Everyday it seems more and more manufacturers are turning to DSG-style solutions for cog-swapping. Just yesterday Farago reported that Porsche is finally getting into the dual-clutch game (and seeing as how they pioneered the technology back in the day, why not?) But, why? Automatic transmissions make most of the people happy most of the time. However, if "performance" is the second, third or even fourth metric you consider when purchasing a car, slushboxes suck. By giving the people the means to shift for themselves, a bit of that suckage is mitigated. Up until the semi-widespread adoption of dual-clutch systems, manumatics have always been a major let down. Clutchless manuals have been even worse (I'm looking at you, Maserati). Both Farago and Berkowitz have been unrepentant in their love of Volkswagen's DSG solution, yet I still think it pales in comparison to a stick and a clutch. It's fast, sure, but where's the feel? Where's the art? Plus, I didn't spend years perfecting heel-and-toe downshifts for nothing, did I? Anyhow, what do you think?
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I do love the VW DSG. However, I still like the clutch.
DSG is almost too good. At least it gets rid of the rubber-band feel of an automatic, and shifts are lightning fast. But there is still no comparison to coming up to a corner, downshifting with a nice little throttle blip, matching revs perfectly, flying out of the corner and grabbing the next gear. Sure the DSG can do all that for you, but it feels so much better when you do it yourself.
I think part of the reason I like the VW DSG so much is because their clutch travel is way too long, getting me too close to brake and gas in order to get it to the floor. Add to it that moving from gas to brake takes almost a pick up of the leg versus a “swing” of the foot. Basically VW pedal setups stink. Which is a shame, cause otherwise I really like the GTI.
If they were close in price I’d easily take the DSG.
Full disclosure: I am not a super-skilled driver with a stick, and I have yet to experience a manual I would consider a good stick. In fact, most have been rubbery disasters.
So, if I had a slick 6-speed Cayman in the garage (and knew how to drive it well) I may not have a preference for DSGs.
Real men use a stick.
–chuck
Having test-driven a DSG A3… Nothing all that special. Sure, it’s a lot better than regular auto, but when it comes to shifting that gear the right way at the right time, it still sucks big time. It’s the right solution, but it’s just not even close to being hard-wired into your brain like the common stick’n’clutch. The interface still needs a lot of work.
That said, I think it’s only a matter of time before we’ll have one (1) speed to work with. I have no idea why Toyota doesn’t stuff Prius drivetrain in every car they have, given how simple and elegant it is. No torque converters, no clutches, no shifter forks, nothing. Just two electric motors, a single planetary gear, and that’s it.
I’m not as intimately familiar with DSGs as most of the readers here probably are (I’ve driven a couple, but only briefly). However, my instinct is that the fully manual shifter still has value and purpose.
Manual gearboxes weigh less.
Manual gearboxes are far simpler mechanically.
Manual gearboxes are more fun. We are car aficionados here, no?
A DSG transmission is still an automatic. Usually it shifts gears for you as mindlessly as any automatic (except that the delay between gears is much less, assuming the transmission guesses right as to the next gear you will need). However, no tranny can perfectly predict what its human operator will want.
Even if you paddle shift a DSG, you still lose the actual action of clutching. In a dead-hard acceleration, like on a drag strip, automatic clutching will save time and give you better acceleration, for certain, but the real world rarely requires such acceleration. Also, the DSG does not have a solution for the times, like sketchy traction, where partially clutching and letting the gears intentionally slip can actually be desirable.
I think the DSG is the way to go if you want to drive a slushbox, unquestionably, but if you want to be in control of your car as much as you can be, there is no substitute for a proper manual gearbox. I’m stubborn enough about that that I’ve held firm and still have never bought a car with an automatic. (And a nav system is much more fun to have in a car than a slushbox anyway, if you insist on spending the money.)
A good stick, no question.
Yeah, and just try finding a real manual-gearbox car on a dealer lot, new or used!
My last two 3-series purchases (5-speed with the larger engine as requirements) left the local dealer flummoxed and I ended up with a long-distance purchase.
Nothing beats the throttle blip on the downshift or the throttle rev on the upshift before letting out the clutch… I know the DSG can do it faster, but it’s just no fun!
Two feet, three pedals? One hand on the wheel, one hand on a stick? What are you, nuts?
The DSG is the best of both worlds: the right gear at the right time and two hands on the wheel. The downshift matching, throttle-blipping action is way cool.
If you like to drive REALLY fast, paddles are the way to go (ask, oh I dunno, a race car driver). If you like to drive easy and relaxed, DSG is the way forward.
As I’ve said before, the only real advantage of a stick is it’s less easy for scrotes to steal.
Can you resurrect my work on this from a previous TTAC rant: “Three Pedal Fugue in A minor”?
Stick – every time.
Robert Farago: …the only real advantage of a stick is it’s less easy for scrotes to steal.”
Not the only advantage, but a major one.
