The gloves are off; GM's Vice Chairman Bob Lutz and Toyota's U.S. VP for Communications, Irv Miller, are having an alternative powerplant smackdown. On a company web site today, Miller wrote "the advanced lithium-ion batteries that the Volt would use, batteries suitable for the long-term rigors of everyday automotive use, don't exist" while pointing out the Prius uses "market-ready" technology. Lutz, never one to let facts come between him and his opinions, still insists the Volt will be ready for the market in 2010. He countered Miller's remarks in an interview with Bloomberg at the Frankfurt Auto Show: "People have a very simplistic [view]: Toyota … are saving the planet from certain destruction, whereas General Motors … is the anti-Christ that's trying to plunge us into the abyss. The only way we can get out of that is by being more environmental and leading with more environmental technology than Toyota." Uh, hello? Bob? It's hard to lead when you're relying on technology that doesn't exist yet– and that the competition has publicly stated they'll also adopt, you know, as soon as someone invents it.
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That volt is a revolting looking car. It looks like someone dropped a grand piano on it. Given that the battery technology it relies on is still vapourware maybe we should call it the ‘ohm’ or the ‘megaohm’. Bob might as well wait for the flux capacitor and the ‘Mr. Fusion’ to be invented, then he could run it on banana skins and coke cans!
You know what this is? Its a hoverboard…
Is Toyota feeling “heat” with plug in hybrids, and the possibility that the Prius might or could be overshadowed?
Which technology does not exist?
AGR
There is no doubt that some day the Prius and it’s technology will be overshadowed by newer technology. It is an excellent first attempt at a really useful hybrid vehicle. GM may be the one who will rollout the vehicle to do it (I hope so) but having a great idea that goes one better and having it available at your local Chev dealer are two different things. One lives in hope.
Toyota is being very cautious, whereas GM has nothing to lose.
Gotta’ love MaxBob. Definately took over for Lido as the industries “quote of the day” generator.
In the real world…for the price of a Prius GM offers the Aura brownline. The Aura gets milage comprable to the better mid size sedans but manages to be way slower. And more expensive. Cool.
The Prius will run neck and neck with the Brownline in acceleration and slap an extra 20mpg on top of the deal.
When GM actually delivers something they can talk.
By the way Mr. Lutz, to get the Volt out in 2010 you would have to have the production prototypes pretty much finalized. Last I heard no one knows the size, shape, location, performance or cost of the batteries. Let’s say 2014-15? Maybe?
The Prius is a parallel hybrid where the Volt is a series hybrid, slightly different approaches. Long term a series hybrid is a more viable and simpler solution.
Hymotion makes a conversion to turn a Prius into a plug in…Click Here.
AC Propulsion converts Scion xBox to a fully electric eBox…Click Here.
ISE Corporation sells series hybrid buses to municipalities…Click Here.
Toyota may think they can adopt any new tech, but not if GM can buy up production. There is one thing that big corporate players in the US still do well – cheat. Either GM is cheating by simply lying about the prospects, or they are cheating because they have their eye on a contract to buy out the likely players who produce the batteries (By ‘buy out” I mean buy all their product, or their company and patents).
In the latter scenario, Toyota would find they could not buy the batteries at any price.
As much as I disdain the present managers at GM, I know they have their talents. I just wish they had talents that were more valuable to the rest of us.
Is Toyota so foolish as to not have contracts with the battery makers themselves?
I didn’t read that comment too closely; at first I thought that *Toyota* would be the one buying out GM’s suppliers.
Because Toyota is the one with, y’know, money to spend on stuff like that.
I love the comment Bunter1 made
“When GM actually delivers something they can talk.”
In the meanwhile, I drive right past the GM dealers in town and my 2nd Prius, a 2008, will be here in a couple weeks – my 2005 Prius was up for sale on my work intranet for less than a few hours and I already have interest in buying it.
I’ll be on my 3rd or 4th Prius by the time GM brings out this reVOLTing development (sorry, I just could not RESIST).
Yes, oboylepr, you’re right – it DOES look like someone dropped a grand piano on it! Man… what are these guys in motown SMOKING? (Clearly, it’s not LEGAL STUFF).
Which technology does not exist?
