Today's proof that the ethanol revolution is being kept alive by the GM kool-aid sippers comes from Texas, where the first dealership-owned E85 station just opened. Installed at a cost of a mere half a million dollars, the Classic Clean Fuels (not spelled with the always-klassy "K"?) nine-pump station serves up E10, E85 and biodiesel in suburban Dallas, right next door to the HUMMER dealership that owns it. "We'll offer a biofuel powertrain in every model we build by the end of 2010," HUMMER General Manager Martin Walsh said. "A Hummer's off-road capability and care for the environment are in no way mutually exclusive. This is simply one more step in our effort to promote responsible adventure." A two-hour 85-cents-per-gallon sale on E85 and a free tank of corn juice with the purchase of any new HUMMER are only the beginning of the marketing possibilities, as GM Media Online strains to use one dealership's actions as a measure of the success of the company. "This signals that GM and our dealers are trying hard to give our customers choices," says GM VP for R&D Larry Burns. "Down the road, we may even want to consider hydrogen dispensers at dealerships." Because building fuel-efficient vehicles is just too obvious.
Find Reviews by Make:
Read all comments
I’d hate to think what the mileage of an H2 is on E85 – maybe 8MPG? Maybe we should quote it in miles per acres of corn?
carguy: Me too. I tried to look up the fuel economy numbers on the EPA’s site, but no H2. Then it hit me — the loophole for supersize SUVs and pickups that exempts them from the fuel “economy” regs.
carguy
I wish E85 were quoted in terms “cents increase on other foods”
“Check it out, E85 is only running 35 cents a pound for chicken! Last week it was only 20 cents. That’s CHEAP!”
In Germany the biodiesel market has collapsed and they are selling the plants to the USA.(no doubt highly government subsidized) This is the future of biofuels. The price of grain will sky rocket this year and put an end to this foolishness. Who will the USA sell their ethanol plants to?
http://www.reuters.com/article/summitNews/idUSL1589672020080115
ash78 – “Corn is only 35 cents a pound of chicken”
Doubleplusgood.
An H2 running E85 gets about 3080 miles per acre of corn.
Assumptions: 328 gallons of ethanol per acre (requiring 140 gallons of fuel to produce), 57 gallons of gasoline to mix with ethanol (total 385 gallons E85), list H2 mpg 10-13 reduced to 8 mpg (7.2/9.35) on E85.
If you add in the 140 gallons of fuel for distillation/fertilizer the mileage decreases to 6 mpg (5.28/6.87)
Hope my math is correct =)
bluecon asks:
Who will the USA sell their ethanol plants to?
Why, to China and India, once we convince them it is their way to get more people into cars. We can show then the German parts from the plants that will show them the plant products they are buying has integrity. That will impress them to no end…
Mocktard:
Using the same assumptions and assuming the fuel for production can be substituted by E85 fuel with a corresponding increase in fuel needed to 194 gallons (165 gallons of ethanol and 29 gallons of gasoline), the Hummer would be able to drive 1,376 miles per acre of corn.
If each acre produces 328 gallons of ethanol, that would be combined with 58 gallons of petroleum gasoline to yield 386 gallons of E85. But, only only 172 gallons is left for the Hummer after you subtract out the fuel used to produce the ethanol (386-194). Interestingly, this results in a fuel economy of 23.7 miles per gallon of petroleum gasoline, which is certainly achievable in a “non-armored”, 4WD, off-road vehicle. However, I also believe that 140 gallons of fuel to produce 328 gallons of ethanol from one acre of corn is a rather generous estimate. Most studies seem to indicate that the total energy balance from field to pump is much closer to break even. Something more along the lines of 200 to 230 gallons of fuel to produce 328 gallons of ethanol.
http://www.mediabistro.com/unbeige/original/barnum.jpg
Maybe there are alternatives to corn,,,,such as switchgrass ,,,or my fav alternative,,,hemp,,,not much in the news on that one,,,but it has the most promise,,,chek out (hemp for fuel) on google,,,it will tell you,,,heck the first diesel engine ran on peanut oil ,,,,yup thats right rudolf diesels first engine ran on just that,,,my old hoss a 91 ford f250 diesel runs on anything with oil in it,,,i have tried it,,but until Big oil gets out of office it is always going to be like this
At the risk of crossing the no-flame line: please, soupdog06, leave the multiple-comma delimited formatting at home. Periods and commas (in singular) have worked brilliantly for centuries.
