We reported earlier that next-gen Phaetons would be coming stateside eventually, and now Auto Motor und Sport confirms that the Clarkson-approved uber-Passat's return to the US market in 2009 has been officially announced. The Phaeton was first introduced to the American market in 2002, when Ferdinand Piech decided that Volkswagen to match Mercedes model for model. The car RF called "as marketable as a Rolls Royce bread van" was cut from VeeDub's American lineup in 2006. Since its introduction, Volkswagen has sold just 33k of the stealthy sedans worldwide. News of a U.S. relaunch comes as VW estimates a 1300-unit increase in production of Ferdinand Piech's luxury car for 2008. Will the W12-powered Wolf im Schafspelz Kleidung sell any better than it did the last time around? Nein. But if you discount VW's down market dealerships, the fanatically engineered Phaeton (windshield wipers rest on alternate sides of the blades) could well be the best used luxury car bargain the U.S. has ever seen.
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VW sold 33 thousand Phaetons?? You’re kidding.
They’d be better off to get the TDI Sportwagen over here asap.
Cicero: It’s a hell of a car.
could well be the best used luxury car bargain the U.S. has ever seen
Until something serious breaks. Then you realize you have a VW car with a Mercedes-sized repair bill. The electrical and mechanical complexity of that thing truly scares me.
That W12 should be in an Audi.
Another Phaeton – oh boy.
My VW dealer’s service guys cry every time they see one. They truly hate servicing those cars.
I joked about buying one at auction for 30k and the service writer asked, Are you nuts? Run away from that car!
Once, while waiting for service, I saw one of their techs trying to re-install a shifter knob in a Phaeton. It took him over an hour (and a lot of cursing) to get the shifter knob engage the shift lever. That car is WAY over-engineered.
I can only imagine what that repair bill looked like at $95.00/hour.
-ted
I would still have the Phaeton over any other luxury car from Germany. I’ve seen a few here in Finland and it doesn’t really look like a Passat, the Passat is ugly and ill-proportioned as a sedan, the Phaeton is pretty damn good looking while not screaming “im a rich prick LOOK AT ME”. I find the Phaeton rather easy to recognize even from a long distance, assuming you know such a thing even exists, that is. Id still take a Quattroporte over the Phaeton though.
Total nonsense.
What the heck do they have the Audi brand for then?
Does not matter how wonderful a car it is — it has a gigantic “VW” on it — same as the Rabbit and the Beetle.
Certainly in the US — that means the car priced as it was, is not going to sell well. Worse — it adds nothing to VW, stretches the already (somewhat abysmal) dealers, and takes marketing resources away from core models.
The decision here must be as much arrogance as stupidity.
Pete
@quasimondo
That W12 should be in an Audi.
It is in the A8.
The Phaeton, Audi A8, Touareg, Bentley Continental, and Porsche Cayenne, as well as the forthcoming Porsche Panamera, are variants of the same platform. Add the units sold and it VW may be making lots of money on this basic design. To me the Phaeton is a beautiful design, but the lack of service and support is frightening. Nonetheless, it may be a bargain, if the buyer can get a comprehensive warranty.
“Id still take a Quattroporte over the Phaeton though.”
Understatement of the year
And a V8 2004 Phaeton for $24k is a good deal, but how much more would an A8 from the same year be? I thought all high-luxury cars have similar depreciation?
The Phaeton is an appealing used car buy EXCEPT for VW service and reliability issues which no doubt killed the product the first time around. You’re better off buying a used Lexus LS or Infiniti Q.
People who buy new cars (or nearly new) in this segment are a different breed from most.
This car has TONS of stealth/low-key appeal. I see them about as frequently as the A8, but the Lexus LS and Infiniti Q are absolutely everywhere. I guess it’s a statement that they appreciate the finer things, but don’t like showing off OR being lost in a sea of anonymity. It’s a very unique paradox.
Ditto that you’d better have a good mechanic with the amount of goodies packed into this thing.
SLLTTAC
if the buyer can get a comprehensive warranty
I was actually looking for a used Phaeton over the winter. VW offers an extended 7 year / 100,000 mile “VW RealDriver Extended Warranty” for approximately $2800. That’s not 7 years total, that’s your remaining factory warranty and an additional 7 years or an additional 100,000 mile warranty. The cost varies with the exact in service date of your car and the mileage. Of course shorter terms are available. Check out this thread:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3648920
They’re really great cars if you can stomach the huge fuel bill, aren’t into driving dynamics, and don’t care about the brand name. They feel incredibly solid, very comfortable, and have AWD for the winter. A true luxury cruiser.
thetopdog
And a V8 2004 Phaeton for $24k is a good deal, but how much more would an A8 from the same year be? I thought all high-luxury cars have similar depreciation?
