Many of our commentators have pointed-out that automakers hoping to compete against the lean, mean, hybrid-building machine known as Toyota are chasing a moving target. While GM is busy trying to stuff Li-Ion-shaped eggs into a Volt-sized basket, Toyota has just announced they've downsized their nickel metal hydride battery-based gas – electric propulsion system by 50 percent. What's more (or less), they've also reduced their manufacturing cost by 50 percent. Speaking to Reuters at the Tokyo Motor Show, Executive Vice President Kazuo Okamoto (the guy in charge of Toyota's research and development) said the advancement was only to be expected. "When we went from the first-generation Prius to the second-generation, we did the same thing." Okamoto also revealed that ToMoCo's looking to increase the visibility of their Synergy driven vehicles, "perhaps through a unique front grill." As for the diesel-powered alternative to his employer's hybrids, Okamoto admitted that oil burners were more fuel-efficient for long-distance cruising. But he promised that Toyota's future hybrids would meet or beat the challenge. The competition better hope Okamoto's blowing smoke, and act as if he isn't.
Find Reviews by Make:
Read all comments
I applaude their innovation, but why does it have to be so ugly? Ditto for the Civic hybrid. Do they make them ugly so they can keep up with demand?
“Okamoto admitted that oil burners were more fuel-efficient for long-distance cruising.”
That makes sense. A hybrids #1 technical advantage is the recapturing of energy normally lost to mechanical braking. For cruising over long distances the hybrid system is just dead weight, and the heavier a thing is, the more energy is required to move it about.
A diesel system produces more mechanical energy per gallon of fuel than does a similar gasoline based system. This is due both to the higher energy content of a gallon of diesel as compared to a gallon of gasoline (especially when said gasoline is diluted with ethanol), and to the higher conversion efficiency of the diesel cycle.
I’m really looking forward to the upcoming Honda Accord Diesel as well as the Pilot, Ridgeline and Odyssey Diesels. If done well these could be game changing vehicles in North America.
“but why does it have to be so ugly”
I think the Prius is a pretty cool looking vehicle, but to each their own.
The competition better hope Okamoto’s blowing smoke, and act as if he isn’t.
But it would be a huge mistake to assume he is, given ToMoCo’s track record with hybrids and other innovations. This halving of the size/cost of the propulsion unit with every new generation really shows their long term approach to technical development. By comparison GM’s habit of bringing not quite mature products to the market place and not bother to fix the flaws for years (ie. V6 intake manifold issue), it’s not hard to see why ToMoCo is thriving and GM is slowly dieing. While I think we all really hope that GM does a awesome job with this Chevy Volt, past experience would indicate that is may be another half-done, almost there product that is late to the ‘Green’ party. This is especially true because despite all the changes lately (UAW contract, VEBA etc.), there is no indication that the stifling management culture in GM is changing or likely to anytime soon.
Has Honda or Toyota ever been caught blowing smoke?
Let’s not confuse them with Maximum Bob Lutz.
jthorner – Granted, and I like the looks of the Chevy Volt, which I have taken flack for.
Even more significant that the 50% reduction in cost and weight of the hybrid system is the easy admission by Okamoto that diesels still outclass gasoline-hybrids in long-range cruising.
Toyota engineering seems unafraid to admit the merits of a good competing technology – what does that mean for the Volt, which has been slammed by the Japanese automakers?
I’m assuming they’re still talking about a parallel hybrid system. What’s the scoop on series hybrids? The ones (I think) that exclusively use electrical motors to drive the wheels, but use a small fuel burning engine (or even a small gas turbine in some concepts) to provide power for peak demand and recharging? From a weight standpoint, that approach might have some advantages.
(Added later): The Volt is a series hybrid, right?
Toyota engineering seems unafraid to admit the merits of a good competing technology – what does that mean for the Volt, which has been slammed by the Japanese automakers?
Probably doesn’t mean as much as you’d think. Toyota makes diesel engines and they don’t want to downplay the advantages of their other vehicles. The Volt, however, is a direct shot at Toyota’s HSD vehicles and is therefore seen as a more important target for derision.
The Atkinson cycle engine used by Ford and Toyota in their hybrids is mid-way between the Otto cycle (“gasoline engine”) and diesel cycle in overall efficiency, but lacks one thing – prodigious torque. Electric motors, conversely, make – prodigious torque (at zero RPM, like a steam engine). Hence, Toyota and Ford, combine hyper-efficient gasoline fuelled Atkinson cycle engines, with electric motors.
My 2005 Prius has obtained MPG in the mid 60’s on the highway at 65 mph, merely by being a legal (not tailgating) 2 seconds behind a semi truck, and without the truck running air-interference, it still obtains MPG in the high 40’s to mid 50’s.
