TTAC reader David Robinson worked for Ford’s Talbotville plant in 1972, when he was 19. After five years on the assembly line, he was promoted to a supervisory position. Five years later, when Robinson was laid-off, he returned to school to earn his Manufacturing Technicians papers. Robinson then worked as a Service Advisor in a Ford dealership. (“Ever try to sell an oil change to someone who is pissed off because they just had their car towed in for the 4th time with a blown ignition module?”) His last job: a Production Part Approval Process (PPAP) technician for Siemens VDO Automotive in London, Ontario. In that capacity, Robinson worked with all of The Big 2.8, BMW, Volkswagen and most of the tier one and two suppliers (e.g. Bosch and Denso). He was also the Quality Systems coordinator. His position was “downsized” three years ago. Last week, Robinson listened to our interview with Ford’s Manager of Global Quality Data Systems. He contacted us via email to say “what is happening right now with the big 3 is just fulfilled prophecy.” I called him to discuss his experiences and his insight into the cultural roadblocks blocking Ford’s recovery.
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I’ve been saying this for years. Ford is run by bean counters and will only spend enough to do the job and no more. They talk the talk but cannot walk the walk. You can’t just throw out this poisoned MGMT and Union paradigm in a decade by doing hardly nothing. It will take a major shakeup and new thinking that only an epiphany via Bankruptcy could possibly bring.
It seems that their customers are also less picky. The 3 people I know who have new Fords and have lots of problems don’t report them or hardly bring them into the dealer for warranty service. They think it’s justified that they got below invoice pricing so that is acceptable. If I have even the slightest problem with my cars I bring them in. My GM dealer hates me for complaining about even the slightest defect. When I’d bring the wife’s Honda in for any warranty work they apologize and get me set up right and quickly. They’ve even fixed things after the warranty expired for free (they treat me as they value me). The GM dealer gives me very a hard time. The service guys seem to like to lay it on that I need to support GM through this.
I really can’t dispute anything in Daves interview just substitute GM for Ford,it’s the same thing.I remember the 56 hr weeks too well.On the otherhand bringing home 250$ a week in 1972 wasn’t hard to take either.
Dave moved on and improved himself as many did at that time.A lot of us made the decision to hack it out and keep the bucks flowing and get the pension at the end of it all.
Then I read and hear comments to the effect of “you guys don’t deserve it”Uh Huh [no comment]
Dave hits it on the head with the quality comments.The guy on the line has very little input into the final product.
However technolgy has vastly improved the vehicle of today, compared to say 1982.
Where Dave really nails it is the nickel and dimeing from the bean counters.I could write a book on examples where you save a 1$ and it cost GM a thousand.
Anyway great piece RF.
Fact: Ford quality sucked when Dave was close to the company in the 70’s and 80’s. I am not sure what he has to say has much relevance to 2007 other than to confirm what we already know about Ford’s culture issues.
Fact: Every major quality survey has Ford quality on a steep curve upward. This cannot be disputed despite Jaje’s anecdotal evidence from a few friends. Also—I am not an idiot who overlooks problems. If there is an issue—I get it fixed. I have a 2005 Mustang with over 30k miles that has been in the shop only for oil changes and an adjustment to an emergency brake cable. I bought a 2007 Lincoln MKX that has been flawless (albeit only through 10K miles). The 2 BMW’s I owned prior to the Fords were terrible….so I know what bad quality and reliability is all about–I knew my BMW service advisor by name.
Ford has alot of issues to overcome including sutained improved improved quality. They are making headway though focused effort and the facts and data are showing it. Good piece RF—but to make decisions TODAY—I look at facts and data and pay little attention to heresay from an obviously disgruntled individual.
I had lunch with the owner of a company that manufactures internal components for Chrysler automatic transmissions. He was more than happy to express his frustration concerning the accounting department at Chrysler constantly sucking the quality out of parts while demanding exacting tolerances.
He referenced one transmission component that Chrysler engineers originally recommended a steel casting that would be machined. Accounting changed it to a steel stamping, then finally to moulded plastic.
The reject rate is high, and the durability questionable, but Chrysler got what they wanted. The consumer ? Well, we all know what we’re getting.
I have been of the opinion, based in my share of personal experience, that of the domestics, Ford has been the best in quality for some time now. My latest (2000 Contour SE) has almost 80k on it and never seen the inside of a shop. Hasn’t been perfect and, I think to a degree, I live with minor flaws that I probably wouldn’t even have with a Toyota or a Honda but I think I also get a little more in terms of fun-to-drive.
