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If there's anyone left who still thinks hybrid cars are just a fad, you need to rethink: the Prius was one of America's best-selling vehicles in 2007. That's vehicles, not just hybrids. Toyota sold 181,221 of the gas-electric hatchbacks. That's more than the entire Acura or Mercury lineups, and the model was nipping on all of Buick's heels. The Prius also outsold the Chevrolet Tahoe, the Toyota Tacoma, the Honda Odyssey, every Jeep, every Chrysler, every Dodge (except Ram) and every Ford but the F-series. No wonder Maximum Bob is trying to jump onto the hybrid bandwagon so fast, after pooh-poohing hybrids for so long. Only problem is that train left the station a long time ago, GM and Co. will have to run mighty fast to catch it.
76 Comments on “Prius Whoops Some Ass...”
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Frank—do you have any figures as to the avg. incentives associated with the Prius in ’07 ?
I think the “fad” comments reflect a combination of wishful thinking as well as a sour grapes attitude.
It is no wonder why GM is heading one way and Toyota another. GM denounced the hybrid as a fad while Toyota has publicly stated they plan on having hybrids available across their entire line
GM once again wrong and stubbornly refusing to admit they were wrong and then having to play catch up because of their own arrogant ways.
umterp85
Frank—do you have any figures as to the avg. incentives associated with the Prius in ‘07 ?
The only national incentive I found on Prius in ’07 was 0-5.9% APR financing for a couple of weeks in March. There may have been some regional programs I didn’t have information on.
Good piece of information here. I must admit I had pretty much considered it a nitch vehicle.
I had no idea that they’d sold that many. I always think of it answering a niche market… but 181,221 is a hell of a niche!
Has there been any recent mention of the Prius truly becoming its own brand of unique, hybrid cars in many body styles with avantgarde styling? As long as they were sold in existing Toyota dealerships, like Scion, I think it would be good.
Has the Civic hybrid kept up with the Prius?
At 32,575 units? I’d say that’s a negative, good buddy.
I think the “fad” comments reflect a combination of wishful thinking as well as a sour grapes attitude.
It is no wonder why GM is heading one way and Toyota another. GM denounced the hybrid as a fad while Toyota has publicly stated they plan on having hybrids available across their entire line
GM once again wrong and stubbornly refusing to admit they were wrong and then having to play catch up because of their own arrogant ways.
Right on! and it’s another reason why much of what Bobus Maximus says should be taken with a grain of salt. Regarding the fact that GM is going one way and Toyota another, it’s more like Toyota is staying on course according to plan after carefully testing the market while GM goes every direction at once making many U-turns and runs up dead ends like a chicken minus it’s head. What a way to run a car company.
Is it an inconvenient truth that the Prius sold better than the entire rest of the hybrid segment….combined? The other 12 (count ’em) vehicles in the segment couldn’t all together match Prius sales. Kudos to Toyota for building the hybrid that America wanted to buy, but one vehicle does not a segment make…
The only national campaign was the APR program and some lease deals. However, Toyota was giving dealer cash to move Priuses during the year. They don’t disclose how much that is – but dealer discounts around here were often $2+k or so depending on the model towards the end of the year, so I’d guess $1k in cash depending on region? I read somewhere a while back that transaction price had dropped like $1,300 per vehicle early in the year and almost $2,000 per vehicle as the tax incentives disappeared.
Probably half of that growth (40kish) is sales to some fleets and tied to incentives. That still leaves half of their growth just based on availability and marketing – which is good growth to have.
I hate the Prius. I believe it is a fad. It does not get that much better gas mileage than some of the gas examples from Honda and it will not get near the gas mileage of VW’s new 2.0 diesel. Then, once you factor the “inconvenient” battery issue (replacement/disposal), they really aren’t a “green” car at all. They are a car for snobby, arrogant, people who think they are better than everyone because they have an almighty hybrid.
I’ll stick with my FUN, V8, RWD sedan thank you.
P71_CrownVic, ditto. (Except I’ll stick with my fun, lightweight sport compact instead.) I wonder why we haven’t heard much about Prius disposal so far? It’s been out for quite a while …
Even if it had incentives… the rest of the market had even more.
I am not a green eco person. I am right wing and a Republican, yet the Prius speaks to me because I have cheap streak a mile wide in me. It speaks to the inner cheapskate in me.
Different types of cars and trucks appeal to different people. Just because you may hate the Prius does not mean others share your taste.
I guess if GM loses half of their market share again and Toyota doubles it then there will still be people claiming its all a fad.
If you run a car company you will succeed if you give the people what they want and you will fail if you only give them what you want.
At 32,575 units? I’d say that’s a negative, good buddy.
Reinforces my view that people don’t want a hybrid, they want a Prius.
CarShark: Yes, Toyota has plans for three Prius vehicles: the sedan, a wagon, and a smaller “city” car. It’s going to become a sub-brand like Scion.
B.C.: Disposal is not an issue: there is a recycling program for the batteries. And even after ten years, very few have yet to be replaced.
