the Dodge Grand Caravan (a large MPV, or what the yanks would call a ‘minivan’), the Dodge Ram 1500 Big Horn Edition (no, honestly, it's a pick-up) and the new Mustang convertible. And there is a common characteristic that is apparent in all of them and in every other mainstream American car I've ever tried. They don't seem to be very good.”
One wonders if May’s Ram was built in Coahulia, and whether his definition of “mainstream American cars” includes U.S.-built Toyotas, Hondas, etc. In any case, May’s Caravan and Mustang are part of a contracting niche. And while the Ram may not be class-leader, it’s very good at doing what it’s supposed to do. But Captain Slow’s driven a bunch of Yank tanks and they all suck. Really? Really.
“In the past, this has been explained away as a fundamental disparity in the remit of the car between the old world and the new… I think it might be something a bit more complex than that. American cars might genuinely be a bit rubbish, and to explain why I'd like to return to the tiresome and pretentious subject of food.”
And then May gets genuinely insulting. He slams American cuisine “because it would appear that the principal job of food is to be thrown away.” For some reason, this insight inspires May to buy some local ingredients and make a shepherd’s pie (ground meat and mashed potato topped with melted cheese). The pie turns out “twice as big [as UK pies] that had cost half as much and yet tasted pretty much of the square root of Monterey Jack.”
“And if it's true of pie, it must be true of cars. We are constantly amazed at how cheap American cars seem to be, but only until we try one. The Grand Caravan is a miserable conveyance with a clumsy, antiquated gearchange, meanly upholstered seats and an interior that would make Alcatraz look inviting. The Ram is probably the worst car I've ever driven. It looks absurd, the ride is truly atrocious and the relationship between the steering wheel and its road behaviour borders on the hazardous. I dearly want to love the Mustang because it at least seems to stand for what the American car was once all about, but with the best will in the world it's a bit of a phoney pony with sloppy deportment and a cabin that came out of a Kinder egg.”
May’s unconsummated Mustang love says it all. On one hand, he admires America’s automotive exuberance. On the other hand, he can’t. And that’s because validating– or even tolerating– this country’s “can do” spirit would mean rejecting the po-faced, post-Empire, acid-tongued cynicism that informs everything he does, says, writes and is.
Speaking to May’s main point, do American cars deserve such blanket dismissal? This collection of writers– scribes who regularly and fully criticize American automobiles as and when they deserve it– thinks not. As our forthcoming review of the new Honda Accord will testify, there are plenty of superb mainstream American cars. And yes, we’ve reviewed some solid “domestic” efforts as well.
In short, May’s prose is tainted by [the same old] British anti-American prejudice. In fact, the next time Captain Slow wants to visit the states; I suggest he needn't bother. As May’s clearly incapable of the intellectual rigor required to keep an open mind and a balanced perspective, he might as well just phone it in. Again.
[Read Mr. May's full Telegraph article here.]
American food sucks. Riiiiiiight…
Anyone who has had the nessecity (read: misfortune) to have to eat two or more consecutive meals of standard british fare will tell you; Britain’s crap is just as crappy as american crap, unless you’re out at fine dining. Compare the best Fish n’ Chips place in England to the most mediocre Chipotle state side. I know which I’d rather eat.
But the cars he does review do suck, especially the Mustang which is an overpriced piece of crap selling off to fat middle aged men with nostalgia and kids who would have bought IROC-Zs not too long ago.
Too much crap food leads to the worlds biggest asses, leads to the worlds worst cars, go May!!
But what follows has nothing to do with American cars and Eurozone roads. It’s impure, adulterated bile.
Hey, leave Europe out of it! UK is not part of Europe.
I have to say, though, that I don’t quite understand the objections to his article. The tone of it is no worse than the bile TTAC pours on most models it tests (the only extra ingredient is a few snipes at the US, some of which ring true).
Perhaps James May is expressing his anger that Ford is unloading its two ‘British’ assets, Jaguar and Land Rover in this roundabout way?
It can’t be easy, being an automotive writer in a country with no makes of its own, other than those owned by former colonies (US and India), or former enemies (Germany) :-)
Ya, but at least our teeth are better here.
kkop,
Hey, leave Europe out of it! UK is not part of Europe.
I hate to break it to you, but the UK is very much a part of Europe, both geographically and politically.
The UK is part of the European “plate” which extends as far as Iceland all the way to the Causcus region (where Turkey has part of their land mass (Thrace)).
Politically, The UK is an active member of the EU and EFTA.
As for not owning any car companies , we’ve got Aston Martin back. The financiers are Arabian, but the papers says “Prodrive”. It was a UK led consortium.
The fact is, this article just stinks of not being able to take criticsm. If that’s James May’s opinion? Fine, leave it be.
But let’s face it, Americans aren’t even buying American cars (Which is why we have deathwatches!) so why jump on James May for saying what we’ve been saying on TTAC….?
The difference between TTAC’s editorials critiquing US designed/built vehicles, and May’s analysis, is that TTAC’s credit is built on being un-biased, which I think they hold very well. I don’t care what badge is on the front grill (or lower front quarter panel a la GM.) I look at each car with an open mind. James clearly hasn’t. We could have handed him the keys to the finest American vehicles and he still would have hated them. He didn’t exactly drive the best examples of American Engineering, but it didn’t matter, his mind was made up.
TTAC, go review a British car on British soil. That should level the playing field I think!
BTW, I enjoy May’s commentary on Top Gear, but he, just like Clarkson, is very biased.
What would the key fob to the finest American vehicles say on it anyways?
Cadillac? Chrysler?
I am having trouble thinking of an example for May to review.
I read the orginal article. I think his criticism of “American” cars refers to the products of the Big 2.8, as opposed to cars “assembled” in America ( by whoever ) and/or those purchased, in general, by Americans.
And reading the review of those very products on these pages, you would be hard pressed not to agree with him.
Why would May consider US-built Hondas and Toyotas “mainstream American” cars? We don’t consider Canadian-built Chevy pickups “mainstream Canadian” vehicles, just as we don’t look at a large percentage of VWs sold in this country as “mainstream Mexican” cars.
To be sure May is biased against America in a lot of ways just like Clarkson…but I take all their reviews with a grain of salt. They’re entertainers first, car reviewers further down. And a Brit ragging on American food is a laugher.
KatiePuckrik :
The UK is part of the European “plate” which extends as far as Iceland all the way to the Causcus region (where Turkey has part of their land mass (Thrace)).
Technically the European plate only makes it halfway across Iceland, but who’s counting?
Katie: sure the UK is in Europe. But you wouldn’t know it from speaking with Brits. Whenever I am in the UK, with almost no exception people refer to continental Europe as “Europe”. And when they say “Europe”, you know exactly what they mean: those countries across the Channel. Even border officials express themselves that way.
And about May and Clarkson: Nowadays, anti-Americanism is common all over the world. Does this really surprise you guys? This ain’t 1999. Intelligent, educated people are not anti-American, but such people do tend to be a minority, wherever you go.
TopGear obviously has made it’s name through unabashed bastardry and overall review brutality. It is really more of an entertainment show than an informative automotive review show, and it is tailored to appeal to British audiences. While my red, white and blue blood naturally boils at such nonsense as May’s review, I think we can all agree that TTAC is above this subject matter altogether. I’m not one for the “USA rulez, Europe sux eggs and can’t fight wars” type of debates.
This review was far from objective and ill-informed, since comparing the driving dynamics and build quality of the new Mustang to the old wouldn’t yield such despair as was evident in his dismissal of the car. American cars get a blanket dismissal for the same reason the new Jaguar XF was roundly panned the moment a few photos leaked onto the ‘net – America, like Jaguar, is a big soft punching bag and everybody wants to take their swing. People heap derision upon us Yanks because they don’t like our foreign policy. This has very little to do with cars and will doubtless inspire rather pointless debate and mouth-foaming over which country is #1.
bfg9K,
I know that, but it wasn’t relevant to my point.
At least I can still have my man crush on Hammond…
who cares what May thinks. The Brits let their government run all over them, pretty soon UK subjects won’t be allowed to own cars or drive so they can gaze across the pond and remember the glory days of personal transportation.
When you consider for a minute the British auto industry state of affairs I find it amazing that May has any room to criticize the US auto industry.
Let’s put this on an ultimate scale.
3 Largest US Automakers that are American owned:
GM
Ford
Chrysler (soon to be after the transaction)
3 Largest British Automakers that are British owned:
Land Rover / Jaguar (nope – Ford an American car brand owns that one)
Aston Martin (nope – a conglomertate of foreign companies own that one)
Rover (they make nothing anymore but headlines of bankruptcy)
Lotus – (nice botique car company – makes great…small cars and that’s completely it). Nice vehicle to pack the bags or take more than 2 people with.
Atom / Morgan – (even smaller botique of sports cars)
I’m a fan of Top Gear but Clarkson / May are your typical British with an unfounded superiority complex. Seems the cars they rave and love – can’t keep the factory running an they wind up as someone else’ parts bin. Remember Lucas wiring? – What a smart Brit invention…polish the wood in the interior and have a monkey do the wiring. B/c what looks better…a UK car that looks nice but doesn’t work (meaning it’ll always look nice)…or an American brutish car that was designed by an Accountant but still somehow works – even though the interior if fisher price.
I own a 2005 Ford Mustang. It has been a great car—unlike the BMW 3 Series that stranded me in the middle of nowhere Pennsylvania. Also, I can assure you—I am neither fat, middle aged, or redneck. But I digress.
KatiePukrik. Hate to let facts get in the way here. Americans are buying American cars…but I guess they are only bought by “those type of Americans” that Mr Mays and snobby Brits & Euros of his ilk disdain and generally discount. “Those type” include many hard working middle class families who lost love ones “across the pond” defending this British Bas—ds right to free speech.
The hypocrisy here is amazing!
When someone on TTAC criticises the “big 2.801” is “constructive” and “Helpful”. When a foreigner does it, how many people leap up to defend it?! Infact, I’ve seen many people draw parallels between the US auto industry and British Leyland days! Yet how many people have said things to the tune of “What auto industry do the Brits have?”. I don’t have a child, but even I can see that wishy washy “time out” style discipline doesn’t work!
When I saw this article I wondered how long it would be before people got defensive!
Jeff in Canada wrote “TTAC, go review a British car on British soil. That should level the playing field I think!”
Well, what kind of mainstream mass produced automobiles are British?
True answer: NOT ONE SINGLE VEHICLE (since MGRover went bust a couple years ago).
At least in Canada, you have a truly Canadian automobile maker (for now).
GM of Canada is one of the very few companies on earth descended from a horse buggy operation (literally). McLaughlin built Buick automobiles in Canada, then added Chevrolet cars (about 90 years ago). Later, it became GM of Canada, and is now wholly owned by GM, so I suppose one could claim it is no longer a Canadian company.
