I like vanilla ice cream. I know: as a guy who chooses "media" from the drop-down menu of professions, I should be into something exotic like swordfish pecan or Quaaludes and cream. But vanilla has a Zen purity that appeals to my inner minimalist (which I can't find from time to time 'cause he's so damn small). In the same way you can discern an ice cream maker's skills by sampling his or her vanilla, you can tell an automaker's prowess by assessing the quality of their plain Jane models. That's one reason TTAC is proud to review cars at the lower trim levels. It also explains my satisfaction upon hearing that Justin's sending me his MINI Cooper [non S] review. And one of the unremarked but remarkable reasons for Toyota's success: the low end models don't make you yearn for the higher end stuff. Contrast this with Detroit, where "strippers" often seem carefully designed to make you spend more money on something significantly better. Which works fine IF you take the financial plunge. I mean, I can imagine there will be a lot of pistonheads sitting in a V6 Pontiac G8 spending every moment of the journey wanting the V8. If that's NOT true, then I'll take it as a sign of genuine progress.
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I’m at work so I can’t listen to the podcast right now, but I wanted to comment on the intro. I never thought of Toyota’s success being that the strippers are so nice, but it’s true. In fact, it’s annoyingly true. I just bought (this week) an ’07 stripper 4Runner, and I was annoyed at how much standard crap there was. However, I still bought it (Toyota didn’t lose a sale), and when anyone sees the 4Runner, they’ll think it’s a nice car. If I would have gotten a stripper Explorer or something I’m sure the difference between the low and high trim levels would be quite noticeable. Even my beater ’89 4Runner (which is also a stripper) is incredibly nice compared to other SUVs of that era.
Side note: I really annoyed the salesman when I was looking at the ’07, Every time he pointed out some neat “standard option” (e.g., the auto closing rear hatch) I just said “that’s one more thing to break”. What ever happened to simple cars?
What ever happened to simple cars?
Funny you should say that, as I’m writing an editorial on the unnecessary crap that they cram into cars these days that is guaranteed to break and be expensive (if not impossible) to repair. This isn’t just an issue for today’s cars in 10 years, but the frame off restoration like you might see of a Bel Air these days, is actually going to vanish. Mechanical stuff can always be replicated. But how do you deal with an ECU that hasn’t been made for 10 years and a paucity of people who remember the programming? Or, as you mentioned, having to fabricate a brand new motor for your automatic tailgate?
I commuted to work one summer on a bike (when it wasn’t raining), and I’m not sure how much more efficient it is over driving. I swear I was spending 6 or 7 extra dollars a day to eat over driving days, where I had to burn through a little less than 2 US gallons of gas.
I don’t see the efficiency. Think of how much E85 could have been produced from all the tacos and buritos I inhaled during that summer.
I did look good though. ;)
where “strippers” often seem carefully designed to make you spend more money on something significantly better
Having grown up around Toronto, I can assure that this is true of both the French Canadian and Eastern European varities.
Where “strippers” often seem carefully designed to make you spend more money on something significantly better.
As I plan an night out with the guys, I find never a truer statement has been spoken.
The Japanese manufacturers realized early they’d sell more cars if “the low end models don’t make you yearn for the higher end stuff.” In the late 60’s and early 70’s people looked at Toyota Corollas and Datsun 510s and were delighted to find those low-priced cars weren’t stripped down. The makers seemed to be striving to give the buyer an appealing car despite a low price. Detroit, in contrast, was practicing bait-and-switch: lure shoppers with a low advertised price, then upsell them when they saw a low price meant a truly spartan ride.
The Japanese took a disadvantage (logistics was an obstacle to offering multiple options) and turned it into an advantage. And as a factory rep said at the time, “You’d be surprised at how inexpensive it is to just put that stuff on all the cars.” (BTW, hat rule applies to lots of things: I once read that the most profitable item at McDonald’s is the slice of cheese-like stuff that turns a hamburger into a cheeseburger.)