Other advantages:
– lower weight = better performance = higher fuel economy
– greater mechanical simplicity = better longevity = lower repair costs
– some argue that having to manually shift gears keeps a person’s attention on the road better. Seeing how far I manage to drive my wife’s ’92 Corolla with 3-speed automatic compared to my ’07 Accord EX-L with 5-speed manual, I believe it. I behave much better in the Accord, a car which by all accounts should want to be driven much faster than an ancient Corolla.
– non-sequential gearing. Occasionally you may want to skip a gear. These situations are rare, but on a true manual transmission you pick the gear, not a box in the engine compartment.
– no one asks if they can borrow my car. Few people I know can drive it. :)
– routinely driving a stick in North America makes life much easier when you go to Scotland and almost all the rental cars come with sticks. (Way fun shifting with the left hand, by the way.)
I could go on, but there are many advantages to a manual.
Gimme a stick. Part of the pleasure of driving is directly controlling as many aspects of the vehicle as possible, not commanding the computer to do something which it may or may not do depending on whether it thinks it knows better ..
“Upshift to 4th HAL”,
“I don’t think you want to do that yet Dave”.
Also from a safety perspective, yesterdays QOTD “sudden acceleration incident” can never happen with a clutch because there’s several extra ways of disengaging the power from the wheels which no buggy computer chip can ever override.
I remember driving a DSG GTI for the first time expecting a lot, and was incredibly disappointed. I prefer it to a regular auto, but it’s no substitute for a stick.
My order of preference:
1. Good stick (e.g., S2000, Miata)
2. Single-clutch automated manuals (e.g., SMG, Ferrari’s “F1”)
3. Dual-clutch DSG/DCT.
4. Automatic (sport mode preferable)
5. Tiptronic or “manual” mode in auto.
6. Bad stick.
The DSG is very impressive, and very smooth on both up- and downshifts. Almost too good. I prefer the single-clutch SMGs more, since it still retains that rewarding/punishing character of the traditional stick. If you modulate the shifts properly (lift when upshift; rev-match or heel-toe when downshifting in corner) it will reward you with a smooth shift and pleasant exhaust note. If you don’t do it right, jerking and bucking are what you will get. (Also, the SMG is better that two-gear downshifts than the DSG.)
As for the tiptronic/steptronic function in autos, they all suck – in a Porsche, BMW, Lexus, or a Honda. It never shifts when you ask it too, and sometimes upshifts when you even hint at going anywhere near the redline. I’d rather just leave an auto in “D”.
And, for me, driving is more than just rowing the gears. A bad stick will frustrate and ruin the whole driving experience. I prefer a good auto over a bad stick any day.
dougw:
Can you resurrect my work on this from a previous TTAC rant: “Three Pedal Fugue in A minor”?
“But of course. From Douglas Weir’s most excellent editorial on the subject (which you can read here):
My point is this: when you want to DRIVE, when you want to fully experience all that hurling large amounts of shaking and slamming metal and shape-shifting rubber encompasses, if you want to stand in front of the orchestra and feel it respond to your every whim, you have to take the baton and lead with your soul. Commuter cars not withstanding, when you get your Cayman S, your Corvette Z06, Stradivarius Lotus Elise, or any really drivey road rocket, if you check the automatic box on the spec sheet you are robbing yourself of the thrill of being master, commander, large and in charge. Your Song will not Remain the Same (apologies to Led Zeppelin).
So suffer a bad shift. Kill the motor (preferably at a busy intersection). Miss a gear. Hit the limiter. Laugh at your foibles. Have fun. Modern love is not automatic.”
Stick. Definitely. Paddle shifts, regardless of the technology controlled by the paddle, seems to be dork shift. It’s for those who like to pretend they drive a stick car. I am impressed by the dual clutch technology but I prefer to clutch and shift myself. There is a visceral thrill to the touch, sight and sounds of driving a good fast car well.
Most of my “stick time” has been in trucks and 4×4’s, but I really do enjoy a good standard in the right car. I’ve never driven a DSG car, but the concept is intriguing. I’d like to try one so as to judge the issue better. The proponents seem to have a good case. Those against it aren’t seem nostalgic, but on this issue, I think that nostalgia is not such a bad thing.
Good QOTD. I think this is one where there is a wide spread of opinion distribution from fairly like-minded folks.
As I said in the other thread, I fail to see anything good about manuals. Goody, you get one mpg better than the autobox, and sometimes worse mileage. It’s tiring. It’s dull. It’s repetitive. After my first experience with a standard, I couldn’t wait to get back into my grandma’s 4-speed Deville. That’s how much I don’t like manuals. Goldbergian head-patting and tummy-rubbing.
I have both a full manual and tiptronic type paddles in our cars.
Definitely prefer the manual, given the choice. I’ve not driven a DSG setup so I can’t comment there.
Part of the reason (for me) is how one uses the steering wheel. I’m one of the types who tends to “shuffle” steer, hands on the bottom half of the circle, rather than the hand-over-hand method at the top that many other folks do. I find that I can’t always get to the paddles when I want when doing a turn, for example. Otherwise it’s fine. But with a stick, even the added motion of freeing a hand for a split second while turning to make the gear change seems to be more of a fluid one, and done when I want to, not when the paddles are within reach.
