I don't pretend the understand the reasoning behind the NAACP's (National Association for the Advancement of Colored People) decision to fight Cincinnati's plans to install red light cameras. According to the Enquirer, "Several NAACP members Thursday said they don’t like the idea of the cameras because it would infringe on their civil rights." And they kind of, you know, hinted that prospective camera placement might be racially biased: "NAACP member Elizabeth Sanford said she thinks the cameras may unfairly target some neighborhoods more than others." But hey, the NAACP will certainly earn some brownie points for this campaign. Given the cameras' dubious safety benefits, their Big Brother implications, and the fact that East Cleveland and Steubenville have punted their town's dreams of red light camera revenue, the NAACP's petition is likely to succeed. As thenewspaper reports, the NAACP will thusly thwart the Cincinnati City Council's cunning plan to end-run Mayor Charlie Luken's red light camera veto by slipping the measure into their annual budget. Anything for a buck, eh?
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Having seen the positive effects of remote camera monitoring on formerly dangerous boulevards in Washington DC and Philadelphia, I’m all for ’em.
Of course I have nothing to hide, like those in the driving public who insist on steering their car, eating a taco, and hitting the crack pipe simultaneously.
The system works today because both the traffic system (laws, lights, limits, etc.) is imperfect and the enforcement is imperfect, so there is balance. By adding the red-light camera, the enforcement becomes perfect. However, this creates disequilibrium–perfect enforcement of an imperfect system. The government has a responsibility to invest more in traffic signal technology, take more care in creating and updating traffic laws, and make a genuine effort to improve driver education (sorely lacking today). So a responsible government would invest in the road system first, then create fancy new enforcement techniques. Not the other way around.
How is a red light camera any different than a cop sitting there with a camera on his front dashboard?
John
Yeah, it’s not possible that black people could ever the law more often…
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F03E0DF1138F932A15750C0A9649C8B63
Maybe this happens because they know if they get pulled over, they can pull the race card and scream “RACIAL PROFILING!“.
I’m not trying to say that all black people violate every law more often. I’m just saying that, based on this New Jersey study on speeding, it can be true. The problem is, if anyone suggests it could be so, they are immediately labeled a racist.
Of course, for posting this, I will probably get that too…
BlisterInTheSun: Having seen the positive effects of remote camera monitoring on formerly dangerous boulevards in Washington DC and Philadelphia, I’m all for ‘em.
Of course I have nothing to hide…
Once upon a time, I was setting up some computers for a local police-detectives training session. The sluths were going to be taught about how to stalk nab on line preditors and the like.
When I told one of the guys involved with the class that I thought this was fine because “I have nothing to hide,” when on line, he replied:
“Don’t be so quick to give away your freedom.”
Red light cameras are popping up like lawn thistle in Columbus and not a peep out of the NAACP. What gives?
TexasAg03:
I speed all the time. I’m usually to be found around 10-15 miles over the limit when safe. At the risk of starting a massive debate…whenever I get passed by someone driving more than just over the limit, but very recklessly, I can tell you thier skin color, and I’m sure the report says the same. But thats another debate for another time.
Glenn:
But at what point do we draw the line. I personally have no problems with the “rights” of sexual predators being violated whatsoever. Once you start trying to pick up minors in a chat room for sex, all those rights go straight out the window.
Matthew Danda:
Very true. Its the problem of the babies in the river. We find all these way to rescue the babies while never actually going down the river to address the problem.
The main concern of the NAACP is “SELECT ENFORCEMENT OF THE LAW”. Any black person (and many poor white people) in America can explain this concept to you if you don’t understand it.
This law suit is to ensure that the Red Light Cameras are evenly distributed thoughout the city and NOT concentrated in a few neighborhoods. Let keep it real here, Red Light Cameras are about revenue and not public safety. A great deal of the general population view them as intrusions onto their liberty and freedom. Many also feel that these cameras a public nusence.
Needless to say it is far easier to place these things in poorer communities without expeincing much political ($$$$$) backlash. Cities are not stupid they also know that for these cameras to be effective as revenue producing tools they need to catch folks that will be unable to successfully fight the fines in court.
You dont put these things in an area were the residents have ready access to the mayor and other politicians.