The only other car company to survive long-term from a horse buggy operation was Studebaker (1852-1966). Ironically, Studebaker closed up shop in the US over Christmas 1963, and continued in Canada to the end, using GM Canada engines for 1965-1966 cars. Engines for which they were vastly overcharged, I might add, which hastened their demise.
Wonder if this is how GM will end? In Canada, buying parts from other suppliers? Guess it depends upon how the UAW talks go…..
After reading UMterp85’s comments on “British Bas–ds” I am disgusted with this site and I now refuse to read or comment on this site.
TTAC is boycotted by myself.
I think that May’s vitriol-filled comments border on jealosy (Aston is all they “have”), although I agree with him about the RAM (whose time is past). I predict that the next model of the RAM may actually have a grille 6″ lower (as opposed to the pre-gas price plan of 6″ higher) than the existing model.
As to TTAC’s “anti-Detroit” bias, I think that TTAC is on the side of the domestics, in the sense that criticism may wake them up to make the cars that they’re capable of making.
I’d really love to see them make a car (in the next six months, please) that I’d consider buying.
I watched a PBS show on the love/hate directed by Europe towards the US. By the end, my foremost thought was – Who cares what they think, they’re committing demographic suicide with their fallen-off-a-cliff birth rates. Another few decades and there won’t be any left to watch/read/hear. Except for the immigrants who’ll be minding the natives as they descend into their dotage. Perhaps Katie can then review the fashionable woman’s conveyance – the hijab. I read an account by a Brit ethnographer searching for the origins of a particular decorative South Asian/Middle Eastern symbol. Her journeys took her to Afghanistan and Iran and she did wear a hijab as necessary. Said it was like driving a Volvo.
jaje – Lotus isn’t Brit owned or run anymore either…it’s owned by Proton in Malaysia
After reading UMterp85’s comments on “British Bas–ds” I am disgusted with this site and I now refuse to read or comment on this site.
TTAC is boycotted by myself.
You’re disgusted with the whole of TTAC because of what one reader said?
Gotta complain about something, since foreigners own damn near all British automotive marques these days. I’d probably do the same in his shoes.
But the food analogy is hilarious. Sure we have way too many fast food joints, but who do we thank for the Mad Cow scare?
And for every Big Mac we sell, they consume a plate of Chicken Tikka Masala cooked in cream and butter: loaded with fat. Indian food is everywhere, and most of the restaurants I visited in London served it up nice and greasy.
Not trying to shoot down May’s arguement, I’m just questioning it with what I’ve seen.
Well, the comments took a turn for the worse as I was composing my comment. I hope Katie comes back as I enjoy what she has to say. That said, it is frustrating getting bashed for the sin of being American and believing in American exceptionalism. As it happens, I also believe in the exceptionalism of the Anglosphere and that won’t change because of silly twits like May. And I do worry about the demographic black hole Europe and the UK are approaching.
An Englishman criticizing American cuisine? He has got to be kidding.
Now, if it were an Italian or a Frenchman criticizing American cuisine…
I’ve been disappointed in Great Britain since the greatest British car company of them all – Matchbox (Lesney) – went bankrupt in the early 1980s.
Let May and Clarkson blabber on about how awful the US is all they want. They’re just serving up propaganda for a population that is slowly having their cars taken away by environmental jihadists, has their fuel taxed to absurd levels, and are taxed based on how much carbon their cars fart out. They have to be told how awful US food is now because soon the EJ’s will start jacking with theirs with the aim of reducing human flatulence emissions.
So Britain’s lack of a car industry makes them unable to criticize crap cars when they see them? America’s best? Maybe the Corvette, which Top Gear gave a very favorable review of, hell, Clarkson even owned a Ford GT at one point (he may still, I don’t know).
I am trying to think of another car that the US produces that is world-class in any way. Sure the Fusion/Milan are about equal to a Camry, but they will depreciate quicker, and it is not like the Camry is a great car in any way.
While I regret Katie Puckrick’s decision to boycott this site, I am allowing mterp85’s comment to stand.
Despite May’s “cap in hand,” qualifier-laden rhetorical style, his article was a shot across the bow of America. As long as commentators don’t flame each other, I’m prepared to let these comments through.
Katie: sure the UK is in Europe. But you wouldn’t know it from speaking with Brits. Whenever I am in the UK, with almost no exception people refer to continental Europe as “Europe”. And when they say “Europe”, you know exactly what they mean: those countries across the Channel.
That’s absolutely right. Any Brit who defines himself as “European” is making an implicit political statement, as many don’t view themselves as European. Blair’s failed dream of seeing Britain adopt the euro is one example of the Brits tendng to hold out against too close of an affiliation with the Continent. They are an island nation, and to that extent, maintain an island mentality, a remnant of an era when it was the world’s greatest empire, not left to compete for crumbs of leadership against the French and Germans in a European bloc.
In any case, I think that these Americans-raising-their-hackles-against-Brit-snobbery articles that you see occasionally in the US media somewhat miss the point. Namely, that it is ingrained in the British character to mock everything and anything as a form of sport. If you think that they are anti-American, you should see what bons mots they direct toward the French, or the Germans, or for that matter, to each other.
Sarcasm in the UK is considered to be witty and clever, a form of jousting, and is often used just for the sake of humor and to amuse one’s friends. It’s quite different from how Americans use sarcasm, as they generally limit it to those whom they wish to offend.
The car press in the UK is similar to the US press, in that reviewers tend to love BMW’s and do a bit too much cheerleading than they should for the home team products, looking for glimmers of hope when they should just review the car, warts and all.
Their comments about American cars are a bit gratuitous, but anyone who has seen one on a European road, particularly one of our land yachts, can’t help but think that some of them are just excessive and absurd. I remember laughing when I saw an Escalade driving through Amsterdam, because it was so utterly enormous compared to everything else around it that it looked like a Panzer in search of a village to destroy.
KatiePukrik: I apolgize for the wording of my comment toward May (but not the intent). As such, I will vent my frustration in a more politically correct way the next time—and take my cue from ChuckR—-I will now refer to May and others of his ilk as “silly twits”
The Dodge Ram has a rough ride and doesn’t handle well??? What a shock!!
This man has such insight. He is a genius> /sarcasm
You know, this buy would probably be surprised to learn that a Hummer gets low mileage.
We’re being chided by an englishman about food and automobiles? What next, dentistry?
TTAC better watch their step here. I’m not defending James May’s blanket statments, but considering his European audience, he’s passing some fair judgements.
Europeans like their cars space-efficient, fuel-efficient, taut and nimble. Carmakers acheive this through cutting-edge engineering, and express their advancements through distinctive styling and a certain level of interior refinement. Can anyone name one American car that seems to fit the bill? And don’t use the Accord as a crutch -it’s still considered Japanese amongst the general buying public, and their perception is all that matters.
Back to the big 2.8 -it seems to me that they’re primarily focused on a certain definition of quality (as in reliability and durability) and price (that’s the bean counters listening to the focus groups). I think GM, Chrysler and Ford are producing some fine examples of class-leaders on these points, and TTAC is passing some fair judgements on them.
If TTAC wants to defend good American industrial design & engineering, I’ll support that. But using a Honda to exemplify American cars? puh-lease.
All three of the vehicles May reported on really are cheap nasty make-do designs built on the cheap. Their skewering is completely deserved. Bringing up the Honda Accord as a counterexample is irrelevant, and you know why.
This dude got confused since the steering wheel of North American cars is on the correct side, but the wrong side for him. It thre him in tizzie and he got slightly frustrated.
Oh man, I think you guys take editorials too seriously!
Pch101 :
September 17th, 2007 at 10:33 am
…
Sarcasm in the UK is considered to be witty and clever, a form of jousting, and is often used just for the sake of humor and to amuse one’s friends. It’s quite different from how Americans use sarcasm, as they generally limit it to those whom they wish to offend.
…
Agreed. I think there’s also some inflamitory muckraking going on too. He really doesn’t mean he would rather be in Alcatraz than a Grand Caravan.
However, I do think there’s a connection between the high obesity levels in the US and the types of cars that we drive. I would love to see some data and solid analysis on that. I wonder if there’s a statistician somewhere that has calculated the point at which a 30 year old 300 pound man will buy a compact versus a mid-size when gas hits x dollars/gallon :)
I do apologise about my outburst earlier, but my decision to boycott still stands. I wish to make one last comment about the comments you are talking:
1. Mr Farago is allowing comments like ” British bast–ds” to stand. Pardon me, but that is a racist comment. It doesn’t matter that James May started first (which is juvenile in itself) we don’t need to go to that level. And anyway, TTAC decided to broadcast James May’s comments! If they felt that opposed to it, why give it any air time? So according to Mr Farago, we can’t flame each other but we can insult other nationalities! Makes sense(!)
2: I’m particularly amused at the “shining” examples of American engineering that has been held up. The Honda Accord and the Ford GT. The example of the Honda Accord is so laughable, I can’t even believe anyone suggested it and the Ford GT is a curious one because it was 3/4 engineered by Lola, Lotus and Cooper. All of which, were British at the time!
3: Mr Swanson alluded that Mr May is validating– or even tolerating– this country’s “can do” spirit would mean rejecting the po-faced, post-Empire, acid-tongued cynicism that informs everything he does, says, writes and is.
“‘Can do’ spirit”?! Is this the same “can do” spirit which is causing TTAC readers to whine when Detroit can’t closed their perceived “perception gap”?! How many people have bleated “Why can’t they offer a 5 year warranty?” or “Why don’t they put their money where their mouth is?” or my favourite “Let Detroit die, they burned me enough times with their cars”.
People on TTAC have been the biggest critics of Detroit, yet when someone foreign says it, they are “ill informed” and immediately attack the other side with arguments like “Where’s your auto industry?!”. Like I said earlier “I don’t have a child, but even I know that wishy washy “time out” style discipline doesn’t work!
So I’ve said my piece.
Speaking to May’s main point, do American cars deserve such blanket dismissal? This collection of writers– scribes who regularly and fully criticize American automobiles as and when they deserve it– thinks not.
The writers may not, but if I had a nickel for every time I read a comment about how somebody would never ever ever ever ever buy a domestic vehicle again (especially in response to the favorable reviews), then I’d be buying Chrysler from Cerberus right now.
I have to agree with some of the above – May is lambasting terrible vehicles, and we would say as much, were his comments not tinged with the particularly British penchant for sarcastic dismissal.
It’s interesting to see how readers are reacting to criticism that only differs from the TTAC norm in that it comes from London, England, rather than London, Connecticut.
One point that, despite being badly expressed, holds true, is that this has absolutely nothing to do with the politics of Middle East conflict. This is about cars, bad cars, and xenophobia has no place here.