My personal preference is manual transmissions. I enjoy the extra involvement driving stick gives me. I feel more connected to the car and I enjoy myself more.
It would never matter to me if an automatic is faster, more economical, or even if it reads my mind. What matters to me most is how I feel when driving, and I am more comfortable with a shifter in my right hand.
“deano :
Yeah, and just try finding a real manual-gearbox car on a dealer lot, new or used!”
I stopped by a BMW dealership closeby to test drive a Z coupe or Z roadster. No manual version of either at all. I then asked for a manual version of the 328, but was also told no. At least, they had a 6-speed 335i. For what it’s worth, an auto 335i I test drove earlier was just as engaging, fun, and powerful. I think the 335i is an engine-car, not a transmission-car. But I digress…
I think like so much in automobiles, it comes to age and family status. Young and single, stick all the way. Older married and kids, auto takes over. Certainly worked that way for me. From 16 to 34, every car I drove was a stick. The Fiat Brava (leaked oil, brake fluid, transmission fluid, windshield wiper fluid and probably battery acid, but was fun to drive) The two mercury Lynxs (now THAT’ll get ya some chicks!) the Nissan little p’up, the Saturn SL, and finally a Mazda 626, specifically bought because no other V6’s in its class had a stick back then (2000).
Married w. a kid, all automatics. Need that hand to be available to hand back the bottle/toy/diaper/whatever. At this point, can’t see going back to a stick, much as I’d like to.
A stick is one of those car attributes everyone says they want, but when it comes time to buy, wives, children and the practicalities of daily living get in the way. DSG might be a good compromise, but like some mentioned with the Steptronic and there ilk, could be more trouble than they’re worth.
What is the overall market share of stickshifts, 10-15%? Anyone know for sure?
Gotta have 3 pedals for me.
I have one of each in my garage: a Cadillac equipped with GM’s 6L80 double-clutch six-speed shiftable auto (no tiller paddles, thankfully), and another with a good-old Tremec 6-speed stick.
The 6L80 is a surprisingly smart transmission. We got off to a slow start but once it got some time with me it became much better anticipating the gear I would have grabbed if I had it in manual mode. I shift it myself for about 60% of the seat time I spend with it, as doing so is more engaging than full auto, and I can more frequently use engine-braking or getting exactly the gear I want on uphill canyons. No question, however, the 6L80 is suited for the clogged freeway creep times.
But if I only had one? The 6 speed, third pedal clutch manual; involving, pinpoint control, entertaining, solid.
Phil
In a vehicle with sporting pretensions:
Manuals are for people who enjoy performance driving.
DSGs, SMGs etc are for those who enjoy the idea of performance driving.
Automatics are for those who enjoy the image of performance driving.
Over-simplified, I know, but food for thought…
Stick all the way, but if I had it my way I would have a sequential from a motorcycle in a car. I drive the car so little now I have to deprogram myself from the motorcycle. How come no one has come out with a sequential shifter like that for cars.
Haven’t had the chance to try our a DSG but I have a feeling I wont like it from other people comments, still needs more evolution I guess.
Just because you have a family does not mean you MUST get an auto. I forced my wife into a fun to drive stick because I wasn’t going to pay for a new tranny at 70 or 80,000 miles and she will never go back to an auto now, hates the driving experience. After you have been driving stick for a while it becomes second nature and your kids should be able to wait 2 seconds to get their toy, bottle or whatever. Plus it forces you to concentrate on your driving and not the distractions in the back seat.
Give me a stick any day.
I’m not a race driver. I don’t drive on a race track. A few tenths of a second (or even a few seconds) slower don’t matter at all to me. It’s the experience for me. The interaction. That’s what matters. This means sometimes you flub a shift — or drive a stretch of road slower. So what? A few seconds here and there are meaningless to someone driving for pleasure.
When my sports car is finished (Bugeye Sprite) it will have double the original power (just over 80hp). And a 4 speed. And I’ll be smiling!
Can’t we all just get along?
I’ve never gotten to drive a car with a DSG, but just thinking about it turns my stomach. I need three pedals and a stick to really be one with a car.
It’s interesting to note that many of those responding who favor the stick over the DSG have not actually driven one, much less experienced one day to day.
Consider, if you were to ask automatic drivers who have not actually driven a stick what their preference would be, guess which they would choose – auto or stick.
Just a thought.
I’ve driven a GTI with the DSG and I wasn’t overly impressed, it was nice but nothing mindblowing. I’d take a stick any day
does one have to even ask this question on a car enthusiast website?
Actually, I guess it is a good question to ask on an enthusiast website, since there apparently are people here who don’t agree with me on this one, but sheesh, I love my clutch!
I like what photojim said on the first page of comments
Which is better: a car you drive yourself, or a car that does the driving for you?
The only DSG I’ve driven was a BMW 3 series, circa 2004. Ugh. Manumaatics suck. I think I’d rather have a straight automatic than either, although if the VW dsg is really that good, I suppose I’d have to try it.