P_71 CrownVic: In numerous tests in Europe, the Prius and VW Golf diesel had near-identical mileage. But: with higher diesel fuel prices in the US, the Prius clearly wins on fuel costs.
I am right wing and a Republican, yet the Prius speaks to me because I have cheap streak a mile wide in me.
And there’s an older fellow sitting near me that listens to Limbaugh at lunch. He commutes in from the suburbs and drives to meetings all over, so he loves the high mpg of his Prius.
P71_CrownVic:
The Prius bests out the MT models of the Yaris, non-hybrid Civic and Fit ~16 MPG margin (46 mpg vs ~30) under the EPA’s new testing.
You can argue the Prius is much more expensive than those cars but so are VW diesels. The VW diesel engine nets similar MPG as the Prius but diesel fuel is not always easy to find and currently commands a premium over gasoline. The VW will also eat through far more brake pads compared to the Prius (or any hybrid with regenerative braking capability).
A car that gets great gas mileage, has nice features (HID, Nav, keyless operation, etc) and doesn’t require the owner to go out of his or her way to operate, appeals to quite a few people, regardless of the image the car projects.
As for me, I’m not interested in Prius ownership yet. I want to enjoy my loud sexual-identity-affirming sports car before I get too old. I don’t see the Prius as a threat to my way of life. If anything, it’s other people picking up my slack.
Purchasing a Prius here in Ontario there are a lot of Incentives from both Federal and Ontario Governments, 2K from Ottawa and I think the same from Ontario so it brings the cost down, its good to purchase this vehicle in the USA as Canadian prices on this and other Toyota products are a rip off but then you dont get the incentives either/
I think anyone here bashing the Prius should really go test drive one to see what the appeal is all about. Once you make peace with the feeling that you’re driving a Nintendo Wii, it isn’t that awful.
Jane Average doesn’t give a toss about performance (look how well the Corolla, Camry, and other milquetoast marvels sell year in and year out.)
The Prius is comfortable, quiet, fast enough, and can hold a remarkable amount of stuff for its size. And it gets 45+ mpg in the real world. That’s why it sells.
Other hybrids sold today simply don’t have this winning combination of attributes. If only Honda would bring back the wonderful boxy-wagon style Civic in hybrid form…
I’d be more impressed with the Prius and hybrids overall if it weren’t for the fact that Camry hybrid sales (along with most other hybrid sales) have pretty much tanked.
I can’t help but feel that the Prius’ success has more to do with how it looks (Looky, I’m a hybrid, I’m a hybird) than any real demand for hybrids.
P71_CrownVic: “It does not get that much better gas mileage than some of the gas examples from Honda…”
The Prius has a “city” rating that’s far (65%?) better than the Honda Civic or Fit and a “highway” rating that’s significantly better.
The hybrid might be a fad (although energy recapture is a really good idea and a 400-mile range, 5-minute charge battery seems to be nowhwere on teh horizon) but one can still make a lot of money off of a fad.
Also, if the future involves electric powertrains, Toyota is getting a lot of field experience with electric powertrain components.
I guess real people telling you why they like the Prius repeatedly as well as ever increasing sales isn’t enough. The Prius outsells every Ford product but the 150. Shouldn’t that convince the naysayers.
I guess it will literally take GM and Ford actually going out of business and almost everything that runs on gas being a hybrid for some of you to believe that hybrids are not a fad and it goes far far beyond any environmental green thing. Oh well stick around.
Its interesting that the Prius did so well compared to the other hybrids on the market. I think Toyota really nailed it when they realized that it was important for a hybrid to look different as well as drive different.
The other hybrids share their outward appearance with their non-hybrid cousins. Only the Prius capitalizes on the need of many in its target market to show off their supposedly “green” credentials. To those folks, the Prius is the anti-status symbol status symbol.
I think the Prius sells so well partly because nothing else comes close, in terms of high gas mileage, and space. If high gas mileage is your first priority, and you want a family-sized car, the Prius is the obvious choice. If you identify as an environmentalist, and you want to wear your identity on the road, it’s also the only game in town. Finally, the car is so damn bombproof, what with taxis going 300,000 miles reliably.
If there were five true competitors, and collectively they were only selling 181k a year, that would not be particularly impressive.
In this light, the environmentalist in me wishes the car would have higher sales. But I’m not about to buy one. The car nut in me loves taking my internal combustion straight up.
The other hybrids share their outward appearance with their non-hybrid cousins. Only the Prius capitalizes on the need of many in its target market to show off their supposedly “green” credentials. To those folks, the Prius is the anti-status symbol status symbol.
This is true, but it only became true after the Prius became a cultural phenomenon.
Remember that the first-gen Prius sold in the US was far from being a hit. It was too small, felt like a tin can, etc. It was too impractical even for people who really wanted to be green.
With the second generation, Toyota accepted the market’s feedback (imagine that!) that people wanted great mileage PLUS the amenities and space of a normal compact car. The gen-2 Prius requires no real sacrifice from its owners.