KatiePuckrik :
1. The epithet “British bastards” is, at worst, ethnocentric. And that’s not a minor point. The commentator was labeling Mr. May an ingrate for unfairly dissing America when Americans fought and died for their right to free speech. Feel free to argue the point, but I do not believe it was out of bounds. My call.
As for giving Mr. May’s vitriol the “oxygen of publicity,” it’s because this website is dedicated to the pursuit of the truth, no matter in what tiny little corner it may hide.
2. If you feel the built-in-America Honda Accord is a laughable example of a mainstream American car, that’s fine. An explanation would be appreciated. Meanwhile, please note that TTAC is not a monolithic enterprise. Our reviewers and analysts are free to state their opinion regardless of mine or anyone else’s.
For example, I thought the GT500 was horrendous. Mr. Lieberman loved it. Both perspectives were presented. As you know full well, our comments section is open to dissenting views on any and all subjects.
3. I agree that GM lacks this “can do” spirit. Which is one reason I stalk them hereabouts. But generally speaking, as an American who spent 16 years in the UK, in the main, I agree wholeheartedly with the point.
4. If you find TTAC commentators hypocritical or misinformed or just plain wrong, fair enough. You are entitled to do so according to the rules for posting.
Its a shame katie has boycotted, it was always nice to read another brits understanding of america and to realise it wasnt just me who felt certain ways.
having been here 2 years i have to say i whole heartedly agree with james and for that matter clarksons points on american cars, they are utter cr@p (which is pointed out on this web site many, many times REPEATEDLY,) in comparison to the quality you get in europe, the usual make it cheap get it out the door as quick as possible not only affects autos but the whole american culture. look at housing, you build houses here like we build our garden sheds in the UK. Terrible, too quickly put together not enough care and attention to detail and
as for bashing the food fair enough, but we ain’t the ones with the national obese health problem…
It is far too hypocritical to have one rule for you and one for them when when it comes to detroit bashing.
Seriously you guys should get around the world more and experience life outside of this small country.
as for umterp85, i thought we were fighting for europe back then against an evil tyranny. the same has supposedly happened lately where we followed (many say misguidedly) in the gulf where we have lost many fine people due to reasons i dare mention for fear of being banned on here. RF umterp85 has to be close to the point of flaming, apparently you have put up with far less in the past, sort it out. At times i really question where TTAC is going, it used to be full of appropriate features, but since going more public and expanding. some editorials are plainy there to make up time or fill a space you’re getting desperate about, maybe more editorial control needs exerting. You’re a global site, well done on alienating a big part of it out there.
Maybe you should make him apologise and send a bunch of flowers will help sort katie out and get her bright intelligent opinions back on here?
RF: “May’s article was a shot against the bow of America”.
You gotta be kidding. Are we talking about the same article?
I read the Telegraph piece, and I found it quite gentle, tongue-in-cheek, and ostensibly absurd.
To see people at TTAC — the place where snark rules and exaggeration is a legitimate rhetorical approach — being so thin-skinned is, frankly, quite worrysome.
People on this site like to complain about Political Correctness, i.e. the pressure to conform to strict ideas of what may hurt the feelings of select touchy cohorts. I think the very idea that a British commentator must respect American pride in cars and restaurant food is the epitome of PC.
Chrysler minivans and Jeep Cherokees are quite popular in the remaining civilized parts of the UK, so not all of Mays’ countrymen share his disdain for all things American. I suspect Mays is too young to remember driving an actual British car such as a Rover or Triumph. As to feeding preferences, my British family greatly prefers eating at any Chilis or Red Robin here in the USA to hazarding a culinary visit to most parts of Londinistan. Cross Putney bridge and you might as well be in Karachi.
Wow, so much vitriol and “My dad is bigger than your dad” schoolyard banter over an article about an article.
Let’s face it, it’s the British national past-time to take the piss out of everything, including themselves, but especially the Americans (and French). Likewise, every bad guy and doofus in US TV and film is a British (or more likely an English) guy, and I’ve lost count of the number of times people have mentioned the dentistry.
Returning to the car industries, there’s a lot more similarities than differences, just the UK is 20 years further down the road to oblivion than the US. Both are/were caused by the same two main problems :
1/ Employees who believe they are being stiffed by management over benefits and are being made scapegoats for the quality of poorly designed and bean-counted vehicles.
2/ Management whose job #1 is to mind their own backs and believe the market should support them solely because they’re the home team.
Same problems, same eventual outcome.
well american cars do suck. and so does most american food. been to olive garden recently? or any other of he big box restaurants? i would rather starve. I prefer small, chef owned places – good luck finding one – fortualtely philadelphia has alot of these.
As for cars, i also really wanna buy a mustang, but the inside sucks so bad, and its so thirsty… oh dammit now im depressed.
I prefer small, chef owned places – good luck finding one – fortualtely philadelphia has alot of these.
Nice self contradiction.
I also hope Katie forgives and forgets, and comes back to our little group. I truly enjoy reading her intelligent and often times quite entertaining (in a car guy/car gal kind of way) commentaries on TTAC.
I’ve lived in the UK for 9 years out of my 1/2 century on earth, two years at an RAF base, 7 years “on the economy” (moved back home to Michigan 14 years ago). So some of the comments about how sarcasm is considered different there than here in the states, I’d have to agree with. I’ve been on the sharp end of much of it over the years, and it is because I have a calm nature that I didn’t lash out in return – after awhile, learning that “it’s different there.”
I have a soft spot for the UK – in fact, married a Brit (now American). I go back on “holiday” when I can. Probably won’t be able to afford to much longer, as the dollar is collapsing against all the other world currencies (the magical “80” minimum that the dollar should stay above in comparison to other world currencies is now at 79.3, only 1 point above the lowest it’s ever been – and watch out below, as the dollar will probably go into free fall now).
But the fact are – the UK has no viable UK owned auto industry. I wasn’t dissing anyone when I mentioned that – this is The Truth About Cars, isn’t it?!
Many of you who read here have probably also seen my comments that if the 2.8 continue as they are, we’ll be joining the UK in not having a locally owned auto industry. I’ve also mentioned the fact that “what exactly is an American car” – my wife’s 2007 Sonata, built in Alabama; or a Ford Fusion built in Mexico? I know my answer….
Once again, if I could petition Katie to come back to the fold, and see fit to rejoin our group, along with others here who have written the same thing – assuming Katie is still even reading this. I hope so. We’ll miss you if you aren’t here, Katie. Show those who’ve upset you that you’re on the moral high ground and forgive and forget.
Admittedly it does irk me to have unenlightened people (not just Brits) trash the USA when most of them have never been here (and I’ve heard and read a lot of this over the decades), but to diss our cars is nothing more than I’ve been doing for the past 5 years myself, after finally being cured of the apparent mental-disease called “BuyAmerican” (since my last “American” car, a 1999 Neon commuter car, was actually built in Mexico, anyway).
So I can also see the flip side and see how Katie can easily take offense at some of the comments on here. Perhaps we should all be a little bit more thoughtful and polite when making generalizations.
Perhaps it would be beneficial to imagine what comments would be thought to be polite if we were all sitting around in a nice circle, in a conversation pit with a fireplace crackling, with Robert and the gang here at TTAC.
Let’s all be civil, shall we? Think a bit before commenting. I know I’ve been guilty of having comments removed and deserved it, so I’m not preaching without having a mirror in hand.
I have been very busy in the last two hours, editing and deleting comments that flame TTAC.
While I understand that many of you feel this editorial opens the door to strong criticism of TTAC’s editorial stance and/or style, it does not. It is about Mr. May’s writing, not ours.
This is, obviously, my call. And I make it in the full knowledge that it seems capricious and self-serving. But experience has taught me that allowing flaming of the site leads to more flaming of the site leads to a total hijacking of the thread and, indeed, the entire comments section.
Some of you may not recall the abuse heaped upon TTAC in its early days. Some of you may not be aware of its current manifestations– because I kill it in its cradle. But I have taken the decision to adopt a zero tolerance policy towards TTAC flaming to preserve this site as a sanctuary for civilized, on-message debate.
I am happy to discuss our editorial policies in private, via robert.farago@hotmail.com. And from time to time, I post a space for people to vent any frustration they feel towards us. I will do so tomorrow, when tempers have cooled.
gakoenig-
yes – philadelphia does have alot of small interesting restaurants – but they are difficult to find. In the suburbs around here there are mostly the awlful restaurant chains.
This Article and the following Comments are another Example how uninformed and thereby unable to put oneself into the mindset of other Cultures, many Citizens of the USA are.
For me the Article and most comments vomit Nationalistic Hypocrisy.
And as always when someone from another Country criticises the USA someone brings up a War and the Soldiers.
This is testimony to how the Education system and Media of most Countries only teach the History of there own Country and preferably the positive parts.
I can guarantee you no Country gets into a War just to help!
The USA joined the UK in the War because if the Nazis had taken Europe the US would have been one of the next targets. (Pearl Harbour)
Are you thankful towards the Soldiers of the Soviet Union who defeated the other half of the Nazi Army thereby securing the life’s of millions of North Americans, or France for helping you against Great Britain in the American Revolutionary War?
Why do you get offended by what an English Journalist writes in an English Newspaper?
You should read articles from the US Media while putting yourself into the mindset of a European or Chinese.
First, I’d like to point out that TTAC is an equal-opportunity basher. I’d suggest you look through the reviews here, where you’ll find positive remarks about “domestic” cars, and negative remarks pertaining to “foreign” cars. The reverse is also true.
Beyone that, Robert Farago: [Said in part.] “The commentator was labeling Mr. May an ingrate for unfairly dissing America when Americans fought and died for their right to free speech.”
My father served in WWII. He was trained to memorize the silhouettes of Japanese aircraft (I remember looking through the book full of silhouettes as a young boy). While hardly a horrific experience, he was assigned to sit in a Jeep, on California beaches, totally exposed to any incoming enemy aircraft that could have flown in from the Pacific. His job was to radio distance and elevation data back to anti-aircraft gunners located farther inland. While the Japanese never invaded, he served with distinction, and had they invaded, I might not be here today.
Further, my middle name is Paul. I use it on all legal documents, and when I sign my name, but I don’t use it here at TTAC. I’m named for my uncle Paul, who was a military pilot killed in action (in Europe) during WWII.
Given my family’s service to our nation during Britain’s “hour of need,” (and our own), I feel I’ve every right to defend what I perceive as cheap shots aimed at America, if not all Americans.
No matter whether defended as the “British national past-time” or some sort of “entertainment” for a UK audience, I find little humor in the “reporting” of Mr. May.
That said, he can bash our cars all he wants, which is fair game, especially in these parts. ;-)
Lastly, I’m sure the TTAC editors would consider a “counterpoint” editorial, should anyone wish to submit one.
[Edit:] For those that feel the spilling of American blood in the past is somehow irrelevant today, in the name of my uncle, I beg to differ.
