General Motors has canceled development of it's new Ultra V8, originally set for production at its Tonawanda engine plant. You hurt your what? The little-known Ultra V8 was the engine slated to replace the aging but iconic Northstar V8. Nestling in the noses of big Caddies and the Buick Lucerne, the Northstar has become something of a red-headed step-child: a DOHC humbly going about its business while the small block, pushrod LS3 and LS7 engines screamed for– and got– all the attention. As the Cadillac CTS-V has done right well with the LS6 V8, the General may be itching to try out the LS in other models. While the idea of a pushrod in a luxury car isn't new (think Bentley Arnage), DOHCs are generally considered a better fit for [alleged] luxury brands like Caddy and Buick, owing to their mellower sonic signature and smooth revving nature. Which leaves us with… a Buick with a Corvette engine? It's happened before; the 94-96 Buick Roadmaster had a 265hp version of the LT1 (as did the Caddilac Fleetwood and Chevrolet Impala SS and Caprice).
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If it ain’t broke…
The Cadillacs everyone wants don’t have Northstars, they have LSX engines.
The Northstar never caught on or interested GM tuners or American car fans. Having owned both a Northstar and currently owning an LS2 it’s not hard to see why. I can say that the LSX engines are superior in every way. The LS2 even uses less fuel while idling smoother.
GM makes some of the best V8s in the world. They offer stellar performance, longevity, fuel consumption, modification potential and a uniquely American soundtrack, something I’d hate to see GM give up just to be like everyone else out there.
The interesting part of the story is what GM is going to build in Tonawanda instead of the Ultra V-8: A next generation Diesel.
I am convinced that we are pretty much at the end of the road for development of the gasoline internal combustion engine. GM is smart to kill the Ultra. Keep making small blocks and Northstars as long as there is demand, but there is no good reason to build a next generation DOHC upscale V-8. Those resources need to go into higher fuel economy propulsion like diesels and the Volt drivetrain.
Are any Northstar-powered models selling well?
The GM OHV 5.3 and LS3 6.2 are sweet engines – why bother with the Northstar? I just wish they’d offer the 5.3 in the CTS.
Excellent!!!
Now they need to make a small (4.0L) small block and slap it in the base CTS. That’s how you turn heads in the entry-level luxury car market…and the Northstar was nice, provided you never had to change its starter or bought one that lacked regular (or proper) coolant changes.
But the small-block V8 is what separates the men from the boys.
And its what makes GM a unique brand over Toyota/Lexus. Good move.
The 1994 to 1996 Impala SS, Roadmaster, Fleetwood have a strong following, and command strong prices considering the model year of the cars.
The Northstar never captured the hearts/minds especially that it started life in a FWD chassis.
GM and DOHC V8’s….sounds very strange, especially when the “small block” is a North American icon.
Does the luxury car buyer really care how the valves of what is under the hood operate? He cares about the number of cylinders, how the valves work is a different story.
The “small block” (V8, I presume) is a North American Icon to whom?
Most of GM’s car engines are 4’s and 6’s. People are aware of 260hp V6’s with DOHC and all the latest tricks. Most Honda and Toyota owners are perfectly happy with 4’s. A V8 probably seems like ridiculous excess. “Northstar” might differentiate a little bit (especially in Minnesota, where they won’t know what it means but will appreciate the Minnesota connection). If you say “small block” to a lot of people, you’ll get blank stares. DOHC, variable valve timing and 4 valves per cylinder probably get a lot more recognition amongst the non-gearhead set than “small block.” Transmission gear count gets more attention (8 is better than 6 is better than 5 is better than 4…).
Cars are not what they were in 1972. Front-wheel drive is the norm and the V6 is the new V8.
With the High World price of Petrol(Gasoline) You can see why they have dropped the V*8 from Cars, one thing I dont see is why go to a Oil burner! GM has never had any luck with Diesels! Why now.
The Roadmaster actually had three of GM’s legendary engines with the 305, 350, and LT1. The power of the LT1 is legendary but I particularly loved the durability and nearly infinite mods bin that can be had with the 350. The 92 Roadmaster Wagon I had could hum along at 90 mph with less than 2500 rpm’s holding the thrust. An awesome feat that few cars even today can duplicate.
This is a VERY smart move for GM. They don’t need yet another V8 in their line-up at this point. The world class offering they have now and $3.00 gas really makes the Ultra 8 project a near pointless exercise.
Although my tastes in luxury cars has always slanted towards the German side of the spectrum, I would definitely be interested in a Cadillac if the interior was done right. Then again, the cubist derivative looks of the current lineup doesn’t do much for me either. I think they’re designed to appeal to SUV oriented consumers, and I have yet to see a Cadillac car that didn’t look downright frumpish in the rear.
I wish GM still made the Caprice. That was about the last car they made tghat had real personality.
Ted:
They’re going to need diesels in order to meet CAFE requirements.