The other hybrids being sold today all miss the mark in one way or another:
* The Camry and Accord hybrids emphasized higher HP/performance, which has gone over like a fart in church. 30mpg from a hybrid in a car with the interior room of the Prius is not appealing to either greens or skinflints.
* The Civic is/was much less practical than the Prius due to the lack of a hatch, and the battery pack prevents the rear seats from folding (at least it did a couple of years ago, i’m not sure if they newer ones have that issue.)
* GM’s experiments with “mild” hybrids add almost nothing except complexity and expense. Also, sticking their hybrid powerplants into 6,000lb-behemoth trucks instead of combating the weight problem that causes the miserable mileage in the first place seems like the wrong tack.
* Ford the same way — we know they can put together a decent hybrid, the Escape isn’t too bad. Why not try to build a hybrid with a smaller powerplant & stuff it into a C-Max? Import it to the US. Price it at Prius-levels. Maybe they’d actually make money on a small car for once…
I think rollingwreck has it right.
The Prius hit the sweet spot. And rather than saying “looky its a hybrid”, I think the distinctive appearance just helps make the owner feel special everytime the car is driven. Its a personal fulfillment thing, not a show off thing. I commute in a 1969 Mercedes, and I could care less what other people think of it – but I love sitting down in it, looking at the old school dash and old school fender lines. It makes me feel special and theres nothing Camcord about it. I could see how a Prius could invoke a similar sensation.
Frank: Thanks for the incentives info. I recall at one point that Toyota had put a little more on the hood for the Prius when some of the tax break stuff had hit the max. Kind of a moot point becuase this car has been such a huge success.
Your piece provokes a good question regarding Toyota in the US.
How much has the Prius helped Toyota’s overall accleration in the US market ?
I think the answer is well beyond the absolute volume it delivers….the PR has been huge.
Said another way—while Toyota would still be a big success—I think it would be much less so especially given the fact that other carmakers have met and in some cases surpassed the Corolla and Camry.
I think the Prius’s looks are part of its success, but for another reason: the looks are the signs of a car designed with efficiency as the first priority. The shape is almost ideal to cheat the wind. The smallish wheels reduce rotational inertia. If it weren’t a hybrid, it’d still get fantastic gas mileage. Other hybrids don’t get mileage nearly as good (and thusly don’t sell as well) simply because they’re just normal cars with hybrid systems in them.
David Holzman-“I think the Prius sells so well partly because nothing else comes close, in terms of high gas mileage, and space. If high gas mileage is your first priority, and you want a family-sized car, the Prius is the obvious choice. If you identify as an environmentalist, and you want to wear your identity on the road, it’s also the only game in town. Finally, the car is so damn bombproof, what with taxis going 300,000 miles reliably.”
rollingwreck-“The other hybrids being sold today all miss the mark in one way or another:”
Precisely!
Naysayers like to try to pretend the Prius is a compact based on outside dimensions. Sit down sometime and compare interior specs with the rest of the midsizers, it’s a little narrow (so are the G6 and New ‘Bu) but it pretty midpack overall.
Gee…a midsize car, priced like a midsize car, drives like an ordinary car (this is a GOOD thing, we enthusiasts should learn to face that we are, demographically and possibly in other ways, freaks), has great reliability and adds 20 MPG over it’s segment in the bargain.
I wonder why it sells?
I doubt most people care about the Image Thing.
This is an excellent car that fills it’s mission better than most vehicles do theirs, of course it sells.
BTW- the midyear stats showed fleet sales to be insignificant, if you take away the Impalas 55% fleet the Prius may outsell it.
Kudos to Toyota for a job well done.
I also think rollingwreck has it right.
Geez, I’m getting closer and closer to having to replace, and even you naysayers are pushing me into a Prius. I don’t drive in the city, but I need a car for my long weekend drives. So I’ve been thinking – Why squeeze into a Yaris or Fit if I can get the same highway mileage in a Corolla or better highway mileage in a Prius or Civic?
A Camry Hybrid is a hard sell sitting next to the Prius in the same dealership. You only need to open the trunk and see why. It is too small. The next issue is the gas mileage savings does not over come the extra cost over a regular 4cyl. Camry.
The Camry Hybrid is also only available in loaded and “top of the line”. It is a $30,000 car!
Now if Toyota had the good sense to make a Camry Hybrid Wagon……………
whatdoiknow1: “Now if Toyota had the good sense to make a Camry Hybrid Wagon…”
Or just change the powertrain in the Highlander hybrid to use their modified 2.4L I4, instead of a V6. It wouldn’t get super highway mileage but it would probably do quite well around town.
Very few bashers this time, so I agree with a lot that was previously said. Anytime I see people denigrate prius buyers as showboating greenies I really wonder what their problem is.
The Prius outsells everything hybrid for a simple reason, it is the most efficient car on the road. Think about that. A practical everyday usable midsize hatchback that delivers the best fuel economy burning plain old regular gas. No fuss, no muss.