Right then lets liven the atmosphere up a bit, this is from an email doing the rounds, of quotes from the legendary top gear, notice he does bash other car companies, even british ones (yes strange isnt it)!! the presenters are mainly there for entertainment, they’re opinionated, thats what they get paid, if you dont like what they do then don’t read it/watch it/get wound up by it/them/whatever. There are some american comments in there please don’t get upset and cry, but the french and italians get it too.
This is Britsh humour, you dont get it, thats why they ruined the office by americanising it. Enjoy.
“I’m sorry, but having a DB9 on the drive and not driving it is a bit
like having Keira Knightley in your bed and sleeping on the couch. If
you’ve got even half a scrotum it’s not going to happen.”
“We start tonight with the highlight of my childhood. It’s the
Ladybird Book of Motorcars from 1963, and as you would imagine it’s
full of rubbish really. Just endless boring grey shapes, until you get
to page 40, where you find the Maserati 3500 GT. Now this for me, when I was little, was like kind of Jordan and Cameron Diaz. In a bath together.
With a Lightning jet fighter. And lots of jelly.”
“[about Porsche Cayman S] There are many things I’d rather be doing
than driving it, including waiting for Bernard Manning to come off
stage in a sweaty nightclub, and then licking his back clean”
….”the last time someone was as wrong as you, was when a politician
stepped off an aeroplane in 1939 waving a piece of paper in the air saying there will be no war with Germany”
“America: 250 million w_nkers living in a country with no word for w_nker”
On the Alfa Romeo Brera… “I only have to imagine this in black, with tan leather and I’m nursing a semi!”
Illustrating the lack of power of a Boxster – ‘It couldn’t pull a greased stick out of a pig’s bottom’
On the Vauxhall Vectra VXR: Clarkson: “There is a word to describe this car: it begins with “s” and ends with “t” and its not “soot”.
Hammond: “So its fairly terrible then?”
Clarkson: “Oh no…losing your leg is fairly terrible: this is another league of badness!”
“some say, that he used to throw microwave ovens at homeless people – and that he long before anyone else realised that Jade Goody is a
racist pig faced waste of blood and organs…………all we know, is
that he’s called the Stig!”
“the Suzuki Wagon R should be avoided like unprotected sex with an Ethiopian transvestite”
“Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary… That’s what gets you.”
“The air conditioning in Lambos used to be an asthmatic sitting in the dashboard blowing at you through a straw”
“Koenigsegg are saying that the CCX is more comfortable. More comfortable than what… BEING STABBED?”
“The only person to ever look good in the back of a 4-seater convertible was Adolf Hitler”
(Fed up during the caravaning trip) “You aren’t allowed to have a party, you aren’t allowed to have music, you aren’t allowed to play ball games, you aren’t allowed to have a camp fire, you have to park within two feet of a post, you have to keep quiet, you have to be in bed by eleven. This is not a holiday, it’s a concentration camp!”
“This is the Renault Espace, (its a minvan by the way) probably the best of the people carriers. Not that that’s much to shout about. That’s like saying “Ooh good I’ve got syphilis, the BEST of the sexually transmitted diseases.””
(Mercedes CLs55) “Braking in this car is so brutal, it would be less painful to actually hit the tree you were trying to miss.”
“I don’t understand bus lanes. Why do poor people have to get to places quicker than I do?”
Clarkson’s highway code on cyclists: ‘trespassers in the motorcar’s domain, they do not pay road tax and therefore have no right to be on
the road, some of them even believe they are going fast enough to not be an obstruction. Run them down to prove them wrong’
“I was reading The Mirror the other day and came across a letter from a reader who wrote, ‘I was riding my bike to work when this red Ferrari pulled up next to me. Out of the window, Jeremy Clarkson shouted ‘Get a car’, and drove off.’ What I actually said was, ‘Get a car you hatchet faced, leaf-eating Nazi”
“Britian’s nuclear submarines have been deemed unsafe…probably because they don’t have wheel-chair access”
“If we are being honest HIV is a pathetic virus, it can only live in the air for 6seconds and it does what ebola does to you in 10days in
10years”
“Now we get quite a lot of complaints that we don’t feature enough affordable cars on the show……so we’ll kick off tonight with the
Cheapest Ferrari of them all!”
On the Lotus Elise: “This car is more fun than the entire French air force crashing into a firework factory”
“Now as you can see I lost the battle to have two engines on the back because of three very important reasons. One: weight. This is 600 Lbs
and that’s the same as having a whole American sitting on the tailgate…”
“In the olden days I always got the impression that TVR built a car, put it on sale, and then found out how it handled. Usually when one of
their customers wrote to the factory complaining about how dead he was.”
“the DB9 has rear seats but no mammal yet created, not even when God was on the LSD trip that gave us the pink flamingo, could fit into
them.”
Assessing Hammond’s crash:
Clarkson: “you can see from the tape that the tyre is starting to come apart, now why didn’t you spot that?!”
Hammond: “I had a lot on: I was doing 288 mph.”
Clarkson: “What do you mean you had a lot on? I can be in the office on the phone, doing the paperwork, kids are shouting at me, wife etc,
if a lion walks in, I’m going to notice it!”
“Sure it’s quiet, for a diesel. But that’s like being well-behaved…for a murderer.”
“I dont often agree with the RSPCA as I believe it is an animal’s duty to be on my plate at supper time”
“there are footballers wives that would be happy with this quality of stitching… on their face”
“Racing cars which have been converted for road use never really work. It’s like making a hard core adult film, and then editing it so that it can be shown in British hotels. You’d just end up with a sort of half hour close up of some bloke’s sweaty face. ”
“Much more of a hoot to drive than you might imagine. Think of it, if you like, as a librarian with a G-string under the tweed. I do, and it
helps.”
“you can’t have this car with a diesel, its like saying, I wont go to Stringfellows tonight, I’ll get my mum to give me a lapdance, she’s a woman!”
“During the break we got complaints that we don’t show enough green cars so here’s one…” Pointing to a Lamborghini Murcielago… in bright green
Tonight, the new Viper, which is the American equivalent of a sports car… in the same way, I guess, that George Bush is the equivalent of a President.
(on the Porche Cayenne) “Honestly, I have seen more attractive gangrenous wounds than this. It has the sex appeal of a camel with gingivitis.”
If I could join glenn126’s petition, sign me up. Hopefully, Katie (and any others from across the pond) will be able to look beyond any offensive comments here.
I found May’s article entertaining, and nothing else. Is he a car reviewer? He only spent about one paragraph writing about the cars. Some of my fellow Americans need to lighten up a bit!
Katie —
As a ‘daily TTAC’er’ and native Detroiter, I value and appreciate your contribution to this space. I do hope you reconsider.
I took offense at May’s comments and while going through all of these posts wondered what truly was the difference between the harsh TTAC reviews and Mr. May’s words. In it’s simplest form, when reviewing a vehicle, Mr. May’s lumped the Big 3 together and referred to them as “Americans”. I’m not quoting here but rather trying to summarize/paraphrase: “American junk; crap that America has been building; American cars might genuinely be a bit rubbish; We are constantly amazed at how cheap American cars seem to be.” Instead of directly his Ram comments to “Dodge”, Mustang to “Ford”, etc. Lumping it all togethering and calling it American Rubbish is why so many of us took offense, while those of you in other parts of the world weren’t affected by those comments. It was a small emotional point that we all missed…but is at the heart of this misunderstanding in the comments.
So was it simply human nature that took offense to Mr. Mays’ comments or did he paint with too broad a brush? I think it may be a combination of the two.
But let’s not lose sight of the bigger picture. TTAC is special because of the people it brings together. This one editorial, and some unfortunate/regrettable comments, should not compromise the greater cause…the love of automobiledom.
Yes, and yes.
solbeam: Are you thankful towards the Soldiers of the Soviet Union who defeated the other half of the Nazi Army thereby securing the life’s of millions of North Americans, or France for helping you against Great Britain in the American Revolutionary War?
Whenever this type of debate arises I always think of a Rush lyric from the song “Territories”:
Better the pride that resides
In a citizen of the world
Than the pride that divides
When a colorful rag is unfurled
Nothing like a little nationalism to stoke the fire of a potential flame-fest! Everyone gets a little defensive when their nationality is insulted. Let me join the chorus in hoping that KatiePuckrick comes back. I think she reacted in haste, and I hope that with some reflection she will return.
There is no doubt that Britain has a certain snobbery about it. They were, not that long ago, the pre-eminent imperial power on the planet, so they came by the snobbery honestly. I think there is some collective denial over their diminished influence in world affairs. I also think the “superiority” complex is actually an inferiority complex masquerading as the opposite. I know in Canada much of our anti-Americanism stems from the same feeling of inferiority. We hide it by feeling superior, but in reality we are jealous of America’s success and influence. It is not a comfortable thing to admit, and certainly there is much to admire in Canada (and the UK) vs. the US, but it is what it is.
All that said, I don’t read the excerpts from May’s article as a “shot across the bow of America.” I think that reaction is a little defensive and thin-skinned, and I’m in agreement with several of the commenters here. It seems a little unbecoming for the strong to be so easily insulted by the “weak.” The reaction is understandable given the political climate today (where everyone seems to be ganging up on the US)but TTAC is better than that. (I hope that isn’t construed as flaming the site.)
As for umpter’s “British bast___s” comment, I believe many Europeans are more than a little tired of hearing how the US came in and saved the day. Yes they did in fact provide the might required to force Hitler out of Europe (with more than a little help from the “colonies”) but it wasn’t altruism, or an Englishman’s right to free speech that drove them. After all, the US came late to the party, and only when it was apparent that it was no more in America’s interest to have major trading partners conquested by a fascist dictator than it was in the interest of those that were conquered. Nothing wrong with a little national self-interest, but please don’t dress it up as altruism. (The true altruists were the Americans that signed up to fight with the Canadian forces at the onset of the war.)
Thanks, RF, for your hard work spraying flame-retardant on this thread, because it sure is interesting!
I am going to try to be as delicate about this as I can, because I really don’t want this comment to be deleted.
It baffles me that James May is criticized for lumping all American cars into one big heap of ‘rubbish’ when we do the same thing, whether we’re talking about GM 3.1-litre engines blowing head gaskets, or exploding Pintos, or Chrysler transmissions, or the Explorer/Firestone tire fiasco, or the Rubbermaid analogies when describing GM interiors, and I can go on and on with the mountain of criticism leveled at American automakers. Have a new reader spend six months on this site reading reviews, editorials, and comments, and they’ll come away with the impression that Toyota and Honda can do no wrong, GM, Ford, and Chrysler can do no right.
I really don’t see the difference between May’s views and the views expressed here by writer and commenter alike, except he takes potshots American food, which to me is an oxymoron to begin with.