Now I do not know if the mayor of Cin City is black or white, I would not be suprised to find out he is black. So this is NOT necessarily a racial issue as it is a socio-economic one of putting an unfair burden on a particular community.
Having seen the positive effects of remote camera monitoring on formerly dangerous boulevards in Washington DC and Philadelphia, I’m all for ‘em.
Of course I have nothing to hide, like those in the driving public who insist on steering their car, eating a taco, and hitting the crack pipe simultaneously.
Have you also noticed the rear end collisions and money grabs in those areas? Philly right now is fighting over who gets to spend the loot from more cameras. The roosevelt blvd is still on the top of Allstate’s most dangerous roads list because it is badly designed, has annoying redlights that are not syncronized, and feeds through the heart of the northeast. Rather than address the multiple lanes and confusing directionals they went for the cash prize. 1 in 5 residents don’t have car insurance, how about calling them on that instead?
I didn’t realize red light cameras were intended to ticket people for eating while driving or hitting the pipe as well.
Anybody here for integrated black boxes that update the authorities on position, speed, and even events going on in your car while you drive? No Onstar for me, thanks.
whatdoiknow1 : This law suit is to ensure that the Red Light Cameras are evenly distributed thoughout the city and NOT concentrated in a few neighborhoods. Only it's not a lawsuit (it's a petition for a referendum) and the NAACP make no mention whatsoever of selective enforcement issues. The newspaper reporter felt obliged to add that angle, albeit obliquely.
Virtual Insanity :
December 28th, 2007 at 11:33 am
TexasAg03:
I speed all the time. I’m usually to be found around 10-15 miles over the limit when safe. At the risk of starting a massive debate…whenever I get passed by someone driving more than just over the limit, but very recklessly, I can tell you thier skin color, and I’m sure the report says the same. But thats another debate for another time.
Can you really identify the race of every driver that passes you traveling at speeds in excess of 75-80mph?
Considering that people who identify themselves as black or African-American range in skin color from the background of this webpage to the color of my black keyboard I would like to know how it is that you can tell a persons race while driving?
If they just passed you you are looking at the back of their head! Or better yet the back of their seat!
The fact of the matter is you CANT! Only the fools you did the orginial study would stand by such a silly premise, and of course the few idiots that want to believe what they just read.
I am going to generalize here and claim that only a White-American could make such a stupid claim. Black people have skin color that ranges from white to olive to jet black. They have hair that ranges from strait to totally kinky and can be of any natural color you can think of. Black folks have body shapes the run the entire spectrum. Some blacks have eyes as narrows as Asians and some have noses that would look good on a status of Thor. Yet somehow you can tell with certainty that a black person just passed your car on the interstate?
Think about what you say before you say it!
Maybe this happens because they know if they get pulled over, they can pull the race card and scream “RACIAL PROFILING!“.
Racial profiling isn’t just based on the perception that black drivers are more likely to be pulled over for speeding. It’s about what happens after the search, where black and hispanic drivers are more likely to be subject to discretionary searches when the only probable cause an officer has is that the driver is driving an expensive automobile or in an area that is inconsistent with his ethnicity.
As such, are these red-light cameras placed in areas where there is a high accident rate, or is this just another attempt at revenue generation by the city?
They’ve installed a fair number of these cameras in the Dallas area recently and I’ve noticed something interesting. Sometimes, I would be sitting at a light and all of a sudden one of those cameras will start flashing like a strobelight for a few seconds, 5 or 6 seconds maybe even when there is no car going through the red light. Can can these cameras be triggered by a car that has simply stopped ahead of the line? Because that’s what seems to be happening.
Or does anyone have a different explanation?
The fact of the matter is you CANT! Only the fools you did the orginial study would stand by such a silly premise, and of course the few idiots that want to believe what they just read.
I don’t think one person identifying people who pass him is very reliable. The difference with the study in New Jersey is that they recorded the image of the speeder when the car was clocked.
From the New York Times article I posted the link to earlier:
The study used specially designed radar gun cameras, which are used to photograph the license plates of speeders and whose photos are accepted as evidence in many courts around the country, to capture images of drivers in a variety of locations on the turnpike. The study defined speeding as exceeding the speed limit by 15 miles per hour, and officers are instructed to focus on the most egregious speeders.
