We reported yesterday that Autocar UK had "found" top secret renderings of a forthcoming RWD coupe being jointly developed by Toyota and Subaru. Well, today we have confirmation from the two firms that the new coupe is definitely in the works. A joint press release tells us, "The compact rear wheel-drive sports car is envisioned to offer a new 'fun to drive' experience based on an all-new vehicle platform." The release also confirms that Subaru's boxer four will be the only initial engine offering, and that production will begin in 2010. [Ed: there's that number again.] Subaru will launch first, sometime late in 2010, while the Toyota version will not be available until 2011. Watch this space for official images and further details as they become available.
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I am willing to bet both versions will hit the market before the Chevy Volt, prehaps even before the new Camaro ;.)
Now I’m torn…
a. Sell my Outback because I no longer believe in what makes Subaru special.
b. Keep it because it’s destined to be a “classic,” referred to as “from the days before Toyota stripped the soul from Subaru.”
It’s saving grace is that it still has a Boxer. The unfortunate part is that the Toyota looks way better in the rendering – less of a smoothed over Tiburon. Boo.
A smooth 4 cylinder in a light RWD coupe maybe sedan sounds great.
And I thought subaru said that awd was so important that they wouldn’t make it just an option… but i still am liking the concept… i just have a grudge (-=
DearS,
Hyundai Genesis Coupe. Due later this year/early next year.
Genesis Coupe is 3500lbs. Not what I’d call light. The “Boxer” engine consumes oil, so no thanks. Toyota is going to have many blown engines because Toyota owners don’t expect to have to add oil in between changes.
Huy:
Toyota is going to have many blown engines because Toyota owners don’t expect to have to add oil in between changes.
Tell that to my 1995 Toyota Celica GT with the 2.2-liter four-banger. It has burned oil since 104,000 miles displayed on the odometer. Now I have 211,000, which is good, but I didn’t get there without lots of Lucas and Restore.
A smooth 4 cylinder in a light RWD coupe maybe sedan sounds great.
It ain’t gonna be light, and with a boxer engine, it ain’t gonna be smooth.
At least here in Europe there are no light, simple and affordable RWD small cars available, except for maybe the MX-5 which is too small for me as a daily driver because i need some room to put my wheelchair in.
I’ve been waiting for a car like that for ages, and could not care less which compay makes it or how butt ugly it is. To be honest i’ve been wondering why the Koreans don’t make something like that, seeing as they have no good hot hatch and i would imagine people who buy cars like these are more concerned about performance than badges anyway. Plenty of good cars in this segment in Europe, not one of them is RWD. I believe im not the only one looking for a “new AE86”..
Subarus where avaliable with FWD not too long ago, so i don’t see a problem with that either. I would rather have it as RWD than 4WD anyway, despite snowy winters.
It ain’t gonna be light, and with a boxer engine, it ain’t gonna be smooth
Yep. With a Subie motor, you can bet that it will also get poor mileage.
I was so excited about this news when it was leaked yesterday. A small, no-frills, RWD car (coupe or otherwise) is something that I’ve been waiting for. I’ll reserve judgment, but this is looking less promising by the day.
If only the 1 series weighed about 400 lbs less…
I agree with a few of the posts here – Subaru had a FWD heritage too so I do not see the RWD platform as pulling a Saab (when they abandoned hatchbacks).
Also I too would like a small rwd drive vehicle capable of carrying a wheelchair or jogging stroller.
Finally – as for the lightweight comment – I think it is obviously relative, but Subaru has managed to reduce weight in a few of their redesigns. Add to that the fact that this will not have AWD and it should be relatively light.
Finally regarding fuel economy – wow, that is the last thing on my mind when it comes to a car like this.
Subaru needs to get over their AWD only plan if they are going to survive in the era of expensive fuel and rising fuel economy regulations.
AWD always causes a fuel economy penalty.
I don’t get what Subaru brings to the table.
It hasn’t shown any brilliance engineering lightweight platforms, the Impreza is 3000lbs. Does that pass for light these days?
A boxer engine is generally heavier than an inline 4.
The main reason I would buy a Sube is for the AWD.
I think people forgot (and rightfully so, since it was really just a short-lived tech experiment) about the Prodrive P2. Lightweight (built off the diminutive Subaru R1) at around 2500 pounds, powerful, ridiculous – I can only hope for something like that (of course AWD with anti-lag and ATD is a lot to hope for).