@50merc:
Absolutely right. The “one feature set fits all” approach is also a big part of Acura’s business model. For a long time, options on Acuras were manual or auto, navigation or not. Leather, sunroof, cd player, all that stuff, was standard.
the basic models age better than the top line models with all of the doo-dads. Remember vinyl roofs and opera lamps on the top line models? How much nicer the basic low end models look now with just a plain painted top. Remember in the world of “strippers” more is often less.
The Japanese certainly did do it right, domestic strippers had blank plastic panels where the optional equipment could go, Asian cars had useful little pockets and the first cupholders. Steering columns were often adjustable, heated rear glass was common, and how long before Detroit, did asian cars feature standard disc brakes?
I mean, I can imagine there will be a lot of pistonheads sitting in a V6 Pontiac G8 spending every moment of the journey wanting the V8. If that’s NOT true, then I’ll take it as a sign of genuine progress.
If more Japanese sedans were RWD, you can bet any pistonhead will wish for a V8 in it. Hell, if he/she has no choice but a Chevy Impala, they should (by default) demand the SS model with its insanely powerful V8. Well, maybe that’s a bit over the top…
What pistonhead doesn’t want the most powerful engine (not necessarily a V8) available in their next car? Doesn’t that go with the territory?
Re Mr Berkowitz..
But how do you deal with an ECU that hasn’t been made for 10 years and a paucity of people who remember the programming? Or, as you mentioned, having to fabricate a brand new motor for your automatic tailgate?
Yup. Well said. I can imaging the costs will be prohibitive. The banking/mortgage sector faced cost horrors when dealing with legacy COBOL code. But they had to pay…
I wonder if Toyota has a handle on ’01 Prius models’ spare parts/software???
RE your podcast point about upstate NY Tundra sales: They are low… I don’t see ’em.
Since Toyota is a topic today, how about a future Prius review? If you must, add wider performance tires… Be sure to take a pic…
I don’t listen to podcasts either… but I really like that you provide an intro or an abstract.
And I agree. My first car was a ’91 Tercel and lame as it was, it felt like a much better crafted piece of machinery than its direct rivals (except the Civic CX). One minor example… there were no exposed screwheads on the door panels, not even hiding behind round plastic caps. Its engine did suck though (not just low on power, but also underdesigned so they’re known for burning oil). I later had a Sentra E (total base model) with a great engine, but it was attached to lousy motor mounts and the rest of the drivetrain sucked too.
That Tercel convinced me that Toyota was good at building cars. With its manual steering and half-decent manual 4 speed transmission, it introduced me to driving pleasure, too. So I gave Toyotas first consideration later on in life. Didn’t end up with one, but now that I’m an “enthusiast” I’m pretty picky, not their fault.
In the same way, people whose first taste of a brand is a rental car or a “car for students or young people” end up with the same import/domestic preceptions as people who bought cars in the ’80s. Because in those segments, the product gap really is that wide. (GM, especially, makes its base model mainstream sedans really, really crappy compared to the high-trim versions.)
I’m not a ttac writer, but I do live in rural central Florida, and the new Tundra seems to have gained ground in my area. In fact, the Tundra seems to be the most popular import where I live. The ones I see are usually regular cab 4.7L (a few 5.7L Crew Max’s have been popping up lately). I think a work-trim version will be popular around here.
The nearest Toyota dealer to me has by far more Tundras on the lot than any other vehicle.
Still the Tundra has a long way to go, as the ratio of domestic to import trucks is near 20:1.
This isn’t just an issue for today’s cars in 10 years, but the frame off restoration like you might see of a Bel Air these days, is actually going to vanish.
Not a chance, Justin. I doubt you’ll see many 7-ers getting the rotisserie-restoration treatment, but damn near any late-model Detroit car will have the aftermarket support, parts interchangibility, etc to go the distance for decades. Even the computer programming for early EFI engines is ready for anyone thanks to the aftermarket. Ford’s EEC-IV might as well be DOS: anyone can tap into it and make a wolf out of a sheep.
If you want to restore a ’96 Impala SS or an SVT Mustang Cobra in 20 years, you’ll be covered.