I say this in your interest, because the average commenter here at TTAC will probably skip over your comments if so formatted, and we’d hate to miss some valuable input.
As for switchgrass — isn’t that the hope for cellulosic ethanol? Being able to convert any kind of fast-growing waste vegetation into ethanol? From my understanding we are still years away from large-scale production of cellulosic ethanol, so I don’t see at as any kind of realistic near-term solution.
To the article itself: hey, why not? If you are going to pitch flex-fuel vehicles why not give the consumer the impression they can actually buy the stuff somewhere?
LOL, I did skip it.
And no, that is not a flame at all.
dean,
Look up gasification. I believe this is the best hope for producing liquid fuel from any long chain hydrocarbon feedstock, including trash, plastic, or waste oils. “Celluosic ethanol” typically refers to a biological fermentation process that isn’t as efficient, flexible with its feedstock, or flexible with the type of fuel produced. However, some companies using gasification have begun to use that term for marketing because it’s what most people are familiar with.
I like the idea of using waste materials for feedstock, but I am a bit wary of growing anything specifically to be converted to fuel – especially if it’s food!
@soupdog06
1 billion 860 million people around in 1920.
28 million Americans are now on food stamps and people are burning food in their Hummers… This will turn out well.
Heh, I also skipped the comma-laden post. Just hurts my eyes. Is it a text conversion thing, or just personal style? I must be getting old ;)
I like to drive, but I LOVE to eat. Fuel is only 2% of my total household budget (based on gross income). Food is more like 10%. Financially, this is a no-brainer.
The Model T was “from the ground” but only in the sense that it was made with alot of wood.
The 1941 Popular Mechanics article you referred to likely was written about some soybean based plastics that Ford experimented with in the late 1930’s/early 1940’s. They did indeed try their hands at building body panels out of plastics. I still like the idea of easily replaced plastic body panels ala Saturn if the panels were cheap enough to afford. I’ve got to replace several plastic pieces on the front of my CR-V and they are anything but cheap. Minor traffic accident by my wife a few months ago.
I have worked on several Model Ts and none had anything that resembled a plastic except a couple pieces of bakelite possibly. The only bakelite I recall on any of the early Fords I have worked on were distributor caps, knobs, and other small trim items.
I really doubt there will be any successful major hemp movements in this country anytime. Hard to take folks too seriously when they are smokin’ and tokin’ no matter how good their intentions are.
Now whether you should have the right to smoke whatever you please is another thing entirely. Let’s start with keeping you and your habit off our roads and health care plan (so my cost doesn’t go up for your habits) and then we’ll talk… VBG!
Hey I don’t smoke or drink. So if you are insuating that I do than you are wrong. Am only trying to state something and that is there are alternatives to the black gold as the pirates (the oil companies call it). And one is hemp not weed. There is a difference just look it up.The possibilities are endless from paper which would probably save a lot of trees, to plastics which can also be made from it. But this would hurt the oil companies.
But we need to look at these alternatives and as i stated earlier I have experimented with different oils in my diesel and it runs on anything from corn oil, canola oil and even sunflower oil. So you can see the possibilities are endless. Look it up and you will see. You can even use grease from Mickey D’or any fast food restaurant, it just has to be filtered. But it does run on it and even better. They don’t want the public to know this .
This is taken from an article on the internet. To find it there type in hemp for fuel.
Rudolf Diesel, the inventor of the diesel engine, designed it to run on vegetable and seed oils like hemp; he actually ran the thing on peanut oil for the 1900 World’s Fair. Henry Ford used hemp to not only construct cars but also fuel them.
