Though local labor unions approve of an Indian owners for the venerable Jaguar brand, stateside dealers want none of it. "My concern is perception, and perception is reality," said Ken Gorin, chairman of the Jaguar Business Operations Council, to The Wall Street Journal (as reported by The India Times). "I don’t believe the US public is ready for ownership out of India for a luxury-car brand such as Jaguar… I believe it would severely throw a tremendous cast of doubt over the viability of the brand.” Though working for former Ford CEO money whiz Jac Nasser and the cash leveraged Equity One make for optimal conversation at high tea, the marble-lined showroom stockers should remember this: money talks and bullshit walks. If Jaguar sells the right cars at the right price, it won't matter from whence the leaping cats come, or which nation builds them. If Ford can sell Mexican Fusions, and GM can sell Australian Pontiacs, and Porsche can sell Finnish Boxsters, and BMW can sell German MINIs, why can't you sell Indian Jags? For shame.
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Sorry guys, the Asian Century is upon us – that’s just the way it’s going to be. 1/3 of the world’s population is in India and China, and they’re going to want to have their say and way, now that wealth is accumulating there.
Unrelated, but would an caste-conscious Indian buy a car assembled by untouchables?
Will we still be able to get leather?
Ralph: Yes, but you can’t eat it. :)
Never mind the fact that Jags will now be an object of desire for wealthy South Asians: doctors, lawyers, accountants, IT gurus, small time hoteliers, multiple Quickie Mart owners, etc.
These folks will flock to US Jag dealers, lining their used car lots with highly profitable Japanese and German luxury cars to boot. (not that you can’t make money on the used Caddies in the above picture, but you know…)
Yes I would hate to tarnish Jaguar’s image of engineering excellence with the perception of Indian engineers…
Cause English engineering is so well thought of? Frankly product rules. If they can create beautiful, elegant, competitive product, then nobody will care where it comes from. Something the Japanese and Koreans figured out a long time ago.
Gee, I thought it was bad enough Ford owning Jag, that was already several knocks against them! Now India. I fully agree with the dealers. Talk about loosing their British pride…I think the big thing here in the states, the luxury brands are either German of Japanese…we’ve rejected our own US brands (Caddy…at least I have!), we are engrooved in our ways as they say…
Ralph SS and Sajeev mentioned leather. Could someone please explain to me what is so nice about leather seats? Cloth is grippier, not slipperier; it’s warmer in winter and cooler in summer; and best of all, the only thing that gave its life for my upholstery is a bucket of chemical goo.
Do we REALLY eat so many hamburgers that we have to use up all the skin that’s lying around? Or are there cows wandering the meadows freezing to death because we have their skin on the seats of our cars?
I like leather shifters, steering wheels, and key fobs. But seat surfaces? No thanks.
Does that mean Jaguar won’t sell their cars to Indians in the USA for fear of tarnishing their reputation as a purveyor of vehicles for wealthy white men?
As others pointed out here, what will most definitely “throw a tremendous cast of doubt over the viability of the brand” is making inferior products that no one wants to buy. God help Jaguar if Gorin’s thinking is mainstream in the company.
Beggars can’t be choosers. They aren’t selling too much here, so I don’t see how another market could hurt business. It would be one thing if they actually had a brand image anymore, but since they don’t, I don’t see what they have to lose.
I don’t think racism has anything to do with it, it’s more about nationalism. I don’t think anybody would be too optimistic to buy cars assembled in Russia, and I won’t even mention YUGOslavia…
Jag wants to get its head out of the sand real quick.I’m a die hard domestic fan.Having said that.What if G.M hadn’t embraced the world market thing at the time they did?We wouldn’t have got past G.M. Death watch #80.
This isn’t racism at all. It’s about brand heritage, and national reputations. I don’t see any reason at all to buy a Jag that is a tarted up Ford, and the sales figures seem to show that many agree with me. People who buy Jag’s want a real Jag. There are better cars for the money, but few cars come with the whole package of Britishness (word?).
If the company is left in England, then I can’t see who would care. However, if manufacture is moved to India, then the whole idea that you are getting a Jaguar is completely lost. If Ford started making them in the US it would have died just as sure a death. Of course, there is something to the theory that Asian Americans will more than make up lost sales, but that is speculative, and if you owned a Jag dealership, you might not want to take the chance.