And for the people going on about VW diesels getting better mileage. Where could you buy them in 2007? I think they had a few leftover ones that don’t have particle filters. Yes they got good mileage, but they still don’t beat the Prius (you want real world look at Edmunds long term tests, the prius easily beat a VW diesel over a year of being beat up by Edmunds drivers), diesel fuel is less available and more smelly and around here is more expensive. I stick with better mileage from cleaner, cheaper, more available, regular gas.
The only thing I don’t like about the Prius, is I really like to shift my own gears. If it had a 5-speed it might be my next car. I really hope that new Honda CR-Z gets prius like mileage and lets you shift your own.
Between the Prius, Yaris and Corolla, you have three highly popular vehicles that offer customers a seemingly pain-free, long term economical proposition. That’s obvious.
What’s not so obvious is that these frugal and conservative folks are as much a guiding force to Toyota’s success as the product itself. In fact they’re the enduring legacy for used car buyers that will eventually buy new.
I believe that in the last 20+ years, Toyota has increasingly focused on the ‘conservative and frugal’ driver. This has a lot of benefits that go far beyond the actual cars themselves. For example, you typically have lower insurance costs due in part to these conservative drivers, less stress on the vehicles (on average), better ‘real world’ mileage (on average), more visits to Toyota dealerships that use OEM parts (thereby making them run better as they age), more diligent maintenance regiments due to these dealer visits, and less wear and tear.
We have a saying in my neck of the woods when it comes to looking at used cars, “It’s not the car that’s important. It’s the driver.” The untold legacy of Toyota’s vehicles is that they primarily appeal to those customers that would abuse them the least. A page taken right out of the classic Volvo playbook. When folks today ogle over the possibility of buying a used Toyota, it’s not so much the car that is making the difference these days…. it’s the drivers.
for everyone saying “its successful because of how it looks”..would you buy a Ferrari if it looked like an 2nd Gen xB but still performed like a F430? its all about the look.
would you buy a Ferrari if it looked like an 2nd Gen xB but still performed like a F430?
If it was priced like the xB, yes yes yes.
I think I am going to try and take a ride in a Prius this weekend. I have been toying with the idea of replacing the POS Caddy with one(in your face GM). The milage is great but it’s mostly because they last such a long time with minimal maintenance, and the build quality is supposed to be superb. Lets see if I crash into a pole because it puts me to sleep. I don’t know if I could get past the fact I can’t shift my own gears, that would make it at least a little more fun.
Real-world driving, the Prius is not so hot. I have driven Crown Vics and have gotten 30 MPG on the highway…but the EPA says I should have only gotten 23 MPG.
The Prius sells because there a lot of “sheeple” out there that think that Toyota is a gift by God himself and that they are SOOOOOOOO much better than anything else out there. If it sold because it was simply a hybrid, then sales of the Civic, Accord, Escape, etc, should have been higher. Toyota has created this convenient mis-conception that their cars are better…and they simply are not…just look at the Tundra.
Its interesting that the Prius did so well compared to the other hybrids on the market. I think Toyota really nailed it when they realized that it was important for a hybrid to look different as well as drive different.
If looks was all it took, why didn’t the Insight sell this well?
Toyota, moving forward and leaving everyone behind!
The people I feel for is Honda. Honda do have very good green credentials and a damn good hybrid car. I just wonder if they marketed it right?
But to all the people who talk about diesels check this out.
A VW Golf plus 1.9 SE TDI DSG emits 159gm of CO2/km and does 36.7mpg in urban conditions and 55.4mpg in highway conditions.
A Toyota Auris 1.6 VVT-i T-Spirit MMT petrol engine emits 161gm of CO2/km and 33.2mpg in urband conditions and 47.9mpg in highway conditions.
There’s not really much in it and bear in mind that the VW is £2735 more expensive. Diesels still have a way to go. Now if someone brought out a diesel hybrid, that would be fun!
The Prius sells because there a lot of “sheeple” out there that think that Toyota is a gift by God himself and that they are SOOOOOOOO much better than anything else out there.
I don’t know if it is a divine intervention or not, but my daily driver just won’t die. Toyota Corolla, 4wd wagon, 17 years old, 200k, 30mpg and starts reliably every morning even when it is more than 40below.
Updated version of that car would be perfect choice for me, didn’t I hear rumors about a Prius wagon on the way?
My only concern would be about how well the Prius does in extreme cold.
Does anybody know how well it handles -40 for weeks at the time?
Real-world driving, the Prius is not so hot.
This is 100% untrue. I’ve had the opportunity to drive two different Priuses (Prii?) , one for about 1500 miles, the other for 500 miles (rental).
Over mixed conditions (ie, part city, part PCH, part suburbia, part mountains around big sur), the first car returned 45MPG mixed, the second one 44. This is with two adults, A/C going, and a trunk full of luggage for a 2-week trip.
I cannot think of another midsized car that comes anywhere close to the efficiency of the Prius in real-world conditions.
That the car is popular is no big surprise, and it’s not because of some sort of ‘green conspiracy’… it just works better for ‘normal’ folk who don’t care about cornering or 1/4 miles.