That’s pretty efficient for a car classified as a mid-sized.
I can’t wait to see the next-gen Prius.
Finally, do not forget that diesel fuel costs some 20% more than gasoline in the USA, that diesel hybrids will add thousands to the price of the vehicle compared to an Atkinson hybrid, and if a diesel hybrid is introduced, the continual litany of all anti-hybriders will again be heard from sea to shining sea – “the pay-back time is too long!!!!”
From a weight standpoint, that approach might have some advantages.
Yes, it might. Series hybrids will still suffer from the long-distance “issues” that parallel hybrids face. Simply because, as was pointed out by another commenter, the major advantage of the hybrid is the ability to recapture energy during braking.
Toyota’s point is that technology is making the weight (and cost) issue(s) less important with each passing generation. I would think that Toyota’s Synergy system could work even better if the fuel-burning engine was a diesel.
I agree that diesel/electrics are ultimately the way to go. It’s hardly a ‘new’ idea, since diesel/electric submarines have been around for more than 100 years.
Sadly, I live in a California emissions state (Washington) where I doubt we’ll see non-truck diesels anytime soon.
I suppose the saying “Your Mileage May Vary” has never been more true. in 2002 I shied away from the 1st-gen Prius and the 1st-gen Civic Hybrid because, at the time, I had a long (40 miles each way) commute at 60 mph.
In that driving environment, I anticipated that a gasoline 5-speed Civic would get better overall mileage, and also cost $10k less.
I was almost right about the mileage part. The 5-speed Civic will still top 40 mpg on the highway, (it got 46 on one magic tankful last summer) and my in-law’s 2nd-gen Prius gets mid 40s-low 50s on the highway.
Of course my commute is now all-city (28 mpg with crappy ‘winter blend’ gas) so my clever calculations, while accurate, are irrelevant. At least my new commute is short.
willbodine: How can that be??? Hybrids are just a liberal conspiracy to allow self-important owners to look down their nose at other drivers while actually net damaging the environment. Getting smaller, lighter and cheaper might mean that hybrid drivetrains could actually be a sensible addition to every vehicle on the road. And that can’t be, because hybrids are just hype. Right?
half the size and half the cost
astounding
maybe they should tranfer those engineering studs to the pickup truck division now….
The way things are going, I think its just a matter of time until just about every car is a hybrid.
High power, high torque, and high mileage… Seems like a winner to me.
I think the Prius is a pretty cool looking vehicle, but to each their own.
I don’t think they look cool. They look cute, sort of like a toy car.
Bob Lutz is not a happy man today. Toyota cuts the cost of hybrid technoology by 50%, and GM is till trying to figure out how to make the Volt an economically viable proposition (“well rent you the batteries”), not to mention a technically viable one.
In the UK, VW are broadcasting their adverts for their Bluemotion Polo spouting all green credentials. Sounds like Toyota really are “moving forward”.
Also, this is also an ethnic minority* eye for Carlos Ghosn and his ramblings about how he won’t bother with hybrids as diesels were just fine!
* = Black!
Funny coincidence; AOL Autos just ran a story yesterday about how hybrid technology was going to make cars 50% more expensive, on average. Now Toyota says they can build the system for 50% less.
(Of course the story was utter bull… they only interviewed a Chrysler exec and a Detroit analyst, and fearmongering is about all Chrysler has left in the “green” market.)
I do worry about the implications for manual transmissions, what with hybrid tech (probably) going mainstream. I mean, I know they’re not imcompatible, but as consumers get used to engines they can never work on at home, CVTs, and cars’ drivetrains cycling on and off autonomously, I suspect the interest in mechanical involvement will sink even faster than it already has.
Pleeease, Honda: six-speed hybrid CR-Z? Soon?
glenn126:
Hmmm … you must live in some odd part of the USA. Or I do. Around here, Diesel varies from about $0.20 below to $0.20 above the price of premium. It seems when the price of a barrel of oil goes up, it affects gas more than diesel. It’s also likely seasonal, since it’s the same part of a barrel of oil that fuel oil comes from. But 20% of nearly $3/gallon is $0.60. I don’t think I’ve EVER seen it that much higher than even regular gas. Not to mention you can burn all sorts of things in your diesel car. :^)
MaxHedrm:
Right now here in Eugene, diesel is running 50-60 cents more than regular. I know Eugene is odd, but…
The mysterious saga of the next generation Prius is slowly unfolding. Is this the advance that can push Prius sales volume to 500K/year in the US? Maybe I can finally buy one now.
Interesting issue: how do you cut the NiMH battery in half?
I suspect Toyota has figured out how to do deep cycling of these batteries with double power density, while retaining durability. That, by itself, is great battery progress. No lithium needed (yet)!
Sure lithium is needed…
Just not for the batteries… But the GM execs!