TTAC's monthly By The Numbers editorial tracks everything from fuel-sucking SUVs to the gas-sipping Prius. In this month's report, the sales stat were bleak almost across the board. Almost, but not quite. Economy car sales are, as you'd expect, relatively robust. To bring a little joy to readers fed-up with a steady stream of bad news, I decided to chart new car sales for subcompacts and compacts from the "Big 6:" Chrysler, Ford, GM, Honda, Nissan and Toyota. The stats run for all of '07, and year-to-date. Here's how the so-called bottom of the automotive food chain is looking, with review links and inventory levels thrown-in for good measure…
Subcompacts
Honda's Fit is giving the competition fits. Sales of Jonny Lieberman's favorite sub-compact are up a whopping 61.4 percent over last March. Annual sales are even more impressive: jumping some 77 percent over last year. Hard to believe, but the Toyota Yaris did even better on the month, clocking-in with a 70.1 percent increase. The car RF said "isn't a pig to drive" didn't do quite as well on the year, rising "only" 58.3% over the first three months. Nissan's Versa is picking-up steam too. It was up 24.6 percent for March and 20.5 percent for the year. The good news ended at Chevy dealers' doors. The Korean-built Chevy Aveo's sales were way down– a 45.6 percent drop from last March. Annual sales of PJ's whipping post are down 19.2 percent from this time last year.
The inventory levels for these mighty mites reflect their sales show. Chevy started April with a 113-day supply of Aveos. Honda only stocked enough Fits to last 27 days, and Nissan's supply of Versas would last 53 days. Toyota doesn't break out individual models in their inventory numbers, but they started the month with a 51-day supply of cars and trucks.
Compact
Compact sales look equally robust, with a couple of surprising exceptions. The Dodge Caliber went up 10.1 percent in March and is 15.2 percent ahead of last year. Ford's Focus is in SYNC, with a 24 percent jump in March and a 23.2 percent gain over 2007 year to date. The Honda Civic finished the month 10.2 percent ahead of last March and up 13.8 percent on last year. The compact-in-name-only Nissan Sentra had a strong showing, increasing 12.8 percent in March and 20.5 percent for the year to date.
The surprises: the Chevy Cobalt and Toyota Corolla. Both showed sales decreases in March. Sales of the car Chris Paukert called "a solid set-up man" (back in 2005) dropped 23.8 percent. The Corolla fell even further, down 26.9 percent. For the year to date, Cobalt's still holding its own, with a 14.5 percent increase over last year. Corolla's sales so far this year are down 24 percent.
As with the subcompacts, inventory levels of the compacts reflect the monthly sales. April began with a 48-day supply of Calibers and a 54-day supply of Foci on dealers' lots. Honda dealers started the month with a 52-day supply of Civic. The Sentra started the month with the ideal 60-day level. Chevy faced April Fool's Day with a 75-day supply of Cobalts. Just like with the Yaris, the inventory level for the Corolla wasn't available.
The Future
You'll see a flurry of activity in the subcompact and compact segment over the next few years, particularly from the American manufacturers. They've all but ignored these markets while chasing truck profits, with two not even playing in the subcompact segment. And now it's coming back to haunt them. With the 35-mpg CAFE standard looming on the horizon, The Big 2.8 have put their small car skates on.
Ford's decision to make SYNC an option on the Focus (rather than limiting the technology to their more expensive vehicles) and the forthcoming importation of the new Fiesta reflect this new priority. Chrysler's deal with Nissan will give them a Japanese-built small car in a couple of years; their partnership with Chery should bear fruit soon. GM's focusing a lot of attention on GMDAT, their corporate small car nexus.
While they play catch-up, China and/or India could well send a bevy of small cars to our shores. And Toyandasan and friends aren't aren't sitting back watching by the market segment they dominate lip away. They'll keep improving their products to maintain their lead. The end result: an American small car renaissance. It is, in fact, the silver lining.
It should be noted that the Corolla is in the middle of a model changeover. Its sales last year were astronomically high, beating the Civic regularly, despite being in the sixth year of its model run. Now those previous gen models are running low and have not yet all been replaced on dealer lots by the ’09s.
More and more people are growing to love my Fit. Once people get inside and realize that they usually have more room than whatever they are driving, they realize i’m not quite the idiot they make me out to be.
Anything on the Mazda 3?
Steve_S
Anything on the Mazda 3?
Down 19 percent for March, down 15.1 percent for the year.
I never understood the appeal of subcompact and compact cars. Fits are going for 17k OTD and the high demand for these types of vehicles will only drive prices up! If you’re looking to save money, why not buy a used Camcord for even less money (and more comfort)? With the money you save you could invest it in oil or gold or whatever and donate it to charity? And besides, when you’re buying used, it’s greener because used cars don’t require new resources. Fits and Versas and Yarises are gross!!!
