If you were 20 when GM equipped the Cadillac Seville with a 105hp 5.7-liter LF9 diesel engine– a powerplant whose feeble power, clattering noise, belching smoke, mechanical unreliability and brand defilement made oil burners about as fashionable as AM stereo– you'd be 43 now. So… I guess there's still a mountain for the marketing men to climb. Kelley Blue Book confirms this suspicion. In a January survey of an unspecified number of in-market car buyers, nearly half said diesels are "dirty and noisy." What's worse, "shoppers increasingly believe that diesel-powered vehicles get poorer fuel mileage than conventional gasoline engines, and fewer consumers are seeing diesels as fuel-efficient." That's right, diesel's appeal is actually declining amongst car buyers. Meanwhile, hybrids are ascendant, with 61 percent of shoppers claiming an interest in buying a car with a gas – electric engine. "When asked about the premium they are willing to pay for a gas/electric hybrid over a traditional gasoline-powered version of the same vehicle, this month shoppers are willing to pay an average premium of $3,135, up from an average premium of $2,645 a month ago in December 2007." Can any automaker break the American diesel curse? If they do, it's going to be a long, tough job.
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And I’ll be one of the first in line. Assuming they make one I can afford (E-Class? Not so much) that is also legal for sale in NY and CA. So I believe that’ll be right around the corner. Again. Just one more corner. VW and Honda swear. Very soon now. Just hang on one more quarter…
Not to mention that an Audi R8 V12 diesel that would obliterate most supercars in its path may do wonders for diesel revival!
Having ridden in a friend’s smart 4four (forfour, fourfor?) with a diesel, I was very very impressed. It pulled hard pretty much throughout the rev-range even with 4 people in the car.
I’d definitely get in line.
At 47, I sincerely do not remember the GM diesel debacle. I do remember VW’s disappointing diesel vehicles in the early ’90s. They were indeed noisy and did not last anywhere near as long as their owners had been led to believe. For today, I wonder if if the average consumer relates diesels to commercial trucks or big pickups. If you have ever been in front of a diesel pickup in a long fast food drive-through, you will know what I am talking about.
I would file that one in the “meaningless surveys” folder.
If half the survey said diesels are “dirty and noisy”, then I’d say half the survey haven’t driven a good modern diesel.
As for the old GM diesels spoiling things. Not sure. A lot of us can remember Windows for Workgroups 3.11, but we wouldn’t hold that against Vista.
If you did a survey 15 years ago and asked people if they would like a gasoline/electric hybrid, half might have said: “No, because I don’t want to plug it in at night and it might go flat on the freeway”. Everyone has an opinion, but opinions based on ignorance aren’t worth much (I mean that in the nicest possible way, of course).
I suspect diesels won’t take off in the US, simply because fuel is relatively cheap so for most people there aren’t sufficient savings to justify the additional purchase cost. And even a good diesel car is seldom as good as the equivalent gasoline one.
“If you have ever been in front of a diesel pickup in a long fast food drive-through”
Front is nothing. Try being in back of one of those suckers.
There’s something everybody forgets when they say that modern diesels are “clean.”
The pump at the gas station is still as filthy as ever.
Last time I refueled a Diesel–a Mercedes BlueTec prototype I was driving for a week–I found the diesel pump over on an island of its own, surrounded by slick, oil-soaked concrete. I was like a pacer on ice just trying to stand still. The hose handle was oily, and I really should have brought along rubber gloves (which I suspect experienced Diesel fans actually use). The cockpit stank of oil for hours, both from the steering wheel I was handling and the oil that’d come aboard on the soles of my shoes.
Yeah, Diesels still are dirty, and only people who have actually refueled one are capable of discussing the concept.
My grandfather owned a chevy wagon with the diesel engine. the fuel injector pump went, 1500 dollars. The transmission went, 1500 dollars. After that the car went to the used car lot.
The biggest problem with the diesels back then was GM’s insistence on using gasoline parts to make a diesel with.
The ranger Diesel pickup trucks ford made were decent runners and got great mileage. But again reliability shows American manufacturers were not serious ENOUGH about building them. They were just showing they cared or trying to appear to be conscientious of the demand for them. There was even a diesel Ford Escort (I saw one on the road last year) that had the potential to get 50+ MPG.
The only useful mileage regulation I can see is to require SUVs and trucks over a certain weight to be diesel powered. Make the GVWT a low enough number to prevent cheating while still allowing a proper size engine to be used. Of course the Sierra club would resist this to the dying end.