Researchers then showed the photos of 38,747 drivers to teams of three evaluators who tried to determine each driver’s race, without knowing whether the driver had sped or not. At least two evaluators were able to agree on the race of 26,334 of the drivers photographed, and an analysis of those motorists found that the disparity between white and black drivers widened at higher speeds.
In the southern segment of the turnpike, where the speed limit is 65 m.p.h., 2.7 percent of black drivers were speeders, compared with 1.4 percent of white drivers. Among drivers going faster than 90 m.p.h., the disparity was even greater.
By contrast, blacks were no more likely to speed than whites when the limit was 55 m.p.h. In those geographical segments of the turnpike, 13.1 percent of black drivers were speeders, compared with 13.5 percent of white drivers.
Those results startled officials in the state attorney general’s office, who had assumed that the radar study would bolster their case that profiling was widespread. Instead, the study concluded that blacks make up 16 percent of the drivers on the turnpike and 25 percent of the speeders in the 65 m.p.h. zones, where complaints of profiling have been most common.
1. How is it different from a cop?
It has no judgement, it doesn’t stop you and correct you, it can’t see all the circumstances, the cop is less profitable, there is a corporation incented to create tickets, they create more sudden stop accidents, the cities don’t shorten the yellows everytime a cop shows up, some cops would blow the whistle when they go to spam mode, I never heard of anyone getting a ticket from a cop for someone else and then having to prove it or be threatened and harassed by mail, etc.
2. Have nothing to hide?
Are you kidding? I would rather have them listening in on all my phone calls. Let’s compare. With the traffic light, you get a notice in the mail falsely accusing you of running a red light. You call in, and find it will take you several hours of your time to get rid of them. OTOH, a computer picks out some key words. They then have a PERSON listen in. If it still sounds suspicious, they may investigate you. You will likely never find out. If you are falsely accused in a negligent manner, it will hopefully have serious repurcusssions for REAL PEOPLE. Thus, it is less likely to happen. One is a frivolous and callous waste of your time to get your money, the other is a serious attempt to get terrorists. We can reduce traffic deaths a lot easier and cheaper than the cameras, but the cameras make money for the pols, not cost money for the pols.
3. Energy
Has anyone calculated the energy these things will waste? People will be accelerating and decelerating a lot more aggressively around these lights. Where are all the greens on this one?
4. Life saved vs. lost calculation
Has anyone calculated how many lives are saved vs. time wasted over these contraptions? On average you save so many living minutes when you save a life. If you end up wasting more living minutes by people whose lives are interrupted with the various effects of these things what did you gain?
5. Externalities
Where are all you guys with your externalities arguments on this one? The government is seriously taking advantage on this one.
On Nebraska plates,the letters “O” and “Q” look too much alike at a distance, the tail of the Q being very short. Ditto, Iowa. Both states also have short tails converting “P”s to “R”s.
We don’t have cameras here yet, but having the letters PRQ in my Ranger’s plates, I’m concerned that I might get a ticket from Council Bluffs, IA, which does have cameras.
People I know who have dealt with the camera system say that the camera readers don’t double-check with IOWA DMV, let alone “foreign DMVs”, to cross check fuzzy images.
Thus, I could get a ticket meant for someone with my 3-digit number and the prefix “PPO” despite the fact that the vehicle in the picture is not a Ranger.
They need a software program that compares vehicles with all combinations of probable positives such that a Buick with plates that MIGHT BE PPO123, could be positively matched with the number PRQ123 and the Nissan owner with PPO123 could be spared the inconvenience and expense of having to go to court to show proof that the car in the photo isn’t his.
These companies are going for volume, not accuracy. They won’t insist on accuracy so long as their contracts pay them per RAW I.D., not per ACCURATE I.D.
IMHO, make these companies pay fines of $11,000 for every false positive–$1000 to the govt. and $10,000 to the wronged vehicle owner.
After receiving a photo of my well used ’55 Mercedes running a light in a Frankfort, Germany intersection in the mid sixties, I was glad that it was a mailed photo citation and not a Frankfort Polezi stopping me. I gladly paid the fine and counted my blessings.