There is a grace in operating a manual that I would so miss, a feeling of connectedness with the car.
Phil Ressler & David Holzman – you illustrate my point. The Caddy’s 6L80 and the 3 series’s transmission are not DSG or dual-clutch manuals. They are autos with tiptronic/steptronic/etc.
The DSG is very different. Test it out and report back if your mind is changed. It may or may not, but it would be informed.
Although I have yet to drive a car with a DSG gearbox, I don’t think I would opt for one. All things considered, DSG is still essentially an automatic gearbox.
I’d much rather swap the gears myself. I’m too in love with my left leg and right arm being engaged in the driving process to give that up.
If DSG eventually becomes a new standard for automatic gearboxes, good for it. But performance wise, I’d still rather do the work myself.
TeeKay:
The reason the manual drivers who haven’t driven DSG can chime in is simple. The value proposal of a DSG is lost on someone who loves three pedals. A DSG while being mechanically superior to a slushbox, does not provide additional driver involvement, nor does it provide additional vehicle control.
DSGs will sell to those who are HARDCORE on the race track and want the absolute best times and to those who otherwise would buy a standard auto.
Reference Darth4114 for the additional reasons.
I like simple things. I like fun things. I like developing a skill. Driving stick is fun, and requires developing a skill, and is a much simpler device than the alternatives.
And they’re cheaper. Yay!
ScottGSO:
What is the overall market share of stickshifts, 10-15%? Anyone know for sure?
It can be frustrating getting a manual in the car you want. A Nissan salesguy I talked to told me 15% for the Z – half that for the Altima. That sounded low (and – if true – frightfully lame) to me. And speaking of lame, note the base Malibu doesn’t offer a manual.
I prefer stick to autos, but have never tried a DSG. Note that RF makes a great point about the theft deterrent aspects of a manual.
Note 2: I’d like to know how the brain stems at the EPA mileage rate DSG cars? Do they have an auto/econ ‘mode’ to fool the civil servants?
I can’t argue that a manual is better than the best automatics out there, but it is still worlds better than the typical automatic. I also find a certain enjoyment from driving a manual, from rowing through the gears, holding first and then second until the last instant to wring the last bit of acceleration out of the engine, dropping down into third when I want to pass not when the transmission decides I want to pass; all of these joys disappear when I drive an automatic. I just don’t feel as in control of the vehicle. Finally, there is one thing that no automatic can do and that is anticipate future conditions. I can see changes in traffic or the upcoming grade (down or up) and change gears accordingly in anticipation of the changes. There are no autos out there that can do that.
chuckgoolsbee :
April 23rd, 2008 at 4:12 pm
Real men use a stick.
–chuck
And women too. My wife has never owned a car with anything other than a manual.
Even car nuts express astonishment when I say that I drive a car with a six-speed manual transmission. I’ve never driven a car with DSG, but having read favorable reviews, I’d order my next car with such a transmission. I agree with Robert Farago.
On a track, paddle shifts probably would be better. But on the streets, I’d feel as silly playing with paddles as I would shifting a regular automatic from 1 to 2 to 3 to D and back down again. I think I’d leave it in D and treat a DSG the same as I would any other automatic. Driving a decent automatic and letting it do its thing doesn’t bother me, but I have no plans to ever own one.
NetGenHoon – I hear you. And I agree with their sentiments. If I have to choose only 1 transmission, I would take the stick, no doubt. It’s easier to work on, simple to operate, and lots of fun. (Sometimes, I would take the Miata around for no other reasons than to play with the shifter and refreshing the heel-toe technique.)
The thing is, I’m also one who likes to keep an open mind about technology. When I read comments like those from Lumbergh, Phil, and David seemingly equating DSG with automatics, part of me thinks that these guys may not have actually tried the real DSG (as opposed to tiptronics) and thereby cheating themselves out of a potentially good transmission option. I can tell you from experience that driving a SMG in the M3 is just as involving to the senses as a stick. It requires modulation, subtle inputs, rev-matching, heel-toeing, holding the gear until you tell it to shift, etc. — all those things cited by a stick driver. The experience is a bit different because of the missing clutch pedal, but just as involving. That’s why auto drivers usually hate this transmission when they try to drive it like an automatic, and stick drivers usually have an easier time with it. The internals of the tranismission are identical, clucth plate, syncros, and all.
For the group of friends that go out with me every week to attack the twisties and occasionally attend track days, the stick is the standard transmission, no questions asked. However, all of them were surprised once I let them try the SMG and show them how to drive it. It seemed to change their long-held misconceptions about it through thinking that it’s no different than another “slushbox.” After finally getting a chance to try it out, all of them said they would have no problems ordering such a transmission on their next car.
I love cars, so I want to be informed about everything car-related. The DSG is the latest thing in the automotive world, so I couldn’t leave it untested or unexperienced. If somebody says it’s the greatest thing, I wouldn’t simply believe them or dismiss them. I would want to try it out myself. If after someone tries it out, and still doesn’t like it, and tells me why, then it’s all good.
