As Bloomberg reports, it all comes down to this: do you count Scion sales in Toyota's sales totals or not? If you do, Toyota can– and will– claim bragging rights as America's best-selling car brand, topping the '07 sales charts. If you don't count Scion, Chevrolet reclaims its title from Ford; an honor Chevy last earned in 2005. "Through November… Toyota sold 2,101,804 cars and light trucks, for a 35,524-unit advantage. Without Scion's 121,237 vehicles, Chevrolet would be on top by 85,713." Argument for Scion's inclusion: "Toyota spokesman Xavier Dominicis: 'We've always counted it that way, and it's sold only at Toyota dealerships.'" Supporting logic: Lexus products aren't considered Toyotas because they're sold in discreet dealerships. Autodata includes Scion in its Toyota-brand total. Argument against assumptive Sciontology: "'I don't think for a second that Scion is a Toyota vehicle; it's clearly its own brand,'' said Tom Libby, an analyst for J.D. Power and Associates. 'You might as well count Pontiac vehicles as Chevrolet sales if you think Scion's a Toyota.''" Supporting logic: Libby's employer and Ward's Automotive separate Scion from Toyota in their tallies. To its credit, Bloomberg plays the GEO card; the now-defunct brand (R.I.P. 1977) brand sold through Chevy dealerships. Back in the day, GM combined GEO and Chevy's sales totals. Ah, but according to Chevy flack Terrance Rhadigan, GEOs wore the Chevrolet bow tie, while Scion's aren't branded Toyota. We report, you decide.
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Geos wore the bowtie? Am I the only one who remembers this:
http://www.synlube.com/Logos/Geo_Logo.jpg
Only after Geo went defunct and all the remaining Geo vehicles were rebranded as Chevys did they start wearing the Chevy logo. I think the Geo argument is the nail in this coffin.
according to Chevy flack Terrance Rhadigan, GEOs wore the Chevrolet bow tie,
Mr Rhadigan needs to go back and get his facts straight. Geo was marketed as a separate brand, sold through Chevy dealerships, much like they tried to sell the Opel brand in Buick dealerships. Geo had its own emblem, a stylized globe, shown here as the “o” in “Geo.” It wasn’t until GM decided to dump the Geo name in favor of the Chevy name in 1997 that the cars wore the bow tie.
And if Toyota is going to count Scion sales under Toyota because they’re sold at the same dealership, GM should get to combine Pontiac, Buick and GMC sales.
If not this year then it will happen next year. Arguing over bragging rights is ridiculous when you are selling cars like a Chevy Aveo as an alleged competitor to the Toyota Yaris.
Do the final rankings change for retail customer only sales versus combined fleet and retail sales?
I agree with Mr Libby. Scion shouldn’t be counted as “Toyota” sales. When people buy a Scion, they buy a Scion, not a Toyota Jr.
I don’t know why Toyota want this title so badly that they’re willing to use ropy logic to get there. Don’t we chastise Detroit for such practices? Toyota should go back to the beginning.
Build a car that people want to buy and titles like “World’s biggest car marker (by volume)” and “The United States’ best selling brand” will follow.
steronz :
Geos wore the bowtie?
The badge on the hood was the ‘O’ (globe thing), and it had a bowtie in the center.
http://gtkgeo.50megs.com/images/geo_badge.jpg
edit: Why do I remember crap like this?
They should go by the brand name on the car’s registration and title. If it says “Scion” it’s a Scion. If it says “Toyota” it’s a Toyota. I owned a Geo in the early 90s and it was titled as a Geo, not a Chevy.
I would be interested in the total numbers including all of GM’s brands compared to the totals for all Toyota, Lexus, and Scion.
That would be a better comparo because then it would really define who made the more desirable vehicles. The General has so many models that are just rebadged, it would show if the re-packaging effort actually worked, or if it just cannibalized the re-badged brand.
If Toyota is producing & manufacturing Scions, and using their resources in doing so, it would make sense to consider Scion a Toyota then since it’s Toyota’s funds driving the Scion effort.
I’m surprised about the Lexus & Toyota separation though. Is Cadillac separate from Chevy then?
z31: I remember that crap too. Unfortunately after moving to Manhattan many years ago, I sold my Miata in favor of a cheap beater; a bright-yellow Geo Storm. Well, I was storming a month later when the all-aluminum engine block fused together after driving home one weekend on the Turnpike because the thermostat failed…
I’ll vote along with Bloomberg: you go to a Toyota dealer to buy a Scion, in the same way you went to a Chevy dealer to buy a Geo, many of which were captive imports from Suzuki and Isuzu.
z31:
edit: Why do I remember crap like this?
You’ll do really well when RF gets enough money to run the upcoming TTAC Jeopardy tournament!
Jeff in Canada
I would be interested in the total numbers including all of GM’s brands compared to the totals for all Toyota, Lexus, and Scion.