Actually car gurus secret hand shake is simple-` how much ponies you can squeeze out of each liter of naturally aspirated engine! And GM had always to blush in europe because their blocks squeezed out mediocre stallions out of supersize-me displacements. Yeah, yeah, don`t mention that low baritone murmur and beautiful Nm at widescreen RPMs. That`s why they wanted to make a new decent engine that would crank out rather horsepower than ponies on sleeping pills. if Gm fathers can`t build a good-lookin` DOHC, how do they expect their offsprings to build a better one? This is called `hereditary expertize gene pool`. don`t blame Murphy`s laws, blame idliness.
GM is making a wise move — their present OHV engines are so highly evolved that developing an OHC V8 for (what essentially would be) “bragging rights” would be an exercise in futility with four-buck gas on the horizon. Still, it would have been nice to see GM move into the late 20th century, but alas, here we are in the fuel-starved 21st…
The “small block” (V8, I presume) is a North American Icon to whom?
Its been an icon since 1955 and always will be. Anybody who knows something about american cars knows that.
jthorner : The interesting part of the story is what GM is going to build in Tonawanda instead of the Ultra V-8: A next generation Diesel.
Besides GM’s poor history with diesels, consider this:
To gain an insight into what will happen in 2008, we need to remember that refined diesel can only come from places that have refineries and a surplus to sell. We are talking about Europe, the Caribbean and some Asian countries, Singapore, Taiwan and Korea. It is interesting to note that in the U.S. diesel is 28 percent of the total daily consumption of gasoline and diesel, while in Europe the number is 63 percent. In other words Europe is much more into diesel than the U.S. and therefore unlikely to have much for sale. International Energy Agency forecasts for 2008 show a substantial drop coming in distillate exports.
As diesel shortages are a real drag on China’s economy, continuing or even increasing imports of this vital commodity are likely to continue. The bottom line seems to be that shortages for diesel and heating oil now seem likely to develop before they do for gasoline.
http://www.fcnp.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2322&Itemid=35
First the minivans, now the DOHC V8’s. What next?
Or, in the high-stakes game of auto poker, Hyundai played a pair of Genesis V8s, and GM folded.
jurisb: Actually car gurus secret hand shake is simple-` how much ponies you can squeeze out of each liter of naturally aspirated engine! And GM had always to blush in europe because their blocks squeezed out mediocre stallions out of supersize-me displacements.
You got to be kidding, right? HP/Liter is a meaningless number used by Honda tuners when they realize that despite having five hundred ponies at the wheels, they barely have 200ftlbs of twist, and none of it available below 6000rpm.
The new 3.6 litre DOHC V6 has the ‘room’ to be expanded to 4 litres, which would put it well mid-300 hp range and over 300 ft-lbs torque. That should be more than adequate for most of the applications the cancelled V8 was intended for.
The “small block” (V8, I presume) is a North American Icon to whom?
From Wikipedia small block
“Actually car gurus secret hand shake is simple-` how much ponies you can squeeze out of each liter of naturally aspirated engine!”
The only time I’ve ever heard the words ‘car guru’ is in magazines that have virtually no good information about cars. The ones that use that term are better off writing about toasters and hemp-based retaining walls than cars.
Hyundai is having a lot of trouble breaking into the more expensive market segments in North America. Perhaps they could get some traffic from those who would consider a Lucerne, Taurus or Avalon with this new V8. As far as I know though, the Azera has been absolutely creamed in the market place. They are still not even remotely comparable to the front runners of the full-sized segment… and they have been trying for eight years now to gain traction.
If there is one thing that GM does well, it’s push rod V-8 engines. When a GM 1/2 ton pick-up will run at a decent stride down the highway and get 20+ mpg with ample power to spare, you’ve got a good thing going. Similarly equipped Ford and Doges may have the power in certain cases, but of all of the trucks I’ve driven, the GM’s have always been the most efficient and had the smoothest power. They are as reliable of an American-made engine as is manufactured.
That said, I do not have much experience with GM V-8’s in cars, and perhaps push-rods aren’t the Cadillac’s meow. My company car is a 95 Tahoe that has been a company car all of its life and has been loved by few. It is decrepit in almost all respects save the engine. The old 350 has never given me a hick-up and will still average 20 mpg on my drives out I-70 over the hills to the Western Slope of Colorado.
I thought Detroit solved it’s engine dilemmas by putting bigger, shinier covers over them.
I’m with Sajeev here… Now that GM’s committed to OHV, they need to recall it’s 4.3L roots and produce an entry-level, fuel-efficient small small block. Maybe it won’t beat an enlargened version of their DOHC V6 in terms of power and efficiency, but it should make for a smoother ride in Buicks and Caddies.
The LS3 and LS7 can stay, but they’re leviathons in our day (6.2L and 7.0L respectively).
Anyone want to wager that the Northstar technology will be pawned off to the highest bidder? GM has to fund development of the Volt somehow…
Anyone want to wager that the Northstar technology will be pawned off to the highest bidder? GM has to fund development of the Volt somehow…
Who needs it?
Toyota DOHC V8
Nissan DOHC V8
BMW DOHC V8
Hyundai DOHC V8
MB DOHC V8
VW/ Audi/ Porsche DOHC V8
Ford DOHC V8
I think that covers just about everyone when we take into consideration the the sub-brands of each manufacturer. There anit no shortage of mutli-valve V8 engines today.