Lithium ion batteries capable of several hundred deep discharges without significant loss of capacity, that’s what.
starlightmica,
Lithium Ion batteries can easely accomadate 500 charge cycles with current technology without any significant capacity loss. They do not need to be deep discharged, they are more responsive to partial charging.
Take a look at A123.
How many times in the past has GM rushed an unfinished/underdeveloped car to market? Sounds like they like repeating history. Just because they are first to market doesn’t mean they will be a success, especially if the Volt comes out like the rest of their products after being through the GM meat grinder. Unfinished goods usually send sales in the opposite direction in the end.
Before I’d buy a Prius, I’d thumb rides or walk! The only way to get any respect driving a Prius is the Al Gore, jr. way… get loaded and drive the crappy little POS flat out. When they stop you, you can say, “If I could have afforded a Corvette, you wouldn’t have caught me.”
Lutz has publicly stated GM will get their lithium-ion battery car to market before Toyota. He's "100% sure" they won't have the heat issues that slowed Toyota's introduction of a plug-in Prius. He's also stated they'll have the drive system on the road in test vehicles next spring.
If you read other car-related sites/blogs, you’ll occasionally run across some snot-nosed 15 year old who talks smack about the EVO/STI/Z-06 he’s gonna buy some day and how much faster his car once he’s done modding it will be than your car is today.
That kid is Bob Lutz.
Every manufacturer seems to have some sort of an hybrid with Lithium Ion batteries from the buzz coming out of Frankfurt since this morning.
One manufacturer has this, the other has a that, and the next one a something else. They are all playing the green / hybrid game, with differing versions of “mine is better than yours”.
If all this talk directs additional funds to battery and controller R&D we are all ahead of the game.
Let them talk, let them boast, and let the money flow towards battery R&D. Once the global automotive shooters all talk lithium ion, its a positive step.
At least GM had the EV1 for awhile…toyota does not have any plug in experience so far
What trash talk by this Lutz guy! Give me a freakin break already!
Look, Toyota is already 100 steps ahead of GM in this Hybrid game. GM gave it a shot several years back with I believe was the Electric EV1 and gave up in only a short couple of years.
Toyota gave it a shot using a different but VIABLE approach around the same time and is still in the game making a big success of it as I type this with Prius 2.0.
Lutz is a fool to bring forth this arguement now. This is a challange that as it stands right now looking into the future GM will lose.
Creating the car is only a small part of the entire Hybrid equation. Selling and properly servicing these vehicles is the rest. Like it or not Toyota has an enormous head start on the rest of the field. Toyota dealers are already servicing 10s of thousands of Hybrids all over the world. Their expectise in this field will only continue to grow.
Oh, keep in mind why the Prius is such a success today. It is not because it is “green” and fuel efficient. It is because it WORKS and does so in a hassle free manner. Even with its electric components and power it is still essentailly a gasoline powered vehicle that the owner simply fills the tank with gas like every other car on the market today. The gas engine is powerful enough to handle any load put on the Prius without electrical support, and if I am correct it will still function in the event of a failure of the electric motors and batteries. This is truly a car that can be driven anywhere, across the country if need be.
csolstad-
actually Toyota is testing plug ins on the road currently.
GM is still TALKING about how theirs will be better.
Hey, I’m not a Toyota guy myself, but they are the ones DOING it.
glen126-thanks, glad you enjoyed it.
Bunter
Actually GM does have hybrids on the road today:
http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewmonthlyreleasedetail.do?domain=39&docid=37058
They just decided to start using it in large people movers instead of small ones. But of course they sold the division that owns the technology.
You can tell MaxLutz himself..he’s just posting the following,
“Frankfurt Report: The Opel Flextreme Diesel Concept”
on the fastlane blog…
http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/archives/2007/09/frankfurt_repor.html
And I quote,
“As I’ve said before, I’m more excited about the Chevrolet Volt than anything else I’ve seen in my many decades in the auto industry. This week in Frankfurt, we unveiled a European version of the E-Flex line, which we call the Opel Flextreme diesel concept…
A parallel hybrid is an ICE powered vehicle assisted by an electric motor, this technology will not free the planet from its dependence on fossil fuels and ICE powered vehicles.