So the American trend is towards hybrids and not diesels? Why didn’t anyone inform me of this, I would much rather have a nice diesel than a hybrid anyday. I guess I have to change my veiw points again to fit inline with what everyone else thinks.
Well, the type of people that kbb.com would survey are obviously idiots. I was reminded of how stupid people are when I was watching “Are you smarter than a 5th grader?” the other night. The 22 year old girl that was on there didn’t know what Budapest is, she thought it was in France. She had never heard of Hungary. I was stunned. But, those are the type of people that would think a gas engine gets better economy than a diesel. Anyway, the TSX diesel is supposed to arrive in 2009 to North America. http://www.egmcartech.com/2008/01/21/redesigned-acura-tsx-to-go-diesel-in-2009/
The survey is pretty worthless, IMO. The great unwashed sheeple only know what’s in front of them, and it ain’t diesel, except for stump-pulling trucks. They see plenty of Priora (the TTAC anointed term, I believe), so that’s what they answer. Let Honda introduce an Accord that gets ~50 MPG and see what the survey says. (Acura TSX – what are they thinking??)
I’ll be really interested to see what the final EPA numbers on the more affordable diesels from VW & Honda look like, with Nissan & crowd to follow. (I’m crossing my fingers that VW doesn’t screw up the TDI Jetta Sportwagen intro, but not holding my breath…)
Stephan Wilkinson :
January 29th, 2008 at 10:07 am
Yeah, Diesels still are dirty, and only people who have actually refueled one are capable of discussing the concept
Agreed – as a former 300D owner, I actually liked the car very much. Fueling it – not so much. And even as the new (future?) crop of diesels make my 300D seem tough to live with, how do we address the fueling issue? I mean – I know how – get fueling stations to clean (unlikely)…but how does it get that way? I understand larger fueling stations near interstates being so dirty – but why my little Texaco in the ‘burbs? I never, NEVER saw a clean diesel pump/area in 3 years of driving around South Florida.
The newer diesels are “clean” – emphasis on air quotes. The BEST ones barely meet the standards that an average gas engine easily surpasses – falling far short of the best non-hybrid gas engines on emissions.
I still get to drive behind a lot of diesels – some are trucks; others are Mercedes sedans. One thing in common: they all stink; and almost all are incredibly noisy.
Also, I’ve been getting dropped off in our Prius quite often lately at my company’s new suburban office building – and I’ve had two or three people come up to me and ask if it was an electric car, and comment about how quiet it was. Meanwhile, I’ve been doing test runs for our current project in a colleague’s car (a 5-ish year old Camry) and even that sounds noisy now, although nowhere near as bad as the diesel trucks that infest Texas.
The insistence around these parts (granted not as bad as AutoBlog or Popular Mechanics) that people don’t like diesels for irrational reasons is really just people not being willing to consider the fact that there are good, objective, reasons to dislike them. I don’t know why; it seems pretty damn obvious to me that the diesels on the road TODAY are still a ton noisier and ton dirtier than the gas engines we have today.
Yeah, Diesels still are dirty, and only people who have actually refueled one are capable of discussing the concept. – Stephan Wilkinson
Similar experience refueling a rented diesel cube van. I had difficulty finding a diesel filling station. My hands, shoes and the van floor smelled for hours. It’s not a pleasant odor. I had to wash my hands with mechanics soap degreaser. My shoes are still in the garage.
The far higher cost of routine diesel maintenance makes overall savings doubtful. Several years ago a VW diesel oil change was $117. It’s probably more now.
Funny, the Audi A4 I drove three weeks ago in Germany with the 2.0 TDi sure didn’t seem loud, clunky, smelly or slow…and I sure appreciated the fuel mileage I got out of it. Reading the posts already submitted, the ghost of diesels past seem to be floating around. Sure, my 1985 MB 300TD was loud, but I’d never compare it to a modern diesel. And I still argue that if more Amis experienced the actual torque and mileage increase in today’s diesels, they’d be more accepted here in America. Let Honda or Toyota put a diesel in a mainstream platform, and I’m there…
I was around when those terrible diesels hit the streets, but it’s never made me think that diesel was the problem…probably because I was also aware of some Germanic and Isuzu diesels from the same time period that were rock-solid and efficient (if slow and dirty).