I would think that the NAACP folks in Cincinnati would be of the same mindset, avoiding face to face interaction with the local police while driving is almost always a positive thing.
If Cincinnati places thecameras as they recently were in the Houston, Texas area using the highest accident and red light violations written criteria to determine camera placement, how can that be determined to be racial profiling? Just concerned about NAACP’s collective mindset toward their pushback to this deterrent to accidents.
Hopefully Cincinnati places warning signs that intersections are camera monitored as Houston did before installing them. Houston also used a “grace period” where violators were issued warnings only. That’s doing it the right way in my book!
Landcrusher:
Has anyone calculated the energy these things will waste? People will be accelerating and decelerating a lot more aggressively around these lights. Where are all the greens on this one?
Yeah. Also, “Environmental Impact Statement” is 3 words that may put the fear of death into any red-light camera company.
whatdoiknow1:
Let keep it real here, Red Light Cameras are about revenue and not public safety.
I figure 3/4 of ALL traffic law enforcement is about revenue and not public safety. Red light cameras are the logical next step in a corrupt system.
My biggest concern with red light cameras is that people may be more likely to slam on their brakes suddenly. This could cause a collision where they otherwise may have gone through the intersection with no trouble.
I figure 3/4 of ALL traffic law enforcement is about revenue and not public safety. Red light cameras are the logical next step in a corrupt system.
That may be but, in some cases, traffic stops help in other areas. My brother is a narcotics officer, and many of their operations begin with a traffic stop. They catch someone with drugs in their car and the information they get leads them to dealers and “manufacturers”.
Oh, and Timothy McVeigh and Ted Bundy were both caught when they were stopped for traffic offenses.
I don’t see enforcement of the laws as a corrupt system. Maybe the laws need to be changed, but how would we change them. Is it okay to run a red light? Is it okay to drive 20 mph over the posted speed limit? What should the speed limit be? What about the limit for Michael Schumacher in a Ferrari? What about the limit Ted Kennedy in an Oldsmobile Delmont 88 on a bridge?
I may be able to drive 100 mph safely in a BMW 335i, but my wife’s 74 year old grandmother probably shouldn’t do more than 55 mph in her Buick.
Texas Ag,
Precisely. That is why a cop is better – judgement. From what I understand (in Texas), if you cannot stop at a yellow without slamming your brakes or entering the intersection anyway, you are to proceed cautiously through the intersection. Police supposedly will give you a pass if you do not accelerate, and if they see your brake lights or other signs you were not just trying to “beat the red”. But these cameras give you incentive to slam it or gun it. The yellow light at kirby and westheimer will NOT allow me to exit the intersection at normal speed when taking a left turn, even if the yellow pops as I cross the line. I may put my camera on their camera, or get the press out here soon.
Landcrusher,
The Texas Transportation Code says:
An operator of a vehicle facing only a steady red signal shall stop at a clearly marked stop line. In the absence of a stop line, the operator shall stop before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection.
The way that has commonly been interpreted is that if the light turns red and any part of your car is past the “stop” line, you are okay to proceed.
Enforcement of laws after the fact does not make anyone safer.
Having a red light camera does not pervent people from running a red light, it only records what has happened. If the driver that does run the red light causes an accident anyway the stupid camera has done nothing but provide the manicipality with the means to send a fine to the driver. Yet the accident has still happened.
The premise behind these cameras is that the offending drivers are doing so on purpose. If an intersection is dangerous and accident prone the way to make it safe is to change the traffic patterns and or light patterns. An addtional set of flashing yellow light a fair distance before the intersection would do more good than a passive camera that does nothing active to help make the intersection safer.
Revenue producing camera are actually at odds with road safety simply because they do produce revenue. This no different than setting up a speed trap on a unsafe road as opposed to posting warnings and sign stating that fact. Once cities get accustom to this revenue there becomes a big conflict of interest between non-revenue producing safety measures and the camera.
If people stop running red lights in significant numbers the city is in a hole for its investment in this technology. No city installs these things without an estimated expectation of revenue/ profit beforehand. Once again safety is not part of the “REAL” issue.
Columbus has them where they think suburbanites who commute into town for work might drive – another way of taxing those who cannot vote city council out of office.
It’s bad enough we already pay a 2% income tax to a city you don’t even live in, but now this as well.