But I guess that’s just me.
TeeKay:
I can tell you from experience that driving a SMG in the M3 is just as involving to the senses as a stick. It requires modulation, subtle inputs, rev-matching, heel-toeing, holding the gear until you tell it to shift, etc. — all those things cited by a stick driver.
Are you talking about the SMG in the new M5? You’re not. Tell me you’re not. Even if you are, tell me you’re not. Please.
Robert — I’m talking about the SMG II in the e46 M3 (not the one in the M5). I’ve lived with it for 3 years, 45,000 miles. I’ve taken it to autocross, track events, and twisties. I’ve used it as a daily driver as well as long-distance cruiser.
I repeat, the problem a lot of journalists and 5-minute test drivers have with this transmission is operator-error. They drive it like they expect an automatic should, then experience bucking and jerking, and then blame it on the transmission. Guess what? It’s not an auto, and the internals are exactly those of a Gertrag 6-speed used in the stick version. If you drive it as you would a stick, then it’s just as smooth and joyous.
For example, when you upshift in a stick, do you lift your right foot off the gas as you change gear, or continue press on the gas? If you lift, notice how the upshift is smoother? If not, notice how it jerks and bangs? Well, the same applies in the SMG. You can drive it just as smoothly as any stick or auto, if you do it correctly.
Again, it’s operator-error.
[On the other hand, the DSG (duall-clutch manual)can be driven just like an auto. I swear, the DSG in the A3 is smoother than all the automatics that I have driven in. In that sense, it’s not as involving as the more primative single-clutch SMG. But that’s why I like the SMG more.]
If I want to row, I will use a row boat.
If you can’t coordinate your left foot and right hand, you should not be driving.
Never bought a slush box (no matter how good). My first car: 1956 MGA, second: 1959 TR3, current: 2008 Honda Fit Sport. Sharp, tight, direct 5 speed, goes around corners like it is on rails. I enjoy driving.
Stick every time.
DSG is nice (my bro’s GTI is so equipped and was quite fun for a while) but I’d rather take a stick over the flappy paddle gearbox.
TeeKay:
Very interesting observations. And you may well have a point.
I spent a day with a Quattroporte that had a clutchless manual.
There was no stick to speak, of bit you could only change gears with the paddles. True, there was a (useless) auto-mode, but it was awful. Or broken.
That said, I liked the paddles on the track just fine. But around town, they were severely annoying. Would I get used to them if I owned the car? Absolutely. But, is Maserati’s system better than a stick and clutch for most of the (rich) people most of the time.
I say no.
I’m in my late 30’s and I will not even consider a new veh. that isn’t available with a “traditional” M/T. Hell, even my 60ish year old Mom waited 3 months for her dealer to find her a M/T ’06 Civic in the color/trim she wanted. Her friends all thought she was nuts but she LOVES it!!! With the exception of my Dad’s auto ’57 Chevy that she drove for a time, she has never driven a “lazomatic” car in her 45+ years of driving.
I require a transmission that lets me shift for myself as this act is elemental to the process of driving an automobile.
Shifting a stick also has the distinct advantage of giving me something to do when I’m not chatting on the phone, reading the newspaper, shaving, applying make-up, brushing my teeth, eating, bathing, playing the clarinet or any of the other myriad activities one may consider suitable accompaniment to piloting several tons of steel at speed down the roadway.
I alternate between automatics and manuals depending on the state of the economy. When times are good, traffic is bad. I switched back to a stick last summer and, sadly for the Bay Area economy, have experienced close to perfect driving conditions ever since.
I’ve been looking forward to the arrival of the Porsche DSG for what seems like forever, but now
that it’s almost here don’t see any immediate need for it. To the contrary, I’ve been thinking that this might be the time to head in the opposite direction and pick up something with a stiff clutch like a 911SC. They’re more fun than any (non-insanely expensive)modern Porsche, and it sure doesn’t look like traffic will be a concern any time in the foreseeable future.
The Caddy’s 6L80 and the 3 series’s transmission are not DSG or dual-clutch manuals. They are autos with tiptronic/steptronic/etc.
&
When I read comments like those from Lumbergh, Phil, and David seemingly equating DSG with automatics, part of me thinks that these guys may not have actually tried the real DSG (as opposed to tiptronics) and thereby cheating themselves out of a potentially good transmission option.
I agree the 6L80 is not a DSG, but it is a double clutch automatic with shifting behavior more DSG-like than a “tiptronic” slushbox, and it can only be shifted sequentially by the driver. The question Jonny posed was: “Dual Clutch Flappy Paddles or a Good Stick?” Well, I have dual clutch but no paddles on one side of that choice, and a 6-speed manny on the other. I’ve driven DSG cars and while that transmission option is even more directly responsive than my 6L80 in manual mode, unlike a true manual you just can’t feel the hardware. The mechanical intimacy isn’t there, even if the dynamic intimacy of driving might be.
