You may remember Sweden's infamous Älgtest (a.k.a. moose or Elk test). A kamikaze professional driver guides a fully-laden vehicle (simulated passengers, genuine cargo) down a closed course at 35.5mph. He/she then swerves to avoid an object, then swerves back; simulating the manoeuvres needed to to miss both an errant moose and oncoming traffic. Back in '97, pictures of Mercedes' newly-launched A-Class flipping over during moose testing led the German automaker to retrofit every single car sold with a new Electronic Stability Program module. And now those crazy bastards at Teknikens Värld have put the Toyota Hilux through the same test — with similar results. (TTAC's American readers may remember the Hilux as the previous generation Toyota Tacoma pickup.) The video in the link brings back memories of the 1988 Consumer Reports exposé on the Suzuki "Somersault" Samurai. Anyway, hands-up anyone who thinks Toyota is going to retrofit ESP on old Hilux pickups? Yeah I thought so.
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I wonder if Toyota will classify this as a recall, or a “voluntary warranty enhancement?”
With the rampant overpopulation of white-tailed deer around here, I’d say a plethora of Taco rollovers is a very real possibility.
I am confused. I thought Toyota was selling all new vehicles in the US with ESP standard.
Just hit the damn deer. I did once, and the seat belts didn’t even lock up. (There was no time to swerve or even brake.)
For 2008, all Toyota C/SUVs, the Sienna, the Scion xB, and the Tundra have standard ESC. On all others, it’s an option (except n/a on Yaris).
And standard on all Lexus models.
Hitting a deer is one thing, 210delray, hitting a full sized moose or big elk is quite another.
There is a substantial size difference, and potentially life and death difference for the vehicle driver and occupants.
The husband of a friend just clobbered a “normal” sized deer in his Cavalier, a week after she hit a deer in her minivan. Both vehicles were totalled out, in his accident, the deer literally disitegrated from the neck back – into his car, being shredded by the windshield. The deer’s heart was in the back seat, the driver was lucky to only be “splatted” with deer guts and blood – but was so concussed that it took 1/2 hour of the ambulanceman talking to him before he’d stop wandering around the car, the woods, the road – in a daze – and would “come to” enough to realize he was even being spoken to.
Can you imagine hitting a full sized moose, instead of a little Michigan deer?!
Toyota need to address this responsibly. All worldwide auto makers should incorporate this “test” before green-lighting any vehicles.
I have to wonder if 1/2 the tall tippy uselessly massive US trucks and SUV’s with frames would pass the test, but that’s another story.
Striking a moose is a very real possibility in Canada. When I was in sales, a co-worker was killed after hitting a moose, and I think two police officers have died in a similar in fashion in the last year or two. And a Canadian Member of Parliament is a quadripelegic because of a moose collision. Pity you can’t post pictures here, I could show you a car post-moose collision.
GIS “car moose collision”:
http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&um=1&hl=en&safe=off&q=car++moose+collision&btnG=Search+Images
The first pic is of a Lumina which ended up with the moose’s body in the passenger compartment – they all survived according to the web site.
I have to wonder if 1/2 the tall tippy uselessly massive US trucks and SUV’s with frames would pass the test
They wouldn’t.
Go check out a wrecking yard sometime and wonder at all the SUV’s and Pickups with their fully-deployed vertical crumple zones.
–chuck
http://chuck.goolsbee.org
I thought there’s another “Moose test,” a crash test with a simulated moose. It goes up over the hood in the collision and then hits the car dead straight in the windshield. It’s used to evaluate the strength of A-pillars, which seems to also translate to rollover crush strength to some extent. I know Saab does these, probably Volvo too.
You do know that they post those 20mph sign on mountain roads for a reason, right! Hitting a moose is like having an accident with another automobile. If you can’t see in time to brake, YOU ARE DRIVING TOO FAST!
Now I know it is not as simple as that but common sense should allow someone driving any vehicle with a decent sized and weighted load to take EXTRA care!