I really hate working downtown – I wish my employer would move out of state – I’d do the transfer.
You know… a fellow told me that if you use a temporary tag instead of a regular tag, they can’t clock ya.
Temporary tags are also good for an awful lot of other things. If you want to avoid emissions (or emission related repairs), just go to the local mall and rip one off. Your set for quite a while. Oh, and if you ever want to take a long ride somewhere without anyone tracking you (don’t bring a cellphone), that temporary tag can come in real handy.
It amazes me that the law would actually let you use a piece of paper and a sticker in place of a REGISTERED LICENSE PLATE these days. It’s easier to steal cars (and use them as a daily driver), allow terrorists to freely roam our country, and essentially make any dangerous person in this world completely anonymous… than it is to let folks simply keep their REGISTERED LICENSE PLATE. Most states do this just so they could generate revenue from ‘car dealers’. Many of whom aren’t even legal citizens of the United States.
What was this about again? Law enforcement??? Nevermind.
TexasAg03:
I don’t see enforcement of the laws as a corrupt system. Maybe the laws need to be changed, but how would we change them. Is it okay to run a red light? Is it okay to drive 20 mph over the posted speed limit? What should the speed limit be? What about the limit for Michael Schumacher in a Ferrari? What about the limit Ted Kennedy in an Oldsmobile Delmont 88 on a bridge?
I have no beef with certain enforcement. But laws and enforcement practice tend to punish driving 90mph on an empty highway in good weather much more so than those doing the same speed and weaving thru rush traffic. This is part of both law enforcement culture and popular culture – a culture that tolerates a large amount of automotive carnage.
The law and its officers COULD, using current mobile cameras/cellular/tracking technology, enforce & arrest the latter in the above paragraph. But there’s too much effort and too little money in such enforcement. Red light cameras = Lot$ of dough for little investment.
In fact, I suspect the reason cop CARS are NOT fitted with (increasingly affordable) plate scanning cameras/devices is that they do not WANT to have to pull over (or justify why they don’t pull over) the huge mass of humanity that is driving with expired tags, warrants, etc.
In fact, I suspect the reason cop CARS are NOT fitted with (increasingly affordable) plate scanning cameras/devices is that they do not WANT to have to pull over (or justify why they don’t pull over) the huge mass of humanity that is driving with expired tags, warrants, etc.
Texas has a system in place (in use in January 2008) where the officer can enter (or maybe call in to dispatch) a plate number and know immediately if the car is insured. This will help get around the counterfeit insurance cards, as well.
By the way, I know of many people who have been pulled over for expired tags.
WhatdoIknow,
There is a core of truth to what you are saying, but your first line is overreaching. I suspect that a sign saying there is a camera would work better than the camera if the cat never left the bag, but the camera’s do reduce accidents at their intersections (likely cause a few different ones as well). San Diego was caught having REDUCED the yellow light times though, and that was REALLY dangerous as before the cameras went in, they found that expanding the yellow light time saved lives. In the end though, the camera company and the city conspired in a way that I believe most police would not (quota’s can corrupt police though).
Tex,
Thanks for that clarification of the rules, but do you know if you only get your picture taken if you cross after the red, or does it nail you if you fail to clear the intersection in time?
That’s whats got me worried, so I suspect others are worried as well. Those worries could cause some trouble.
TexasAg03,
What I had in mind would require NO contact with dispatch by the officer. PD’s in NY State had been testing an in-car scanning device that, at speed differences less than 30mph, gathered plate info from every car (parked or moving) that passes or is passed. Problem plates trigger an alert that brings up make/model/color and an enforcement decision has to be made.
This seems to me (assuming scanned info from clean plates is dumped from the database) like a huge safety advance by pulling over suspect drivers. But it costs in terms of officer time/effort – unlike red light cameras which have little cost and lotsa potential revenue.
Ah, love the cameras. She was clicked recently here in Knoxville. I told my her that next time she runs the red light out near our neighborhood at Papermill and Kingston Pike, she needs to let me wash the Focus first. Both shots of her, and the car, half way through the intersection, way past the line show a very dirty Burgandy car. This is very embarassing! The $50 fine sucked as well, it wasn’t even a high-res shot.