In my opinion, both the Corolla and Civic redos have passed the sweet spot and are now too big for what they’re good at. The Fit, on the other hand, is awesome.
The Cobalt, of course, sucks. Just really awful. Most of us end up having to rent one of these from time to time on business – it’s a really stupid thing for GM to do, because it makes it all the more obvious how awful they are.
My sad decision to have to hold my nose and go back up to being a 2-car family is now between a 2nd Prius and a Fit, and I haven’t been able to convince my wife how great the Fit is; the Civic/Corolla fail almost immediately on the spreadsheet.
-15% for the mazda3? What a shame!
It doesn’t have very good fuel economy for its class (an issue shared with the VW Golf and the Impreza), but it a much better car than the Sentra, Cobalt, Caliber, and (-gasp-) civic, in my opinion.
romanjetfighter :
That’s ok. Some of us can’t understand the appeal of driving big cars. They’re harder to park in an urban environment, no fun to drive and performance is usually limited to straight line acceleration (gross generalizations so no need to waste time correcting me here). Different strokes. Enjoy *your* ride.
edit: I notice based on your posting in another thread that you don’t drive yet…
M1EK :
I agree about the Civic and Corolla. They sit right about where previous generation Accords and Camrys once sat. Maybe at some point, they’ll “right size” them. Honda’s done this before with the Accord.
AKM :
I’ve heard nothing but praise for the Mazda 3 (aside from the relatively poor mileage). I hope Mazda can do something about the mileage so this car gets more loving. To some extent I think shoppers may be buying based on what the mileage is to the exclusion of some other factors.
@romanjetfighter
just for the record, my fit purchase had nothing to do with being green or lessening my carbon footprint. If you can find a car that is cheaper, roomier, more reliable and more fun to drive than a Fit, I’ll send you a dollar.
Where’s Hyundai? This is territory where Hyundai Excels (pun intended) and provides a decent Accent (again, intended) to their climbing North American market share. Indeed, I bet a decent number of compacts from Tuscon to Santa Fe are Hyundais! These higher gas prices have really provided a Genesis for Hyundai in the largest auto market in the world (aren’t I a pun master!)
Please note that Corolla sales include the Matrix so its actual sales numbers are never broken out between the two models.
I can’t think of any, Andy, but check this out: Civic gets the same mpg combined but has like 30 more horsepower and 20 more lb/ft!!
romanjetfighter :
– It’s less expensive than the Civic.
– It handles better
– City mileage is higher.
– It’s available as a hatchback.
– The interior is specifically designed to offer more versatility.
HP/TQ figures are not the only measure of a vehicles’ worth and, on their own, are certainly not a primary indicator of how much fun a vehicle is to drive.
Good editorial, Frank. Though it has been interesting to follow the models you’ve been covering routinely in this series, it’s refreshing to see different models that are doing well.
Hmmmmm….
Focus up 24% YTD
Corolla down 24% YTD
Hmmmm…
Ford better break out another roll of duct tape.
I would like to see some absolute numbers. It is interesting to see what goes up and down, but that has to be set in relation to the actual sales numbers.
The Fit is a really neat car. I almost got it. Shame about the lack of a telescoping steering wheel as otherwise it’s a nice car. It handles OK, but the Civic is more of a driver’s car. I’d still take it for its versatility.
The Versa has a nice interior to boot- if I didn’t care so much about driving and I cared more about hauling friends than cargo it’d be my first choice. I like that you can at least get the Versa with an driver’s side arm rest and front map lights. Shame that it’s hecho en Mexico.
Also, the Fit is only cheaper if you’re paying upfront for it or have your own financing. Honda dealers have far more incentives on the Civics than on the Fits. In fact, the Fit is pretty pricey when you top it out.
The best cars in the compact class (Mazda3, Civic, Fit, Golf… that’s about all sad to say) are those that don’t feel like cheap cars. In the case of the Mazda3 and Fit it’s really the fun-to-drive factor that sets them apart, whereas with the Civic it’s versatility, and the Golf I think it’s the interior.
In any event, they don’t feel like cheap cars from behind the wheel. For comparison, I tried out a new Cobalt a couple of years ago and it broke during the test drive. The seat slider lever stopped holding the seat in place and I drove back to the dealership bracing one foot against the footwell.
How much of the Fit’s gain is due to them shipping more over here? Because they used to only give us 15k a year. My parents waited 7(!) months to get their ’07 Fit last year.
I’ve been busy trying my best to figure out how to downsize our 2nd car, but can’t seem to come up with any way since we want to be able to tow our 1400 pound pop-up camper we bought new last year.
At least I can take some comfort (pun intended) in the fact that the 2009 Sonata can tow 1500 pounds and the overall MPG difference is only 3.5 mpg worse than the Accent, per the EPA, for the 4 cylinder Sonata. (Not including towing, during which the MPG drops to the low 20’s on our 2007 Sonata). The new 2009 Sonata gains an extra gear in the automatic, gains 15 horsepower and some all important torque, and gains 1 mpg over the 2008 car (virtually identical to our 2007). This does not relate to the 2007 – 2008 EPA mpg alterations.