Kudos to Toyota for nailing it. As a stockholder I’m happy to hear that sales number. It doesn’t surprise me because I swear I’ve seen 50k of the 181k of them myself. They are like mushrooms around here… popping up everywhere. The Big 2.5 will be the Dead 0.0 soon due to their complete inability to move to market stuff people want. The number of trucks they produce boggles my mind. Perhaps they’ll just become this century’s International Harvester… niche truck makers, while the rest of us just buy cars from the Japanese, the Koreans, and the Germans.
Wait a minute, that has already happened!
Oh well, I’m not a hybrid driver. I climbed onto the Diesel (power)train back in the 1980s and have never climbed off. I can’t wait for the day when I have options in the Diesel power market. I imagine that day is soon, and I also imagine that gasoline-hybrid options will also continue to grow.
So long as the hare-brained E85 lunacy dies the death it deserves, but I digress.
–chuck
http://chuck.goolsbee.org
The Toyota Hybrid Synergy Drive has a SILENT START — most other hybrids on the market do not. Customers want that silent start – they love pressing the POWER button, hearing nothing, pressing down the accelerator and having the car move.
The gasoline engine then kicks in quietly around 35mph.
Other hybrids have the gas engine initiating at start-up, and that’s just not as magical to people. Honda discovered that to their pain.
In market studies, this silent start has been decisive.
As to incentives for Prius. Why? There are months long waiting lists for them. (5-6 months in certain European countries.)
Ok, so I’m weird.I use linux as a desktop OS & I don’t see value in the prius except for possibly moving people out of SUV’s.
I am also not interested in the prius due to their being no manual option. I also love to drive and have test driven a prius and it was horrible. The suspension was horrible. The car was eerily quiet. It was just too weird. Last I checked the prius’s around here were in the mid 20k’s which is not exactly cheap compared to other options.
The last “long” trip I took in the US (yeah I know most people drive more than me) was about 190 miles. I did it on my “little” (600cc) sport bike, flogged it and got 40-45mpg at 75-85mph. I typically wear a small backpack (holds 2 days of clothes) + body armor. The bike NEW cost $8k and the insurance is $400/year in Chicago for full coverage with a $250 deductible. If that is too pricey, you can get a 250cc for $3500 new, get 60-80mpg and have easier parking, cheaper insurance and better mileage than the prius, assuming the danger of riding a motorcycle is acceptable to you, I guess.
For traveling:
I typically take no more than 3 weeks of vacation per year and 2 weeks is a flight to brazil to see the in-laws. I have a beater neon for the winter that has 160k on the clock and when I went to Milwaukee averaged 39mpg. Insurance is $75/month. What use is a prius to me? Someone sell me on it…..I don’t get it.
There are so many more economical options that don’t cost mid $20k’s, don’t have a battery that has to be replaced in 5-10 years, etc that I can’t imagine buying one.
Yes it gets much better mileage in the city but that is what we have trains/busses/bicycles for. All cheaper than a prius + insurance. I was under the impression priuses (prii ?) are marketed towards city folk stuck in gridlock…..no gas while using the battery right?
So someone explain this to me. The only thing I can think of is people owning only one vehicle & dragging their family everywhere. Other than that, it doesn’t make alot of sense.
It’s probably not a coincidence that the Prius is the only stand-alone hybrid model. If you’re driving, for instance, a Saturn Vue Green Line, it’s not immediately obvious that you’re trying to save the planet. I think part of why the Prius is so popular over the Civic hybrid, which gets similar mileage, is that it’s obviously a hybrid, with all its planet-saving imagery. I’m proud to own a 2006 Prius that can go 450 miles on a 9 gallon fill-up without even trying
I’m a VW TDI driver. I’ll happily champion its virtues. But if you must have an automatic transmission, I’ll admit the Prius is a better choice.
Our TDI, optioned to my wife’s taste, gets 10 mpg less than the average TDI with a manual transmission. Its 35 mpg everyday average falls short of reported Prius effiency. But if you want to shift your own gears (and I do), better go Diesel. I don’t expect to see a manual transmission in any hybrid to come. If a car is automatically shuttling power between an electric motor and an engine, it’s certainly smart (and complicated) enough to choose its own cogs. Also, hybrid engineers presumably would want to eliminate any chance for over-revving and lugging the engine(s) that might result from a poorly trained driver at the wheel.
So someone explain this to me. The only thing I can think of is people owning only one vehicle & dragging their family everywhere. Other than that, it doesn’t make alot of sense.
You aren’t the typical consumer. I agree with you, owning a $1000 beater (assuming it doesn’t blow up every 10 seconds and you have some degree of technical aptitude) is probably going to be more cost-effective than buying a new Prius. New cars in general are terrible investments.
But if you ARE going to buy new, look at it this way:
Toyota claims that at this point the price premium for their Hybrid Synergy Drive is now about $2000 to the consumer. The more of these they crank out, the smaller the premium will become (It will probably less than $1000 in 5 years at the rate Toyota is going.)
Even at $2000, with gas projected to cross $4.00 a gallon in the not-too-distant future, you make your money back after consuming 500 fewer gallons. In my observation, the Prius gets about 15 MPG better overall than its nearest, non-hybrid competitor (i have never been able to do better than 30MPG mixed with another compact car.)