On the 6L80, from a GM document:
“The 6L80’s sophistication is exemplified by clutch-to-clutch operation that reduces complexity and packaging. It also enhances the performance feel of the transmission, as shifts feel more immediate and precise.’
“Clutch-to-clutch operation is achieved with three planetary gears, two stationary clutches and three rotating clutches. It is a simple, less complex design that enables the six-speed transmission to be packaged in a size not much larger than a four-speed automatic. Only the first-to-second upshift is a freewheeling action, where the second gear clutch engages while the first gear one-way clutch spins freely. This allows a greater degree of smoothness at lower vehicle speeds.”
Phil
A clutch and stick bring purity to the driving experience. Just like letting your tail hang out with all the electronic nannies switched off, it’s extremely satisfying to go through a series of perfectly executed up/downshifts. With flappies or manumatics, even a monkey could drive like Schumi.
Wow, this is a joke, right? Not like which is better, beach or mountains…If you are an enthusiast, it is a stick all the way. Manumatics, DSG, etc are indicative of the pussification of America…
Stick. If it’s not a stick, it’s not really driving.
These days, the DSG is a respectable alternative to a manual. The DSG is faster shifting and will win on the track. I really have nothing negative to say about DSG. It is automatic done right.
But I will buy a normal manual as long as they are available. I don’t care about winning on the track and for those who were weaned on manual, there is something primal and satisfying about mechanically engaging gears, that can’t be had by pushing a button.
This isn’t about numbers or logic, it is about emotion, about being more intimate with the machine, about using a well practiced skill that fires off the reward centers in your brain. It is about the joy of doing.
It isn’t even a decision, I will keep my stick.
Stick! I had an auto for a short period of time, because I was trying to save money and I got a really good deal. I hated every minute of it and I never stopped stomping on the bare spot where the clutch should have been. I’m embarrassed and ashamed and I will never get an auto again.
I don’t deny the coolness of lightening quick shifts and the vast superiority of DGG over auto but I simply prefer the stick.
TeeKay :
Phil Ressler & David Holzman – you illustrate my point. The Caddy’s 6L80 and the 3 series’s transmission are not DSG or dual-clutch manuals. They are autos with tiptronic/steptronic/etc.
It was not an auto. You had to shift the stick yourself to change gears, but there was no clutch.
TeeKay :
Phil Ressler & David Holzman – you illustrate my point. The Caddy’s 6L80 and the 3 series’s transmission are not DSG or dual-clutch manuals. They are autos with tiptronic/steptronic/etc.
It was not an auto. You had to shift the stick yourself to change gears, the gears were in the same positions as with a stick/clutch, but there was no clutch.
Stick-more fun EVERY time. Faster doesn’t always mean better-ask your sister…
It depends on your reason for self-shifting.
If you do it because you can go faster, DSG types are better than any human.
If you self-shift because driving is a sport, because you enjoy “being one” with the car – manual.
DSGs cannot replicate the sheer joy I feel when I execute a great rev matched shift in a Miata or S2000.
Of course a missed shift or a grinding of a gear goes the other way.
I’m not even going to read the comments on this since I’ve probably read them all already here in the past. I pick stick. Besides the clutch I like my transmission to be non-sequential. Going from 4th down to 2nd via neutral is a good given right. Or so I say.
Small car: Give me a stickshift… more economical and much, much more fun.
Big car or full size truck or van: make it an automatic, please.
My Toyota and Volvo both have sticks and I love ’em that way.
My E150 has an automatic and after years of driving a stickshift-equipped van prior to owning it, I wouldn’t have it any other way. Much easier to deal with in traffic and around town and most especially for towing.
DSG sounds nifty, but also sounds like something extra expensive to deal with when it breaks… probably even more so than an automatic (of course, that’s just speculation). Also, I couldn’t imagine my old MR2 with a DSG, and it was the most fun to drive stickshift out of everything I’ve owned… I miss that car (sniff).
Back in the 1960 s I had a B & M hydro stick ( a modified GM 4 speed hydra-matic) in a streetable C gas drag racer. What a blast. That tranny was so much fun I never wanted a clutch pedal again, not to this day.
Oh my christ, a stick. The more wangers who buys these automatics (touting themselves as manuals), the closer we come to stick-shift-extinction. Boycott that stuff!
Never driven a DSG so I can’t comment.
I prefer stick over a manumatic.
I like an automatic on a car with a big torquey motor.
I wouldn’t know the difference between a good manual and a bad one. I notice some are different but I’m always able to get used to it.
I don’t know how to do throttle “blips” or heel and toe. I don’t think my legs are strong enough for me to hold both over the pedals at the same time.
Technically a CVT is the simplest tranny mechanically because I believe they only have 6 or 7 moving parts. I could be wrong
Well, I have one of each in my garage (it’s lame, I know, but my wife and I each have a GTI). For those that are ripping the DSG as not being a manly or sporting transmission: try one for a week. Honestly, I hate automatics, but the DSG is something different entirely. It’s not simply the incredibly quick shifts (waaaaay faster than humanly possible) but the perfect rev matching that accompanies them that makes it an infinitely better transmission for track work (so I assume; never taken it to the track) or any spirited driving, for that matter. The paddles are great and all, but in sport mode, the transmission holds gears so well that they’re superfluous. So let’s see, it shifts faster, never upsets the chassis (which is of course of vital importance when driving at the limit), allows two hands on the wheel at all times, and frees your left foot to trail-brake and such (without having to master the art of heel-toe). Best. Transmission. Ever.