Ok lets be fair here and admit that the US jaguar dealers do have a point. But it is not a RACIST point they are making. Today they are already trying to sell cars with a “damaged” brand image. Honestly the mystic of Jaguar was that it was a British or shall we say “old world” brand. If prestige and hertiage are what sells the brand as many here have claimed, Jaguar’s hertiage was due to its racing history that is directly tied to some dead British dudes NOT AN INDIAN COMGLOMORATE.
The question for the U.S. Dealers is why did they not fuss when Ford (Americans) purchased the company? Now in all fairness Ford did have a VERY successful european auto business in addition to a successful world business. So selling out to Ford and an Unknown (to Americans) Indian company are two entirely different animals. With Ford as the owner the question of where engines and other parts would come from was moot.
The problem with an Indian company trying to sell Jaguar cars in the USA is simple, Indian companies have little to no KNOWN presense in the USA. If Americans are skeptical about possible cars being sold in the US by Chinese companies it is a given that a Indian comapny will have an uphill battle even with an established brand name. The overwhleming majority of Americans can not name ONE international Indian company or identify any Indian made “high-end” products for sale in the USA. This is in constrast to the Japanese that established themselves in the US automotive market over a period of 20 years successfully making low-end cars. The Japanese also dominating the consumer electronics industry selling Americans boatloads of expensive audio/ video equipment. Unless the Indian company is going to be a silent owner, Indian companies in general need to establish a U.S. perception of themselves as makers of high-end goods.
This situation would be the same for any company outside of NA, Western Europe, or Japan.
Today Jaguar looks like a bastard child looking for a home. This situation does not look “prestigeous” at all. It speaks of a brand on its last leg, like Packard in the early 1950s. A another sale of this brand reduces it further to just a hollow name. Who wants an expensive luxury from a company it that position?
Even if the cars returned to pre-PAG levels of reliability, just imagine how good the telephone support will be.
Yes, I’m in agreement that there’s an element of racism/ethnocentrism involved here – there’s something personally I’ve noticed traveling between between Canada and the US, that someone whose folks are from Asia “must not be one of us” attitude is prevalent south of the border but not up north.
The British labor union, BTW is pro-Tata. The choices at this point are between the two Indian corporations and a Kuwaiti-based group of investors headed by Jac “Rolled Explorer” Nasser. The US Jag dealer group, apparently a bunch of suckers and/or masochists, wants to get Knifed again.
Here’s an editorial from Business Standard, an Indian business magazine, debunking Mr. Gorin’s concerns.
I think Lexus proved that a quality & reliability reputation works. A lot of buyers aren’t the super rich with 12 cars already in the garage, but someone looking to spend close to their limits on something nice that will last. Plus don’t forget the ease-of-leasing.
The majority of people out still do not know that Ford owns Jaguar. Do they care? I don’t know. But if an Indian company quietly took Jaguar over, and actually boosted quality & reliability in the vehicles, I’m sure no one would care either. It would only attract attention to the public if the new owners made things worse, negativity always gets attention.
I think the other issue with an Indian-based ownership is the current war that no-one wants. You can google for yourself just how much the average American does not know about the war: where it’s being fought, or why! I think a general assumption would be “They them-folk over there took over Jaguar while they’re still terrorizing us, what the f*@%! Buy a Caddy!”
Two good points from starlightmica’s hyperlink.
“Perhaps Mr Gorin should talk a walk down the glitzy shops that line New York’s Fifth Avenue…and check the labels behind the tony brand names. Whether it is garments, electronic items or jewellery, Mr Gorin and his fellow dealers are likely to discover that they are mostly made in China, India, Bangladesh or any country with a relatively large number of poor people, and in any case by people who are not rich. Yet, so far, none of the purveyors of these ultra-luxury brands have complained that customers have stopped buying their products because they are made in countries that have poor people. It is difficult to see why car buyers would think differently.“
“Perhaps Mr Gorin is worried about manufacturing standards. Here he is on even weaker ground. He may recall that it was the inability of Jaguar’s previous owners, British Leyland Motor Corporation, to maintain the high manufacturing standards that gave the car its formidable reputation and cult following, that led to ownership change in the first place…On the other hand, Indian automobile companies, Mahindra and Tata among them, have built up a reputation for value engineering that combines acute cost consciousness with quality manufacturing capabilities.”