Though the Hyundai Elantra and Toyota Corolla are both “rated” at 1500 pounds, the cars are simply too light for the RV, since when I use the Sonata (which weighs in several hundred pounds more than the Corolla), it is “borderline”.
Besides, despite how much I really love my Prius, the 2009 Corolla interior absolutely SUCKS. Cheap. I think they hired the Chrysler plastics suppliers, for those nasty door panels. Yeuch.
On the other hand the 2009 Sonata is significantly upgraded on the interior compared to the 2007 we now have on lease.
I guess I’m getting old enough to now only not want to sleep on the ground (hence, the pop-up), but I am getting used to having a tad of comfort and am willing to give up 3.5 mpg for it.
Most people aren’t going to consider a Sonata four cylinder as a competitive small car, though. In fact, it is rated as “full sized” and by gosh, it is, too! Huge interior and trunk.
Some small possibility of us getting a Subaru Forester, which pulls 2400 pounds. I don’t like the idea of losing the extra 2 mpg compared to the upgraded 2009 Sonata, but the all wheel drive would be a nice bonus in Michigan.
I suppose I “could” just get a Camry Hybrid and pray that it doesn’t bust while towing (it’s not rated to tow more than 1000 pounds). Toyota haven’t screwed up the Camry interior (yet).
My wife did take a look at a Honda Fit when we were out walking our Newfoundland and commented on it. She quite liked it (so do I) but when she asked what it’ll tow, I said “zero”. No point, then. (Prius is rated to pull “zero” as well).
The 2009 Sonata would make the best used car bargain once the new Sonata comes out and resale values tank even more!!
The Aveo is a crap car with by far the worst fuel economy in it’s class. It deserves to die.
Frank Williams:
The surprises: the Chevy Cobalt and Toyota Corolla. Both showed sales decreases in March. Sales of the car Chris Paukert called “a solid set-up man” (back in 2005) dropped 23.8 percent. The Corolla fell even further, down 26.9 percent. For the year to date, Cobalt’s still holding its own, with a 14.5 percent increase over last year. Corolla’s sales so far this year are down 24 percent.
As with the subcompacts, inventory levels of the compacts reflect the monthly sales. April began with a 48-day supply of Calibers and a 54-day supply of Foci on dealers’ lots. Honda dealers started the month with a 52-day supply of Civic. The Sentra started the month with the ideal 60-day level. Chevy faced April Fool’s Day with a 75-day supply of Cobalts. Just like with the Yaris, the inventory level for the Corolla wasn’t available.
As thoroughly explained in March Sales editorial:
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/by-the-numbers-sales-march-off-a-cliff/comment-page-3/#comments
Corolla sales are down entirely because of a model changeover. Production numbers for the Corolla are down compared to last year, which is factual proof that the model changeover is still on-going and factories continue to ramp up. Knowing this, the decrease in Corolla sales certainly should not be a “surprise”.
Also with the Cobalt, it should be no surprise either seeing how uncompetitive the car is. I predict a lot of Cobalt buyers are going for a Focus instead.
jaje:
Please note that Corolla sales include the Matrix so its actual sales numbers are never broken out between the two models.
Please note that the Matrix is essentially a Corolla wagon. Honda never separates Accord sedan and Accord Coupe sales, for example but it’s the same car, only different variants. There’s nothing wrong with lumping Matrix sales together with the Corolla.
Ralph SS:
Hmmmmm….
Focus up 24% YTD
Corolla down 24% YTD
Hmmmm…
Hmmmmm…
Corolla production is down due to the new model changeover.
Toyota dealers currently have waiting lists for the new Corolla.
Could it be that Corolla sales right now are supply limited due to the model changeover?
Hmmmmm…
menno:
Besides, despite how much I really love my Prius, the 2009 Corolla interior absolutely SUCKS. Cheap. I think they hired the Chrysler plastics suppliers, for those nasty door panels. Yeuch.
The 2009 Corolla has better interior materials and better fit and finish than the previous generation, but to each their own I guess.
romanjetfighter :
– It’s less expensive than the Civic.
– It handles better
– City mileage is higher.
– It’s available as a hatchback.
– The interior is specifically designed to offer more versatility.
You forgot to mention that according to EURONCAP the Fit isn’t nearly as safe as the Civic, Mazda3, Prius…oh, wait, that wasn’t the point you’re trying to make.
It is my point, though; as someone who would have loved to buy a Fit, I was disappointed to see the relatively poor crash test scores it garnered from EURONCAP:
Fit — 29/31/19
Yaris — 35/34/18
Civic — 32/39/24
Mazda3 — 33/32/15
Astra — 34/39/3*
Corolla — 34/39/23
Golf — 33/37/19
Prius — 34/43/13
*tsk tsk, Opel!