That said, mine is the manual, and in spite of it’s total inferiority, I’ll take it any day (and I work downtown in a moderately large city).
David Holzman :
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:43 pm
It was not an auto. You had to shift the stick yourself to change gears, but there was no clutch.
There are no 3 series, besides the M3, that has SMG or DCT. What you used was a steptronic gear box, which is an automatic that lets you shift. This is different than a true SMG/DCT, which has the same gearing as a manual, but has an automated clutch.
beetlebug :
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:32 pm
I’m not even going to read the comments on this since I’ve probably read them all already here in the past. I pick stick. Besides the clutch I like my transmission to be non-sequential. Going from 4th down to 2nd via neutral is a good given right. Or so I say.
Um, you can do that with a DCT transmission. You’re able to skip gears on the way up or down.
You can tell that most people here have never used one or even fully understand what it can do.
rpn453 :
April 23rd, 2008 at 7:45 pm
On a track, paddle shifts probably would be better. But on the streets, I’d feel as silly playing with paddles as I would shifting a regular automatic from 1 to 2 to 3 to D and back down again. I think I’d leave it in D and treat a DSG the same as I would any other automatic. Driving a decent automatic and letting it do its thing doesn’t bother me, but I have no plans to ever own one.
I swear. This is fighting a losing battle. DSG/DCT doesn’t have a D or 1, 2, 3. It has the same gearing as a manual, except there is no clutch pedal. There is an automated clutch.
Doesn’t anyone know the difference between a DSG transmission and automatic with the ability to change gears?
kona, I’m sorry but you are fighting a losing battle. I understand the loyalty to a (fully) manual transmission, as I still have one, but the DSG is so far ahead it’s amazing. I think people must see the DSG as the evolution of the old Chrysler AutoStick (remember that?) rather than what it truly is: the evolution of the stick shift. Fight on though, the DSG deserves it.
So lets see Manual = manly stick shift better because you communicate with the road and show that you are a “real” driver!
Driving in my book it is not about gear box or engine it is about trajectories, balance and anticipation. Being born in Europe I learned and drove stick shift until I bought an A3 3.2 DSG.
And now I am screwed I cannot go back to stick. The little secret of the DSG is not the presence of pedal shifter but the sport mode. The car downshift better that you will ever do upshift at the red line (in fact even in D it goes in the red line if you keep accelerating…). Now that enables you to go insanely fast every where in any circumstance on any road.
As for a little anecdote. I had to do a trip to LA from San Diego with a fully automatic Mazda protege. It’s Friday night 7pm in winter and I know I will be bored to death pretty soon. So I decided to do the entire trip on cruise control at 75MPH. I had to release it on only one occasion in the 2 hours trip on a two lane ramp where I had a slow car on each lane. So I did not touch any pedals the gear box stay in 4 at all time and despite that I had one of the most satisfying drive of my life. But then obviously I had to drive with my brain, not my feet.
As for “manly” guys give me a break I prefer to have my right hand under the skirt of my passenger than on a stick…I even learned while I was in Europe how to pass gear with my left hand, but that usually exclude spirited driving…
Phil, I did not know the Caddy’s auto has 2 clutches. I guess no torque converter in it huh? Thanks for the new info.
David Holzman, the single-clutch sequential manual (SMG) is typically found only in the M3, M5, and M6. But for a year or so, BMW did decide to put a much cruder version of the same concept (i.e., actual manual transmission underneath with hydraulic-automated clutch) in the regular 3 series, called SSG. It really sucked, maybe about 10 people tried it altogether, and BMW promptly discontinued that option. You probably tried that.
Ybnrmol and Kona, when I read comments to the effect that stick = macho & auto = girly sissy man, then I know we’re dealing with 16 year old adolescents rather than true enthusiasts and drivers who enjoy driving. The latter would understand that while shifting is a big part of the driving experience, it is not the only things. There is more to a car than the transmission, and more to driving than shifting.
Bytor:
These days, the DSG is a respectable alternative to a manual. The DSG is faster shifting and will win on the track. I really have nothing negative to say about DSG. It is automatic done right.
I agree with you there. DSG is an amazing technology no doubts there.
And to those of you who say SMG/DSG/(insert clutchless manual that isn’t manumatic here) are just as engaging and fun to drive as manuals, I won’t doubt your claims either. I just feel that traditional manual trannys are more rewarding for the driver. Sure you can learn to drive a paddle shifter smoothly, but nothing makes you feel better than a perfectly executed heel-toe downshift while diving into a corner.