Not to mention TATA supports UK’s labor unions (and vice versa) Even if Indian presence skews Jag’s heritage for many, they are committed to keeping middle class jobs in the UK.
The labor interests see the writing on the wall. And its gonna play well compared to the Kuwaiti (?) equity firm considering moving Aston Martin (Rapide) production elsewhere. Happy workers = better cars.
Obviously, U.S. jag dealers need to go to the mother country, have their passports stamped at Heathrow by Anish Six-Pack and watch whitie Brits slurp down bowls of tikka masala and mulligatawny at the corner pub.
Tata can’t be worse than Ford.
BlueBrat :
I think the other issue with an Indian-based ownership is the current war that no-one wants. You can google for yourself just how much the average American does not know about the war: where it’s being fought, or why! I think a general assumption would be “They them-folk over there took over Jaguar while they’re still terrorizing us, what the f*@%! Buy a Caddy!”
I find it a little hard to believe that there are large numbers of persons that could afford a Jaguar but are so geopolitically challenged that they wouldn’t know the difference between Islamic extremists and Indians.
BlueBrat: Most Americans’ experience with ethnic Indians occurs in the hospital and the doctor’s office, or in the IT department, and it’s usually positive. Associating Jaguar with hyper-competent Indian software nerds and that nice Dr. Ghandi that delivered the twins can’t hurt, and probably helps.
don’t the jaguar cats come from India or is that just the bengal tiger?
The American experience with Indian goods and services is a mixed bag.
Experience with Indian professionals in the US for IT and medical care services… excellent.
Experience with Indian service (Quick-E Mart & restaurants) in the US… good. Better than their competitors, whom can be pretty bad.
Experience with Indian services IN India… not so good (Looking at you Dell).
Experience with with Indian products… none. Can’t name one.
Strike two against India is its reputation for a lack of, well how do I put this nicely, just getting shit done on time. One wonders how in a country where it takes years to get a land line or electrical hook up. How will they make top quality parts for the car?
Japan, Korea, Taiwan have all been where India is now. I have no doubt that India will, in my lifetime, achieve a reputation for quality tech products. But it is a long haul they are in for.
Jag, under Indian ownership, is going to have to work twice as hard as everyone else just to keep their critics at bay. Japan did it when Honda launched the the Legend brand and Toyota followed with Lexus.
But if they do it right, it will have a halo effect on other Indian products. They future is their’s to loose.
Jaguar – South and Central America
Leopard – Africa and Asia
Cougar – North America
Jungle Book’s black panther, Bagheera, must have been related to the leopard.
Dang… our Austin Jag dealership’s front lot looks similar… nary a Jag in sight!
sk8inkid:
What’s more British than India (except England of course)? England owned the place for many many years. India has lots of English connections, certainly more than Ford.
I was thinking the same thing. Even assuming prospective Jag buyers (all three of ’em) are an unusually ethnocentric lot, why would it be such a stretch to associate the brand with both England and India? “Sun never sets on the British Empire,” and all that…
All of this is moot. Jaguar died with Sir William a long time ago.
Tarted up Fords or tarted up TATAs, who cares what they are or who sells them, they aren’t going to be real Jaguars.
–chuck
I love the irony of an Indian company owning Jaguar. After the British stole as much as they could out of India, its nice that India can get a piece of it back. I just hope that TATA can make it work.
I think TATA will probably be a behind the scenes owner, empowering Jaguar to determine thier own destiny.
I wonder if Indian in Mother India and the Ex Pats living all over the world, will spend thier hard earned cash on Jaguars now, or will they, like my relatives back in India, avoid “Indian Jaguar” and chose ‘foreign’ brands because its, well, foreign, and exclusive (at least when they are bragging about it to the nieghbours)
baabthesaab :
leather
If it’s any solace, I agree with you. I don’t care for the leather. I freaked out an Acura salesman by telling him the same. I like velour for the same reasons people like carpet. I find it warmer and more inviting, and also like you said, it’ll hold you in through the corners, it isn’t so temp sensitive, and it doesn’t need to be sliced off of a cow. Unfortunately, velour is considered too low class for many luxury brands. I don’t think you can get an Acura or Infiniti anymore without leather.