Obviously many the other cars in this list are more expensive, and don’t get quite as good gas mileage — but the Yaris kicks the Fit’s backside, too.
As a driver, I’d love to have a Fit; it’s a lightweight, fun, roomy little car. As a parent, though, I simply can’t do it when there are better small car choices out there.
I recently had a pontiac G5 / Chevy Aveo inflicted on me by National Rent-a-car.
What was there to like?
Roof too low for my head with sunroof.
Visibility terrible.
Wipers that didn’t wipe (well).
A driver’s seat that can only be adjusted when the driver’s side door is open…
An E-Brake that can not be pulled when the driver’s arm-rest is down, and cannot comfortably be pulled when the driver’s arm-rest is up.
At least the steering and handling were acceptable. And the HVAC controls have been borrowed from the design of a 1980 Accord – making them suitably comprehensible.
Oh, my favorite – A trunk designed so that the largest bag it will accept is a carry-on for air travel.
So glad I get the opportunity to experience quality “American” cars on a regular basis.
Who’s buying these besides rental agencies?
At least it was only $10 per day.
davejay :
You’re right. That’s not the point I was trying to make. For a car that debuted in 2001 the ratings aren’t horrific though. I’m interested to see what the ratings are on the 2nd gen Fit which should be hitting the US in the Fall.
Johnson: Corolla sales are down entirely because of a model changeover. Production numbers for the Corolla are down compared to last year, which is factual proof that the model changeover is still on-going and factories continue to ramp up. Knowing this, the decrease in Corolla sales certainly should not be a “surprise”.
Exactly how long is this model changeover supposed to take? There were 2009 Corollas, ready for sale, at the Philadelphia, Washington, D.C., and Harrisburg auto shows back in January. The car has been out for months now.
Johnson: Please note that the Matrix is essentially a Corolla wagon. Honda never separates Accord sedan and Accord Coupe sales, for example but it’s the same car, only different variants. There’s nothing wrong with lumping Matrix sales together with the Corolla.
But Toyota is MARKETING them as two different cars. If I recall correctly, there are no “Corolla” badges on the Matrix.
Honda never separates the Accord coupe and sedan because both are clearly badged as Accords, and they are sold as two body styles of the same car. Toyota is marketing the Matrix and Corolla as two separate car lines.
Based on your logic, we should group sales of the Cobalt, G5 and HHR together, because they are all based on the same platform and share drivetrains, and the G5 is a badge-engineered version of the Cobalt. (It’s entirely plausible that the G5 is swiping sales from the Cobalt, because most people have figured out that they are the same car, and thus will cross-shop Pontiac-Buick-GMC and Chevrolet dealers to get the best deal.)
Also note that the HHR is essentially the wagon version of the Cobalt/G5.
THE FIT IS GO!!!!!!
And Roman Jet Fighter – I can’t believe anyone will actually pay $17,000 for a Fit. I didn’t see a single car in the dealership with that kind of mark up.
romanjetfighter,
The resale values on the Hyundai Sonata are much better than most, if not all, of the domestics in the same class now.
Add to it Hyundai isn’t going to release an all new Sonata for at least 2 to 3 years and your point is moot.
I am curious to see the numbers on the Elantra and Accent though…the Elantra’s numbers would probably be down a bit due to the recent change over.
Just remember folks, the old Excel used Mitsu engines and transmissions.
cretinx: a Fit Sport lists at $19580 on Honda Canada’s website, before Freight/PDI ($1250!).
If it is much less in the US then we are (once again) getting jobbed.
The Matrix is technically named the Toyota Corolla Matrix (as stated in places like the owner’s manual), although it is not badged or advertised as such. It is basically a Corolla station wagon, though (same engine, same transmission, same size, same platform, etc.), so whether or not this is a “cheat” can be argued either way.
geeber:
Exactly how long is this model changeover supposed to take? There were 2009 Corollas, ready for sale, at the Philadelphia, Washington, D.C., and Harrisburg auto shows back in January. The car has been out for months now.
Seeing at at autoshows is one thing; seeing it at dealerships available to buy is something else. Just because you saw it at an autoshow doesn’t mean it’s on sale.
The 2009 Corolla launched late January, but most dealers did not start to receive their Corollas until February. There were many winter storms in February throughout the US, which delayed many dealers from getting the new Corolla. Even last month in March, not all dealers yet had the Corolla in stock.
Then there is also the fact that Toyota has been ramping up production a bit more slowly then usual in order to catch any quality issues.
Once again, you can look at Toyota’s March sales results to see that the Corolla was limited by supply, not demand:
http://pressroom.toyota.com/Releases/View?id=TYT2008040198482
Roughly 22K Corollas (and Matrix) vehicles were built in the US in March. Roughly 25K were sold for the month. That means a few thousand were imported from overseas factories.
geeber:
But Toyota is MARKETING them as two different cars. If I recall correctly, there are no “Corolla” badges on the Matrix.