Of course, Toyota hasn’t shown its commitment to sports cars, so there’s a fair chance this will ultimately be a RWD Corolla. Whatever it is, it’ll be a niche vehicle (as are all the good ones, really) so I suspect it will have to compete with the Miata for the ever-shrinking pool of enthusiasts.
The Toyota verstion looks bloated – something common to all current Toyota models. I would rather have the CRX (assuming Honda actually makes it)
# huy :
April 10th, 2008 at 5:36 pm
The “Boxer” engine consumes oil, so no thanks. Toyota is going to have many blown engines because Toyota owners don’t expect to have to add oil in between changes.
Huh? Do you have any reason to say that? I have a reason to refute that. It’s my ’99 Impreza RS that has 105,000 miles. Not once have I ever had to top it up with oil. In fact, the engine is as strong as when I bought it new in Oct of ’98, with no issues whatsoever in the almost 10 years I’ve owned it, and I drive it hard.
Boxer engines, especially from Subaru, are bullet proof.
If it has a Subaru boxer, then forget it. I don’t see why Toyota needs Subie for this. The last Celica is probably the best handling/steering front drive car I’ve driven, it just needed work in a lot of other areas. They can do performance, they have just chosen not to lately.
So Boxer 4 engines are not smooth? I thought they where inherently balanced, like Inline 6 engines?
Also I concur the Genesis is not the lightest vehicle and its wheel base is pretty long (nimbleness issues?). Still interesting though.
well, i don’t speak japanese, but i do see 1100kg in the caption. that’s 2425lbs, so this very well could be light in weight.
as for the boxer naysayers–why don’t you like them?
they’ve got a nice, wide torque curve, make very usable power (the torque again), make a cool rumble with the right exhaust…everything an enthusiast could want, right?
even if it did turn out to be a RWD corolla, would that be so bad? with RWD the steering would probably be more than decent. if the suspension is too soft, who cares–lots of enthusiasts upgrade anyway.
i’m just excited to have a RWD anything that isn’t a convertible or mustang or 300c or $40K bimmer.
bring it on! i’m so excited about this
Nemphre :
April 10th, 2008 at 8:34 pm
If it has a Subaru boxer, then forget it. I don’t see why Toyota needs Subie for this. The last Celica is probably the best handling/steering front drive car I’ve driven, it just needed work in a lot of other areas. They can do performance, they have just chosen not to lately.
I think Toyota needs Subaru because of the 2 Subaru has the more compelling sports/sporty cars.
With all due respect, if you think that the last gen Celica was fun, try the Mini – you’ll be blown away.
Still that said a base MX-5 is more fun than the John Cooper Works Super Duper Add Another Word Mini Cooper S any day of the week.
At the end of the day lightweight, rwd cars are hard to be for fun.
I never understood why Toyota didn’t build a solid RWD 2-seater off of a subcompact platform for the US. Miata competition – around here, most new Miatas belong to the +50 crowd, anyway. Right in Toyota’s field.
I’m not saying it needs to compete with a sports car – honestly, what percentage of new sports car owners even squeak a tire on acceleration? Make a FUN, lightweight RWD that’s comfortable enough for daily driving and fun enough for the weekends.
Oh, by the way… T-Tops or a Targa!! Screw the convertibles, they’re all ugly (‘sept the S2000). Bring back the solid glass roofs, damnit!!
So Boxer 4 engines are not smooth? I thought they where inherently balanced, like Inline 6 engines?
On paper, they are. In reality, they feel a straight four with a dead cylinder.
A RWD Japanese sports car weighing in at 3500 lbs + with a heavy 4 cyl engine? I bet pricing will start out at $30k. I’m sure they’ll be lining up in droves by 2010 to buy something like that. Sounds like something GM would do.
On paper, they are. In reality, they feel a straight four with a dead cylinder.
I don’t know about that, but it is “agricultural”. I like it, though. I also like that my Miata’s 1.8L isn’t the most refined. To my ears both engines have a pugnacious character and they both let you know that they intend to be around forever. I’m weird like that, I guess.
@ huy
I’ve had to add oil to my 97 corolla since I bought it in 2002.