Granted I learned this by scrounging the junkyards and reading websites/magazines/Dorman Catalogs (yes, really), but its no lie…there’s always room for restorations.
Mechanical stuff can always be replicated. But how do you deal with an ECU that hasn’t been made for 10 years and a paucity of people who remember the programming?
Actually that’s not that bad. I’m a programmer, so you tell me the inputs, and that outputs you want, and you’ll get the software to do it. I can do the hardware too if need be. So while I may marvel at someone who can fab a new part to replace something that broke, I can replace electronics that broke (as long as you know what it does). It just opens up a whole new market in restorations.
The only thing we really need is to make manufacturers be open with what their software does. That’s the bad part. Any mechanically inclined person (not me) can look at a motor and figure out what each part does and fab a new one if it breaks. But unless I know what the electronics are doing, there ain’t nothing I can do about it. There have been a number of bills floating through congress to get the manufactures to open up their software (just the inputs and outputs, not the implementation), but it keeps getting struck down (due to guess who’s lobby).
I am seeing more and more new Tundra’s on North Texas highways every day. Based purely on unscientific observation, I would have to say that the big rig Toyota is generally well accepted by the public and appears to be selling well.
Sincerely,
Listener #2
Earlier this year there was a story in the auto section of the L.A. Times about an old guy who had a Lincoln Mark VIII. The EEC went out and he couldn’t get a new one from Ford (they no longer make the replacement part) and he wasn’t couldn’t find one in a(n) junkyard automotive recycling center.
He ended up buying a new Lexus ES and was hoping that he could find a charity willing to haul away his Mark and give him a tax credit.
O.K. That didn’t quite turn out right. The last paragraph should read:
He ended up buying a new Lexus ES and was hoping that he could find a charity willing to haul away his Mark and give him a tax credit.
I remember reading Motor Trend as a kid in the 60s where Robert Gottlieb, the classic car columnist, had a story speculating how difficult (if not impossible) it would be to restore a then-new 1966 model in the distant future. He was talking mainly about the alleged complexity of automatic transmissions compared to simple manual gearboxes of say, ’32 Fords.
Well, look what happened — muscle cars from that era are very much alive and who’d a thunk they’d ever be so costly, let alone running on their own power?
I’m your other listener, and I’m in Nashville, TN, so I don’t mind your Dutch jokes one bit. Besides, some of my best friends are Dutch!
I finally heard the podcast: damn cubicles! The Tundra is being promoted hard and discounted heavily in Texas. I see plenty of them, which comes as no surprise given the heavy promotion.
Keep in mind Houston has the Toyota Center (Basketball) and the adjacent Tundra Parking Garage.
Johnster: as a Mark VIII owner, I see more poor diagnosis and repairs on these limited-production coupes than any other American car. Engine computers rarely fail (its usually sensors) and if you want a computer, you use an Internet-based electronic junkyard and have it shipped to your doorstep. And there are guys who makes a living stripping rare cars like the Mark on eBay.
Lazy mechanics are great at throwing parts to fix a problem, and not so great at finding parts when it requires more than access to the yellow pages. This is true for both dealers and private shops. And the consumer loses. (so do Mark VIIIs)
Sajeev Mehta: I finally heard the podcast: damn cubicles! Sajeev, just take in a set of headphones and tell everyone you're taking a 10 minute smoke break but since you don't smoke you're taking it at your desk with headphones instead of somewhere outside with cigarettes. Or if that won't work… If your desk telephone has a headset, find a computer headset that looks as much like it as possible. Then while you're listening to the podcast, minimize your browser, open a line on the phone so the right lights are lit, hide the phone headset, and make noises every now and then like you're agreeing with whoever is on the other end of the connection. If someone tries to interrupt, just shush them and point to the phone. Cubicle newbies! Sheesh!
I don’t see too many Tundras when out and about, but I do see a good amount of the SUVs. Still, I see more Detroit trucks than Toyota trucks around here in my corner of North Texas.
Frank, you are awesome. If that works, maybe I can take longer “smoke breaks” to podcast with RF too!
Hmm…