Honda never separates the Accord coupe and sedan because both are clearly badged as Accords, and they are sold as two body styles of the same car. Toyota is marketing the Matrix and Corolla as two separate car lines.
Based on your logic, we should group sales of the Cobalt, G5 and HHR together, because they are all based on the same platform and share drivetrains, and the G5 is a badge-engineered version of the Cobalt. (It’s entirely plausible that the G5 is swiping sales from the Cobalt, because most people have figured out that they are the same car, and thus will cross-shop Pontiac-Buick-GMC and Chevrolet dealers to get the best deal.)
Also note that the HHR is essentially the wagon version of the Cobalt/G5.
Years ago, when the Matrix first came out, Toyota DID call it the “Corolla Matrix” several times, even though it didn’t have Corolla badges. In some cases, Toyota still does call it the “Corolla Matrix”.
Would you also say the same thing about the Solara? It’s nothing more than a Camry coupe, only with a different name. Is it wrong for Toyota to combine Solara sales with Camry sales? What if the Accord Coupe went by another name? Would it be wrong to combine it with Accord sedan sales?
The G5 should not exist in the first place, but yes there would be nothing wrong with combining G5 sales with the Cobalt because they are the SAME car, only different badges. I also would not see anything wrong with combining HHR sales with Cobalt sales.
Ford now markets the heavy duty F-Series variants as only “Super Duty”. You can find tiny F-Series badges on the vehicles, but they are no longer marketed as F250, F350, etc. Does that mean that Ford should now separate Super Duty sales from F-Series sales just because a difference in marketing?
The Matrix and Corolla are built at the same factories on the same assembly lines. They may be marketed differently, but they are essentially the same vehicles and internally to Toyota they are the same, which is why their sales are combined in Toyota’s results.
The G5, Cobalt, and HHR are essentially the SAME vehicles. I don’t know for sure if they’re built on the same assembly lines or in the same factories. It’s GM’s choice whether it groups Cobalt and HHR sales together or not. GM chose at their own risk to make several rebadges of the Cobalt.
Really it’s up to the automaker as to whether group together sales of certain variants or not. Marketing is just that; marketing. If Toyota put a tiny “Corolla” badge onto the Matrix then your whole argument would not stand up. Besides, as it stands the Matrix is still referred to as the “Corolla Matrix” by Toyota.
$17000 for a Fit is pretty common in Seattle area. Especially if you include the arrogant dealer markup, er, excuse me, “adjusted market value” of +$1500 to $2000 or so. Civic Si is about $24000 with markup. I won’t pay it, and won’t begin to negotiate without them crossing it off first thing. But plenty of people do.
Johnson: Seeing at at autoshows is one thing; seeing it at dealerships available to buy is something else. Just because you saw it at an autoshow doesn’t mean it’s on sale.
These Corollas were available for sale.
Johnson: There were many winter storms in February throughout the US, which delayed many dealers from getting the new Corolla.
All dealers were affected by this – unless it only snowed on Toyota dealers – so that’s not quite a convincing reason.
Johnson: Years ago, when the Matrix first came out, Toyota DID call it the “Corolla Matrix” several times, even though it didn’t have Corolla badges. In some cases, Toyota still does call it the “Corolla Matrix”.
But how is Toyota marketing it to the public? If I recall correctly, the original Mustang was considered a “special Falcon” within Ford (and this extended to parts numbers), but it was never marketed that way to the public, and no one would have ever have considered lumping the sales figures for the Falcon in with those of the Mustang.
Johnson: Ford now markets the heavy duty F-Series variants as only “Super Duty”. You can find tiny F-Series badges on the vehicles, but they are no longer marketed as F250, F350, etc. Does that mean that Ford should now separate Super Duty sales from F-Series sales just because a difference in marketing?
Actually, Ford should, because the differences between those two lines of trucks are fairly significant. This isn’t a case of putting a different body style on the same platform and marketing it as a entirely separate vehicle (as it is with the Matrix and HHR, or even the Solara).
They both happen to be big pickups, but, to me, these are very different vehicles. It’s as though Toyota decided to group sales for the Avalon and Camry together because it is now selling the Avalon as part of the “C-Series” of family sedans.
Johnson: If Toyota put a tiny “Corolla” badge onto the Matrix then your whole argument would not stand up.
Toyota didn’t place a “Corolla” badge of any size on the Matrix, so my argument does stand up.
Let’s deal with this situation as it really exists, not with imaginary scenarios.
Toyota obviously considers the two vehicles to be distinct vehicle lines, not two body styles of the same vehicle (as Honda does with the Accord). To me, they should be counted as separate vehicle lines for sales purposes, just as the Cobalt, HHR and G5 are.
