According to King5, cameras set up to catch "red-light runners" in Puyallup, WA, are working quite well. "Perhaps a little too well," says city manager Gary McLean. Even though each camera-equipped intersection has warning signs, McLean says the number of drivers caught by the cameras has been a revelation. "I think everyone's been surprised at the number of people getting the warning notices." After the cameras went into operation on March 1st, more than 2.5k "red light runners" were caught; an average of more than 100 per day. However, no drivers have received the $124 ticket slated to go along with the offense. City leaders are extending the ticket-free "warning period" through the end of April so drivers "can get used to where the cameras are." And it's not about the money: "It's about correcting behavior and public safety," says McLean. "It's not about revenue. Because, trust me, plenty of people are still going to violate the law and those fines will be imposed, but for the public listening to us now, we hope they hear this and correct it." Meanwhile, the city of Bellevue, WA will soon be adding cameras at six intersections, along with three new speed cameras, The expected annual take? $827k.
if red-light cameras are not about revenues, then all fines should be funneled to the local park/school/library district and not the municipal government.
If it isn’t about money, they should do stop sign cameras instead. There’s no question about timing, and stops signs are just as frequently ignored.
If it’s not about money, they shouldn’t be counting their chickens, er, dollars before they hatch.
The fact that they’ve already projected annual revenue proves that it is VERY much indeed about the money. In fact, I imagine there was much hand rubbing and chanting of [Mr. Burns Voice] EXXXCELLENT![/Mr. Burns Voice]
From what I have read here in the past on this subject, I am sure I am in the minority.
BUT most mornings on my way to work I get to watch left turners run the red light while my light is green. I can’t go until the 6 to 8 cars running the red light turn in front of me. The best one is the dump truck loaded with gravel that accelerates while trying and failing to make the light. Black Smoke anyone. Last summer one actually tipped over.
Based on my frequent experience I say bring on the cameras and fine the crap out of them. It may even reduce my taxes. (wishful thinking)
Have to agree with Juniper. Fewer illegal left turns into my right of way will prolong my life expectancy, especially while on a motorcycle. Put the cameras AT EVERY TRAFFIC LIGHT.
I’m a motorcyclist, so I am just as invested in despising people making illegal/unaware left hand turns as anyone on here, but…
How about cities use proper traffic engineering to insure that people trying to make left hand turns don’t end up wanting to play chicken?
Many many intersections give left hand turners such a small amount of time to get the job done that it is no surprise when people try to push the yellow as hard as they can to avoid waiting 1-3 light cycles.
I’m all for punishing bad behavior, but only in conjunction with serious efforts to fix the root problems of that behavior…
I’m a fan of these trap like devices. Personally, I’d prefer that the actual driver receive the fines much better than the owner of the offending vehicle. I’d also like to see the fines start off in the neighborhood of close to $400.00 so it really does make an impact on the pocket. Insurance companys should be notified immediately. I’d also like to see that if enough of these fines are leveed, say five (5) of them to one driver, then an immediate licence suspension should take place. I figure that a former driver, now a pedestrian, for six (6) months may have finally felt the impact of what they had been doing during their driving career.
The fact that they’ve already projected annual revenue proves that it is VERY much indeed about the money
Exactly.
John
Is there any stupider idea than depending upon fines for revenue than upon taxes? In one fell swoop we achieve both injustice and unfairness.
Fines should serve only one purpose: to be a deterrent. The problem is that because they redistribute wealth, there are vested interests involved who would gladly look away so long as it is someone else who’s on the receiving end of the injustice.
Machines (installed by, financed by, operated by and programmed by people who stand to gain) dispensing so-called justice? Only sheep would allow this to happen.
gakoenig
I agree intersections should be well designed. In the case I sited it is. Two left lanes and a long light and a long yellow for plenty of warning. It is a busy intersection in the morning and other people have to move also so the light has to change.