I don’t agree with Katie a lot, but she’s right on this one. It’s a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
At the risk of insulting Katie and other Brits, I do believe there is some undercurrent of, what, jealousy or something, currently infesting the British media when it comes to America. I subscribe to Car Magazine and if it’s not singing the praises of the latest Porsche it is constantly bashing America, Americans and American cars. (Memo to the editors of Car: I get it already. You don’t like us.)
Are they still mad that we left the embrace of the United Kingdom a couple hundred years ago?
But, hey, cheer up, here in Hawaii we still proudly fly the Union Jack–it’s at the upper corner of our state flag.
Dean and MGo Blue—Your thoughts captured why some Americans feel thin-skinned. The daily onslaught of anti-american comments from around the world becomes tiresome…particularly from the likes of May. This isn’t about criticism about cars or food but something larger.
Katie- I apologize for my use of the word Bast–ard….poor choice of words—-my hope is that you accept my sincere apology and return to the TTAC community.
Note—I have nothing against the British people—in fact My wife was London born and I have worked for a British company for the last 11 years and have great fun with the British sense of humor (which I HAPPILY experience on a daily basis). British humor is one thing. Using British humor as a tool to negatively generalize about Americans on a repeated basis is quite another—May falls into this camp and idiots like him should be called out just like auto company management incompetence is called out on a daily basis here on TTAC.
BostonTeaParty,
thank you for your excerpts, I laughed so hard I nearly cried…god bless the British wit, no matter how it stings. And to make a point here, American cars are mostly competitive only because they are a value proposition. They are made on the cheap, and we all know it. In the UK, a Ford Focus costs $30,000. Sure, it’s better than ours–way better. It also costs twice as much. It should be way better.
Speaking as an American, I find nothing insulting in May’s comments at all – I feel exactly the same way about the vast majority of American cars. Though I question his taste in food.
And I disagree with your assertion that Accords and Camry’s count in this discussion; the point is not about the quality of American labor, but the quality of American management and design, and that criticism is very much warranted.
Remember Lucas wiring?
The wiring was fine. It was the bits on each end of the wires which gave trouble (/rimshot).
Chrysler minivans and Jeeps are popular in the remaining civilized parts of the UK
I thought “civilized” meant the places which were becoming paved and crowded with automobile traffic to a fare-thee-well.
Curious if Suburbia, UK is a picture of the future of Suburbia, USA, or the other way around. I don’t know who wants more of their home state or country to look like a strip mall in Framingham.
Oh please, this coming from the nation that gave us the execrable Austin Marina? Or, thinking more broadly of the EU, the Renault 5, or the Fiat?
Please.
And perhaps he’d care to look at the performance of ‘storied’ (used to not suck) brand like Jaguar and Land Rover, expensive unreliable dreck that they can’t make a dime on.
I think I will write an article about the English and their bad teeth.
NickR
At the last look Land Rover sales had increased, they actually make money and were supporting Jaguar (for quite a few years as a joint company by the way), a fact because Ford left Land Rover to develop the vehicles it knew how to because Ford can’t manage brands, fact. On here you may not like the Land Rover brand but it has history and equity in the premuim market place.
Check your facts mate or i’ll start writing articles about americas fascination with appearance, morgage problems, false boobs and whiter than white teeth. Now we don’t want another tit for tat thing do we? Sorry if i pisd RF off on this one but he’s trolling/flaming whatever you want to call it.
Meh, you guys take this stuff too seriously. May is writing for a British audience, about cars that Ford/Chrysler generally doesn’t even sell in the EU.
So Europeans don’t like cars that are only sold in North America? Goodness, stop the presses.
I think you can get a Mustang in Britain if you try hard enough, but no one does and it’s not as if Ford was expecting to sell thousands of them over there – Ford (and GM) already make a range of European specific models that are quite good, at least according to most of the Top Gear reviews. My German friend often complains that Top Gear is a mouthpiece for Ford, since they seem to love everything Ford makes and Ford as a company can do no wrong. Of course, that is of little relevance to North Americans – A quick look at ford.co.uk reveals that since the demise of the Ford GT, Ford Europe doesn’t share a single common car model(the Mazda-derived Ford Ranger and Escape not technically being “cars”) with Ford North America. My friend is consoled by the fact that the Ford models that TG loves so much, including the Aston Martins’ engines, are all built in Germany. They sell quite well, too. There is NO market outside of the US, Canada and Australia for the type of enormous pickup truck that make up the bulk of the Big 3’s sales here. If there were, Toyota would own it already.
None of the Japanese brands do as well in Europe as they do in North America, at best, they survive with a modest market share. Acura and Lexus has been mostly a failure in Europe. I guess if you put some Americans into those 900cc 3 cylinder Japanese kei-cars that make up the majority of their domestic sales, the obvious conclusion is that the Japanese have no idea how to make cars, right?
I work for a UK-based company, with lots of transoceanic travel, so I know something about this.
I wouldn’t be impressed with the US vehicles he drove either. But I’m not sure why a Brit would criticize them. Every car I’ve been in in the UK (with the exception of a friend’s Mazda RX-8) is exactly the stereotype that an ignorant American redneck would imagine — an absurd, cramped economy car suitable only for a grim people who have learned from German bombings to make do without.
But the really absurd part is criticizing the food. You kidding me? Every Brit I know salivates at the very thought of coming to the US, and they return telling stories of the delicious feasts they’ve had here, and the miraculous FREE REFILLS.
You cannot get bar-b-cue in the UK, and you cannot get Tex-Mex (except at the Texas Embassy near Trafalgar Square).
I’m going to watch Top Gear tonight on BBCA, and be entertained as always.
I didn’t see anything wrong with May’s column, at all. Sure, it painted liberally with broad, stereotype strokes, but in each case it was for comedic effect. A bit of exaggeration, snarkiness and overstatement. The reaction by the columnist, and by some of the commenters, is way overdone. At worst, assuming you don’t agree with his premise, May’s article deserves a rolling of the eyes and “there they go again”. I mean, can anyone really argue that the Mustang is a little sloppy and has interior plastics straight out of a Kinder egg?
The US has wide and straight roads (with lots of stop lights) so most people care about size, acceleration, and ride comfort (because of lots of potholes caused mainly by freeze/thaw weather patterns heaving the pavement) and not about agility…Also, most people now lease for 3-years-and-out so reliability/durability is not too highly valued.
In Europe, the roads wind (man I hate trying to spell english words…Who came up with them!…Some in-bred/drunken “King”?…And don’t get me started on the english weights and measure system…We still use a hacked version of a hack system in the US today…At least the Brits get more beer in their pint…I digress) and it is difficult to tell streets from sidewalks in a lot of places so small size and agility are valued higher…Also, european governments steal most of the peoples earnings and have made driving a car hugely expensive so reliability/duability are highly valued.
Wow, many of you have taken this far far too seriously.
I hope I don’t run afoul of RF’s strict definition of flaming when I say that writing an article about the article gave it (May’s article) more than it was due.
I appreciated the apparently unintended humor in May’s article. He states something to the effect that Brits of his generation expect food to taste like a gift from the gods, then whips up a shepherd’s pie. I like a good shepherd’s pie as much as the next guy, especially when washed down with a pint of porter *, but the best shepherds pie ever made hardly qualifies as a food of (or from) the Gods.
* I’ll drink a Brit brewed porter if I have to, but in Michigan we have several microbreweries that make a better porter, or stout for that matter. I’d choose an Arcadia London Porter, brewed in Battle Creek.
Getting back to sheppard’s pie, the principal ingredients are ground beef and potatoes. We certainly have our faults as a nation, but a lack of good quality beef and potatoes isn’t one of them.
My wife makes a great shepherd’s pie. She marinates the beef in soy sauce, and adds chilli peppers. But she’s from Thailand, where they know something about cooking.
The three vehicles May bashes deserved to be bashed – we’ve all bashed them right here. Don’t understand the hostility in response.
BostonTeaParty
I have to take exception to two things you said – I hope you don’t think I’m being defensive.
1 “…as for bashing the food fair enough, but we ain’t the ones with the national obese health problem…”
Yes, actually you do have a rather, um, large obesity problem. If I’m not mistaken the UK is second only to the US in the number of people who’s asses (arses) look like 10 pounds of potatoes stuffed into a 5 pound sack. (Ask the French if you need confirmation)
2. “… look at housing, you build houses here like we build our garden sheds in the UK. Terrible, too quickly put together not enough care and attention to detail and …’
I’ve heard this from Brits many times, and usually it has to do with an aversion to building with wood. To be fair to you, I invite you to be more specific, as your objection may lay elsewhere. But, as for wood, it’s a cheap and plentiful building material, which allows us to build affordable housing. It’s also quite strong, yet somewhat yeilding. In areas prone to earthquake, actually preferable to brick/block/stone. It’s used widely, throughout the world as a homebuilding material.
Not really sure what insufficient care amounts to, and as for attention to detail, are we going to compare apples to apples? I mean, have you seen some of the row houses in the UK? Detail?
Being British is about driving in German cars to Irish pubs for Belgian beer, going home, getting Indian curry or Turkish kebab to sit on Swedish furniture to watch American shows on Japanese TV.
And the most British thing of all?
Suspicion of anything foreign.
RF – I asked this question on an email once, but I have to ask it again.
Is TTAC really a “worldwide” car site ? Is it meant to be ?
Lets look at the issues basically though, in priority (male oriented) order. Cars, food, beer, women.
Cars – US cars made for the US market do not sell elsewhere. Even Jeep’s vehicles sold in Europe have to be changed significantly to be sold here – fewer V8s, more Diesel, and now the 4×4 market is waning and Mercedes dealers dump the franchise – we shall see how long it survives.
GM has sold Corvettes, Cadillac, Chevy 4x4s and Camaros. All failed.
Ford sold Explorers. They gained a reputation for self-destruction well south of 100k miles.
We used to sell you not very well made or designed or built small cars. We made more in 1948 than you did. But yes, our industry went into the toilet in 1968 and took over 3 decades to finally flush away.
Beware, this is were your car industry is going and for the same reasons.
In the meantime some sober looking “cheps” in suits who went to the “reight” schools in the 1930s made some money. The bloke on the production line and in the street didn’t. This is not a whole nation’s fault.
Food – I can drive 5 miles from here and get Tex-Mex or indeed American food. I do sometimes when in the mood.
I tend towards Indian myself, probably a product of my Indian wife and a better choice around here. I do like my Sunday Roast and indeed salads too. I have been known to visit MacDonalds but only when I need to shift some constipation. Thats my opnion, not the site owner’s.
Beer – I have been known to purchase (from Costco obviously) a crate of American beer, its very refreshing whilst I angle-grind and weld my MGB GT.
I have also been known to quaff a few Guinness of an evening and even hold a warm beer whilst in an English pub.