As an alternative to methanol, hemp has at least one glowing report: the plant produces up to four times more cellulose per acre than trees. And a hemp crop grows a little quicker than a forest.
wow.
ethanol.
and all we have to do is cause the worlds food prices to double or triple or worse to get all that responsable truck ownership!
what a deal
no wonder everyone hates us.
No, no – not insuating that you smoke weed – but the authors of the magazine prob do. Dings their credibility with me that’s all.
I completely agree we need to diversify our energy sources. Do it now while it’s relatively painless.
We could wait until the price of oil is $300 a barrel but why wait? Well the companies that could change things are waiting in the name of profits I suspect. Changing now eliminates an easy way to make money with exisiting resources, existing designs, and exisiting methods. They want to ride this banana boat right until the end. I guess being an early adopter of technology can be tougher than just making more SUVs
Since I can’t make anyone else change through finger pointing or suggestion I’ll be changing the way our family lives through more efficient cars, solar water and solar power on our rooftop, and reducing how much junk we consume as a family and thus how much gets thrown away. For us it is not a question of direct money savings but about doing the right thing. For that same reason I think we ought to recycle even if it costs a little money, etc.
Sort of like paying for schools, fire and police protection, and to have a local hospital. These things don’t necessarily have a direct profit to us but they do make where we live a much better place. Well for the same reason being “green” or even a little “greenish” is worth while to us all in the long run.
So far all I have accomplished is the smaller cars part. Solar comes in a year or two once we can afford to spend the cash for the system and I’ll install it myself. $10K, 10 year pay off, 25 year lifespan for solar electricity. I’ll gladly purchase that instead of a new car and drive our older cars a little longer. FWIW we’ll be accomplishing our goals with a regular suburban home – not some new age farm house in the middle of a 50 acre farm in a small TN town.
As for the hemp – I wonder if kudzu would work well. We’ve got plenty of kudzu in this part of TN!!!
I’ve always liked the Indian ways (stereotype) of wasting nothing. If we took on some of these alt.energy methods like gasification and such couldn’t we start digging up the old landfills and making energy from them? I know some are yielding methane gas for recapture.
Sorry just riled me a lil bit. But I am too trying. I built a small windmill that generates enough electricity to power some lights for my shop made from an alternator hooked up to batteries then to a inverter. I bought the inverter at Walmart. It can be done and is an alternative energy source. Also with the alternatives for diesel. I have a friend who has gone to jail for growing industrial hemp for his Nation. He sees the possibilities and is now down in Africa showing them how to grow it.
Yet they do it in Canada and we buy the hemp products. SO YOU TELL ME WHATS GOING ON. I just see an alternative that is being quelled by big money or oil in this country. And if you want to know I am a Dakota Indian and have been trying to change things for my people for a long time. I look for economic possibilities for our reservations and one is growing Industrial Hemp and what could be made from it. The possibilities are endless but it would put the hurt on big money here. So until it is possible I will keep plugging away at getting more news to the public.
Nah, sorry for coming off like a jerk.
Keep working at the conservation thing – you’re making more progress than I am.
Am starting to hear talk through our network of family and friends about changing their ways somewhat. I think we are believe that consumption by China and India will seriously drive prices up for us here in the USA. It’s my belief too.
Sounds weird but I think it will make us a better country if we aren’t so wasteful.
Maybe we’ll go back to shopping for quality instead of cheap prices at all other costs.
Maybe we’ll go back to fixing what we own instead of throwing it all out.
Maybe we’ll not chased fads like a herd of sheeple in a rush to buy the next big thing offered in the stores.
Maybe more people will take better care of what they’ve already got rather than throwing it all out and buying new stuff constantly.
Maybe more of us will shift our focus from stuff to each other – family and friends.
Good one Busbodger.
Busbodger,
I like your last post, but I have a little trouble with this: “We could wait until the price of oil is $300 a barrel but why wait? Well the companies that could change things are waiting in the name of profits I suspect.”