A series hybrid is an electric powered vehicle assisted by an ICE to charge the battery pack, this vehicle would have plug in capabilities. The motive power is the electric motor and battery pack.
Toyota service departments are not servicing cars powered by electric motors, and their knowledge base in servicing cars powered by electric motors is the same as everyone else. They are servicing vehicles powered by an ICE, assisted by an electric motor with Metal Hydride batteries. Toyota is relunctant to change their batteries to Lithium Ion, on the premise that they are dangerous. The upcoming largest vehicle manufacturer on the planet is so challenged by the emerging technology of Lithium Ion batteries, that they prefer to stay with parallel hybrids, old technology batteries, and a dependence on ICE from the primary motive power.
Prius is not the only parallel hybrid that works, its advantage is that its the only one that is markedly different from the non hybrid version, which does not exist in the case of the Prius.
A series hybrid powered by an electric motor is a better future oriented concept that a parallel hybrid powered by an ICE.
A series hybrid has instant torque from the electric motor or motors, a parallel hybrid still has an ICE, a transmission. A series hybrid does not need a transmission.
Both the serial and parallel hybrid are still dependent on an ICE to make them useful. There aint today and there wont be a battery technology in the near future that will make an electric car viable without an ICE.
Even if someone comes up with a viable totally electric car we will still be burning fossil fuel somewhere to provide power for that said car. You can get something for nothing! Well, we in the USA could embrace nuclear power like the rest of the world (that is another story).
BTW, with the current state of our electrical grid in the USA I think I will go with the car that can function without a power cord. Think about it, every year the demand for electrical power increases just like the demand for fossil fuel.
For what it is worth I do not see too much difference between the serial and parallel other than how they put the power to the ground. Both require a combination of electric motors and ICE to function, both will still require gasoline or diesel, a parallel can be made into a plug-in also. Yes the serial will be better just like a hydrogen powered car would be better than any hybrid but the point is to not get ahead of ourselves here.
The real question is, is the serial hybrid concept viable by 2010 as GM wants us to believe or is Toyotas’s slow and steady approach the better way to go?
If I were a betting man I would put my chips on Toyota.
The series hybrid is the better solution IMO, power the vehicle with electric motor or motors, do away with the transmission, and take advantage of regenerative braking.
When and how these vehicles would get charged is a challenge with a wider societal scope than just the vehicle. Most household electrical installations cannot deal with a quick charge system requiring between 50 to 70 amps without electrical alterations / modifications. Most electrical grids could not sustain plug in vehicles being charged during the day. These vehicles would have to be charged at night.
For commuter vehicles the progression would be from gas (fossil fuel) parallel hybrid, to gas / electric plug in hybrid either parallel of series,
to fully electric plug in. Revenues would shift from gasoline suppliers to electric power suppliers.
One might see electric quick charge stations replacing gas stations.
csolstad: “At least GM had the EV1 for awhile…toyota does not have any plug in experience so far…”
Not so. Although I believe most were returned to Toyota at lease end, some people are still driving their Rav4-EVs. It was at least as successful as the EV-1.
Those batteries do exist and they work great: http://killacycle.com/ Same brand batteries that will be in the Volt. A larger format cell comes out in Dec: http://www.a123systems.com/newsite/index.php#/products/cells32series/
GM is betting the company on this E-Flex drive system.
Converting the Prius to a plug in is done in an afternoon by a number of companies. If Toyota wants to sell a plug in, it could be on the market by morning. the Volt on the other hand will still be an empty plastic model 2 years from now.
AGR : He meant without exploding.
GM’s Volt is supposed to get a 16 kWh Lithium battery. Those are very expensive, in the order of $1000/kWh, so the battery in the Volt will cost a lot, maybe $16K. To make the Volt a viable high volume product, a 5x to 10x price reduction on those batteries is needed. That’s not easy.
The plug-in Prius that is now being road tested, on the other hand, uses 2 existing Prius NiMH battery packs with a total capacity of 2.6 kWh. Those batteries are, of course, already in high volume production in the Prius. They probably cost in the order of $500/kWh, for a grand total of $1300 for the batteries in the plug-in Prius.