Lets say a typical consumer keeps their car for 5 years at 15000 miles a year (75000 miles)
your 30MPG car will use 2500 gallons of gas; the 45MPG prius will use 1666 gallons, a savings of 2500-1666 = 834 gallons (about $3333 at $4.00/gallon gas).
If Toyota can get the price premium down to $1000, the difference will be made up in under two years. And with every additional car that rolls off the line, their marginal cost will keep going down. This is one reason why the Big 2.8’s paralysis is particularly frustrating…. if they don’t act soon, they will be at a permanent cost disadvantage.
Also remember that in the US, we have relatively CHEAP gas. When I was in Canada, I heard a report that they are expecting to pay $1.50/L at the pump in 2008. Europe is similarly nasty. I would be shocked if the majority of their fleet wasn’t hybrid gas-electric or diesel-electric within the next decade.
t-truck:
I don’t know if it is a divine intervention or not, but my daily driver just won’t die. Toyota Corolla, 4wd wagon, 17 years old, 200k, 30mpg and starts reliably every morning even when it is more than 40below.
Yep…my Crown Vic will do that…after doing 100K of severe police use.
The only thing I don’t like about the Prius, is I really like to shift my own gears. If it had a 5-speed it might be my next car. – Bytor
I don’t know if I could get past the fact I can’t shift my own gears, that would make it at least a little more fun. – RedBarchetta
I don’t believe we will ever see a MT hybrid because, well, we aren’t as smart as those cog swapping computers, and, fun is exactly what hybrids (at least those skewed towards saving fuel) are NOT about.
That’s what I was trying to say, CT. But has there ever been a hybrid with a manual transmission?
I had a 2004 Prius that I bought as soon as I could get my hands on one (December ’03).
It really was a good deal for the money, given my buying priorities. I wanted a brand new car with room for four in comfort. I wanted xenon headlamps, smart entry, and good gas mileage. The sticker on my Prius equipped as such was something like $23,500. It’s not hard to hit that price in a basic Accord or Camry!
The Prius performed flawlessly for 66,000 miles over 2.5 years and averaged 48MPG while I had it. The worst tank I ever managed was with the cruise set at 90 MPH coming home to LA from San Francisco, three people in the car, facing a huge headwind the entire time. That tank was 37 MPG, and it was the only one I ever got below 40.
And while I’m sure it’s technically possible to get 30 MPG in a Crown Vic, I work for the government and we have many of the beasts; our CVs average in the mid-teens in city driving. If one is capable of wringing 30 MPG out of a V8 American sled, then surely such an individual would be able to get nearly 60 MPG out of the Prius. Even if a driver getting 30 MPG out of a Crown Vic “only” got 45 out of a Prius, it’s still a 50% improvement in fuel economy!
The Prius is cheaper than a Jetta TDI, with more space and better fuel economy, both real world and sticker. The Prius has a longer warranty, lower emissions, and a lot more cargo and passenger space. It’s priced in line with or below comparably-equipped cars in its class.
Certainly no mystery as to why it’s sold so well, especially given the Prius’ stellar reliability ratings.
Ultimately I sold my Prius (for $19,000) to get my Miata. I figured fuel prices were on an endless rise and this moment in time was my last chance to have a (relatively) thirsty sports car. When the lease is up on the Mazda, another Prius will certainly be on the short list for replacement options.
Wheatridger, the 2000-2006 Honda Insight and the 2003-2005 Honda Civic Hybrids were available with a manual transmission.
Unfortunately, the best way to get mileage out of them was to lug the engines with the boost from the battery taking up slack. Getting into the habit of doing this prematurely wears out the battery pack and is why current mild hybrids are only available with automatics: it allows the computer far more control over battery charge/discharge, so that the packs last the life of the car.
Full hybrids from Toyota and Ford don’t have a real transmission, they have a fixed power split device and as such there is no possible way to change “gears.”
The new GM/BMW/Chrysler “two-mode” systems have four fixed ratios in addition to the fake CVT employed by Toyota and Ford, but by their nature and design, also could not be designed with manual cog-swappers.
It amazes me that anyone can “hate” the Prius and its drivers, labeling them as “snobby”, etc. when they are just making an economically and environmentally sound purchasing decision.
Although, demographically speaking Prius drivers are far more educated and affluent than the typical car buyer so maybe you are just mad they are successful.
Beats me. My mom drives one and she’s an amazing (and extremely humble, fyi) person. Guess you’ll never have the pleasure of knowing her.
My mom drives one and she’s an amazing (and extremely humble, fyi) person. Guess you’ll never have the pleasure of knowing her.
What’s she look like?
Just askin’
“I think part of why the Prius is so popular over the Civic hybrid, which gets similar mileage, is that it’s obviously a hybrid, with all its planet-saving imagery.”
That may be part of it, but the Civic Hybrid suffers from the same issue as the Insight: lack of practicality. Its trunk is smaller than that of a convertible Corvette and the rear seatbacks are welded in place. Even transporting a single bicycle is a hassle.