I wonder where people are getting this information? I’ve yet to meet anyone who talks cars who thinks of diesels as less efficient than gas, on the contrary, most people I’m in contact with on a regular basis are anxious for more diesel options. Where are the people getting these (mis)conceptions from, and who did KBB poll? Rumpelstiltskin?
On the diesel downside, the price of entry and the current high price of diesel fuel has been the only negative I’m hearing (including my f-i-l who drives a Silverado with the Isuzu diesel and Allison 6).
Current fuel prices in the Chicago suburbs.
Regular: $2.90-$3.05
Premium: $3.17-$3.65
Diesel: $3.40-$3.70
Many states have cheaper gasoline than diesel fuel. Diesels make a lot of sense in those states. In Illinois you would need to go about 100,000 miles just to break even (mileage differs by make/model).
Could the higher cost in some states combined with lower availability be reducing demand?
If you polled the same random bunch of pedestrians again, they would likely not be able to tell you the difference in a diesel and a gas engine other than the fuel it uses.
Honda could make a mint on the deisel accord with just a little good marketing.
Face it America does NOT have a Diesel passanger car culture! Yes, there have always been the few diesel users out there but really they are still an anomoloy in 2008.
Everytime this discussion comes up I simple state that the availablity of diesel is not sufficiant in the USA. I cant buy it at the local Amoco, Exxon, Mobil, Getty, Sunoco. To get diesel in my neck of the woods I need to get on the interstate and travel down a exit to the service station on the highway, not very convenient.
Diesel pumps are all over my neighborhood. You will start seeing the pumps when you see more of the cars.
Again, there are enough diesel cars out there that most people are aware of them – at least in the dirty and noisy department, and YES, they are objectively dirtier and noisier. Handwaving this away does you no favors.
What is ironic here is that it appears that the rest of the industry in America is finally coming to the same conclusion that Toyota arrived at over ten years ago. Americans are looking for as seemless a solution as possible to achiving great fuel economy in our passanger cars.
We are not looking to change over to “truck fuel”. We simply want to pull up to the same pump in the same service station and pump out the same good ole liquid we have been using forever.
It is a given that electric drivetrains will become far more common in the near future regardless if gasoline or diesel is pumped into the ICE. So Auto Mechs will need to ramp up on this new technology. But will they be willing to learn to service diesel engines? Exactly how quickly will the Honda service departments be able to deal with the new diesel engines? Remember they ALL need to become skilled in technology for it to work for Honda. It will not serve their costumers well if they can get their diesel Accord serviced during a road trip because the dealer in that area does NOT do diesels.
Too bad…. I’m REALLY in the minority I guess. My grandad’s 1978 Olds Delta-88 diesel got my family hooked on diesels. (It’s still alive and running well, BTW.)
I graduated from a 80’s VW Rabbit diesel (the BEST student car!) to diesel trucks because I needed/wanted something larger and there wasn’t an affordable fullsize diesel sedan on the market.
I’m somewhat envious of the Europeans because they can/could get the Magnum wagon with a V6 turbodiesel.
If I was looking in that market today, I wouldn’t consider the newer VW TDIs though, if only because of their onerous oil requirements.
heh… I had a 1980 VW Rabbit Diesel in my student days too. The national limit was 55, and I was able to wring 55-60 MPG out of that gutless wonder when Diesel fuel was 60¢ a gallon (half the price of gasoline back in the early/mid 80s!) I could drive all day on less than 10 bucks. That car ran for 150,000 trouble-free miles and had me hooked on Diesels. I’ve been driving one ever since.
I’ve never had an issue finding fuel, and to be honest I don’t notice the smell or any “mess” around the pumps… of course I live in the Pacific Northwest where the constant rain keeps everything clean. I also make my own fuel at home and *that* is a dirty job, so perhaps my frame of reference is seriously shifted as well.
As for driving perceptions, it is all about frame of reference. When I drive a gasoline-powered car they seem to rev all the time and buzz like a bee in a beer can while cruising on the highway. When I drive my friend’s gasoline Jetta on the Interstate it sounds like a chainsaw, turning 3500 @ 70 MPH, while my TDI hums along at 2100 at the same speed… with a SMALLER engine. Go figure.
I’ll never buy another gasoline-powered car again… ever.
I’m insanely envious of our European friends who can pick any car in any trim (including 2-seat convertibles!) with a turbo-Diesel engine. If Audi or Alfa Romeo offered a TT or a Spider with a Diesel here in the US, I’d buy it tomorrow.
