Find Reviews by Make:
You may recall that GM sold its stake in Subaru to… Toyota. Last spring's union between the two Japanese automakers is about to bear fruit. Motor Trend reveals that one of the first toys out of the Tubaru toy box will be a latter day reincarnation of the Toyota Celica. The new sports coupe will arrive both as a lower-priced rear-wheel-drive base model and a full-bore AWD model, complete with the Impreza STi's 300hp engine. The new Toybaru will be offered in two flavors: two-door coupe or three-door hatch. To keep the price duo-brand-compliant, the Subota will be a high-volume model; you can expect to see it in a number of markets including the U.S. GM may rue the day it threw Subie's shares into its cash conflagration.
31 Comments on “Celica Redux...”
Read all comments
If they can keep the base RWD model under 3000lbs, I’ll take two, please.
So we finally get what the Scion tC should’ve been to begin with…
This has to be the last obvious frontier for automakers selling cars in the US. What choices do we have for sub-25k, RWD sports/sporty cars? The Mustang, and a couple two-seater convertibles. The first automaker to get a light(er) weight, RWD car to the sport compact market will win tremendous support from the tuner crowd, among others. Hopefully they’ll also be cheap enough for those of us making student loan payments for more than rent+car payments combined.
I mourned the demise of the Celica , especially when they turned it from a fun sports car into a bloated lounge lizard like the 300ZX became.
300 ponies, low weight, no nonsense performance, and probably decent mileage through efficiency and weight reduction makes for a great car.
I wonder how long it will take Toyota to figure out that Boxer and volume don’t go together.
Wait, the maufacturing plant is in Gunma? Good gawd, the Initial-D fanboys are going to go bonkers over this.
I’ve always considered the Scion tC to be the Celica of today.
Cool I can’t wait to see it, I hope it ends up light and efficient. GM abandons it’s RWD dreams because of CAFE and Toyota and Subaru jump in with something that will probably get decent mileage.
Finally a Toyota I might buy, if it has any kind of rear seat.
GS650G :
300 ponies, low weight, no nonsense performance, and probably decent mileage through efficiency and weight reduction makes for a great car.
Yeah, until you get hit by a soccer mom driving an Expedition.
Guys, while these types of cars may be legendary on the track, they just aren’t practical. Plus, if you put this type of car in the wrong hands (young drivers), you’ll have all sorts of problems.
Just a bad idea.
# Johnson Schwanz :
February 4th, 2008 at 11:43 am
“Yeah, until you get hit by a soccer mom driving an Expedition.
Guys, while these types of cars may be legendary on the track, they just aren’t practical. Plus, if you put this type of car in the wrong hands (young drivers), you’ll have all sorts of problems.
Just a bad idea.”
sounds like the soccer moms and young drivers are the bad ideas.
3000lb isn’t much different than a current civic, and i don’t hear too many complaints. young drivers will kill themselves and others no matter how much power their car has and no matter which wheels are driven.
NICKNICK :
sounds like the soccer moms and young drivers are the bad ideas.
3000lb isn’t much different than a current civic, and i don’t hear too many complaints. young drivers will kill themselves and others no matter how much power their car has and no matter which wheels are driven.
Are you serious? The Civic has 140hp at around 3000 lbs. And if you price it at a cost that is considerably achievable for acquisition by a young person, you will encounter problems. The new 135 is like 3400 lbs at it’s 300hp capability.
So you’re telling me that a lightweight, 300hp, RWD car is safe on the road during the rain or snow? Mustangs are heavy as hell, and THEY break loose during the rain at times. So a price point car, in the hands of an inexperienced driver leads to fatal results. Although it’s not a price point car, read the article about the kid that killed himself in an M5 that his dad bought for him.
In addition, both young drivers and soccer moms have their place on the road. Is it the ideal driving situation? No, but it is reality.
I retain my original thought that this car is a bad idea.
@Johnson Schwanz
That’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard in all my life! So basically, you’re saying that no one can have a small fun car because either they don’t know what they are doing or they will be HIT by someone not knowing what they are doing. It’s that kind of mindset that made the SUV so danged popular in the first place! The Nuclear Argument. “Oooooh, they have one. We’d better have one, too, just to be safe.”
And as for the article, you can’t possibly tell me that that’s how ALL young drivers act. Taking a 500bhp car down a runway at night at 140 mph. Just more stereotyping.
This is great news.
@Johnson Schwanz
You think that people should not have any fun because someone might get hurt? You don’t believe that there is such a thing as personal accountability? No thanks to your safety regulations. Your reality is a place I would never want to be.