Similar A8 cost around $10-15k more when I was looking a couple months back. The A8 lacks some of the goodies though, like 18 way electric massage air con comfort front seats, and power reclining massaging heated rear seats and dual pane insulated side windows. You can also get a 4 seat package for the phaeton, which has rear seats similar to the comfort front seats.
The A8 is lighter, better on gas, and “more fun” for a limo size car to drive. And of course the brand is better.
No thanks. Judging by the VW dealerships around here service my brother’s GTI (plus he has drive around 80 miles just to get decent service) I’d take a pass on the Phaeton. Besides, why would I buy a Phaeton when there’s an Audi dealership selling an A8 just down the road?
SupaMan
I wouldn’t say Audi is any better. Riverside Audi in NJ, got even the most basic things wrong on our TT. They under-inflated our tires by 15PSI which caused a flat, replacement tire, and bent rim (trip1), took 5 hours and mounted our directional replacement tires backwards (trip2 & 3), overfilled oil during an oil change which causes tons of black smoke out the back (trip 4).
That was one of the reasons why we traded it for a MB SLK.
25k for a sweet luxury car the Pope has that’s sleek and beautiful and stealth wealth. Seems like a great deal! Too bad once anything breaks (and it will!), you’ll have to mortgage your house to fix stuff/keep it running/carpool to work/deal with the dealerships/etc. It’s then you’ve realized you spent big bucks on an unwanted, oversized, unreliable, anonymous luxobarge that makes you look and feel poor.
And also, VW said they’d decontent their car’s interiors and lower their prices so they could gain more sales in the US. I don’t have the link, but I swear Autoblog had a story on it!!
Maybe they should use the Pope as a pitchman as it will keep the Power of Christ to keep the thing on the road.
Tummy is right. You need a good dealer plus warranty, not just warranty. (my own endless struggle horror story)
Monday, I saw low mile A8 from 2004 for 24k recently on a boston area audi site. I was shocked, and tempted.
Understatement or not, i can’t think of anything quite like it at any price. Even the pretty subtle A8 looks very espensive because it’s big and it’s an Audi, which are perceived as expensive. VWs not so much, and i would imagine most people have no idea what the Phaeton really is.
I like the Quattroporte for completely different reasons and i wasn’t directly comparing it to the Phaeton. It just happens to be one of very few big sedans i really like.
If they cant sell them when Economy was better then how would they sell more this time?
Piech may had just woke up from Clinton administration.
Even RRs, Bentleys were getting hit pretty hard now.
I LOVE the first-gen. Phaeton. That they are expensive to service after the warranty is up doesn’t surprise. What high-end German isn’t??
VW’s error, I believe, was in not creating a second, premium channel to sell and service them. Or, alternatively, sell the VW Phaeton at Audi dealers.
To those who would say, “what and compete with the A8?” I would mention that, for years, GM sold lots and lots of virtually identical Cad Devilles and Olds 98s from the same dealerships. As did Lincoln with the Mercury Marquis.
And I can’t help but think that it would sell better under the marque name “Wolfsburg” Phaeton, a la the Maybach. Oops, wrong example, hehe.
$25k will buy a lot of Lexus, Acura or Infiniti. Factor in total cost of ownership, and $35k of one of the above is still a wiser choice.
In a recent Consumer Reports survey, VW Dealers ranked near the bottom of customer satisfaction surveys and VWOA has angered countless VW owners who got stuck with problem cars. Coil packs anyone?
Putting a high end vehicle into that support channel is beyond stupid.
What is the point of Audi, Lambo and Bentley if VW is going to take it’s brand into the same market?
What exactly has changed since the last failed attempt to market the Phaeton in the US?
eh_political :
$25k will buy a lot of Lexus, Acura or Infiniti. Factor in total cost of ownership, and $35k of one of the above is still a wiser choice.
$25k will buy you a used ES, TL, or G35. Totally different league as an 04/05 Phaeton. You really should try test driving one before putting it down. We currently also own an Infiniti FX45, I don’t think the quality of the Infiniti is anything near that of the Phaeton. I also wouldn’t put Infinti dealers ahead of VW, the experience is really hit or miss. Two of my friends own G35s and said that they would not be going back to the brand due to bad dealer experiences.
If you compare the Phaeton to used LS400/LS430’s you will be looking at $20k’s for the Phaeton and $40’s for the Lexus. $20,000 goes a long way towards repairs.
$10,000 more than the Phaeton for a used japanese brand will still get you only a pretty common car and nothing unique or with as high tactile quality. The Phaeton really does feel bank vault solid and all the surfaces feel very luxurious. Again, an extended 7 yr warranty is only an additional $3k, and to get a similar warranty from the japanese brands would cost a lot more.
I don’t look at cars as an investment, and the wise choice is often boring or feels like just following the crowd. I feel that for a large used luxury car, nothing beats the Phaeton for the price. You should not expect to be able to get your money back at resale though.