If we are going to use a standard for determining total sales – by badge or by platform – then let’s do it consistently for ALL car makers. If we include the Matrix’s sales figures in with those of the Corolla, then we should logically include sales of the HHR and G5 in with the Cobalt’s sales totals.
geeber-
the G5 is a Pontiac, you cant include it in Chevy sales. That simply makes no sense. If Chevy called the HHR a Cobalt HHR, then it should be included as the same model, but they dont, so it isnt. (You said to keep it real.)
Now my Matrix had a very clear label on its Owner’s handbook that said “Corolla Matrix.” Therefore, it was a Corolla. It does not matter that there was no badge on the car. There was no Oldsmobile badge on an Aurora. Does that mean it was not an Olds?
Heavy Duty pickups (Ford, Chevy, GMC, and Dodge) are completely different from the mainstream models, yet ALL of them are added together in monthly sales. Without GMC’s HD sales being broken out, the Tundra might actually be the number 4 truck in sales. But you dont see Toyota complaining.
Also, Chevy used to combine Corsica and Beretta sales. I dont remember the Beretta ever being labelled a Corsica Beretta, yet it was clearly a 2 door Corsica.
Add how about models that have nothing in common but share the same name. The last gen Civic had a hatchback version. Built in England, it had little in common with the 2 and 4 door versions that were sold alongside it, carrying the same moniker.
How about the Mazda Protege and Protege5? Technically a different name. Definitely different sheetmetal. And you never once saw them advertised together. Will the Passat CC be counted with the Passat, now that VW has decided to drop the Passat from the name. Who knows? Where do you draw the line?
If a mfr says it is the same car, it is the same car. You can argue that until you are blue in the face, and it wont change anything. But it is disingenuous for someone (person, mag, blog) to make those assumptions on their own, especially since there will NEVER be a standard as to which cars get broken out from which other ones.
Mazda 3 sales are likely down due to it being an old model. people have lost interest.
marc: the G5 is a Pontiac, you cant include it in Chevy sales. That simply makes no sense. If Chevy called the HHR a Cobalt HHR, then it should be included as the same model, but they dont, so it isnt. (You said to keep it real.)
The argument was that the Matrix and Corolla are based on the same platform, so their sales should be grouped together, even though Toyota clearly markets them as different car lines. If we apply that standard to Toyota – base sales on closely related vehicles that share a platform – we should apply that standard to GM, and thus group the sales of the Cobalt, G5 and HHR together. They are as closely related as the Corolla and Matrix are.
marc: Now my Matrix had a very clear label on its Owner’s handbook that said “Corolla Matrix.” Therefore, it was a Corolla. It does not matter that there was no badge on the car.
I would disagree. If Toyota wanted it to be considered as a Corolla by the public, it could put the badge on the car.
marc: There was no Oldsmobile badge on an Aurora. Does that mean it was not an Olds?
The plan was to phase out the Oldsmobile name, and rename the division “Aurora.” Hence, the absence of the Olds nameplate or symbol on the exterior of the first-year Aurora. (It did have an Oldsmobile “rocket” on the radio faceplate.)
So, yes, it does prove that initially GM did not consider the car to be an Oldsmobile. It was to be the flagship of the Aurora Division that was supposed to rise from the ashes of Oldsmobile.
With typical GM waffling, the corporation later abandoned the name-change plan, and put Oldsmobile badges on the exterior of the car. The second-generation Aurora featured more prominent badges on the exterior, along with the Oldsmobile nameplate.
marc: Heavy Duty pickups (Ford, Chevy, GMC, and Dodge) are completely different from the mainstream models, yet ALL of them are added together in monthly sales. Without GMC’s HD sales being broken out, the Tundra might actually be the number 4 truck in sales. But you dont see Toyota complaining.
Whether Toyota complains, or how it would rank if the reporting were to be revised, does not concern me. I consider these heavy-duty pickups to be different vehicles from their lighter-duty brethern. Their sales should be reported separately. If the Tundra moves up in the rankings among pickup truck sales because of this – that is fine with me. I want accurate results.
marc: If a mfr says it is the same car, it is the same car. You can argue that until you are blue in the face, and it wont change anything. But it is disingenuous for someone (person, mag, blog) to make those assumptions on their own, especially since there will NEVER be a standard as to which cars get broken out from which other ones.
The problem with the Matrix and Corolla is that Toyota is sending out messages that could best be described as mixed as to whether they are in the same car line, or two separate lines.
Toyota, it seems, wants to have its cake and eat it, too, with these models.
The Fit is in fact 17k! That’s alot of dough. On Edmunds’ forums, here are some prices people have been quoted this month: $16,413, $16,505, $16,491, $16,133. This is all for the Sport model, before TTL. It’s in its last year and it’s still selling like crazy. I went to Malaysia 3-4 years ago and these things were taxis, alongside ox-carts and rickshaws (might be exaggerating a bit). People slam the C and E for being German taxis, but no one seems to mind that their Fit has been an old taxi in Malaysia for years as the Jazz. It’s a pretty car (I like black) but these subcompacts are not worth the money, considering there’s plenty of deals to be had on lightly used cars with a more substantial feel.