Bunkie
Not being stupid or a sheep I don’t understand why being fined for running a red light is injustice or unfairness. It is the people running the red light that are looking the other way so they get theirs and everybody else can get out of the way. I don’t think that is justice.
Would you rather I stood on the corner and threw bricks at the offenders?
I have to say that if the city leaders of Bellevue were indicative of the rest of the ones installing these things, I might be less antagonistic. However, I was traveling through San Diego when the news story came out about the city SHORTENING the yellows to increase their take.
Sorry, but these things are just lame. Juniper makes my point. The problem he described tells me that no one at his city has done their job in managing the roads, intersections, and traffic lights. The light running behavior is mostly a consequence of managerial delinquence by municipalities. The right or wrong of fining the offenders is completely besides the point. The real issue is getting the cities to do their jobs rather than making money off of their delinquence, or in the case of San Diego, willful disregard for life.
Juniper-
It’s injustice when municipalities depend upon fines and, as such, have a vested interest in creating lawbreakers.
I have absolutely no problem with punishing people who break the law. But gaming the system with shortened yellows and cash kickbacks to the manufacturer is most definitely unjust.
What about the admin fees?
$124! They sure are getting off cheap. It’s $263 at the camera intersection that I pass through everyday on the way to and from work. I have no problem whatsoever with red light cameras as long as they are accurate and punish only those truly running a red light. My opinion of the one at the intersection near work will likely change if I get a ticket from an incident that occurred two weeks ago. I was making a left turn when the light turned yellow. Unfortunately, I had to slam on my brakes in the middle of the intersection as a lady was making a right hand turn on red from the opposite direction, leaving me in the intersection with a red light on what was a close but legal left hand turn.
It’s injustice when municipalities depend upon fines and, as such, have a vested interest in creating lawbreakers.
I have absolutely no problem with punishing people who break the law. But gaming the system with shortened yellows and cash kickbacks to the manufacturer is most definitely unjust.
Well put. My view exactly.
Not to parrot jrlombard, but I agree with Bunkie.
The problem isn’t the red light cameras per se, but rather the gradual slide that happens after.
People have a natural tendency to find ways to game a system in their favor over the good of other people. So, public officials see that raising taxes is unpopular and doesn’t get them reelected, but that traffic cameras are approved by some people, and hey, they make a lot of money! So, They’re put in. Then, the yellow is shortened to make more money. Once people get used to that, more cameras are put in. Eventually the United States resembles Britian: a camera at every corner, making millions for the state and observing your every move, 1984 style.
I’m interested to hear what other people who agree with the red light cameras have to say. What is your response to this argument?
(Edit to clarify) Essentially, the question is: Do you prefer safety to freedom?
Left turns, especially during rush hours, are the major safety problem when it comes to signals. If a city wants to deter this problem, use video and a couple of police cars to pull/wave people over after they’ve made a red light turn.
Of course, the fines need to be stiff enough to justify the cops. And the cops need to be willing to actually enforce traffic law during peak drive time.
I doubt anything will happen/change. Cameras will be used. Fines issued. Of course, no one will lose a license.
Maybe something will change in 10 years. With black market in-car YouTube and other distractions, annual fatalities might hit 60K.
In my experience with red light cameras (that is, watching drivers react to them, not running them myself) they seem to work. When I was in Edmonton, Alberta a couple years ago, it amazed me that no one ran red lights where there were cameras posted. When the light turned yellow, EVERYONE came to a stop. I was amazed. Here in Ontario, it seems that yellow means ‘go faster.’
However, that said, I think Winnipeg’s light system is better. There, the cross traffic’s lights go green the moment the other direction’s lights go red. No 1 second wait, no ‘grace’ period for red light runners. And there, I didn’t see anyone run a red light either. When you know you don’t have that 1 second to get through the intersection, I guess you don’t even try.
Adonis has grasped the central point of my argument. But I would re-state his question:
Do you prefer the promise of safety to freedom?
