CNNMoney's caught diesel fever, echoing "experts" predicting sales of oil burners stateside are set to rise by 300 percent over the next ten years. That's "partly because diesel engines generally deliver anywhere from 20 to 40 percent better fuel economy than gasoline-powered engines, depending on the vehicle and engine size." While we're impressed by the assertion's qualifier count, and wonder what the other part of "partly" might be (it can't be diesel engines' higher production costs), the real mystery is how CNN could write such a blatantly pro-diesel piece without once mentioning the word "particulates." Or comparing European diesel tailpipe regs to California's (which sets the U.S. standard). Instead, we get the happy-clappies from Patrik Borenius, manager of advanced product planning for Mercedes. "The new clean-diesel engines provide three key benefits," Borenius opined. "It's a more fuel-efficient technology, so the customer gets better gas mileage; it offers environmental benefits by producing less carbon dioxide and greenhouse gasses, and it's one of the answers to the energy issue, in terms of reducing our dependence on foreign oil." So where are these Mercedes' clean diesels? Again, talk to California. And what of Honda's new clean diesel engine that meets the CA standards? Nothing.
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Actually, the soot emitted by diesel engines could potentially slow climate change; the large carbon chains in soot effectively sequester carbon, and the soot should also cause “global cooling” if we emit enough to reduce the sunlight striking the earth. It’s a “win-win” except for having to wear those pesky MSA respirators…
In my area diesel is 17% more expensive than regular gas so unless you are getting the 30%-40% better mileage model then it isn’t really worth it to buy a diesel car since they will cost more than a comparable gasoline engine model.
I have always understood that diesel fuel is a less refined product than gasoline, and that a gallon of diesel represents about 30% more crude oil than a gallon of gasoline. If this is true, 30% better mileage would be only a break-even point in terms of reducing our dependence on foreign oil.
Is this right?
As an engineer and an engine guy I think diesels are great. However, I fear without a lot of changes the diesel will not catch on in the US. First of all, as noted earlier the fuel costs significantly more at the pump, especially in winter when it is competing with fuel oil for heating. Secondly , due to high injection pressures, short injection time and high compression ratios, the engines are inherently more expensive. To justify the cost you have to drive a lot of miles.(over the road trucks, locomotives, etc.)
Lastly and perhaps the most importantly in our self serve society the pumps are oily and smelly, even with the new fuel. Many people are not going to like the fueling experience. Many have tried and many have failed to sell diesels in the US. They use all kinds of reasons, mostly blaming the government, but the real reason is no one bought them.
Also this article states a 300% gain in 10 years.
With the base we have that is just a drop in the bucket.
“I have always understood that diesel fuel is a less refined product than gasoline, and that a gallon of diesel represents about 30% more crude oil than a gallon of gasoline.”
Roughly 46% of a barrel of crude becomes gasoline, 19% becomes diesel according to the Energy Information Administration.
Boy it sure is a good thing GM sold it’s shares of Isuzu and Toyota bought them. What would GM need with one of the world’s premiere diesel manufacturers? Oh…. wait… D’oh!
Does anyone know if these new clean diesels can run on biodiesel or have the vegetable oil conversion done to them?
A barrel of crude naturally distills into light (gasoline) medium (diesel,fuel oil, jet fuel etc.) and heavy (tar like materials)oils.
The natural amount does not satisfy demand distribution so heavy oils are rerefined(cracked) into lighter molecules to make gasoline. The attached link will explain it better than I can.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/analysis_publications/oil_market_basics/refining_text.htm
The particulate emissions problem is well known and serious players are solving it.
“With the release this week of its E320 Bluetec sedan, Mercedes-Benz becomes the first manufacturer to offer a diesel-powered car that complies with California’s strict air-quality standards.”
http://blog.wired.com/cars/2007/10/mercedes-debuts.html
“A 2009 model four-cylinder Honda will be first to meet U.S. Environmental Protection Agency and stricter California diesel exhaust rules, President Takeo Fukui told reporters Friday in Tochigi, Japan. The car has 30 percent better fuel economy than an equivalent gasoline model, he said.”
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601101&sid=aDvRKvRTymv4&refer=japan
“Kenichi Nagahiro, the company’s (Honda’s) chief engine designer and inventor of the celebrated VTEC engine, hated diesel engines, hated how noisy, smelly and dirty they were. When he was asked to design Honda’s first diesel he flatly refused – unless he was allowed to start completely from scratch, which resulted in one of the cleanest, most refined diesel engines of the time.”
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2006/05/23/honda-promises-clean-diesel-for-us/
VW and BMW have similar plans. GM is working on a home grown diesel for their light trucks. Toyota has contracted with diesel expert Isuzu for similar stuff.