–chuck
http://chuck.goolsbee.org
chuckgoolsbee “I’ve been driving one ever since… and to be honest I don’t notice the smell..”
As a college student I worked at Busch Gardens in Tampa right next to the brewery. I remember my first day being repelled by the stench of the hops and the brewery. A few months later a guest (thats what we called customers) asked me and my co workers how we could stand the stench. We looked at each other and said what stench? Oh yeah I remember that when I first started but we honestly couldn’t smell it anymore. The problem is that non diesel drivers might smell what you no longer can detect.
Funny, new diesel passenger cars have not been sold in CA since 2003 and yet diesel pumps are everywhere, and not just truck stops. About 20-25 percent of Chevron, Mobil, Shell and 76 stations have them in the Los Angeles area. They are not oily or dirty, and the stations provide free disposable gloves. How would a diesel hybrid do in a poll?
Meanwhile, used Mercedes diesels from the 70’s and 80’s sell at a used-car premium to their gasoline counterparts. I think it’s only the American-brand diesels that have a stigma.
Sherman, I have never associated “stench” with “Brewery” but then again I’ve only been around small-scale craft breweries, or the mid-sized and missed Rainier Brewery along I-5 in Seattle. I loved that smell (and the view) going by that Pacific Northwest landmark. Then again, I’ve tasted Budweiser & Busch so I imagine “stench” might be an appropriate word.
As my can runs some mix of BioDiesel most of the time the smell is basically “french fries” and just about everyone who rides in my car remarks about the smell in a positive way. Go figure.
Sunnyvale you are right about the resale value of Diesels. I could sell my Jetta TDI today and probably get close to what I paid for it new. I won’t though, as finding a new Diesel is hard to do. Demand far exceeds supply. Peruse the “completed” section of ebay and check out the actual sales. Same goes for old Diesel-Benz’ from the 80s. They go for 2x what the gasoline ones sell for while having ZERO collectible value… just damn useful as a car! So much for Bob Lutz’ “no demand for Diesels” flawed logic. There is demand, just not for a Diesel from GM!
–chuck
http://chuck.goolsbee.org
Diesel = heavy (for a reliable plant).
Why?
Higher operating pressures required for combustion. So for a reliable, lasting engine you have up with a lower power-to-weight ratio than any gasoline powered equivalent (compare them).
End result?
1) A heavier, more expensive, sluggish, and inefficient machine (zero to 60 in 30 seconds, lower mpg than gasoline equivalent, but lots of torque, i.e. the big truck model)
OR
2) A equivalent-weight vehicle with a loud, thin-walled, lightweight piece of crap mill with no power that slowly blows itself apart after 50,000 miles (i.e. the earlier NA diesel-powered automobile model).
My experience with diesel is a 2005 Cummins in a 7,500 lb truck. My neighbor thinks it is quieter than his V10 (talk about MPG). My wife thinks the smell is a bit like propane. My previous gas truck got no better than 16 MPG, downhill. My current truck averages between 20 and 24 depending on type of driving. It also, at 600 ft lbs of twist, can pull our fifth wheel like it is not even there. Safeways in our area carring diesel as do many other stations in NV. Diesel costs 16% more than 87 gas and I get 25% better MPG. I am waiting for the diesel Honda Pilot scheduled to be on lots later this year. Hybrid cars have their own issues some of which have yet to surface, like what do you do when the battery life is over?
Toyota has mass produced hybrids now for 10 years. There are no hidden issues. There is a recycling program for the batteries, but there have been no reports about batteries failing or wearing out etc. Prius taxi cars have driven 300.000+ miles with the original hybrid components.
Diesel engine is no 7th wonder of the world. Modern gasoline turbo engines have the same characteristics than diesel engines – broad low end torque, which makes highway driving/passing and pulling heavy loads as easy as with diesel engines. you can use high gears and low rpm at higher highway speeds – no need to change gears down when passing other cars on highway etc.
Even the most modern diesels are noisier than gasoline engines. Especially when starting and even more during cold weather. And your hands will stink afterwards, even after washing. When you go to eat after tanking your diesel car its awful, the smell from your fingers…
In europe diesels are not so popular because everybody here is way smarter than in the U.S., but mainly because of the market hype, hype like in the U.S. with hybrids.
Oh, come on, I understand that there’s a commute driving in Cali, but you mean to tell me there are no soccer moms dashing hither and yon all day long while dad’s at the office? Trip rationalization would help cut their gas consumption.