To the right of my mouse is a Stella.
So what am I, Belgian, British, Irish or American? None. Beer is something noble and to be sampled often (although at least 8-12 hours away from driving only).
But lets be honest, Miller – its genuine horse pee is it not ? To be honest so is anything with the name “Bass” on it – beware.
Women – Now this is hard.
I remember watching the original Katie P on Telly (tell me you are THAT katie please…) and having a brief lust after those stockings.
Mind you I also liked Bjork and Kylie in “that” way. Currently my “desires” are angled (if thats not too suggestive for a family site) in the direction of Bollywood. I have fickle tastes in all women except the one I married and sleep with.
If you have “man lust” towards hamster then thats for you. I have no judgement to make.
Can we get on with saying what cars we think are carp and ones we think are good now ?
And is this (the site) all American or not ?
DP I know but
“In Europe, the roads wind”
Yes, thats because we had them before someone sailed over the pond so people had to walk. Also the landowners (who built their castles before someone sailed over… oh you get it) didn’t like people going straight over their fields. They made the rules so…
Anyway, how else would we know that the Mustang can’t corner as well as a Mk2 Escort ?
(both have (shush) live axles)
I can’t fathom why Glenn Swanson is so annoyed by May’s remarks. This site is differentiated from other US based motoring journalism by lacking a jingoistic rose tinted view of the local industry. Afterall, you have a death watch on the 2.8 remaining indigenous manufacturers.
May is fundamentally correct for the same reasons the 2,8 are in trouble. American vehicles, on the whole, are rubbish. For recent evidence read the Pontiac Grand Pricks review.
An american built Toyoata is, well, still a Japanese motorcar. I don’t see how these vehicles are relevant, save for the shaming demonstration that such a vastly different culture can better understand and meet the needs of american consumers than detroit can.
“America: 250 million w_nkers living in a country with no word for w_nker”
300 million headed for 450, and still no word for w_nkers in sight, but at least we talk about it on TV now.
I get Brits not understanding our pickup trucks. When Europeans first came to North America, their various wagon-building techniques didn’t hold up when people tried to hump them over the Appalachians. So a bunch of guys — not Brits — in Pennsylvania decided enough was enough and the Conestoga Wagon was born. Problem solved. THAT was the beginning of an American bias to vehicle design. Heave cannonballs at my boat? Out pops the Constitution. Gonna take awhile to pave roads in a 3 million square mile country? The body-on-frame rear-drive car is going to hang around awhile longer. Haul 300 pounds of sheetrock now and then? May as well be able to carry a half ton. Who cares if the ride gets a little rough when the bed’s loaded with air? And all that’s before we dig into how Prohibition and moonshiners influenced our car lore.
In that tradition, a Dodge, GM or Ford quad-cab seems entirely reasonable and appropriate personal transportation. Plus we built interstates over the Rockies, so we don’t have to hairpin our way over the continental divide. What’s between the two ranges? Looooong straight roads with right-angle turns even a Ferrari stops for (though on certain nights, some drivers in a Crown Vic, Charger, Mustang or Camaro might not).
But the Mustang? Who doesn’t understand a Mustang?? Add one torquey motor to a dead-simple platform. Wrap it in charismatic sheet metal; sell ’em cheap and add some premium versions for the money crowd. At $45,000 in America, you can have poise and handling refinement in a 431 hp light & lithe Corvette, or a nose-heavy, hair-on-fire brute in the form of a bulkier 500 hp Shelby GT500. What’s the problem? Sure, that $25,000 GT with the 300 ponies is gonna ship from the factory set up to push like a snowplow. That’s just to keep the secretaries and insurance salesmen safe. Dip into the vast aftermarket for springs, shocks, struts, sway bars, brakes, wheels, tires and superchargers, and you can tune your ride from no-turns dragster to annoying Porsches that can’t shake you off in the twisties. Oh…I guess May didn’t drive one of those.
You want less plastic in your ‘Stang? Pony up for the Shelby with the leather dash. Otherwise, shut-up and drive! You think Frank Bullitt gave a rat’s butt about plastic?
Phil
This article reminds me of the beefs between rappers. I don’t think Mr. Swanson is being any more informative than Mr. May. Further, I’m sure he knows damn well that by American, Mr. May is referring to the 2.8, and at least some of his criticism of the RAM is right on target. (the steering.)
I wouldn’t bother to read Mr. May’s original article–not worth my time–and this response wasn’t, either. And that, it seems to me, is at least substantially the fault of the subject matter. Although I did love the line about sarcasm in Britain being a team sport.
Oh, those nasty brits! (Katie, I’m just kidding!!!)
Some other commentators thought that it was silly to consider an Accord a mainstream American automobile.
Honda and Toyota have R&D and design facilities in the US. I don’t know how much of the Accord and Camry are designed in those facilities, but they are specifically designed for the US market. They are built in the US with a considerable amount of US made parts and components. At what point do these become “American” cars?
On the other hand you have GM slapping a badge on cars that were designed and built in Korea or Australia and calling them an American revolution.
As for May, I wouldn’t take what he says too seriously. Taking shots at the US is like taking shots at Toyota; it’s the trendy thing to do.
Now that I’ve gone through about 2/3 of the comments: Katie, come back! Come back!
I might not have gotten the humor in the May article. Although I have a great sense of humor, British humor is my weak point. But I still think the rap artist beef thing is not worthy of TTAC’s time, unless it can be done with great humor.
And I’m glad we helped the Brits and the Soviets save the world from Nazi Germany (my father spent a couple of years during the war in the USSR) and some time before that in UK).
The british bastids comment may or may not have merited being moderated, but it was not exactly anything I’ d consider to be intelligent discussion.
I disagree with most everything ever said on the Daily Show, but I laugh at it anyway.
Mr. May is as much a humorist as he is a car reviewer. I won’t be offended by him anymore than he would be of me making fun of him or his silly little island empire that once ruled much of the world but now lives by selling off the pieces.
Even he can’t believe himself if he is making fun of anyone elses food. Even the British Pubs here make better food than you can buy in the UK. I have been there. The only good restaurants are owned by immigrants.
I will still watch and enjoy Top Gear whenever I get the chance, but I suspect that if they do a special American version it will likely miss.
I think Mr. May has touched a nerve. Which country on Earth drives the most obese cars? And which country on Earth has the largest percentage of obese people? Mr May is making an observation about our lifestyle, but he is not making fun of our revolution, our Founding Fathers, our Constitution, the inscription on our Statue of Liberty, our system of Justice, our forests, our mountains, our orchards, our people made up from all parts of the world.
Personally, I’m not so thin-skinned that I take a jab at Miracle Whip the same way as a jab at say Bob Dylan.
BostonTeaParty: Check your facts mate or i’ll start writing articles about americas fascination with appearance, morgage problems, false boobs and whiter than white teeth. Now we don’t want another tit for tat thing do we? Sorry if i pisd RF off on this one but he’s trolling/flaming whatever you want to call it.
Here we go– again.
When you say “Americas” you really mean the American people. To describe Americans in such overly-simplistic terms is an insult. We’re too large and complex a nation for such catch-phrase-filled viewpoints to describe America or her people.
Many of us are not having mortgage problems, and are not overweight. While some Americans obsess with appearances (bright white teeth and breast enhancement), such descriptions are overreaching generalizations.
If you belive these things describe Americans in toto, you are greatly mistaken.
And that’s the point.
Insist on charicterizing us so if you must, but don’t blame us when we stop listening.
I could see James May missing the point of the Ram. Americans like it because it’s what we grew up with.
It’s the equivalent of a sporty two seat roadster for the Brits.
I can’t imagine him liking the Silverado, F-150, Tundra or Titan either.
Strike the snarky food analogy, add some alliteration, and May sounds like he’s ready to write for TTAC.
Glenn Swanson : Here we go– again.
NickR : I think I will write an article about the English and their bad teeth.
Glenn Swanson : U.S. and the UK are two nations separated by British snobbery.
BostenTeaParty was reacting to the article and comments that described the British people in an overly-simplistic way.
Glenn Swanson : [Edit:] For those that feel the spilling of American blood in the past is somehow irrelevant today, in the name of my uncle, I beg to differ.
So you wont criticise Great Britain its cars or its food because they are fighting in Iraq helping the USA in its war against Terror?
You won’t criticise soviet Russia because it fought in a war alongside the US thereby spilling their blood to keep America a free Country?
If you’ve ever watched the reviews on “Top Gear”, the show is extremely biased towards British vehicles.
In a way, I admire the fact they have pride in what their country does produce, seeing how many Americans seem to have the opposite beliefs – a profound lack of pride in their own products, which comes off as having little confidence in themselves. I don’t think the Japanese go around constantly belittling their own industries.
Like it or not, the Big 3 is a reflection of our culture and our way of life. One has to reflect on the complete loss of our manufacturing base that is owned by the home team says about our culture and our values. Sure, Corporate America is run by a extremely short-sighted and greedy segment of our culture, but we buy how much cheap, Chinese made crap?
The show is very biased towards British products – ever hear them speak about Range Rover? But one would expect that from a French show, Japanese show, etc. Just not in this country.
Hey May! And Katie! How bout them Ford Cortinas? Austins? And Vauxhauls ? Morris Minor? You people sure have some funny looking cars with funny names. Why they’re almost as funny looking as Simca Etoiles and Renault Dauphines. But you people can’t even put your steering wheels on the correct side of the car! Sheesh! Go eat some haggis.
As citizen of USA here is my opinion.
Basically, a country’s ability to dominate the world is proportional to how bad their food is. Britain had bad food and an amazing empire. US has really bad food and even more dominant role as only superpower.
So there you have it – bad food = super power.
Is there anything in the world less edible than Papa John’s Pizza? (“better ingredients make better pizza but they cost more so we don’t bother”).
I rest my case. USA rules.
solbeam: BostenTeaParty was reacting to the article and comments that described the British people in an overly-simplistic way.
You mean in the way Mr. May dismissed (virtually) all Ameican cars (and food)?
A large part of the design and engineering of the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry was done in America, with American tastes in mind. They are largely built in America, by Americans.
Perhaps they aren’t 100 percent American. (Although that doesn’t stop posters from arguing that they should be considered American when the “Buy American” crowd wants to limit choices to the old Big Three. Many of said posters are now taking the opposite view.). But they certainly aren’t 100 percent Japanese, either.
Given that they were originally exported to America, were embraced by the locals, have evolved and grown into vehicles that are now quite popular with Americans, and have had a tremendous impact on the home-grown industry and the look of America’s streetscapes, it may be that the Accord and Camry are more American than people want to admit.
Geeber:
The original article was written with British readers in mind and to most British readers believe that American Cars are essentially the products of the big three / 2.5 / 2.8. Most don’t know the dominance, or near dominance, of the US market by the transplants.