I actually drove past a parked Phaeton yesterday, on my way to pay $4.26 for Diesel for my Jetta. It’s one of those cars that makes me do a double take. I know my VWs, but I usually think it’s a current generation Passat at first, until I see the front end. They are definitely nice looking cars. I might buy one if I didn’t have to sell my kidneys to keep it going. I don’t see how VW thinks people are going to buy the new version. It’s way too upmarket for VW, especially with current economic conditions. I guess they’re still trying to justify the glass factory in Dresden, so they have to build something there and try to sell it.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1837641
I was reading that the next phaeton will be much cheaper and smaller. A6/5 series sized instead of 7 / S Class / A8 sized. Prices are suppose to be more inline with the mid-range offerings instead of the $70-$100k price range.
I own both an Infiniti and a Phaeton and the Phaeton is cheaper to service.
I drove it up to 14,200 feet up Mt. Evans in Colorado and it was a total dream. The Audi Sport settings worked on the hairpins and I was in total heaven. One detail is that the oxygen sensor at 12000 feet set the engine light off but it corrected itself when I got back below the tree line. The extra weight gave it extra stability. The bigger Bentley wheels and beefier tires also helped. I love how no one knows what the heck it is. (until they notice the enormous size of the car) This is not a car for lightwieghts, I suppose this is why it gets criticized so much. Besides, I don’t necessarily want people to know I have money when I am driving around. World is way to dangerous.
One other thing, this is going to be a very rare car. Only 3000 were imported to the USA the first time around. Cars are not normally investments but go price the last model Toyota Supras (70k+ on the used market). I suspect the long wheel base original Phaetons will bottom out then start rising in price as they are totally unique. The new models coming in 2009 will not be any cheaper because the dollar is falling like a rock against the Euro.
The RRs and Bentleys are selling like hotcakes in China. China is now the #1 importer of RRs and Bentleys now surpassing the United States. Times they are a changing. Blame our leadership.
i have a 2004 phaeton – I LOVE IT!
my family has owned many many cars over the years and nothing can compare. I have read the comments of comparing to lexus,infiniti, mercedes, audi’s, etc – i don’t want one of those because they are everywhere and we all know what they are about. the phaeton is a sleeper on the road, the best kept secret! i love going places and having people ask “what kind of car is that?” what an awesome feeling. and safety – i am 100% confident driving down the road with my two children… on a down pour rain day my car stays in the lane we are driving and NEVER moves, just gripped to the road.
i’m not one for engine specs and mechanics – i don’t care – it is worth every penny i have to spend! … by the way – my repair bills $0, my maintenance – just oil and standard mile service which comes with any car!
all i ask before going on and on with the negative responses is to drive one for a weekend and see all the uniqueness about it …. i guarantee you won’t forget the experience…
I just bought one, and you are absolutely right. This car rocks!
brock girl: I couldn’t agree more. I own a 2005 V8 and feel the same way.
I’ve owned many of the cars that folks mentioned above. All of them have depreciated while I owned them. I accepted the fact that a car is a depreciating asset and purchased them anyway, because they met my needs to one degree or another.
I don’t expect to replace the Phaeton anytime soon. Nothing but a newer Phaeton even holds my interest at this point.
I drove Meredes Benz products for years because I believed they were the best engineered, safest, highest quality automobiles available to regular human beings.
I had worked my way up through the line, Starting all the way back in 1972 with a 220D. My last Mercedes was an S500, which I was totally satisfied with until I test drove the Phaeton.
The differece between the S500 and the Phaeton was staggering. Which is ironic, because I felt that the same could be said when comparing the S500 to most other cars. For example, I’d ride with various friends in their cars, then get back into the S500 and the difference was always very noticable.
Without a doubt, had the Phaeton not come along, I’d have replaced my S500 with a S550 and be hapily driving it.
My Phaeton still looks and drives like new. I just hope VW either brings them back to the US for 2009, or I can find a very low mile 2006 model to replace this one someday.
Phaetons aren’t for everybody. But for those who understand what a Phaeton really is, there is nothing quite like it. To this day, my heart still skips a beat every time I lay eyes on my Phaeton. It’s been a lot of years since a car ever did that for me.
i am sold on the unassuming PHAETON. what will be THE PHAETON CLASSIC TO OWN? what options, engine, etc.
i guess i am asking for a car / vw/ phaeton expert to see into the future and say, “this is the W12, 6.0 with these options…” and tell me which the car and VW PHAETON enthusiast would have.
in other words which would Ferdinand P. be proudest of?
THE phaeton to have is the 2006 W12 with the 4 seater package. Good luck trying to find one, there were very few in that configuration imported to the US, less than 10 I believe.
dc00046
Tummy is exactly right. The four seat option is unique in either the V8 or the W12 model.