So my next diesel vehicle won’t sound like my 1980 MB 300D? Damn it…I liked that sound.
(I hated being passed by kids on tuned mopeds, but I liked that sound…)
I still don’t understand why SUVs have no diesel option. One might be able to transplant a diesel into a SUV froma pickup truck donor vehicle, then you would have better economy with boat pulling balls to boot.
The answer that baabthesaab was looking for is that diesel fuel has a higher carbon content (17%), more crude oil goes into a gallon of diesel than gas. As a result, a diesel only reduces CO2 emissions by some 13% compared to a comparable gas engine.
How many miles per year would you have to drive a new Jeep Cherokee for the diesel version to pay off in fuel savings? Using today’s San Diego County average fuel prices and the purchase price differential of otherwise identical diesel and gas vehicles, it works out to 67,612.5 miles. And as far as CO2 emissions are concerned, the EPA reports 10.6 tons per year for the diesel Cherokee and 10.8 for the gas version, both 6 cylinder five speed automatics, less than a 2 percent differential.
$52,000 for an MB 320 Oil burner Sign Me Up!!
Paul Niedermeyer :
The answer that baabthesaab was looking for is that diesel fuel has a higher carbon content (17%), more crude oil goes into a gallon of diesel than gas.
I don’t think that’s true. The molecules in diesel are larger and have more carbon but when you distill a gallon of crude you always get relatively fixed quantities of gasoline and diesel (about 2 to 1); you can’t choose what you want. Diesel is about 17% denser and has about 17% more energy, other improvements are due to the engine running more efficiently.
But diesel can not (easily) be made from gasoline, so any marked change in diesel demand is going to crimp supply and spike prices, destroying any cost savings people expect from higher mpg.
Why can’t a manufacturer that wants to sell a diesel not quite up to Cali standards simply tell California to pound sand not sell diesels in California?
Put more politely, why do members of the Cali legislature make policy for the whole US on this issue?
‘Voting with your feet (and wheels)’ when it comes to certain states’ taxes and regs is as American as apple pie. Not to mention the positive PR you’d pick up from those who dislike left-coast greenies..
Hey, this left-coaster loves Diesel. I agree with Mr. HateTrees though that other states and the car makers should just tell California to buzz off.
I have owned a dozen cars in my life and half of them have been oil-burners. You guys can bitch and whine about smelly pumps and California morons, but some of us are already converted.
As for the extra cost of the engine, I think that is flawed logic. Economies of scale should erase that. I recall when I bought my TDI in 2002 VW couldn’t give Diesels away… I paid $17k all in for the Jetta. Now I see them selling for over $30k and they can’t keep them in stock. Amazing what a 200% increase in the cost of gas will do.
I also home-brew more than half the fuel I use and with my average of 50 MPG and almost-free fuel I’ve saved MORE than the purchase price of my car in fuel savings over the past five years and 120,000 miles compared to if I had bought a high-teens or low-twenties MPG car/truck.
I for one can not wait until more Diesel options are available for consumers in the US. I look with envy at the options available to Europeans, who can virtually ANY car with a Diesel engine. Even 2 seater, open topped sports cars!
–chuck
http://chuck.goolsbee.org
Chuck did you add the tank and whatever is needed to be able to run vegetable oil in your TDI?
I am helping my brother install the unit in his VW Bug TDI over Christmas and I was looking for any pointers or problems you may have run into.
I may end up following his lead in the near future if these new clean diesels will run on it without future problems and voiding the warranty right off the bat. I can’t wait for Subaru to hit the market with theirs in the next few years.
I miss my MB 300TD and the interesting people you meet fueling next to the trucks. I just washed my hands after filling up and it was no hastle.
Re the question about why they don’t offer diesels as an option for mainstream SUVs; I couldn’t agree more. It really should be an option here.
I rented a Toyota 4Runner in Costa Rica with a turbo 4 cylinder diesel and it ran very strong, got great mileage and was fun to drive. It passed slow buses on snakey mtn roads with aplomb, fully laden.
Hopefully, Americans en masse won’t fall into the trap of adopting diesels to any large extent. I spend quite a bit of time in Europe every year, and every city over there flat out stink, ‘clean’ diesels or not. Also, from what I hear over there, people are starting to complain about increased asthma suffering etc. from particulate emissions.
Some claim the latest and greatest particle filtered engines will finally be really ‘clean’ (…now where have I heard that before…), but already buyers are removing the filters (they increase consumption 5+% and decrease power), so that might not work to well either….
Diesel popularity in Europe is just one more example of blowback from a tax and subsidy market manipulation scheme gone bad, and should be put to rest with the rest of them.