Total vehicle sales as of the end of November
GM: 3,502,774
Toyota Motor Sales: 2,396,425
Ford Motor Company: 2,348,278
Chrysler LLC: 1,885,227
American Honda: 1,419,750
December’s figures are supposed to be released today.
If Chevy/Geo sales were combined, it seems logical to combine Toyota/Scion.
In VA, I’m pretty sure Scions are registered as Toyotas, but my guess is this can vary from state to state.
All of this will be academic in 2008, when Toyota sans Scion passes Chevy.
How about we total the real corporate totals and forget the meaningless brand names?
Score it for GM, Toyota, and Ford. Fold in pontiac, buick, scion, mercury, etc.
I’m deciding not to include Scion. It’s a different brand with different products that are marketed differently than Toyotas. If we’re going to count them as Toyotas, we might as well count GMC’s as Chevys. Many (certainly not all) dealers sell both. Either way it doesn’t matter a whole lot. Toyota’s doing great and passing the domestics in nearly every aspect.
Also, GEO RIP 1997 rather than 1977
My vote goes for Scion being included. For one thing, the very same cars are sold as Toyotas everywhere else in the world. The fact that there is a special marketing spin for these vehicles in the US doesn’t make them any less a Toyota.
Since GM is marketing Pontiac-Buick-GMC together these days you would also make a good argument for lumping them all together as well, but it isn’t as strong as the argument for Toyota including Scion in the Toyota sales totals.
Maybe Toyota should ignore the whole thing and just quote sales per dealership numbers, in which case all three of the 2.8 get skunked so badly it’s embarrassing.
“I don’t know why Toyota want this title so badly that they’re willing to use ropy logic to get there. Don’t we chastise Detroit for such practices?”
Most of the ‘PR’ folks in this industry will spin things to the point where a vehicle from Mediocristan is considered to be the holy grail.
I remember when the Ford Five Hundred first came to one of the sales. The Ford rep was gushing about this and that for what seemed like an eternity. Finally someone told him to simmer down in a way that only a hardcore member of the auto industry could articulate. Good times…
Mass quantities of who cares?
Talk about your basic tempest in a teapot….
Since many of the so-called chevies were actually made at NUMMI (the Toyota/GM Joint venture, for the transplant-challenged), shouldn’t Chevy get half the credit for those, and Toyota half the credit?
GM…show some class….when Toyota blows by you in the sales race, you can either argue incessantly about the arcane minuteia of how the numbers were compiled, or gracefully acknowledge the accomplishment of your competitor and vow to regain the crown in the future. Whining is for children. These guys fighting about the silly details about how the counts are made remind me of democrats from a certain southwestern state fighting over certain ballots with hanging chads during a certain recent presidential election.
Please get over it.
Out of Gm sales ,please, all the koreans go -now! I am talking to you mister saturn Vue as well! And please, saabs follow ! All astras, get out of sales charts! And get the Vibe with you! Here we go, fair game! you see raising a daughter, and renting a blonde for 5bucks on the corner of a street ain`t the same thing! Although you own the girl in both cases.
Frank,
My xB is titled as a Toyota.
And the dealer records call it a “Toyota Wagon” It seems to me that Scions are more legitimately a sub-brand, rather than a seperate brand. Toyota will do the same thing with Prius, since there will be three Prius models in a few years.
Toyota cars + Scion = 1,313,651
Toyota trucks = 977,997
Total Toyota, per the big T: 2,291,648
Total Toyota, per GM: 2,161,467
Toyota USA 2007: up 6% (2.62 million)
Chevrolet = 2,265,641
GM USA 2007: down 6% (3.87 million)
BTW, Tundra missed the 200K sales target: 196,555
If Scion isn’t a distinct brand, what the hell is it? A marketplace muddler?
“If Scion isn’t a distinct brand, what the hell is it? A marketplace muddler?”
Yes.
Scion is a visionary new offering that has lost it’s vision of what to offer.
The old X’s were pretty interesting vehicles. The new ones are just plain ugly and pointless. They may as well have put a sign in the middle of each of them that says, “Put big gulp here!”
As far as the Tc goes… great car! But what would really be wrong with just calling it a Scion Celica. Heck you can put in a Scion Supra with 450+ hp, a Scion MR3 hardtop and convertible (make it look more like the 2nd generation MR2), keep the last gen Xb and offer more modifications and options, and make the Xa a direct answer to the Honda Fit. Give it a little more room than the Fit and make it a showcase for all the electronic gadgetry with a GPS, Ipod, Bluetooth, and maybe throw in a five year subscription to XM/Sirius satellite radio.
Scion would be one helluva car division with that combination. Hmmm… now that Jim Press has left Toyota maybe I should get out my rolodex for all my connections in Torrance.
Wait a sec… they all deal with Toyota repos. Never mind.