I reckon Toyota's recent slip-ups– perceived or actual– will do little to dent the world's largest automaker's rep amongst American consumers. Just as it took Detroit decades to drag their reputation into the mire, Toyota would have to totally and repeatedly screw the pooch from now until at least 2017 to reverse their mindspace momentum. Meanwhile, over at the new look Detroit News, columnist Daniel Howes is already dancing on the ToMoCo's grave, and predicting Detroit's return to glory. "As Toyota falls, Detroit Big 3 rise" starts by listing the Japanese automaker's troubles: Consumer Reports reliability slippage, the defection of two top Toyota execs to Detroit and the sheen removal from the company's green credentials. Bottom line? "Toyota's stumbles show it is no more invincible than Detroit is congenitally incompetent." While you could argue that the key difference is that Toyota knows it isn't invincible while Detroit remains unwilling to acknowledge their incompetence (e.g. the "new" Ford Focus), I couldn't possibly comment. Anyway, Danny's faith in Detroit's renaissance comes down to one factor: brave new leaders. "There are more of them inside Detroit's automakers and atop the UAW than anytime in a long time." How great is that?
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1. CR’s reliability slippage: Wow, we’re talking 3 models: Camry V6 (known tranny issues), Tundra V8 4WD, and Lexus GS awd. Why is the Tundra V8 with 2WD rate as the best large pickup, while the nearly identical 4WD is rated among the worst? Michael Karesh must be on to something with his criticism of CR’s methodology.
2. Defection of two top officials: Toyota’s bench is wide and deep. Press presumably was close to retirement anyway.
3. Loss of green credentials: just because Tom Friedman of the NYT says so doesn’t make it so. Toyota still has the 2nd highest fleet average fuel economy of any large company (behind only Honda).
There is a similar piece on Autoextremist.com. All about how the “Big T” is stumbling and how the big 2.8 are poised like a tiger and ready to reclaim the market with awesome products “any time now”…
Trouble is, the big 2.8 have been promising “any time now” for the last 20 years, then delivering 8 year old Foci in new sheetmetal.
Toyota has nothing to worry about as long as Detroit continues to stumble. Its biggest concerns are Honda and Nissan.
Kind of ironic regarding DeLorenzo’s post that he just published a book entitled “The United States of Toyota,” about the juggernaut’s domination of course.
So which way is it, Pete?
My patriotic intellect is very happy about Ford’s improvement, but it would take a number of years before my gut would let me think about buying a Ford. In ’93, I bought a Saturn, based in no small part on CR’s expectation of low frequency of repair. What a mistake that was. New engine at 65K, because of oil use problem.
Toyota is more worried about Hyundai than they are about any of the 2.8. The last dedades have been a race as to who can take most market share away from the domestics. I’m very happy that GM and Ford are showing product improvments and hope that this trend will continue but they shouldn’t be popping the champagne prematurely just because Toyota has a couple of mechanical problems.
Even if Toyota’s momentum does declines, there are plenty of other companies ready to eat the 2.8s lunch if they don’t perform.
Toyota’s quality stumbles go well beyond CR reporting. Most every major model that Toyota has recently launched has had some engineering issue that caused either a recall or TSB. Throw the quality issues on top of a sterile and passionless product line and you have a much larger issue.
I do agree with Blunozer that this issue will bring more switching business to Honda vs. the domestics in the short term(not sure about Nissan though).
My hope is that it will add further incentive to Ford for continued quality improvement so longer term (3-5 years)they will have built a sutainable quality rep. in the marketplace.
RF: BTW…I agree with Sanjeev…can we drive / experience the new Focus before you completely pan it. Once driven—-all handcuffs should be off in your assessment.
Mr. Howes might want to look at ALL of the data.
The Ford scores are definately going in the right direction, but look at the other end of the spectrum, the two lowest scores belong to… not VW…not Land Rover… but yes, the General.
I have hopes for Ford, if they survive but Rick and Bob focus on their high scores only and pretend that the corporate schizophrenia that BARFs out industry low scores at the other end doesn’t exist.
“Pounce like a tiger” Mr. Delorenzo? Honda may but GM will likely injure itself with it’s own claws.
Keep in mind his pappy worked in marketing at GM and he consultes for the 2.6378 in Detroit. If you read him for two months you know what he will say on any subject, down to the metaphores, without bothering to read his screed.
Cheerio,
Bunter
Hmmm…Just a thought. I’m wondering if the slippage in Toyota quality (in the US), loss of green creditial and the defection of two top American officials is related. Maybe the defectors realized they would not be getting their annual bonuses this year and saw the writing on the wall?
I could be wrong….
Toyota is stumbling a bit, no doubt about it, but when you are ahead by a lap and a half, it’ll take much more than that for everybody else to catch up.
“Toyota has nothing to worry about as long as Detroit continues to stumble. Its biggest concerns are Honda and Nissan. ”
I think Hyundai representsa threat to all of them, a transplant automaker with an expanding product line and deep pockets. Hyundai makes Ships and Chips, something Toyota can’t match.
UAW spending VEBA money on carnie barkers already?
What are they going to do when members get the flu?
Even if Toyota turns to sh*t, people will go to Honda or whatever, they are not going to go back to Dearbornistan.
I think Hyundai representsa threat to all of them, a transplant automaker with an expanding product line and deep pockets. Hyundai makes Ships and Chips, something Toyota can’t match.
Hyundai semiconductors and Hyundai heavy industries are completely different companies.
Mitsubishi is diverse also, but I don’t see any of you saying they are invincible. From their website:
Asahi Glass Co., Ltd.
Mitsubishi Gas Chemical Company, Inc.
Mitsubishi Shindoh Co., Ltd.
The Bank of Tokyo-Mitsubishi UFJ, Ltd.
Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Ltd.
Mitsubishi Steel Mfg. Co., Ltd.
Kirin Holdings Company
Limited Mitsubishi Kakoki Kaisha, Ltd. Mitsubishi UFJ Securities Co., Ltd.
Meiji Yasuda Life Insurance Co.
Mitsubishi Logistics Corp.
Mitsubishi UFJ Trust and Banking Corp.
Mitsubishi Aluminum Co., Ltd.
Mitsubishi Materials Corp. Nikon Corp.
Mitsubishi Cable Industries, Ltd.
Mitsubishi Motors Corp.
Nippon Oil Corp.
Mitsubishi Chemical Corp.
Mitsubishi Paper Mills Limited
Nippon Yusen Kabushiki Kaisha
Mitsubishi Corporation Mitsubishi Plastics, Inc. P.S. Mitsubishi Construction Co., Ltd.
Mitsubishi Electric Corp. Mitsubishi Rayon Co., Ltd.
Tokio Marine & Nichido Fire Insurance Co., Ltd.
Mitsubishi Estate Co., Ltd.
Mitsubishi Research Institute, Inc.
Mitsubishi Fuso Truck & Bus Corp.
Good lord, from the way people are reacting you’d think Toyota fell behind GM, Ford and Chrysler. Um, no, they fell behind Honda, Subaru and Scion (their own brand, last time I checked). To shamelessly steal someone else’s joke, “let’s not start sucking each other’s popsicles yet”, Detroit.
I feel sorry for Honda. They’ve been light years ahead of Toyota in quality and reliability, but it’s the Camry that’s seen as the gold standard, not the Accord. The fleet average for fuel economy is higher than Toyota and the Insight sipped less fuel than the Prius, but Toyota gets the green tree award. They’re like the middle child. They do all of the right things and still manage to be ignored.
Not a big surprise that Toyota’s quality is slipping, based on my experience with a Camry I rented earlier this year.
Interior quality was horrendous with flashing around the glove box and poor fitting door panels. The seats felt too hard, uncomfortable and cheap. The fuel filler door had poor fit as well (rental abuse? I don’t know). It was not at all what I expected based on the previous Camrys I had driven.
The car got good mileage, that’s about all I can say for it.
brownie-beautiful point
But any time Toyota sneezes the Detroit psychophants diagnos cancer or AIDS rather than a cold.
And they NEVER look at Detroits low scores or have a SPECIAL REASON why that data is flawed.
Of course any data that is negative about Toyota, even from a source they have never accepted data from on … let’s say GM…is strangely credible.
Odd, isn’t it.
Are these problems something to keep an eye on, sure, no one gets a free ride. But the D2.6375 are still waaaaaaay short of the best.
Just a note, I’m not a Toyota fan. I like very few of their products but the way Detroit Trolls attack them at every turn looks rather…insecure.
Cheerio,
Bunter
Good lord… this Big 3 cheerleading makes me want to gag. This is the most fanboyism in journalism I think I’ve ever seen.
“I feel sorry for Honda. They’ve been light years ahead of Toyota in quality and reliability, but it’s the Camry that’s seen as the gold standard, not the Accord.”
Just ignore all those massive automatic transmission failures from the 98-02 model year. Yeah, they started fixing them for free, but the replacements fail too, and they only replace them until 100k or so. Makes that generation pretty much worthless as a used buy; thankfully we got a 99 Camry and didn’t have to deal with any crazy problems.
“The fleet average for fuel economy is higher than Toyota and the Insight sipped less fuel than the Prius, but Toyota gets the green tree award.”
It was a 2 seater with no practicality…
I like Honda. A lot. More than Toyota. But Honda isn’t the crown savior of the automotive world, and it isn’t time to lock Toyota in the stocks and start throwing rocks at it, as much as some people would love to.
It’s really amazing how many people in the enthusiast community get sensual gratification from busting on Toyota nowadays. I think it’s because they make “boring” cars. If Toyota had a Mazda-like lineup, none of this would hardly matter.
Why the worry that Toyota makes “passionless cars”? Are you laboring under the delusion that the 97 percent of the automotive market that is comprised of nonenthusiasts wants passionate cars?
Who ever successfully mass-marketed a refrigerator because it was passionate?
Get over it, gearheads, we’re doomed.
I just want to add that I’m not “apologizing” for Toyota. They need to fix these issues. But let’s look at reality. This is not the end of Toyota as we know it (although I’m sure Detroit feels fine). They even have the perfect excuse: “As the Big 3 have lost market share, our rapid expansion has resulted in a few quality issues.”
The fact that Detroit is busting a nut over this is clear proof that they don’t know who their real enemy is.
Toyota loses it’s “green sheen” when somebody builds something that whips the Prius on fuel economy for the size, reliability and gee-whizzardry.
Per TrueDelta, and others, it’s a very reliable car, which is astonishing since it’s much more complicated than a regular car. And 40+mpg in the city? I’ll take that.
Reminds me of the old joke about the two guys in the jungle running away from the tiger. One of them stops running and starts putting on his running shoes.
The other guy laughs at him and says “you can’t outrun that tiger, even with running shoes!”
And the first guy replies “I don’t have to outrun the tiger. I just have to outrun you.”
IOW, all Toyota has to do to maintain their lead is to be better than the big 2.9. Talk about setting a low bar…
All the criticism of Toyota lately is getting more than ridiculous and is past the point of desperation. I can’t even think of a proper way to describe it.
Peter DeLorenzo, Daniel Howes and others are all simply jumping on the “hate Toyota” bandwagon for no justifiable reason. They are all jumping to wild conclusions such as we’re near Toyota’s downfall and that the American automakers will reign supreme once again.
Most of these Toyota critics are just as delusional as the management running GM, Ford, and Chrysler.