The surveys say they are making significant strides in quality. This is good. But I also still believe that without Toyota and Honda in our market this wouldn’t be happening.
It is funny how the word "disgruntled employee" comes up, as if those magic words mean the things never really happened. I really wanted to do a good job and go home with some sense of accomplishment after a days work. Yes you get "disgruntled" or frustrated with a system that is more interested in building "CAReers" than cars. I contacted RF because I was amused at how much the interview by the Ford Quality fellow the other day sounded just like the script from a Ford of Canada fellow that was aired on Marketplace TV program in Canada in 1985. Also as I follow this site for the last several years, I keep being reminded of a prophecy my Superintendant made once, as we were shown a Honda, a VW Rabbit and a Toyota, we were told to impress on our employees that if we did not start to put together are cars as well as these imports in 20 years there would be no jobs for any of us. So you call it disgruntled, and I see it as just interesting watching history unfold.
Glad I came back and listened to this, it’s one of the most interesting items TTAC has had. Thanks Robert and David.
umpter, no offense but you have not owned either of those Fords long enough, or put enough miles on them, to know where the bean counters have been.
Allow me to present exhibit A in my arguement: The Ford Windstar minivan.
First, Ford takes a Taurus platform. They stretch it out a bit on all sides, add about 1000 lbs to reinforce the body for safety and rigitidy and such, and then install the same drivetrains they put in the Taurus. Keep in mind that by this time the Taurus was already making a sour reputation for itself (3.8L V6’s blowing head gaskets, failed transmissions, etc). So, the 95 Windstar hits the market and steals Chrysler’s thunder in the minivan market for a few years. It’s got five stars of safety rating, it’s comfortable and smooth (just like the Taurus) and everyone loves them. Then 50-90k miles goes by and the beancounting comes home to roost. Just like in the Taurus, the 3.8’s are tossing headgaskets and the AX4S trannies are self-destructing. Only it’s happening sooner and more often because of the extra weight of the van itself and the fact that a lot of people who buy minivans use them like light trucks. Ford’s response is typical. Ignore the problem for as long as possible until just before the lawsuits start to fly, and then band-aid it enough to stave off the lawsuits. By the time Ford issued an extended warranty on the head gasket problem (just the head gaskets, mind you) most of the people who had the problem had already fixed the problem out of their own pocket. And the warranty was only for seven years, so any vans that were not driven hard enough to blow their head gaskets will be tossing theirs after the warranty has expired.
Finally, late in the 98 production year, Ford changes the engine and fixes the head gasket issue. However the transmission problem is still there. The tranny has been updated here and there but is still marginally suited for the task. No bother though. The problem is infrequent enough that Ford can ignore it for the most part and they do mostly. TSB’s and updates dribble in until a redesigned transmission in put into the 2002 model year and then in 2004 when the Freestar comes out with a different drivetrain altogether. No instead of being built like a tall FWD car it’s built more like a low-end F150 with the drive wheels on the wrong end. It’s actually built well enough to take the abuse many people foist on a minivan.
It’s too little and way too late though. By 98 Chrysler has regained their position in the minivan segment by releasing a redesigned van in 96 with the passenger slider option. Shortly afterwards Toyota and Honda get into the fray and pick up more Windstar refugees. In the meantime other fruit of the beancounters matures. Electrical contacts on the sliding doors wear out causing the sound from the rear speakers to cut out most annoyingly. The seals in the isolator bolts that hold the air plenum to the intake manifold fail after prolonged exposure to oil and cause an air leak, prompting a check engine light. The power steering pumps begin making a very disconcerting whine at around 90K miles.
I’m sure the same holds true for many other vehicles Ford makes. I just decided to present one of the more infamous to make my point.
And like Mikey has stated, GM is no better. Most veteran GM owners know that there’s an undocumented maintenance interval on GM cars. The one where at around 80-110k miles its time to change out the radiator, water pump, alternator, starter, and AC compressor. And it takes about 2-4 years and several tow truck operators before you’re done performing this maintenance.
Self-fulfilled prohecy indeed. jaje’s point about the customer service at the Honda dealership further drives home the point. Once the Big 2.8 loose a customer to the transplants they rarely get them back since they discover how much they were being abused.