Here’s the link for the forum: http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f0a848d
jthorner-“The Aveo is a crap car with by far the worst fuel economy in it’s class. It deserves to die.”
Add worst in class acceleration. The mpg in most road tests (I’ve seen 23-28mpg) is strictly mid-size territory. Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeew.
I noticed GM can’t get a sales rise in a class where nearly anything sells.
Just a thought, the Yaris is in strike range of being a top 20 seller. Little doubt that it already is at retail.
Frankly, I think I would take a Fit over a Civic.
Love the packaging, real world mpg is better and the handling is hot.
Cheerio,
Bunter
Now my Matrix had a very clear label on its Owner’s handbook that said “Corolla Matrix.” Therefore, it was a Corolla. It does not matter that there was no badge on the car.
I think this is a great solution for GM.
For example, this is how we can fix Chevrolet: We’ll just call every car a Malibu. They’ll have the Malibu Aveo, Malibu Cobalt, Malibu Malibu (take that, Duran Duran!), Malibu Impala, Malibu Suburban, Malibu Tahoe, Malibu Corvette, Malibu Silverado and the rest. They’ll just include the Malibu reference in the owner’s manual, but not badge the car with it.
This will be terrific for business. Ask the GM PR guys about Malibu sales, and they’ll be able to say that they’re just fantastic: “Sure, last year, we sold more than 2.2 million Malibus! We’re killing everyone!”
Or you could just agree with Geeber on this, because his point is valid. The Matrix is marketed as a separate vehicle, so it makes sense to count them separately. Obviously, Toyota believes that it is important to make a branding distinction, otherwise they would have just called it a Corolla Sportwagon.
Pch101: For example, this is how we can fix Chevrolet: We’ll just call every car a Malibu. They’ll have the Malibu Aveo, Malibu Cobalt, Malibu Malibu (take that, Duran Duran!), Malibu Impala, Malibu Suburban, Malibu Tahoe, Malibu Corvette, Malibu Silverado and the rest. They’ll just include the Malibu reference in the owner’s manual, but not badge the car with it.
This will be terrific for business. Ask the GM PR guys about Malibu sales, and they’ll be able to say that they’re just fantastic: “Sure, last year, we sold more than 2.2 million Malibus! We’re killing everyone!”
Oh no, please don’t give GM any ideas! They are probably desperate enough to try this.
End of February of this year I wanted to test drive the new Corolla XRS with stick shift. My dealership confirmed that all they had available were auto Corolla S and LE. The XRS wasn’t available yet from the factory in stick (For either the Matrix or Corolla). And this particular dealership didn’t have any XRS models yet at all. So at least as of a month ago not all models were even being made yet. At least according to my dealer.
geeber-
“If we apply that standard to Toyota – base sales on closely related vehicles that share a platform – we should apply that standard to GM, and thus group the sales of the Cobalt, G5 and HHR together. They are as closely related as the Corolla and Matrix are.”
Wrong, you cant include the G5, because it is sold by Pontiac. Otherwise you would have to lump the Camry/ES together. Or even closer, the Fusion/Milan/Zephyr (MK whatever). Or the Silverado/Sierra. No one is saying those should be added. It’s not a valid argument.
“If Toyota wanted it to be considered as a Corolla by the public, it could put the badge on the car.”
You’re entitled to your opinion. It does not change the fact that the car is clearly identified as a Corolla.
“The plan was to phase out the Oldsmobile name, and rename the division “Aurora.” Hence, the absence of the Olds nameplate or symbol on the exterior of the first-year Aurora. (It did have an Oldsmobile “rocket” on the radio faceplate.)…”
All speculative. I remember the era as vividly as you, and the speculation about that was rampant. But it was an Olds despite the lack of labels. I’m sure the bill of sale, the owner’s maual, et al said Olds.
“I consider these heavy-duty pickups to be different vehicles from their lighter-duty brethern. Their sales should be reported separately. If the Tundra moves up in the rankings among pickup truck sales because of this – that is fine with me. I want accurate results.”
I’m glad we agree here. If this were the case, I might change my opinion on the Corolla/Matrix :)
“The problem with the Matrix and Corolla is that Toyota is sending out messages that could best be described as mixed as to whether they are in the same car line, or two separate lines.”
I dont think the messages are any more mixed than that the Corolla has two distict variants that appeal to different people and are thus marketed separately.