Nemphre: Acura, no, not since the discontinuation of the RSX. Infiniti, soon yes. The base model EX35 will have cloth seats. I guess this is following Lexus, which offers cloth on the base RX350 (but not its other models). Other than exotics, the only all-leather manufacturers I can think of are Acura and Saab. (Edit: d’oh, I forgot Jaguar on a Jaguar thread. What does that tell you?)
Personally I’d be just as happy with a good quality pleather (I’m thinking of MB-Tex here) or the strange space-age stuff Volvo uses (T-Tec). A good woven cloth is OK, but to often the fabric on seats is made out of belly button lint. I have leather seats now, and as long as they’re heated I’m happy.
Carzzi-My local Jaguar dealer is really a Lincoln-Mercury-Jaguar dealer, so there’s not all that many Jaguars there-but that’s not quite as bad as the fact that my local Cadillac dealer is a GMC-Pontiac-Buick-Cadillac dealer, which means that Pontiac G5s costing $15,000 are fifteen yards away from Cadillac XLR-Vs costing $100,000.
Once a car salesman, always a car salesman I guess.
In his book “Blink”, Malcolm Gladwell discussed research that revealed how Chicago-area car salesmen made all sorts of prejudicial assumptions about potential customers based on ethnicity and gender.
Perhaps Mr. Gorin is simply a product of his environment…;-D..
http://gladwell.typepad.com/gladwellcom/2006/12/bad_stereotypin.html
I bet they’ll sell more Indian Jaguars than they will Chinese Buicks.
Starlight,
You may think there is a difference between Canada and the US on racism, but there is not. I lived there. Different areas of Canada, like the US, have different sets of prejudices about different folks. I think you are being fooled by their ability to toe the party line in word rather than action. Once you spend more time working with people up there, you will find that they are little different in most ways. Especially if you get out of the cities.
If you REALLY want to observe racism, learn an Asian language and walk amongst them as if you cannot understand. Color me racist, but Alabama has nothing on the east asian societies when it comes to racism. Yes, I have lived over there as well.
I don’t believe racism is at the heart of the Jag thing. Had Ford pulled manufacturing and engineering out of Britain the same thing would have happened. No one thought Ford would kill the goose, and they didn’t (though they may have bruised it a bit).
Landcrusher: If you REALLY want to observe racism, learn an Asian language and walk amongst them as if you cannot understand. Color me racist, but Alabama has nothing on the east asian societies when it comes to racism. Yes, I have lived over there as well.
No argument there: I’ve been ashamed at what my fellow Indians say in Hindi, assuming their subject matter doesn’t understand. Its disgusting.
I expect this will also happen when Indians sit with a Jag salesman to negotiate their next TATA-esque ride.
Well unfortunately the Jags would smell of Curry, and no truly blue blooded scion could tolerate that for long…
Alfamike: its not India’s fault that Chicken Tikka Masala was voted the UK’s most favorite dish.
Tell the blokes (with Indian job security) screwing the Jags together to stick with blood pudding on workdays. :)
Interesting take on this by Andrew Leonard, who has written lots of smart things about Globalisation at the not-so-smart Salon.com:
The Ludicrousness of White Cachet
http://www.salon.com/tech/htww/2007/12/18/white_brand_value/index.html
Dear Mr. Leonard,
Right, it’s all about racism. We can all be assured of that now, because you have put it so simply. WHAT were we thinking to doubt it?
We know, for instance, that in India several types of French curry powder have taken off and are gaining market share rapidly.
Well, maybe that is true (though I did make it up), but how many American’s would prefer French curry powder to an Indian import? No, when your neighbor decides to try their hand at curry, they will not likely be buying something with french on the label.
Also, cowboys supposedly threaten to string up people who serve them salsa from anywhere north of I-10. Is that racism as well? (I learned this bit the same place you learned about how all white people are racists).
Sorry, but the only way you can write this off as racism so simply is if you are predisposed to do so. People with any respect for others whatsoever would be more considerate before stating,or spreading, an accusation of racism, which in our society is considered an awful offense.
And while we are actually trying to engage our minds, what reason other than trying to buy the cache would Tata have?