Speaking of the Winstar minivan, and CBC Marketplace, there was a segment on that show called ‘Underdogs’, where consumers at their wits’ end would show up at corporate HQs and try to get face time with company bigwigs.
There was one gentleman who had ongoing electrical problems with his Winstar, for over three-years, nearing the end of warranty coverage. Ford had already extended his warranty free of charge, but despite repeated trips to the repairman, the gremlins persisted. He lived a short drive from the Oakville assembly plant where the van originated, and tried to get Ford to exchange his lemon for a new one. Fat chance of that happening in a jurisdiction without lemon laws, Ford decided to repair his van one last time, and sent an engineer to supervise the work.
He had no more faith in their service, but Ford basically gave him the cold shoulder, saying that they’ve done all they could do. While I can’t blame Ford for evading precedent of replacing cars for every disgruntled customer knocking at their door, I thought that maybe they could meet him in the middle, and give him a new van off-lease that had an impeccable service history.
Perhaps there’s no such Winstar in existence, given radimus’ post.
oh, I’m not surprised Ford’s tendency to cut back on product durability until it barely passes standard.
There’s an old Henry Ford story in which he surveyed scrap yards to see how the Model T fared, and he found that the kingpin in the steering assembly to be the car’s most durable part.
Rather than complimenting his engineers on the kingpin’s superior design, he had them skimp on it to make it cheaper.
David, thanks for contacting Robert and doing the podcast. Your insights into (the old?) Ford were great to hear. It reminded me of the paper cup I found in the trunk of one of my Fords. When I removed the carpet to clean a spill, there it was: it even had the blue oval on it.
Not that I blame the guy for taking a coffee break, I just wish he didn’t use my car as a garbage can. No respect. Ditto the beancounter who was responsible for the AOD transmission recall a few months later. And the ignition switch recall 10 years later. And…enough already!
umterp85: tell us how your Fords fare at 90,000 miles. I expect they will fare much better, but that’s when we’ll see if we are right about Ford’s improving quality.
radimus : “umterp, no offense but you have not owned either of those Fords long enough, or put enough miles on them, to know where the bean counters have been”
No offense taken. That said, Does 107,000 on a ’97 Explorer make your cut ?
I had little issue with the Explorer other than replacing the front rotors at 60K. My mistake was letting snobbery get the best of me and buying a BMW X5 that saw the shop every 8 weeks. I should never have traded the Explorer in. BTW—my Ford dealer experience has been fantastic.
Given my Explorer experience and all of the FACTS AND DATA from recent quality surveys that show Ford has improved greatly, I am confident that my Mustang and Lincoln will provide good service.
Last, Toyota has bean counters as well—-they must be the reason that Toyota cannot engineer and launch a car without some kind of recall or mulitple TSB’s. Also—check the grade of plastics in the new Camry—talk about bean counting. This isn’t the 80’s or 90’s Camry—it it TODAY—and Toyota has proven they can beancount with the best—-it isn’t just a Ford or GM issue.
Last, Toyota has bean counters as well—-they must be the reason that Toyota cannot engineer and launch a car without some kind of recall or mulitple TSB’s. Also—check the grade of plastics in the new Camry—talk about bean counting.
Good point. 20 years from now we might hear from another David Robinson who worked for Toyota.
Getting a grip on this subject is difficult.
Are we talking about the “intrinsic” quality of a component, independent of its function or of the demands that will be made of it during its life?
Are we talking about the “perceived” quality of a component (or components) – such as Mr. Farago’s perception that the new Ford Focus is constructed largely of duct tape and Velcro?
Despite grumblings about “bean counters” sucking the quality out of components, it’s a fact (despite anecdotal evidence presented here to the contrary) that new vehicles are supremely reliable, and better than they have ever been. When we say that “quality” is being removed, I think most of us are talking about intrinsic (perceived)quality, or the quality of something being so overbuilt that it’s obvious just by looking at it, and not anything related to a component functioning reliably over its service life. This goes for both the consumer noticing a cheap glove compartment latch, or the industry insider regretting changes made to transmission components.
Does that mean that the accountants and cost people never go too far? The answer is no. However, their efforts ruin perception (back to that Velcro and duct tape – i.e. things not done right) far more often than they affect quality (in terms of “reliability” – i.e. things not gone wrong).
Great interview. David in your job with a supplier did you have any experience in working with Toyota or Honda? If so was there any difference in working with them?