Honda, Toyota and Nissan make essentially different ranges for different markets. The US Accord is different from the European one which in turn is not as bonkers as the Japanese domestic market model – each is tuned to the target market and each maker has manufacturing bases in those markets just like GM and Ford do in Europe.
All of those makers and the Koreans, Malaysians and probably soon the Indians and Chinese make cars which never see the US or indeed anywhere except their home markets.
In essence the cars sold in the US are really I suppose American, thats why they sell well. The ones sold elsewhere aren’t.
And in any case the ultimate profit doesn’t go to Detroit.
Then again profit, Detroit ? Hmmm.
TaxedAndConfused: I would agree that most British readers – along with readers on the Continent – don’t realize just how popular the transplants really are, or how much they have been influenced by American tastes (and, in turn, have influenced the American car makers and consumer expectations).
Like many immigrants, the Accord and Camry have taken root here, flourished on American soil, and evolved in a direction that is distinctly American, and could thus be considered at least partially American.
I never found the “where the profits go” argument to be very convincing. All of the big car companies are multinational corporations that sell their products all over the world.
Honda and Toyota are using some of those profits to expand engineering, styling and production facilities in the U.S. This benefits Americans (and Honda and Toyota, which can better tune their products to American tastes).
As I and others said before you have to put this article into its context:
– English TopGear presenter writes for English Newspaper.
– Top Gear is a part of general British culture. (one of the most watched shows on TV)
– Everybody in Britain knows what to expect from a TopGear presenter: Bold inordinately overstated, exaggerated and therefore funny statements. That shouldn’t be taken too seriously.
They do make fun off every country its food its culture even their own.
-They do make fun of British food, so the whole shepherd’s pie thing should be seen as mostly Ironic. May’s role in the show is to be the typical “snobbery” Englishmen. He is made fun of in the show for being that.
They aren’t coherent they will hate on a car and the country it comes from on one episode and love it the other.
All this is part of the British culture and you are free to dislike it. But you should put things into context.
I don’t see how making fun of a country’s food and cars could hurt anybody’s personal feelings! Telling someone he has bad teeth or is a snobbery ba-tard could.
–
The whole Honda, Toyota thing:
If you see Honda, Toyota’s US products as American cars then Bentley, Rolls-Royce, MINI, Land Rover, Lotus, TVR, Aston Martin et cetera are all truly British cars.
Are European Ford and Opel German cars then?
The truth hurts.
For an island as small as Britian, a stagering number of excelent cars are built there. If you are going to call US assembled Hondas a mainstream American car then what are Britian assembled Honda Civics or Toyota Corrolas? If you want to test one of the finest British cars then you’d have to look at a Lotus Elise, Ariel Atom or Noble M12. In either case, the Ford Mustang convertible comes up looking pretty lacking.
solbeam: If you see Honda, Toyota’s US products as American cars then Bentley, Rolls-Royce, MINI, Land Rover, Lotus, TVR, Aston Martin et cetera are all truly British cars.
Are European Ford and Opel German cars then?
Yes and yes.
tankd0g: If you want to test one of the finest British cars then you’d have to look at a Lotus Elise, Ariel Atom or Noble M12. In either case, the Ford Mustang convertible comes up looking pretty lacking.
I would hope that those vehicles are better than a Mustang convertible, as they are all considerably more expensive than a Mustang in the United States.
And none of those cars would be superior to the Mustang as a daily driver. People don’t spend all of their time behind the wheel on the skidpad.
If you are going to call US assembled Hondas a mainstream American car then what are Britian assembled Honda Civics or Toyota Corrolas?
The point that was being made is that these companies have US engineering and design teams designing cars specifically for an American audience, so that the cars themselves are quite “American” despite the foreign management team.
There’s quite a bit of truth to that. The Accord built in the US was designed by American engineers specifically for an American audience (these cars are larger than their European and Japanese namesakes). The Camry is also sized with American tastes in mind. These cars are best sellers in the US in part because they are US-centric designs. Similarly, the Acura TL was made specifically with US tastes in mind, with almost none sold outside the US and Canada.
So the situation is not analogous to what is happening in the UK. The US is one of the world’s largest car markets, so automakers make a concerted effort to address US consumer tastes.
geeber: If the Ford mustang bendable is one of America’s finest cars, then America is in some serious trouble. If you want to compare daily drivers, I’d take the British built Civic Type-R over everything on our side, including the Civic SI that Honda jamed us with!
Pch101 :
Perhaps May had to trim his critism of the recent crop of less than stellar Camcords due to space constraints. They are only better cars compared to their 2.8 competition. I’m sure he wouldn’t have been impressed by those, either. I’m sure if he had driven every car in America he would have found a few he liked. On Top Gear he loved the Honda Element. Designed in California for the “surfer youth” market, actually sells to a record number of senior citizens because only they can afford it and has great walker access. But I digress. The US market for the most part calls for big floaty cars with lots of flash and little substance. Whether you are ashamed of that or proud of it, the fact is the rest of the world doesn’t understand it and is going to criticize when the opportunity presents itself.
The US market for the most part calls for big floaty cars with lots of flash and little substance. Whether you are ashamed of that or proud of it, the fact is the rest of the world doesn’t understand it and is going to criticize when the opportunity presents itself.
It’s fairly easy to understand. Different conditions and budgets lead to different products being produced for different markets. There are a whole host of cars sold in Europe that work nicely there but that would be horribly out of place on American highways, and vice versa.
It’s not a matter of right or wrong, but what works well in each setting. I tend to prefer European-style cars myself, but it’s not surprising that a country with cheaper fuel, larger highways, longer traveling distances, and more time spent behind the wheel would have tastes that skew toward seeing driving comfort as a virtue.
It’s not just the US where this is evident. New world countries such as Australia and Canada also tend to favor larger cars. The Aussies have had a rivalry between GM and Ford that is on par with what Americans used to have. It’s not surprising — they, too, have vast driving distances and have had pump prices more in line with those in the US than in Europe.
It’s culturally chauvinistic to apply one’s ethnocentric tastes to a foreign land. Europe’s $6 fuel and lack of parking space are not issues that Americans need to deal with. Why should they necessarily want the same products?
Americans will have to deal with it soon enough. Hopefully there will be a manufacturer left to meet the need.
tankd0g: If the Ford mustang bendable is one of America’s finest cars, then America is in some serious trouble. If you want to compare daily drivers, I’d take the British built Civic Type-R over everything on our side, including the Civic SI that Honda jamed us with!
I never said that the Mustang was one of America’s finest cars. It is very good for what it is. Comparing it to the cars you mentioned makes as much sense as comparing a Toyota Camry to a Mercedes S-Class.
Again, the Civic Type-R is a different car aimed at different buyers. It is not a Mustang competitor, and most Americans would not cross shop these two cars, if the Civic Type-R were available here.
tankd0g: The US market for the most part calls for big floaty cars with lots of flash and little substance. Whether you are ashamed of that or proud of it, the fact is the rest of the world doesn’t understand it and is going to criticize when the opportunity presents itself.
We like cars with smoother rides because we drive longer distances, and our roads are straighter and wider than those in Great Britain and the continent. It’s not a matter of one type being superior to the other; it’s a matter of cars being built to suit local preferences.
One is not “better” than another; they are just different.
Smart manufacturers capitalize on this.
This is why Accords built in America are different from those sold in Europe or Japan. It is also why Honda and Toyota have grown to their present size in the U.S., while the Italian, British and French manufacturers either packed up and went home or became niche manufacturers.
As for U.S. vehicles not having any “substance” – sorry, can’t buy it. An American-built pickup truck is tough and has lots of substance. Yes, you cannot take a Dodge Ram or Ford F-150 around the skidpad quickly, but people don’t buy them to do that, anymore than they buy a Lotus Elise to haul plywood.
solbeam:
– English TopGear presenter writes for English Newspaper.
– Top Gear is a part of general British culture. (one of the most watched shows on TV)
– Everybody in Britain knows what to expect from a TopGear presenter: Bold inordinately overstated, exaggerated and therefore funny statements. That shouldn’t be taken too seriously.
Unfortunate about that world wide web thing, eh?
Americans will have to deal with it soon enough. Hopefully there will be a manufacturer left to meet the need.
It’s fairly obvious that Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, Mercedes Benz and BMW, among others, are ready to meet that need. All of them operate factories in the US and build products designed with Americans in mind. With this large of an audience, targeting American requirements is not going to be a problem.
geeber: The original comment was that she should have driven one of America’s finer cars.
As for U.S. vehicles not having any “substance” – sorry, can’t buy it. An American-built pickup truck is tough and has lots of substance. Yes, you cannot take a Dodge Ram or Ford F-150 around the skidpad quickly, but people don’t buy them to do that, anymore than they buy a Lotus Elise to haul plywood.
Most Americans don’t buy said behemoths to haul plywood, either. So that’s not much of an argument. Many, MANY people in North America will put up with a poor, even dangerous handling truck that costs a fortune in upkeep as their daily driver just to be seen as being able to do so, even if they are $40,000 in CC debt. and work at Walmart. This perpetuates the stereotype that Americans are wasteful and gobbling up the worlds resources as a disproportionate rate. And unfortunately, the statistics show that to be true. You have the freedom to do what you want, but if you can’t take the critism that’s your problem, not every one else’s.
It’s fairly obvious that Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, Mercedes Benz and BMW, among others, are ready to meet that need. All of them operate factories in the US and build products designed with Americans in mind. With this large of an audience, targeting American requirements is not going to be a problem
Exactly. Notice the 2.8 names you left out?
Notice the 2.8 names you left out?
Sure. I’ll make the same point to you that I make to the domestic cheerleaders — I don’t see how that matters.
Just as long as good companies make products that we want, there is no issue. The fact that they build them locally using domestic parts and labor is an added benefit.
These companies are all multinationals at this point. All of them have business interests globally, even GM and Ford. There’s no need for flagwaving of any sort when it comes to the already-globalized auto industry.
tankd0g: The original comment was that she should have driven one of America’s finer cars.
James May drove the Mustang convertible and didn’t like it. It was one of the cars that he criticized in his article, so I don’t see how anyone would then suggest he drive a Mustang because it is a better example of America’s car making abilities.
tankd0g: Most Americans don’t buy said behemoths to haul plywood, either. So that’s not much of an argument.
Originally you said that American vehicles lack “substance” and I responded that domestic pickup trucks are quite tough, and can haul heavy loads, and they should be judged by that criteria, not on how well they can go around the skidpad.
Whether Americans are using them to haul plywood or anything else is irrelevant – the point is, the vehicles have substance, and are tough enough to take what owners throw at them.
Statistics may show that they people don’t haul loads or tow trailers THE MAJORITY of the time that they drive said vehicles, but that does not mean that they aren’t using the vehicle’s capabilities on a regular basis. It also shows that the trucks are versatile vehicles – they can perform both light (driving to work) and heavy (hauling and towing) duties.