It’s not Toyota’s fault that the Tacoma (Hilux) rolls in evasive maneuvers. It’s also not GM’s fault if the Tahoe does this, nor Ford’s for the Explorer (even with Firestone tires). Cars and trucks have different strengths and weaknesses that depend on their use. You can evade a moose in an M3, but you can’t haul a ton of lumber up a mountain in it. When you drive a vehicle you need to know it’s limits and drive within those limits, even if it (gasp) means driving under the speed limit.
I drive on a twisty mountain road every day. When I have my Subaru LGT, I drive like a jackass at about 50-60 MPH, but when I have my 4Runner I don’t dare go above 30 because I know that I can’t make the turns and if a deer jumps out in front of me, I need the time to react.
I don’t begrudge people using Pickups as daily commuters even if they don’t need them, I begrudge them when the use of them as daily commuters causes the nanny state to require more “safety” equipment that makes them heaver, more expensive, and takes away from their core strengths.
I went deer hunting with my BMW once and I thought that was bad. Saw those moose pictures…damn.
whatdoiknow1, moose inhabit many areas that are not mountainous. I encountered them frequently in Manitoba on land that was forested but flat as a pool table. My closest encounter came when I crested a hill on a dead straight road at a perfectly reasonable speed on my way home from a fishing trip.
I also have pics of a white Monte Carlo (sans moose) but with equally extensive damage.
Two points:
1. Minor quibble: The Hilux and the Tacoma are not the same thing and never were. The Hilux is Toyota’s name for its world-truck. In the US they didn’t use the name Hilux much but I clearly remember seeing it on the sales invoice of the 1985 Toyota pickup I bought new that year. Toyota’s first pickup sold in the US was called the Stout, but all the ones after that (starting around 1969) were Hiluxes through 1994. In 1995 Toyota replaced the Hilux with the NA-market-only Tacoma which is similar to, but not the same as, the Hilux sold in other parts of the world.
2. Major Quibble: Top heavy vehicle rolls in a violent swerve? Wow, next you’ll be telling me that snow is cold. The reality is that most of the people who buy high-riding vehicles do so because they need those capabilities (not only will your M5 not haul a half cord of firewood, it will not get you to that remote campsite that is 50 miles of rutted, muddy two-track away from the nearest paved road.) Furthermore, contrary to the opinions of many here at TTAC, most people who buy trucks do so fully knowing of the limitations they impose (presumably the same thing is true of people who buy M5s and know that a run to Home Depot for a few sheets of drywall will be out of the question.)
The CR hit-pieces on the Samurai and the Trooper were just flat out agenda-driven shoddy journalism. Neither one of them was any less safe than any other similar type of vehicle, and these types of vehicles have been on the road since WWII. Anyone smarter than a tree stump knows that if you drive a truck or SUV like it’s a Porsche 911 you’re going to have problems. The fact that very few people actually roll or wreck these vehicles (in proportion to the vast number of people driving them) is testament to the fact that most people do, indeed, recognize the limitations and abilities of the vehicles they drive.
With the rampant overpopulation of white-tailed deer around here, I’d say a plethora of Taco rollovers is a very real possibility.
Seeing as how the Hilux was sold in the US from 1969 to 1994 and the Tacoma from 1995-present, if there were going to be a “plethora of Taco rollovers” you would have seen them already.
I wonder how full-size American trucks would fare?
I’m guessing alot of those laughing at the clumsy TToy wouldn’t be any more.
My prior comments: “Toyota need to address this responsibly. All worldwide auto makers should incorporate this “test” before green-lighting any vehicles.
I have to wonder if 1/2 the tall tippy uselessly massive US trucks and SUV’s with frames would pass the test, but that’s another story.”
Just to be absolutely forthwright, the whole comment was sarcasm.
Of COURSE a tall tippy vehicle is going to handle an emergency maneuver less nibly than will a Porsche 928.
As others have so adroitly commented upon, however, a car of most any description cannot do what a pickup can do – i.e. haul a cord of firewood, or go 4x4ing into the boonies to a fishin’ (or deer huntin’) camp / cabin.