Basically any manufacturer that can make an inline DOHC 4 cyl. can make a V8 by combining two engine into one.
“Basically any manufacturer that can make an inline DOHC 4 cyl. can make a V8 by combining two engine into one.”
Sounds easy in theory, doesn’t it? Try it sometime.
“Basically any manufacturer that can make an inline DOHC 4 cyl. can make a V8 by combining two engine into one.”
Sounds easy in theory, doesn’t it? Try it sometime.
Hey, never said I was an automotive engineer! But IIAC many of todays multivalve V8 and BMW current V12 were orginially created in that manner.
If you look at many of today’s V* you will find that the makers also have 4 cyl engines of half the displacement. Ford had a 2.3l sohc 4cyl in service for some time before they created the sohc 4.6l v8. When BMW created its v12 in the late 1980s it was a combination of two 2.5l inline6s.
“GM has never had any luck with Diesels! Why now.”
Not true. GM’s Isuzu joint venture Duramax heavy duty pickup truck diesel is a very popular engine in it’s class. GM’s Detroit Diesel division (sold off to raise cash) is a huge supplier of heavy duty diesel engines and continues to be a market share leader.
GM did introduce one under designed diesel in the 1980s and single handedly gave diesels a bad name in the US, but the problems were pretty much unique to those engines. I doubt that any of the engineers or managers who did that botch job are even still working at GM.
As far as diesel fuel shortages, I don’t buy the concept. Gasoline is more difficult to refine from crude oil than is diesel. Also, bio-diesel is at least as good of an idea as bio-ethanol is. The best way, however, to make more diesel fuel available is to shift a bunch of freight off trucks on onto trains. The efficiency per ton-mile of a freight train is so much higher than for a truck it isn’t funny. Then again, we could start building factories throughout the US and make stuff closer to the point of consumption instead of bringing it all half way around the world and then back and forth across the continent. I wonder how much bunker fuel (ships) and diesel fuel goes into feeding the China-to-TarMart supply chain?
Why now is easy. Diesel engines deliver 20-30% better real world fuel economy than do gasoline engines.
“Anyone want to wager that the Northstar technology will be pawned off to the highest bidder?”
It isn’t really anything salable as it was a catch up effort from day 1. And even if it was, they have probably already given Northstar away to their Chinese Partners.
As someone who enjoyed an LT1 and now enjoys a mildly tuned LS2, I have to say this makes sense to me.
GM already has an excellent line of V8 engines (albeit pushrod), gas prices are climbing, I don’t see enough market for another engine, DOHC or not.
I’m no GM fanboy, but the one thing they do fairly well is evident in the LSx series…drop it in anything and you start to forget the rest of the car’s problems.
durailer: you can bet that a 4.0L V8 will beat the 3.6L V6 in 0-30 street driving, highway fuel economy (taller overdrive with pushrod torque)and super effortless acceleration in the proper American fashion.
Not to mention they are much, much cheaper to make. And the immediate rush of pushrod torque is what that market needs. The LS-V8’s refinement is already there.
If they build it (in a RWD Caddy CTS) and sell it for $35k, the likes of Lexus ES buyers will come.
To further Steve Biro’s and whatdoiknow1’s comments: For a long time, Jaguar offered no V8s, but did offer inline sixes and V12s, skirting the need for completely different designs.
It’s no secret that a lot of GM’s V6s came from V8s, and remained in production long after their big brothers bit the dust. Oldsmobile offered a great V6 version of the Northstar, but that engine disappeared with the rest of the brand.
Meanwhile, with Tata’s possible Jaguar and LandRover purchase, they may want to get their hands on a DOHC V8 that they can call their own.
If Tata bought Northstar, it’d be eerily reminiscent of Buick’s aluminum V8 sold to Rover in the ’60s. GM actually tried to buy it back (it’s a distant relative to the 3800 series), but Rover (and Ford’s LandRover) kept using it into this century.
Anyhow, with all the new players on the scene, Northstar will find a buyer.
durailer: Wouldn’t Ford sell the rights to the AJ 4.0L V8 for that hefty asking price?
Hopefully Ford–like GM and the LS’s–will use their well regarded homegrown modular V8s in more premium Fords (cough, Lincolns) now…
If hp versus displacement doesn`t matter, why did honda bother to run their asses off for the NSX coupe without a turbocharger? Slap a turbo, work on that jet lag and save bucks. Why type R is pure breather not turbo ? A company that can make 100hp or more out o 1 liter without loosing warranty , reliability and durability is perceived as a sensei of engine building.
Jurisb:
What you fail to realize is that at the end of the day, a car that has 100hp/Liter puts that power down the exact same way as a car with a bigger motor at 75hp/Liter. The actual power being put down at the wheels is what maters, not some random number that has little bearing on performance numbers.
Oh, and yeah, Honda motors are all well and great with power production, as long as you yearn to drive above 6000rpm all the time.