Quite frankly, I have the strong feeling that your statistics are either biased or meaningless, designed more to “prove” the researcher’s beliefs than to find the truth.
tankd0g: Many, MANY people in North America will put up with a poor, even dangerous handling truck that costs a fortune in upkeep as their daily driver just to be seen as being able to do so, even if they are $40,000 in CC debt. and work at Walmart.
Anyone who works at Walmart, unless he or she is a manager or has a well-paid spouse, is not driving a brand-new, $40,000 truck. They could be driving a used pickup, which does not cost $40,000.
And the handling of trucks is not “dangerous” by any stretch of imagination, unless you are going to take one around the skidpad or down a country road at triple-digit speeds.
People understand a truck’s limitations, and drive them accordingly. If they don’t, that is not the truck’s fault, and it does not make the vehicle dangerous.
tankd0g: This perpetuates the stereotype that Americans are wasteful and gobbling up the worlds resources as a disproportionate rate. And unfortunately, the statistics show that to be true. You have the freedom to do what you want, but if you can’t take the critism that’s your problem, not every one else’s.
We use more energy because we have more need for air conditioning and heating than most European countries. No European country (except for the European part of the Soviet Union) has our extremes of weather within its borders. When I was in Dallas, Texas, in August, two British tourists in a Starbucks remarked, “No wonder everything is air conditioned; the heat is unbearable!” (It was 100 degrees F.)
Most Europeans have a poor idea of what our weather is really like, especially the hot parts in the southern U.S.
By contrast, when I was in London in August 2005, the local populace was wailing about the heat, which was…about 75 degrees F. Which is considered quite pleasant over here! And very few buildings were air conditioned, even though they were still hot and uncomfortably stuffy.
We also have longer distances to drive. As someone once said, “In England, 100 miles is a long trip; in America, 100 years is a long time.”
Mr Swanson
solbeam:
– English TopGear presenter writes for English Newspaper.
– Top Gear is a part of general British culture. (one of the most watched shows on TV)
– Everybody in Britain knows what to expect from a TopGear presenter: Bold inordinately overstated, exaggerated and therefore funny statements. That shouldn’t be taken too seriously.
Unfortunate about that world wide web thing, eh?
The irony of this comment is killing me.
I’m of the “let it roll of our back” school of thought here. The fact is, when you’re on top, people will do anything they can to try and cut you down. It doesn’t diminish your standing, in fact, it reinforces it.
May certainly seems to have picked the lowest of the low hanging fruit, though. Fast food is bad for you? Wow. I had no idea. Pickup trucks have harsh rides? Amazing, I would never have guessed that a vehicle that is designed to still be safe while carrying 2,000lb of rocks might have a rough ride when it’s unladen.
Do you have to go to J School to figure this stuff out?
I do have to ask a question of May’s British defenders, though: If an American auto journalist went to the UK and wrote an article denouncing the dreary weather; tiny little clown cars; warm beer; and horrible dental work, would the British faithful just shrug their shoulders and say “hey it’s just an American writing for an American audience?” Would they admiringly say “Oh yeah, he’s got our number!” Or would they denounce it as further proof that American simplicity, American arrogance, and that Americans are contemptuous of anything from outside their borders?
I think we all know the answer to that one…
Guys guys guys… do that many people REALLY think the Mustang is a piece of crap? For God sakes, its got rear wheel drive, a 300HP V8, and can be had decently equipped (including leather) for 25K out the door. Obviously when you’re offering those three things together you’ve got to cut costs somewhere so the interior is pretty cheap even with the upgrade package and the ride/handling balance is all wonky. We live in an age where even 4 cylinder Camrys can cost that much and you guys want to pile on the Mustang?
That being said, any objective American knows we make worse cars on a whole than the Europeans and the Japanese. But we’ve still got some damn good muscle cars.
“Guys guys guys… do that many people REALLY think the Mustang is a piece of crap?”
Not everybody digs muscle cars. Anyone can drop a big engine into a lackluster chassis.
For what it’s worth, the UK’s Auto Express actually liked the Mustang GT convertible: http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/firstdrives/56666/ford_mustang.html
Even Jeremy Clarkson passed a grudging nod in its direction, even though he wasn’t thrilled with the driving dynamics: http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/driving/jeremy_clarkson/article569952.ece
Jonny Lieberman did the TTAC review, and essentially agreed with Clarkson — not a great car, but somehow pretty cool. I guess we’re not always separated by a common language, after all.
It seams I have to clarify my points.
Don’t know if it’s worth the effort. (Most probably not)
I don’t like this editorial of James May.
I think it’s an easy shot and it’s flirting with the Anti-American crowd.
Jokes about American and English food are so old I think my grand dad wouldn’t laugh.
All Americans are fat so their cars are fat is equally old.
You have to see it as a “Saturday night live” sketch or “daily show” or something.
And I know it’s a really bad one!
So I didn’t say what he wrote was ok because he said it to a British audience.
I said it was ok because he said it to a British audience who knew he was joking.
“Joking” in this context has to do with British humour.
Now I have to explain British humour which would be difficult and lengthy. (And I’m not really an expert to say the least.) Try: Google, Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_humour
Now the reactions in the article and in the comments aren’t any better!
This is a prime example of a cultural misunderstanding.
As I see it:
“May once again reveals that the U.S. and the UK are two nations separated by the British humour.”
Aah, good to see an inferiority complex in full swing.
It is endlessly amusing to watch Americans laugh as the Brits savage each other, and then react like whipped puppies when they are the target.
I do have to ask a question of May’s British defenders, though: If an American auto journalist went to the UK and wrote … Would they admiringly say “Oh yeah, he’s got our number!” Or would they denounce it as further proof that American simplicity, American arrogance,
erm
The fact is, when you’re on top, people will do anything they can to try and cut you down
er, nail, thumb, no ?
I have noticed that several responses have drawn attention to poor dentistry. Its nice to know that Stateside people dont rely on baseless bizarre prejudice to inform their snobbery. They might have been as guilty as May.
erm
The fact is, when you’re on top, people will do anything they can to try and cut you down
er, nail, thumb, no ?
No.
The US is the world’s largest economy. The US is the world’s sole remaining “superpower.” Those are not opinions, they are facts.
The US is the world’s largest economy. The US is the world’s sole remaining “superpower.” Those are not opinions, they are facts.
The first is something which may change.
I think, possibly not too long in the future, China may argue about the second.
Stating that the US is the world’s sole superpower is and always has been an opinion. Fifteen years ago it would have been the correct one… today that’s debateable.
Btw, that link Pch101 posted with Clarkson reviewing the Mustang GT is dead on… both about the car and analysis of the American car culture.
Errrr, Martin have you looked at China, and to some extent India and Russia lately. Is that as in super power sticking its nose into far too many things that aren’t its business, that the world quite frankly has had enough of?
We get back to how its been mentioned lots that the UK has an island like snobbish mentality to the world, well guess what america, take a look in the mirror, you have the same mentality. You say you have the worlds biggest economy, ok, but you have the worlds biggest debt, an economy seemingly based on credit thats catching up with you mightily fast, that looks like its just been saved, by making that credit easier to get to again. Viscious circles. A currency that is being replaced by other safer currencies as the dollar is still at risk of crashing for investors, doesnt look that rosy to many.
As for a journo going to the UK to write about our diverse weather and food go ahead, even write about our economical cars (which is starting to happen here by the way, look to your coasts where trends initiate, watch your gas prices rise then watch how buying trends change further from your gas guzzlers.)that you dont need to tow a petrol tanker behind to keep them running, then fine, we’d slap him on the back and take him down the pub and buy him a beer. Because we know its true, we’re not that shallow! Only thing being its been pretty sunny lately he might want his suncream with him when he goes, and an umbrella cos like michigan the weather is its own boss.
BostonTeaParty and some of the other Brits are missing Mr. Albright’s point, so allow me to indulge myself and point it out.
Simply put, it seems that you can dish it out, but you can’t take it. You’d like to be able to slag the Yanks until the cows come home, but when it comes flying back in your direction, you don’t like it very much.
What’s fair is fair. Above, I presumed that May’s bit is humor, a matter of just taking the piss. But the more somber reactions here from the Old Worlders to the bad teeth/ bad food cheap shots implies that the Briticisms may actually be serious and are no joke at all. Bloody hell, if you can’t handle the blowback, why hurl the snarkiness our way in the first place?
I think Mr Alrbight’s comment was somewhat blunted by the fact he indulged in the arrogance he suggested we Brits would bring up. And I think some people also agree its based on a premise which is on some shaky ground, if not now then in the very near future.
I would suggest the “can’t take it” point is actually the other way round – go back and read the original TTAC response editorial and tell me who is being precious.
I’m still kind of wondering how suggesting a Dodge Caravan is not a very good car is “impure, adulterated bile”.
I think Katie P pointed this out on page 1 of this death march of comments.
I think Mr Alrbight’s comment was somewhat blunted by the fact he indulged in the arrogance he suggested we Brits would bring up.
And which you did, in fact, bring up. Which was sort of my point….
Exactly. What he ^ said. ;-)
Down with the British!
Typical snobbery from an aristocratic wannabe residing in the Formerly Great Britain.
I could tolerate such criticism from Germans, Japanese, Italians or even the French, but from a country that produces nothing?
I could tolerate criticism about American food from just about anyone, but from a resident of a country that considers “faggots and peas” to be high cuisine? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_%28food%29
Let’s not even mention Herr Hitler, because if it weren’t for the USofA, King George would have been walking around with Kaiser Willy’s hobnailed jackboot stuffed squarely up his ass.
Let’s not even mention Herr Hitler, because if it weren’t for the USofA, King George would have been walking around with Kaiser Willy’s hobnailed jackboot stuffed squarely up his ass.
Perhaps as they were cousins he wouldn’t have minded. However turning up late for one war being perhaps a mistake, but for two is downright shoddy.
We laugh at ourselves the best – see here.
Modern Detroit metal DOES suck: What it has in size it lacks in refinement and taste.
Modern American food DOES suck: What it has in size, it ALSO lacks in refinement and taste.
This stated, classic British cars went bankrupt and Classic British food DOES suck.
Move to Italy, Germany or Japan for excellent food and cars.
Move to Latin America for good food, forget about cars.
Move to Asia Pacific for cheap food and cheap cars.
Move to Africa for no food and no cars.
” …However turning up late for one war being perhaps a mistake, but for two is downright shoddy…. ”
We had an appointment to keep?
Dynamic88
We had an appointment to keep?
Exactly. During WWI, Americans could have watched the Germans kick the faggots&peas out of the English and it would have made no difference to the USA.
In the long run, it would have probably been better for the world, since things would have been properly settled — there would have been no excuse for a Hitler.