And yes, it is because of our nanny state that we will soon have vehicle stability control on everything, and why we have a plethora of air bags on all new vehicles, etc. etc.
At the risk of being slapped by RF, I’ll include an email I got from a friend yesterday. It’s “very illuminating.” And relevent to the above nanny state commentary.
No Free Lunch
There was a Chemistry professor in a large college that had some Exchange students in the class.
One day while the class was in the lab the Prof noticed one young man (exchange student) who kept rubbing his back and stretching as if his back hurt.
The professor asked the young man what the matter was. The student told him he had a bullet lodged in his back. He had been shot while fighting communists in his native country who were trying to overthrow his country’s government.
In the midst of his story he looked at the professor and asked a strange question. He asked, ‘Do you know how to catch wild pigs?’
The professor thought it was a joke and asked for the punch line. The young man said this was no joke.
‘You catch wild pigs by finding a suitable place in the woods and putting corn on the ground. The pigs find it and begin to come everyday to eat the free corn.
When they are used to coming every day, you put a fence down one side of the place where they are used to coming. When they get used to the fence, they begin to eat the corn again and you put up another side of the fence. They get used to that and start to eat again. You continue until you have all four sides of the fence up with a gate in the last side.
The pigs, which are used to the free corn, start to come through the gate to eat; you slam the gate on them and catch the whole herd.
Suddenly the wild pigs have lost their freedom.
They run around and around inside the fence, but they are caught. Soon they go back to eating the free corn. They are so used to it that they have forgotten how to forage in the woods for themselves, so they accept their captivity.’
The young man then told the professor that is exactly what he sees happening to America. The government keeps pushing us toward Communism/Socialism and keeps spreading the free corn out in the form of programs such as supplemental income, tax credit for unearned income, tobacco subsidies, dairy subsidies, payments not to plant crops (CRP), welfare, medicine, drugs, etc. while we continually lose our freedoms- just a little at a time.
One should always remember “There is no such thing as a free Lunch!”
Also, “You can never hire someone to provide a service for you cheaper than you can do it yourself.”
Also, if you see that all of this wonderful government ‘help’ is a problem confronting the future of democracy in America, you might want to send this on to your friends.
I don’t think mandating esc on a car is quite the same as promoting communism. After all, you would still be enjoying the lovely benefits of burning tetraethyl lead if it were not for government regulation.
The notion that “You can never hire someone to provide a service for you cheaper than you can do it yourself.” is completely ridiculous. Do you perform your own dental work or refine your own gasoline?
Well..it might flip but so far it’s the only truck that’s ever been driven to the North Pole.
Glenn126, if you re-read your original post I think you’ll see how easy it was to read your comment as being completely serious.
Given how much we know of your political tendencies, however, we should have noticed the cognitive dissonance and amped up our sarcasm detectors.
whatdoiknow1:
Actually, hitting a moose is like having an accident with another automobile that happens to be on stilts. You hit the legs with the bumper … the rest keeps coming at you at windshield height.
Thanks, dean (I think). Well, I figure that life is politics and politics life because politics insinuates itself into our lives, we are born in a world where power belongs to the powerful and were supposedly born into an American nation which attempted to make it possible for “everyman” (and later, “everywoman”) to be a part of the power-deciding process. In this we were preceeded (in some ways) by Britain and followed by Canada and other nations, with variations on the theme.
Unless we’re Amish and ride around in buggies behind big-ass (literally) horses, then to some extent in our lives, the political processes touch us. In fact, even the Amish are “touched” by taxes, for example, but they try to ignore it (and do not vote).
KBW, I didn’t say I agreed with everything in the email I cc’d, I just let everyone have a read and take from it what they will.
Society must have limits placed upon it or else it becomes chaos, and this includes safety features in automobiles.