This sounds like you think there is a better way, but that we must wait for Exxon or others to do all the work to get it done. Nothing could be more anti-American in my mind. If you are sure there is a better way, then get out there and get it done yourself. This is America, and no one has a monopoly on the better mouse trap for anything. This is a put up or shut up kinda place. I am no fan of Exxon, but many of the oil companies are working pretty hard on ensuring they are still producing the best energy products available. Their investments in time and money are in all alignment with their best estimates of profitablility and success.
If you don’t want someone telling you how to spend your money and your time, then you shouldn’t be telling them what to do either.
If you have proof that some people are using unethical tactics to keep the oil industry in the black, then print it. I will be one of the first ones with a rope for the lynching.
Landcrusher,
I mean instead of subsidizing a war in a foreign land in the name of security, let’s subsidize some real changes right here in America. What’s the total cost up to now – half a trillion bucks? What do you suspect the final cost will be? Double that?
$500 billion dollars would have put solar on what percentage of American rooftops? A better solution would be to put installations on the public buildings first. Let them back feed their power to the grid. Aid our own energy needs here to remove us from the Arab situation.
I didn’t believe the reasons that our gov’t used to send our troops to war. My belief is that we went to war to grow a friendly nation that also happens to be important geographically, politically (after the war), and also happens to have a large oil reserve. A toehold in the middle east.
The Saudis were once upon a time someone we could rely on but the Iraqi option was better if riskier.
Was Saddam a bad man? Yes. Was a war the best way to handle that situation? No. Was it the only way? No.
Take that $500 Billion dollars and make good things happen here that have a future.
What are Detroit and the oil companies doing? Figuring out ways to see us more of the same stuff they have been selling us for 50 years. They just have to keep the price low enough and keep the product interesting enough.
Just like vehicle safety equipment, we’ll have to legislate changes in those industries unfortunately. Believe me when I say I don’t want any more gov’t programs. I don’t like Nanny programs but this is what I think will be required.
Ultimately the top folks in th auto and oil industries know way more than I do. They can better see the future.
I am sure they will continue to sell the same stuff to us until they can not sell another unit or another gallon. At that point they will suddenly reveal new products and new revenue streams allowing them to sell alternatives to us.
Ever notice how GM never ever mentions the EV1? It’s as if it never existed. Yet they are leading us on with promises of a totally new hybrid concept (VOLT) which if it ever makes it to the showroom floor will be the same idea with a small gas engine in it. Why is this so difficult?
Why don’t I put my money where my mouth is? I am in my own slow ways with a mere mortal budget. We are changing how much and how we consume at our house. We have plans to put solar on our house as soon as our budget allows. All I can do now is study it. I am also studying about battery powered cars. Again – I lack the funds to do it out of pocket. I figure $10K for solar on the house, and $10K for converting the car. Anything less is a car with low-tech batteries that wear out every 15K miles, and a low power solar system that won’t accomplish much.
Once again, I applaud your efforts to do what you think is good at your house, but I have problems with your rhetoric.
“I am sure they will continue to sell the same stuff to us until they can not sell another unit or another gallon. At that point they will suddenly reveal new products and new revenue streams allowing them to sell alternatives to us.”
There is so much wrong with this, I won’t be able to get it all in one post.
What is more likely:
1. A conspiracy among oil companies is keeping any of them (or any of their bright employees) from offering a better energy solution.
2. They don’t have a better solution, and do not currently see the path to get to one that is doable enough that it is worth betting the farm on. None of their employees know of one either because (last I checked) they aren’t running out to grab up investors and start a company that would make microsoft look like a mom and pop operation if it were successful.
And yes, as soon as the oil business is no longer profitable, they will all start trying to sell us something else. That’s is what they are supposed to do. It’s their job, duty, and responsibility. And yes, as marketers, they will be telling us how much better the new thing is, even if it isn’t. What would you do with your business? Give up?
Most of the major oil companies are dabbling in other energy solutions to ensure they don’t miss the next wave of technology. As soon as the better way comes along, they will all be scrambling to convert their businesses.