We have basic principles of justice upon which our free society is built. One of which is the right to face your accuser in court. In the case of automated systems, who (or what) is the accuser? I am deeply worried about this question because as a professional software developer, I know how easy it is to rig a system. Furthermore, I know how difficult it is to track down whomever might be responsible.
Finally, we have to realize that there are no easy answers. Justice depends upon hard, honest work of police and the courts. It takes tax dollars to provide it. As citizens, we have a responsibility to see that we share the burden (taxes) and benefit (justice) equally. Shifting the burden to “offenders” is a dangerous mistake, lest we all morph from being taxpayers to “offenders”.
In Dallas, city officials are REMOVING red light cameras because they WORKED TOO WELL. Yes, they made a bunch of money at first but then everyone got wise to the cameras and didn’t run the lights. You’d think that was cause to celebrate, but no, the cost of the cameras is apparently very high and the city was no longer making money off of the cameras so they decided to remove a significant percentage of them. The hypocrits had also stated that they were putting them in to improve public safety, yeah right. the story was on msnbc.com 3-4 days ago.
I stop at yellow unless I know I will be through before red. I actaully hitmy brakes a lot for yellow. So I am in favor, which shold make others do the safe thing too.
Logical extenstion is speed cameras, but in the end I cant say why vehicles are not speed governed to match local sopeed limits. GPS shold enable this. Nobody here will like that.
The camera-equipped intersections in Council Bluffs, IA, actually have a numerical countdown of the last 60 seconds of the WALK signal for pedstrians, the end of which coincides with the beginning of the yellow light, which IS really short. They also have signs warning that you’re approaching a camera-equipped intersection.
People have taken to looking for the countdown and stopping if there’s 5 seconds or less to go.
If everyone habitually slows down @ 10 seconds anticipating that the guy in front might brake within the next 5 seconds, the risk of rear-end collisions shouldn’t be that great.
Anyone not smart enough to heed these ample warnings deserves a ticket, IMHO.
I realize that in some jurisdictions the city hasn’t given fair warning that the cameras are there, nor have they given motorists the plainly-visible green light contdown and that those places are truly just in it for the money.
The whole problem is that the government, whether state, local, or federal will become addicted to the money that is generated and will keep jonesing for more. So when the behavior is modified by the scofflaws, they will make it harder to not get the fine….. 2 second turning light anyone??
They should have cameras to tag the crosswalk violators if they are serious about safety, which they are not.
Having said that, if the cops were enforcing red light infractions there would be no need for these cameras. They are indeed solely a source of revenue as accidents increase once people are aware of the cameras. It is ridiculous to expect everyone to be perfect and to penalize us for all of the errors of our ways. There are times when it is prudent to ‘run’ a light to avoid an accident. To force an extra tax on that decision is short sighted in the least.
A good site on traffic laws: http://www.thenewspaper.com/
I’d just like to add that these tickets are the easiest to fight in court. You WILL win. The prosecution has no witness against you. They cannot bring the camera into court and let you cross examine it. They have no one that can give any testimony at all. They have a picture, that’s it. Additionally, unlike parking tickets where it is OK to ticket the person the vehicle is registered to (though it shouldn’t be), running a red light is a moving violation. The operator of the vehicle must be ticketed. The camera has no idea who was driving the vehicle.
The cameras only generate revenue if people pay fines they shouldn’t. That aside, the cameras do have a deterrent value, but it is based on a false threat.
You know, one easy thing you can do to combat these damn things is get in the habit of lowering your sun visor when approaching a monitored intersection. If you sit up straight behind the wheel and just barely peek below the sun visor so you can see the light, it will be difficult for the camera to take a good picture of your face. If everybody did this we could beat this thing!
Let me guess, the fact that it was yellow and not red makes no difference when going through the intersection..it turned red while I went through the intersection..probably get the $124 dumb dumb
fine….is there any defense other than pleading insanity?
Just moved to wonderful Puyallup, going through a divorce, and now this….
Any break or am I screwed?