Now, let’s see, a battery that costs $16,000 versus a battery that costs $1,300. Which one is going to sell in volume first? Which of the two solutions is more practical for now?
Uh, hello? Bob? It’s hard to lead when you’re relying on technology that doesn’t exist yet– and that the competition has publicly stated they’ll also adopt, you know, as soon as someone invents it.
Game, set, match.
AGR, have A123’s Li-ion batteries EVER been used in a large-scale heat and humidity intensive application like an automobile, where the batteries will have to work consistently and reliably under a variety of conditions that include sweltering heat and icy cold?
A123’s batteries so far have only been proven in small scale applications. But when you use them on a large scale as in a vehicle, things get much different. Cooling large-scale li-ion batteries becomes a problem, as does making them work under temperature or environmental extremes.
If Toyota thought that LIon batteries were OK to be within 2 ft. of your car-seat bound, snoozing 18-month old, you’d see ’em. When the tech is ready (and safe), they’ll do it.
Yes, I saw a Rav4 electric vehicle just the other week, in Cadillac, Michigan. (First one I’d ever seen and yes, I was surprised).
With Florida license plates on it.
Think on that for a minute, folks.
I was at the Toyota dealer looking at a Prius in hopes that it was new – it was used. The EV pulled out of the Toyota dealer – utterly silent.
unohugh said:
“Before I’d buy a Prius, I’d thumb rides or walk!”
Wow, unohugh, I thought Luddites went extinct fashion 150 years ago.
In 15 years, are you going to want to only buy used cars instead of new? ‘coz by then, the Prius will probably look as technically advanced as the rest of autodom does vs the Prius now…
You’d better get used to electric, hybrid electric or hydraulic hybrid propulsion, as it is probably either that – or a horse – or used gas hogs (and will gas be $6 a gallon? $8?).
Sorry that was meant to say extinct or out of fashion 150 years ago – typo.
AGR, have A123’s Li-ion batteries EVER been used in a large-scale heat and humidity intensive application like an automobile, where the batteries will have to work consistently and reliably under a variety of conditions that include sweltering heat and icy cold?
A123’s batteries so far have only been proven in small scale applications. But when you use them on a large scale as in a vehicle, things get much different. Cooling large-scale li-ion batteries becomes a problem, as does making them work under temperature or environmental extremes.
And therin lies the problem. If you spend time reading the gadget/computer weblogs you will notice that exploding Li-ion laptop batteries from a variety of different manufacturers have been a hot topic of late (no pun intended). Dells, Apples, Sony’s and others all spontaneously combusting due to the ‘runaway’ heating problem which is unique to this type of rechargeable battery. In some cases personal injury was barely avoided as the laptop in question was totally destroyed. It has been reported to have occurred in cell phones and portable DAP’s also (ipod). When you package a high current Li-ion battery in a tight space which is necessary in a portable device a fault such as a short circuit can trigger this runaway. In an EV one can expect to see the Li-ion power packs to be as compact as possible while capable of massive current delivery. I am sure this problem can/will be addressed however car manufacturers that approach the use of Li-ion batteries with caution are wise IMHO.
It would seem that the general concensus is to maintain the status quo, and find all the reasons to shoot down any novel solution to our transportation challenges.
Can we all get to the really important point? Will hot rodding an electrical car be as simple as installing higher current breakers? How about a flat black Prious with a chopped top? Anyone?
It would seem that the general concensus is to maintain the status quo, and find all the reasons to shoot down any novel solution to our transportation challenges.
It would also seem that some people are content with seeing unsafe, dangerous yet “novel” vehicles be sold on the market.
Toyota is given a lot of credit not just because they were the first company to put a hybrid on the market, but also because the Prius has proved to be very safe and very reliable.
But I digress. If some people are content and satisfied with seeing GM rush-to-market a “novel” vehicle that heavily relies on Li-ion batteries with the potential for it to be a huge disaster for GM, then so be it.
Glenn126 – I don’t get the impression unohugh won’t drive a Prius because he’s a Luddite. Usually Luddites aren’t tech averse because the car is “a POS” as he so (in)eloquently states it.
Maybe unohugh is “reaction compensating” like Senator Craig, and he secretly really wants to drive a Prius except that his SUV-driving buddies will all think he’s a pansy geek.