Again, the Ford of 1993 that created the Windstar disaster is not the Ford of 2007. But even the Ford of 1993 had good vehicles. My ’90 Ford Ranger was sold with 255k and only the typical things that go in cars that old (water pump, belts, new clutch, spark plugs, etc). My ’97 Escort ditched at 190k when I crashed it, but it had no major problems. Our ’92 Aerostar made it 240k before we donated it. I now own a Civic and a Focus – guess which has been the more reliable one (it’s not the Civic)?
I can give you plenty of examples of what can be built by Ford (and GM, if you’d like) and how long these cars can last if they are maintained properly (ie – not by dealers). I can also give you examples of shoddy quality (my aunt’s Windstar that was dead by 80k miles) and what can happen if you don’t maintain (my friend’s poor Escort that didn’t get oil changes, timing belts replaced, air filters swapped, etc etc).
But the question is what is Ford today? The build quality is much higher. Period. There is no escaping that fact. The design quality is higher. Witness the lack of recalls on 2006 and 2007 model year vehicles (I think there have been 8 encompassing like 50,000 units out of 4+ milion sold).
So, yes, we can hear all about Ford’s messed up culture of the past (and present to some extent – that’s one of Mulally’s big challenges), and we can talk about all the terrible things they used to do. But clearly, their game is completely different now. If you don’t see it, then you just don’t want to. A concerted effort since about when Bill Ford’s reign began has seen Ford’s newer models jump towards the top of JD Power’s, CR’s and Strategic Vision’s quality lists. And eventually, changes like this at Ford and other companies will lower “reliability” as a factor in purchasing a vehicle and, ultimately, make all our vehicles that much better.
Reply to Robert SD. I really hope you are right about the Ford of today; it is a shame to hear you admit that a messed up culture is part of the equation still. I don't know how you change that. It would be a very rare management level employee who has done quite well for himself in the system moving up steadiliy through the ranks, to all of a sudden encourage people who have a different philosophy then himself. How many VP's wake up one day and suddenly start listening to the people who have been critical of his methods, and recognizing the A*** K*****'s for what they are. In the Ford system the people with dissension in their hearts keep it to themselves or are quickly moved along. I wonder where Mulally is going to find the people amongst his ranks to do things a new way, he is surrounded by those who learned and rewarded for keeping their opinions to themselves. When Nissan started their first plant in Tennessee they hired a Plant Manager from a Ford Plant to be their Plant Manager. The interviewer asks the Ford guy now sitting at a cafeteria table in standard uniform blues, how he went from being an autocrat in the Ford System, to a team builder in the Nissan System. He just answered that basically you did what you had to do to survive in the Ford System, in Nissans system he did what needs to be done to meet the needs of their system. To me that says given the right environment even a Ford Autocrat can embrace the new times.
RF,
Great interview from the trenches. Keep them coming!
DARO 31: Whose quality is better—Ford or Nissan ? The FACTS and DATA in 2007 suggest Ford (slightly) despite the autocracy. Given that, imagine how much better the quality could be if Mulally can somehow transform the culture.
Talking about durability, my 1997 Toyota Camry V6 has 140,000 miles and NEVER had a repair (except for new tires and some standard maintenance). It still has the old original brake pads. I just recently put in some new spark plugs, just because I felt negligent never having changed them.
Is this the kind of quality we can now expect from the new, new Ford?
EJ: Can you expect the same quality from today’s Toyota ?
I just recently put in some new spark plugs, just because I felt negligent never having changed them.
EJ: Betcha that 60,000 mile timing-belt service/reacharound got you new spark plugs too…and stuff like new gaskets, fresh coolant, maybe even a new water pump.
You got 140,000 miles on a set of brake pads? I’m not saying that’s impossible, but it’s a standard wear item replaced during regular maintenance.
The dirty little secret is that older Japanese cars need plenty of replacement parts, but standard maintenance intervals (i.e. replacing timing belts before they blow out) mask it all…and the owner is happy enough knowing that the car runs fine once it comes back from the shop.
umterp85: How would you know if today’s Toyota is still as good? It takes 10 years to find out. But, obviously, I’m not in a hurry to change brand (or buy a new car).
Sajeev: No, the first time I changed spark plugs was at 120,000 miles. I also got the timing belt changed at 120,000 miles for $279 (nowadays they have a timing chain, so you don’t even need to do that). I also got a coolant and A/T fluid change one time. The water pump is still original. I’m not aware of paying for any gaskets. I figure, if you take the maintenance schedule of Toyota and multiply by two, you should still be fine.