Having recently read the book entitled “Chrome Colossus – General Motors and its times” by Ed Cray, I have to tell you that if it weren’t for the government, GM would still be selling cars with non-collapsable steering columns (sternums being the collapsable “feature” in accidents), no seat belts, single circuit brakes, etc. – despite competition which introduced dual circuit brakes (Rambler), front disc brakes (Studebaker), etc.
You see, GM was “king of the castle” with 55% of the US market “back in the day” so competitive forces were meted out BY them, not TO them.
Another excellent book right up everyone’s alley and which I would highly recommend to all my friends here at TTAC, I just bought recently and have not finished yet. Thus far, anyway, it’s excellent.
It’s called “The End of Detroit – how the big three lost their grip on the American car market” by Micheline Maynard.
if the thing rolls over on a clover leaf doing 45mph ya thats bad- but they basically are taking a vehicle and trying to flip it with over with over correction on a top heavy vehicle –next i suppose there going to be shocked that 4 wheel drive vehicles dont stop any quicker on loose gravel,snow, ice, ect.
I don't think ESP/DSC/ESC/eNannies are necessarily a bad thing. That video of the Toyota maneuvering through the cones is the closest I've ever seen to a vehicle high-siding (to use a motorcycle term): they very nearly have three wheels off the ground! If the eNanny keeps the cab from being crushed in a roll-over, how is that a bad thing? Should we take more responsibility for our driving (and actions in general)? Of course. But I hardly see how a helping hand like this is the end of motoring as we know it. Has anyone seen the Mercedes demo (at the MB museum in Stuttgart) of their monster-huge touring bus going through an obstacle course like this one? It's a thing of beauty and nearly defies the laws of physics. A bus driver performing an emergency avoidance maneuver now has a much higher likelihood of not killing a hundred innocent passengers. The thing about the unexpected is that you never know when it's coming. I don't think that cars should be designed with autopilots that alleviate their drivers from having to think or use common sense (er, what's that?), but I think that a (defeatable) eNanny designed to keep the wheels on the ground is a good thing.
I have some great Moose pics from a Police Cruiser that hit one in Ontario from the 80’s. The entire top of the car was completely sheared right off. The car was on a flatbed being towed out of Algonquin Park at the time, and we got to talk to the officer involved. He came over a hill with the sun in his face, hit a turn, and right there, MOOSE, and had no time to do anything, just duck. The cruiser became a convertible in a couple of seconds.
The Police and Rangers up there have a lot of stories about Moose hits, and how Trucks are told never to honk at them. They will apparently take a transport honking at them as a challenge sometimes and charge instead of run.
Wow, Wulv, thanks for the tip about NOT honking at a Moose. I’ll be travelling through the Upper Peninsula of Michigan and on west, then up to Lake Louise and Banff next July.
That would kind of screw up my vacation to be stopped on a road with a big Moose standing in the way, honking (to say “move it you big lummox!”) and having mr moose think that means “you wanna fight?! c’mere!”
I think for sure that either of my cars would “lose” that fight, somehow.
Locally, we have the biggest herd of Buffalo east of the Mississippi (in Traverse City Michigan) and one day last year, six got through a fence and were wandering around on a road – some lady had a Ford Escort, came over a hill, round a bend and WHAM suddenly, she had a bull Buffalo on the hood of her Ford. All four tires blew out, the hood was crushed down onto the engine, etc. and mr Buffalo just got up and limped off.
Imagine trying to explain that one to your insurance adjuster…. (to finish the story, all six of the Buffalo had to finally be shot since they are NOT cows and would not go back into their fenced area).
In Australia, if you live out in the country, you need a roo-bar in your vehicle if you hope to have it survive. It is not if, but when, you will hit a kangaroo. Roos are about the same size and weigh as deer in the US.
Why not use them in parts of Canada and US where there are plenty of deer?
I don’t think a car roo-bar will help much in a moose-vs-car collision. However, the large trucks (lorries) in Oz have massive heavy steel roo-bars that can plow through any critter they hit. In Queensland, the Red Kangaroos are huge, 6-feet tall. So these cross-country truckers have to survive hitting a couple of these beast a trip.