Uh, ditto. Regarding the kid who got killed in a M5, you would place the blame on BMW over the kid and his parents? Man, those alcohol distillers better switch over to juice production from their bad ideas too.
Johnson Schwanz So everyone should forced into heavy unfun cars because of the lowest common denominator. Maybe we should be raising the standards and requiring more personal accountability rather than always lowering it to account for bad driver(not all youg people or soccer moms are bad) that should be driving better to begin with. Maybe we wouldn’t have the problem all the deaths on the road if we make it harder for the s*it hole drivers to get licensed.
The base model is speculated to only have 200hp. Weighing 3000lb or more, the car would be about as ferocious as a modern Miata, and probably more safe. This would be a manageable, fun package for not a lot of cash. Don’t forget about electronic nannies.
The 300hp model would be AWD and probably perform, and be priced, very similar to a Lancer Evo or Subaru WRX/STI. The market’s answer to the young/incompetent drivers would be higher insurance premiums, which these kinds of cars enjoy already.
I’m not saying “no” to fun cars – I drive a 335i coupe. But I’ve been to racing school, I’m 29, and I know how to drive. But there’s no way in HELL I could have been sensible, skilled, and aware enough to drive this car when I was 16-20. So don’t criticize my reality, because I’m pretty sure that if you open your eyes just enough to escape the mental utopian view of 1500lb, 400hp, big braked, coiled-over “fun cars,” you will see my point entirely.
Not all young drivers are bad drivers, nor are all soccer moms. However, a young driver not named Lewis Hamilton does not have the experience necessary to handle a light weight 300lb car. End quote.
All I’m iterating is that if you’re going to have a car with this potential, it needs to be priced at a point that makes it unattainable to inexperienced drivers.
In my example, the Dad BOUGHT the M5 for his son, so that one is on his Dad.
But if you price this Tubaru at $22-25K, more and more drivers with 2-4 years experience in driving low-powered FWD cars will now be potentially dangerous to themselves and others, as the relatively low price point makes this desirable as they cross shop Civics, Mazda 3’s, or whatever the kids drive these days.
But what do I know – I drive on the DC Beltway where I’m either about to be run over by merging Soccer Moms or hit from behind by lunatic 20-somethings in WRX’s and Mustangs accelerating once traffic clears – even in the rain and snow.
@ Johnson Schwanz
I’m all for having better driving training as well as making licenses harder to obtain, like they do in Europe. Pricing is a ludicrous way to obtain safety. And plenty of high school kids drive 335i’s in rich neighborhoods. See the fault in your logic? Money and age aren’t directly related. And why shouldn’t an older, less wealthy car lover not get to drive a great sporty car?
this would be sweet. how about using some of those parts for a new mr2 as well? okay okay, let’s wait and see if the celica actually happens (and if it’s a reasonably pure fun little car and not an overweight and underpowered snore machine).
dolo54 Thank you for saying what I was about to say. Why price the responsible people(younge or old) who know how to drive out of a car simple because its a fun RWD car with some juice. Price isn’t going to stop the young and stupid, they can simply buy a cheap mid 80’s Mustang add 300hp and fatter tires for half the price of this Toyota/Subaru.
@ mocktard
The base model is speculated to only have 200hp. Weighing 3000lb or more, the car would be about as ferocious as a modern Miata, and probably more safe. This would be a manageable, fun package for not a lot of cash. Don’t forget about electronic nannies.
Exactly. And exactly the car I would like: a Miata with room to bring the kids home from daycare, and something that’s fun in the twisty drive to work. I’m all about the “it’s more fun to drive a slow car fast…”
# dolo54 :
February 4th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
@ Johnson Schwanz
I’m all for having better driving training as well as making licenses harder to obtain, like they do in Europe. Pricing is a ludicrous way to obtain safety. And plenty of high school kids drive 335i’s in rich neighborhoods. See the fault in your logic? Money and age aren’t directly related. And why shouldn’t an older, less wealthy car lover not get to drive a great sporty car?
Pricing isn’t a ludicrous way to obtain safety…how many 20 year olds drive Porsche 911’s?
The “older, less wealthy car lover” can buy whatever they want, because with age *usually* comes responsibility and a modicum of driving skill. Therefore, the performance aspect of those of us on a more limited budget can be satisfied in the used market, as it is currently done, and as I did it when buying my 07 335.
While I understand your point about affordable performance, I believe that the loss leader approach to high performance is inherently more dangerous to both young buyers and to their potential road occupants than if said performance is achieved at a higher price paid. Think about the sheer technology that is required to achieve weight savings – aluminum, carbon fiber, etc; coupled with weight savings in the required safety components. These things ALONE will be expensive. However, if Toyota/Subie inflicts this type of performance/capability at a loss to gain buyers for their lines in the future, I believe that society will ultimately pay.