My ’98 Impreza 2.2 has 193,000 miles on it. It has never consumed an extra quart of oil ever. Previously, my wife and I had a ’91 Legacy Turbo that we sold with 256,000 miles on it. It never leaked, burned or otherwise lost a drop.
NickNick hit it on the head. The boxer makes very usable power. And I wouldn’t say that the boxer gets terrible gas mileage. It’s not super great, but it’s not horrible. It depends on how you drive it.
I would buy this car. I’ve owned Subarus for more than a decade and the fact that it’s RWD doesn’t offend my sensibilities at all. I don’t know why anyone would think Subaru had betrayed themselves or their customers, or why anyone would be so offended that this car doesn’t come standard with AWD and by the Subaru/Toyota partnership as a whole.
Why would you care so much? Subaru and Toyota certainly don’t care what you think until you express your thoughts with your dollars.
The car looks great, will be reliable and fun to drive. People will buy it. That’s all that matters to them. Mad because you think Subaru has “sold out” to Toyota? Grow up. If you want to continue buying Subarus, you want the partnership to work.
-Matt
Some people have said that cars like these are “the new ponycars”, or the “new Mustangs”, cheap fun cars.
If this is true, please give it a good name. I do not want a vehicle named with a number and a letter. Please give it a real name.
I will continue to post this on succeeding updates until the car comes out.
I’m surprised, shocked and amazed by how many “not a drop on the driveway, not an ounce burned and not a quart bought at a filling station in 3 kabillion miles/years!!” people there are here!
Good news! Return of the hachi-roku! :)
If the top spec version gets turbocharged 2.5 engine, then it will be S13-S14-S15 Silvia SR20DET pleasure again – lightweight, good handling, rwd, turbocharged coupe heaven! :)
The WRX is ~3200 lbs. while the 2.5i weighs in at ~3000 lbs. I think this is extremely light for an AWD sedan with side airbags and a reinforced B pillar which gives the jaws of life trouble.
This coupe should easily be able to hit ~2600 lbs. without AWD and the extra reinforcement/bracing that a sedan requires.
On the issue of boxer engines, if they’re heavier than a typical inline four of the same displacement and power/torque, it’s definitely not by much. Plus, boxer engines are able to be mounted lower in the car and closer to the center, producing a nicer center of gravity and overall F/R weight balance.
If you had to walk five miles with a 20 lb. barbell strapped to your left ankle or a 30 lb. pack strapped to your back, which would you prefer?
A WRX benefits from the AWD since there are components for the rear drive that help evenly distribute the weight and give it a better front/rear weight ratio. A RWD offering would more than likely make it somewhat nose heavy with the boxer engine. Comparing RWD to AWD is irrelevant.
how many current Subaru owners are claiming no oil consumption? i contact subaru and they tell me it is normal. i know a few Subaru tech’s personally and even they tell me its normal. almost everyone i talked to personally had the same issue. a few of them had no oil consumption though. i can only attribute this to poor quality control.
anyways, this car is confirmed for the US market as a Subaru… so far Toyota does not know if they will sell their version of it here. i think they are smart and don’t want to tarnish their reputation.
Come to think of it, my 1991 Celica ST with the 1.6-liter four cylinder also consumed oil — enough to require at least a quart of top-off between changes. Of course, I bought the thing when it already had 211,000 on the odometer; the previous and only owner was an engineer who took meticulous care of it, and it was in great shape. I didn’t figure out the oil consumption until I’d driven it for a few thousand miles.
I guess needing to put oil in my Bimmer a few thousand miles is no biggie.
I bought the corolla with 92 000 kms on it, and it was driven by an elderly man who took care of it. No one could figure out the consumption issue so I just live with it. Unbelievably reliable otherwise.
All modern gasoline engines are designed to work between certain rpm’s. If the car is driven very quietly and only shifted at low rpms (like most oldtimers are driving), then piston rings wont settle properly in and the engine starts to consume oil. So from time to time its recommended to rev the engine close to the limiter.
This car, if done right(and with the amount of prayer I am generating, it will be) is the best that has happened to Subaru since the outback saved their ass in the 90’s. The Impreza is lying in it’s grave , too much money and ugly as hell. Not to mention it revitilizez toyata(yawn :0 ) line up. The fact is this is the start of a great relationship that both companies desperetly need. Toyota also wants Subaru’s battery knowledge for the hybrids, so there is a lot more down the road. Thank you GM for droping Subaru!