What about VW Rabbit/GTI/R32. Should they be combined? Granted the sheetmetal is largely the same, yet they are marketed separately, but they are combined. Porschedadds the Boxster and Cayman together. MINI separates the Cooper from the Cooper S (?) THERE IS NO LOGIC. And certainly no standard. At least the Matrix is a Corolla.
pch101-
Olsmobile did exactly that with the Cutlass name. Supreme, Calais, Ciera. Completely different cars on different platforms. But they did not add them together. The Corolla and Matrix share the same make, model designation, platform and engines, enough to consider them the same car. So while the post was funny, it really doesnt change the argument. Now had they called the last Malibu Maxx just the Maxx, they still could have (and would have) counted it alongside the Malibu in sales.
At one time, there WAS a Corolla Wagon that looked like a Corolla with a backpack. The reason that Matrix sales are folded into Corolla sales is probably just for historical purposes.
What difference does it make? Toyota makes money, GM loses it. Shifting the Matrix to a different line won’t make a difference in that.
So while the post was funny, it really doesnt change the argument.
Sorry, but the argument is not compelling. The two cars are marketed under different nameplates, and being offered with separate identities.
As they are presented to the public, they are two different vehicles. If the manufacturer truly perceived them as having similar positioning, they would have both been given the same name.
I’ll add my two cents on the Corolla issue. When I started shopping for a new car in February, in Michigan, Corollas had not yet arrived on the local dealership’s lots. Even in March they only had a couple, and in early March they were still clearing out ’08 Corollas.
Finally, they’ve now got more samples on the lots. However, it’s still a problem to find the Corolla S (the “sport” model) with a stick-shift; most area dealers don’t have them. In the end, the car I bought had to be shipped from Ohio (granted, stick-shifts are generally rarer, and I was also somewhat picky about options and colour).
I have to say that I’m very impressed with mine so far. It’s a very impressive vehicle, and still reasonably compact. Obviously, they’ve grown over the years, but the ’09 Corolla is still the better part of a foot shorter than my old 1995 Camry. It’s my first brand-new car, and I agonized a fair bit about it, but I’m quite happy. I think it will still be a strong sales success, even with a cheapish look to some of the plastics (after all, it has great feature content). I’d have to add that I think it’s getting a bit of a bum rap for the electric power steering; it’s an odd sensation at first, but after 200 miles, I barely notice it anymore, even on twistier roads.
marc: Wrong, you cant include the G5, because it is sold by Pontiac. Otherwise you would have to lump the Camry/ES together.
That’s not a comparable example. The G5 is a badge-engineered version of the Cobalt. The ES is more than a badge-engineered Camry. (At least, it always has seemed that way to me. Unless the ES is the Lexus Cimarron.)
marc: Or even closer, the Fusion/Milan/Zephyr (MK whatever). Or the Silverado/Sierra. No one is saying those should be added. It’s not a valid argument.
Actually, I would have no problem with the Fusion and Milan being lumped together, or the Silverado and Sierra, when discussing total sales in that segment. The MKZ is more than a badge-engineered version of the Fusion/Milan.
marc: You’re entitled to your opinion. It does not change the fact that the car is clearly identified as a Corolla.
Not on the car itself. If Toyota wanted it identified as a Corolla, it should have put the badge on the car. It didn’t. Nor is it identified as a Corolla model in the advertising.
Clearly, Toyota wants the public to think of the Matrix as a separate model.
marc: All speculative. I remember the era as vividly as you, and the speculation about that was rampant. But it was an Olds despite the lack of labels. I’m sure the bill of sale, the owner’s maual, et al said Olds.
That is not speculation. I followed the Oldsmobile saga closely, as I was a member of the Oldsmobile Club of America at the time.
A plan was formulated to dump the Oldsmobile moniker in favor of Aurora. When the Aurora debuted, it did not have any Oldsmobile badges or identification on the exterior. It was to be the flagship of the renamed division.
When push came to shove, GM was typically indecisive, and, in the end, it decided to stick with the Oldsmobile name. The car was still titled as an Oldsmobile on official documents, etc., as GM abandoned the plan to rename the division before the car was launched.
Note that later Auroras had Oldsmobile badging on the exterior, and the second-generation model was clearly identified as an Oldsmobile.
marc: I dont think the messages are any more mixed than that the Corolla has two distict variants that appeal to different people and are thus marketed separately.
Except that they are marketed under separate nameplates as entirely separate models. Toyota clearly wants the Matrix to have a sporty image, so it is trying to distance it from the Corolla, which has a “practical, reliable car for sensible people” image.
Everybody’s talking about the Matrix. Any data on the Vibe???
ktristan: GM sold 3,893 Vibes in March 08, up from 3,018 in March 07.
I know where all the 2009 Corolla’s went, out to California. There were actually running a 0% finance deal out here on the new 2009’s. Between that, and the 35mpg highway, I bought one a the beginning of April. The dealer I got mine from had a slew of LE, XLE, and some S models.
I test drove the Yaris, but I did not like the center pod instrument panel. I also test drove the Fit, but with the financeing deal Toyota had going, the Corolla was a much better deal in my opinion.