Captain Tungsten: I don’t believe we will ever see a MT hybrid because, well, we aren’t as smart as those cog swapping computers, and, fun is exactly what hybrids (at least those skewed towards saving fuel) are NOT about.
The Honda Insight is manual trans.
Now if someone brought out a diesel hybrid, that would be fun!
There is a diesel premium and a hybrid premium, so the two together would drag the capital cost still further upwards. Furthermore, I have heard the diesel doesn’t work as well in a hybrid system as a petrol engine, but I can’t remember why. Having said that, I think there are a bunch of diesel hybrids in various states of development in Europe.
One thing to remember: as far as greenhouse emissions go, diesels don’t reduce emissions relative to petrol as the fuel mileage figures would suggest, because diesel fuel GH emissions are higher per gallon. And GH emissions are the most important environmental reason to seek better fuel mileage.
Robstar I also commute on a motorcycle 90% of the time. A 500cc 27 y/o single that gets 50-60 mpg and is a ton of fun to ride at the same time. But it’s sort of hard to put my wife, 6 y/o daughter and soon to be newborn on it, I don’t live in India where that’s popular. The bike is sort of a pain on those days we have to trade the kid, she sure isn’t going to ride off pregnant while I take her car. The Prius or a reliable beater would make sense at those times, except for the safety of an old car.
I do wish more people would commute to work on a motorcycle or scooter, especially since most people just drive themselves. Better mileage, take up less space on the road and for parking, and forces you to pay attention, especially when it’s wet out like it was today. But that wont happen since everyone thinks they have to have a giant car or SUV to be safe rather than learn to drive defensively.
About the M/T I was thinking more like a DSG, but the engineering involved for this niche probably doesn’t make sense. Since most people barely know how to drive a M/T let alone way to buy one now a days.
The planetary gear in the Toyota hybrids (incl. Lexus) provides for stepless acceleration, so you don’t really need to shift – and in fact shouldn’t, if the goal is to maximize energy efficiency.
The trick with the Hybrid Synergy Drive is the sophisticated energy management algorithm Toyota has developed, which handles the interchange between electric and gas power. Ford tried to create its own algorithms, but never got to where the output was energy efficient, which is why they are using Toyota’s.
Yes the Pundits have said that the price of Gas(Petrol) will be Can. $1.50 per litre by Summer 2008, so expect the USA to be $5.00 per gallon eh!
Thsi from Markets that are dominated by bit players, Canada is not short of Petrol products, we are second after the Mid East in producing Oil ie Tar-Sands of Alberta.
I thought all the comments on the Prius were right on the money too
Re: diesel hybrids
Several diesel hybrid concept cars have been produced in Europe, but most of the diesel hybrid work in the United States is related to heavy applications where diesels are common in this country – diesel hybrid trucks, buses, and railway locomotives have been in production for several years.
The lack of diesel hybrid cars in Europe is probably related to the extra cost, while the absence of diesel hybrid cars in the US is probably related to the absence of diesel cars in general here. But when they arrive…diesel Prius, anybody?
As a Prius driver, I am so sick of people complaining that we are all smug, arrogant jerks. I bought the car because it’s good on gas, reliable, and holds its value. My 2006 already has 40,000 miles, and I have no problems to report (knock on wood.) Since when is it arrogant to buy a recommended car? Wouldn’t it be more arrogant to buy a non-recommended car that isn’t practical just to make a statement? So, some people say it’s a “smug” car. I’d rather have a “smug” car than an out of date, lousy, piece of crap Ford that gets 15 mpg city miles and has managed to drag down an entire brand image with its sloppyness.
I bought the car because it’s good on gas, reliable, and holds its value.
The stereotype is annoying and misplaced. The Prius is a brilliant car. It just isn’t brilliant in the areas that many typical TTAC readers value (power,handling,looks).
The other issue that people frequently get mixed up about is the class of car that the Prius is in. I see commenters who haven’t been inside one compare it to smaller, lower-rent cars just b/c it is a fuel miser. But in reality, the interior materials are of high quality, soft to the touch. And a lot of the switchgear came from the Lexus ES300. Not the Corolla or Yaris.
Toyota really nailed the execution of this second generation, and they are being justly rewarded. Though sometimes I wonder if they are actually taking a loss on these cars just to establish the brand & get the scale they need to reduce the cost of the hybrid powertrain.
The 2009 is suppposedly going to be a few hundred pounds lighter and use Li-Ion batteries. Allegedly with an 75-80MPG max.
One can only imagine the Rolaids being passed around the board room at the big 2.8….
One thing we all forget is that any Hybrid Car including Prius is that you as the owner have to go back to the Dealer for all the service on this type of Car, no more independent shops for this Car and then the dealer can charge what he wants to make a large profit, something to think about eh!
One thing we all forget is that any Hybrid Car including Prius is that you as the owner have to go back to the Dealer for all the service
I’m not sure that this is the case; Click & Clack fielded a question about that issue; they claimed that they could perform all routine service on the car & would feel comfortable working on any system except the powertrain.