If your question is, “What Phaeton will bring a record price on the Barret Jackson auction block in 2035?”, no doubt it will be the 2006 model W12 with the 4 seat option package.
In the US, here’s how the Phaetons fall. In order of future value:
1) The custom ordered W12 with the four seat option, preferably a 2006 (the engine was increased to 444 HP that year).
2) Any other custom ordered W12 that differs from the pack.
3) Any W12 (the bulk of these are black with a tan interior, so different color schemes may add to the future “collectible” value).
–In the V8 cars, the option packages will add future value as well. (The W12 cars come already loaded)–
4) The custom ordered V8 with the four seat option.
5) Any other custom ordered V8 (the bulk of the base model V8 Phaetons are silver with a black interior, so different color schemes may add to the future “collectible” value).
6) The 2005 and 2006 V8 base model, since for 2005 the console is all wood (same as the W12) and standard equipment list added power-close doors and the newer spec suspension controller.
7) The 2004 V8 base model.
Fellows,
Exactly the detail I was hoping to receive, minus the extreme rarity of the of that particular model and make. All the same, thank you.
A person might have to consider travelling to find the top car, and import it back to the U.S…, or would all the european models be right hand-drive? Are there other considerations that make importing a phaeton less realistic?
And, another thought that occurs, are there ‘new’ models in the making that will be worth the wait? (Tummy, your comments about ‘downsizing’ are noted above)
The phaeton convertible looks sweet.
Again, thank you for the detailed response.
Replay
SLLTTAC
“The Phaeton, Audi A8, Touareg, Bentley Continental, and Porsche Cayenne, as well as the forthcoming Porsche Panamera, are variants of the same platform.”
the official name of Phaeton and Continental’s platform is Volkswagen Group D1 platform built under official name VW611. Thats Steel based construction. The A8′ platform is aluminium based and name is D3 which means THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.Porsche borrowed Cayenne’s platform for touareg and audi took tha same platform, prolong it ant built Q7. Audi A3, Golf, Seat Leone, Skoda Octavia use the same exact platform with small changes and cars still have totally different characters.
Another thing about Phaeton is, that car was entry in high end world and they tried so hard to make it high quality. that car is not for racing is for enjoying. it has better quality than & series, even the materials used in the interior are better than bmw’s,.
Also comparing Phaeton to A8 is crazy as much as comparing A3 to golf, A4 to passat…VW are functional family cars, audi’s are sporty prestige cars.
Most here in the US seems uninformed
The Phaeton share almost everything with the Bentley Continental and they were built side by side in the VW glass factory in Dresden until Bentley production was moved to the UK.
Not only are the platform the same, the W12 is the same engine (except for the 2 turbos) and the V8 uses the Audi 4.2. In Europe it also has the same brakes as the Bentley. See them parked next to each other and you also see that they share the same interior gimmicks and design of center console, steering wheel etc… It is almost surprising the VW hardly saved any feature for the Bentley like the wood panes covering the vents and the breathing dash, the 4 zone climate etc.
All suspension, undercarriage is the same, all electronics in the same positions etc
I don’t think the VW dealerships know much so service it at the Bentley shop instead, expensive, yes, but smile when you are driving a 160 car for much less, 04s available from 20k now…
The car is better than all the competition including the A8, or it is as good as the Bentley :-)
The Phaeton is in a class of its own and by the way, I drive an A8, great car and more sporty than the Phaeton but my A8 is not a disguised Bentley
Love my $25,000 ride! Dreams do come true. Always wanted one but yes just didnt have $80,000 to blow. I bought my dream car with 57,000 miles and a bumper to bumper 24/24 extended warranty all included in my $25,000 price tag! And to top it off the dealership VW Boucher in Sturtevant, Wisconsin(Ray Braschko)treated me like I just spent $80,000. If I was rich, which I’m not, I would buy a new 2011 when it hits the floor.
Stefanl said it right. Its not an A8 its a Bentley for a lot less. Yes the gas mileage sucks. So what do you expect for a high end dream car? An aftermarket set of 19″ rims and this car can pass for a Bentley. For those of us that love our VW’s we get it.
Just a bump to this thread…. The Phaeton is a Great car!…
I have 3 W12’s. The best cars I have ever owned! They make me smile every time I touch the gas pedal. I can’t count the number of times someone has stopped me at a stoplight, and wanted to know what it is. I found them head and shoulders above the Mercedes 550, Lexus, and a 750 series BMW. The build quality is hand built, and on par with Bentley. Check out the ” glass factory VW built in Dresden”.
I bought mine with bumper to bumper warranties, and have used them occasionally, so, my costs have been only oil changes. There is a web community of some really great passionate people on vwvortex.com, that are are the best resource on the web. I look forward to the day that these autos are brought back to the US. ( potentially next year).
The past depreciation and the current prices create an incredible deal on a d- badged Bentley Continental.