My question remains: can we expect the new, new Ford to go 140,000 miles without any repairs, beyond standard maintenance? That’s obviously what it would take to get me to switch brands.
Thanks for your reply.
Sajeev: No, the first time I changed spark plugs was at 120,000 miles. I also got the timing belt changed at 120,000 miles for $279
Did you own the car @ 60,000 miles? I don’t think the Camry can make it to 120k on the original timing belt. IIRC, its every 60-70k for Toyota belts. Ditto the plugs, even Ford platinums only last 100k.
And something like that for the brake pads too.
My question remains: can we expect the new, new Ford to go 140,000 miles without any repairs, beyond standard maintenance?
Depends if Ford keeps the component quality up to snuff and if they follow the (successful) OEM service requirements of Toyota and Honda.
I guess we’ll find out sometime circa 2010 if Ford can give what the market demands. And if the latest Camry has slipped up one too many times.
EJ: How would you know if today’s Toyota is still as good? It takes 10 years to find out.
It doesn’t take ten years to find out. We do know the amount of quality issues related to the Toyota brand have increased exponentially over the last few years. That is a fact. The 2007 Camry is no 1997 Camry.
Sajeev: I bought this car new, 10 years ago. Timing belt: I think it needs to be replaced at 90,000, but the funny thing is my owner’s manual doesn’t even mention it (as if you never need to replace it, which is obviously not true). Spark plugs need to be replaced at 60,000, but ought to last much longer, so I changed them at 120,000. Brake pads I change when they’re worn and, amazingly, they’re not worn yet. I change oil every 10,000 in stead of 7,500.
umterp85: As far as I know quality ratings of Toyota (in Consumer Reports, etc) have been pretty much stable over the last 10 years. The 2007 Camry suffers from the new model change-over, but by now they’re probably already back to their old quality level. Perhaps Ford is improving, but to know for sure I’d like to see a 10 year track record. For now they have a 2 year track record with the Fusion and that’s about it. GM still seems to be making a mess of quality; not surprising with all the turmoil.
EJ: Thanks for your response. Fact is Toyota’s quality has not been stable over the last 3-4 years. It is still good but not at the great levels that were in place when you bought your ’97 Camry. Engine sludge issues, transmission hesitation and multiple recalls / TSB’s against recent launches including the Avalon, Camry, and new Tundra are things that did not happen at Toyota in 1997. Time will tell whether their historic quality levels can be re-established while increasing volume requirements.
As for Ford—their quality increases go beyond the Fusion to many of the vehicles in their line ( as documented by CR and JD Power). Time will tell if they are able to sustain their recent success.
“Timing belt: I think it needs to be replaced at 90,000, but the funny thing is my owner’s manual doesn’t even mention it (as if you never need to replace it, which is obviously not true).”
Yeah, I’m looking at a maintenance guide for ’99 Toyotas and it says 90k for the timing belt, except for the Corolla which uses a chain. I don’t know about ’97s, but in ’99 the maintenance stuff is in a separate booklet from the owner’s manual. They also suggest changing the coolant and non-plat spark plugs every 30k, which I don’t do.
90k makes sense, I guess Toyota recommends longer intervals because the motor isn’t an interference design. But it lasted all the way to 120k? Well, I’ve seen stranger things, I guess.
Sajeev: manuf’s recommended timing belt intervals are very conservative, for obvious reasons. But I’ve heard/read of folks going over 200k on timing belts (not chain) and still running. They don’t automatically self destruct at 90k.
I have always bought American cars, mostly Fords. However, I have absolutely had it. In October 2003 I bought a brand new loaded Explorer. Feb 07 the AC goes. The car is just over 3 years old and today Nov 07 only has 34K miles. $1,300 to repair. I was just over the warranty so I had to pay. Do you know what really disappoints me? I bring the car to the dealer to get fixed. Yes it stinks that I have to shell out $1,300 but the least the dealer could do is give me the illusion that they actually care and are sorry the car is already having issues. Now I’m having an intermittent issue with the car overheating. I take it to the dealer and they can’t find anything wrong (most likey the thermostat is getting stuck).
I also bought a 2003 Taurus around the same time. My only complaint is the very poor fit and finish. The upholstery on the rear doors is coming off and the glue has flaked off.
Well, at the end of the day I’m just one customer. However, I can tell you this, my hard earned dollars are going elsewhere when I replace these vehicles.