The M5 story touched my heart in a number of ways – a situation that was totally avoidable if the parent had been more responsible. Consequently, I believe that the release of unbridled, high performance cars at a low price point simply encourages unskilled hoonage; especially given the perceived invincibility of youth, low cost to maintain, and the enticement of purchasing a high performance car in place of one that is ultimately safer at the same low price point. Higher insurance premiums have not, and will continue to not be a large obstacle. In this scenario, the young buyer is in control, and may not have the judgment to behave responsibly with such a dangerous tool in both perfect and inclement weather.
@ Johnson Schwanz
I hear what you’re saying, but just remember: even a diesel Chevette could probably hit 80mph. Kids are going to cross themselves out regardless of what they’re driving.
Wow, I was thinking the other day about how I would like a Miata coupe or hatch with a little more room and a similar price.
Though, I want one like the original was. It had quality materials and feel. That makes a HUGE difference. Even with the cloth seats, the dash, steering wheel, and instrument cluster had a classic look that felt a lot more expensive than the car cost.
@ Jordan
You’re right, but if a kid sees the new Tubaru Celica advertised at $21k with 300hp, 0-60 in 5.?, then they are gonna wanna try it even more.
My dad went 100 miles an hour every day of his life from age 18 to age 26- when I was born. So I have speed in my blood as much as everyone else. But he made damn sure that I went to Skip Barber 3-day racing school so that if I ever bought a high performance car, I’d know how to handle it.
A) Sounds like a good car. Toyota needs something sporty in it’s line up (Scion tc doesn’t count; not based on my test drive, anyway).
B) Personal accountability. You can’t remove risk and make everyone safe at the expense of others. Besides, the cars kids were driving when I was in highschool were always less safe than the more expensive cars there parents drove, even though they didn’t have the acceleration or top speed of their parents’ cars. The equivalent today would be 5.0 Mustangs and mid 90’s land yachts (SUVs). You can’t reasonably limit the selection of cars based on the premise that some irresponsible kid-or adult-might get their hands on it and cause damage to themselves and others. It’s primarily the responsibility of the parents to decide what is right for their kids, and the responsibility of the government, either through civil courts or a licensing agency, to insure that only qualified drivers of any age are on the road in any type of car.
This is good news. Lets hope Toyota moves the engine further back behind the front wheels to eliminate some of the infamous Subaru understeer.
I can’t imagine that a small sporty RWD Toyota would be any more dangerous than any number of other small sporty cars currently on the market. The Mini Cooper S, Honda Civic Si, Subaru WRX STi…
If there is a spike in accidents in a small sporty RWD Toyota, as well as other small high-performance cars, then the insurance premiums for such cars will increase to the point that it affects the sales of such cars, just like happened with muscle and pony-cars back in the late 1960s and early 1970s.
In this case the free market will sort it out.
Schwanz: Your argument is very weak, sir, on several counts.
Porsche does not price the 911 to keep kids from buying it. Correlation /= causation.
The 300HP version of this car will not be $21k. You also talk about the car as a loss leader. Both are a strawman arguments, and are not backed by anything resembling fact, even in the detail-deficient source article. I would expect it to sell for a price comparable to a 350Z or STi. I’m talking out of my ass too, but Toyota is not going to throw money down the drain – they will price the car to be competitive with other cars in the segment.
From your argument, I would expect you to argue that motorcycles should not exist, or if they must, a Hayabusa should sell for north of $30k. For far less than your phantom $21k, your immature youth can buy a 500lb motorcycle with 200HP. I agree that inexperience and hyper-powerful motorcycles should not mix, but price is the last means with which I would attempt to solve that problem.
Finally, let me re-iterate: price is a lousy way to intentionally keep inexperienced drivers out of high-performance cars. Yes it can have that effect, but that does not make it right.
I think this is a good move by toyota, but we’ll see how the car is when it comes out. Logically, the car with rwd and 200hp should compete against the civic si and the v6 mustang in the 20-25k range, otherwise it will demolish scion tc sales. The awd 300 hp car will likely cost around 30k.
As far as young drivers and accidents go, I don’t think it will make a difference as mirrors of both models are readily available already (v6 mustang and the wrx sti). Frankly, teens in high powered cars will always be a problem and pricing isn’t an issue. For most 18 year olds, 20k or 30k isn’t in their grasp and those with rich parents will get one either way (if they can get an m5, they can get this).