I suppose in the future more independents will be forced to become expert in the synergy drive.
The best mileage hybrid every made let you shift your own gears. That was the manual transmission Honda Insight.
I have some small hope that the new Honda CR-Z will also have a manual transmission available along with similar amazing gas mileage.
The Prius might not be everyone’s cup of tea when it comes to many of the performance parameters TTAC readers value but in and of itself it is an excellent vehicle. Why do some hate it and even worse hate those that drive them? Well there are many reasons possible but I think one of them is this. The Prius is a prime example of outstanding engineering and execution. It has exceeded it’s maker’s expectation and it has become a symbol of excellence in many areas and shows no sign of stopping. It’s well built, extremely reliable, durable, it more than delivers what it promised and is a prime example of a disciplined car company bringing new ideas, engineering, quality together in an attractive package. It symbolizes what Toyota is and what the 2.8 are not. It’s hated because in one vehicle there is an expression of superiority and a ‘getting it done right first time’ attitude. In this it shines a big light for Toyota and exposes the ineptitude, lack of direction, sheer incompetence, and stupidity that characterizes the 2.8 especially General Motors. The 2.8 fanboys (as opposed to those who are genuine fans of the 2.8’s products) know this instinctively and can sense, perhaps sub-conscientiously it’s clear superiority over their chosen God! That’s why they hate it, that’s why they make up the nonsense that only arrogant people buy them. They need anything, anything that they can use to attack the whole Prius gig. When GM executives are contradicting each other and making big boasts about the Volt, advertising it even though it does not yet exist, saying it will be on the road by easter and er! no it won’t and taking cheap shots at Toyota because they dared to show them up, ToMoCo is quietly developing a better Prius, a better powertrain and a better product overall that people will line up to buy and rave about while GM will hold on to it’s ‘also ran’ status. I don’t own a Prius but I would love to have one and it has nothing to do with making a statement or even it’s efficiency but because in the Prius I see an engineering marvel, something that works so well and something that uses fascinating technology and I would like a piece of that action. Maybe someday!
Americans bought more Toyota Prius hybrid gas-electric hatchbacks last year than Ford Explorer sport-utility vehicles, the top-selling SUV for more than a decade.
The change of fortune, buried in U.S. vehicle-sales data for 2007 and unthinkable a few years ago, will find an echo at this year’s Detroit auto show, which starts Sunday.
While Americans’ love for powerful gas guzzlers remains strong, a slowing economy and high gasoline prices are forcing buyers to lower their sights.
While Prius sales soared 69% last year, demand for the Explorer was less than a third of its 2000 peak.
Many Americans are replacing truck-based SUVs with crossover vehicles, which are built like cars, thus offering a smoother ride and better fuel efficiency.
Toyota Motor (TM, news, msgs) began selling the Prius in North America in 2000, the same year Explorer sales reached a record 445,000 units for Ford Motor (F, news, msgs).
“It’s a combination of an ascending star and a falling star,” says George Magliano, director of automotive industry analysis at consultant Global Insight.
Regarding the Prius’ frequent framing as a “poser car…”
My favorite example of pundits taking this angle was the CNW study that found that over half of Prius buyers cited “image” and the “statement” it made among their top reasons for buying the vehicle.
Shock horror! Non-enthusiasts buying a motor vehicle because they like its looks and what it says about them!
Pray tell, which groups of buyers (or vehicles) do such accusations not apply to?
The Prius also looks the way it does becuase it was designed from the ground up to be a functional, high mileage vehicle. If some people consider that some sort of hubris on the part of the owners, or Toyota, then they’re the ones with the problem.
I wish the big 2.5 luck, but a viable competitor that’s designed from git-go as a hybrid is the only real competition to the Prius; the “hybrid-upgrades” they presently offer are a good start, but they gotta go “all the way” soon.
As a Prius driver, I am so sick of people complaining that we are all smug, arrogant jerks. I bought the car because it’s good on gas, reliable, and holds its value. My 2006 already has 40,000 miles, and I have no problems to report (knock on wood.) Since when is it arrogant to buy a recommended car? Wouldn’t it be more arrogant to buy a non-recommended car that isn’t practical just to make a statement? So, some people say it’s a “smug” car. I’d rather have a “smug” car than an out of date, lousy, piece of crap Ford that gets 15 mpg city miles and has managed to drag down an entire brand image with its sloppyness.
As a SUV driver, I’m sick of people complaining that we’re all arrogant, thoughtless jerks who drive them because we can, or that we don’t give two hoots about the environment or energy conservation, or must be making up for some kind of physiological shortcoming.
I have to live with people’s preconceived notions about me because of what I drive, now so do you.
I have to live with people’s preconceived notions about me because of what I drive, now so do you.
Two wrongs make a right. Nice…
Pretty much sums up the problem. People who judge people based on their choice of vehicle is pretty stupid and weird.
In my area,which is an area of northern California which tends to start trends, Prius is the #1 seller among cars. Even ahead of camry and accord.