I suppose what this boils down to is preference (obviously). But I think this comparison could be somewhat relatable to audiophiles. There are people who still swear by vinyl records and will never buy a CD. It’s really the same argument there I think. Having a physical contact with your audio medium will always give you a purer sound quality. Untrained ears might not be able to tell the differences between vinyl and CD, or even MP3. The same goes for transmissions. Some just prefer the physical contact medium (modulating the clutch with your left foot and swapping cogs with your right hand), rather than having both actions automated for you by flipping the paddles.
I have never driven a DSG, but after having a manual in my Alfa I cannot wait to try a DSG. I became addicted to driving in my first car, which was an automatic. It was so wonderfully direct; both hands stayed at nine and three, one foot modulated the throttle (and by extension, the automatic gearbox), and one foot controlled the braking.
Now I’m having to take a hand off the wheel for each and every shift, which is STILL blowing alarm bells in my head even though I haven’t driven an automatic in a year. Even worse is the footwork; using the same foot for the gas and the brake is naught but eye-swiveling lunacy. Congratulations on putting on the daddy pants and saying you want a manual, but I’ll take a logical set of driving ergonomics anyday.
(ask, oh I dunno, a race car driver).
Then of course, the flappy panels in race cars are connected to a dog box that has not so much in common with the automated manuals and dual clutch systems in road cars.
Now I’m having to take a hand off the wheel for each and every shift
In normal (leisurely) driving I usually have just one hand on the wheel anyway, and the other resting on the arm rest in close proximity to the stick for quick gear changing action when the situation calls for it.
My last 4 cars (’85 Dodge Omni, ’90 Escort GT, ’97 Camaro, ’08 Elantra) were/are all sticks.
Though DSG’s sound intriguing, I actually worry about their reliability; I’ve never had a clutch/tranny failure on any of my “manual” cars.
Still, even in moderate traffic in the suburbs, the “fun” rapidly drains out of rowing a stick. Fortunately, the times when you are driving a stick smoothly and quickly gives you a feeling of mastery over the machine that somehow offsets the fact that life itself generally offers us little control.
And that even goes for the stick in the Elantra, which is certainly not “sporting”, but you’re ultimately in control on the open road.
Interesting comments, all ……..
Personally, I fall into the “give me a stick or give me death” camp. Since a young boy with his first license (and a stinking 90hp Opel Kaddet), I’ve always had at least one car in the stable with a stick — this is a span of 40 years. Automatics and their new computer controlled kin are OK, but I just feel more involved in the driving experience when I need to coordinate two feet with three pedals.
In addition, I have another point to make: With driver training being as bad as it is today, I taught both of my kids (boy & girl) to drive on a stick. I wanted them to get immersed in the driving experience and develop coordination factors that would keep them involved in actual DRIVING and not the damn iPod or cell phone. Although both initially hated it, they actually said that my making them learn to drive a manual, it helped in their awareness of the car’s dynamics and made them more alert to what was going on around them. I enrolled my daughter in a day course in performance driving, and she whipped the other 15 guys that were also taking the course. I knew I had done my job when the instructor called me to the side and said “you know, I’ve been teaching this stuff for a long time, and your daughter is the first student I have had that successfully countersteered out of the skid I induced with the emergency brake on the wet skidpad.” I feel that had I not “treated” her to the experience of a manual transmisssion (and other car control techniques), she wouldn’t be the safe and aware driver she is today.
davey49:
I wouldn’t know the difference between a good manual and a bad one. I notice some are different but I’m always able to get used to it.
I don’t know how to do throttle “blips” or heel and toe. I don’t think my legs are strong enough for me to hold both over the pedals at the same time.
Given your first paragraph, I think you’d have little trouble learning the techniques in your second paragraph. Splurge a bit – pay a good instructor.
In the 80’s, I was a clueless manual driving teen. Then I enlisted, went to Germany for 2 years, and had a wonderful German girlfriend teach me a lot (about driving).
My car has a bad stick. Yet, perfectly executed double-declutch downshifts into second (to avoid worn synchro-gnash) give me carnal pleasure on a daily basis.
My wife doesn’t drive a stick, and that has been all I drive. Given the good reviews of the DSG, the dual clutch, and the lack of a power-robbing torque converter, I would seriously consider a GTI with DSG as my next car. To me it sounds like a perfect marriage-saving compromise of fun and accessability.
While I can appreciate the technology I have no personal interest in the “Monkeymission”. If you can’t drive a car using all four limbs at the same time then you should have an automatic. Especially if you’re a F1 driver!
gotta have a stick
manual transmission
/end thread
I’ve driven a DSG, albeit at a few dealers on test drives, So I wont claim to know what it is like on a daily basis. However, I like a standard with the H-ish pattern and neutral. Due to habit or whatever I prefer to be able to slide from one gear to which ever one I want via the gates rather than having to “skip” some via the sequential method if necessary.
TeeKay :
April 24th, 2008 at 1:33 am
Phil, I did not know the Caddy’s auto has 2 clutches. I guess no torque converter in it huh? Thanks for the new info.
TeeKay, this is not new info, it is incorrect. The GM 6L80-E in the Caddys, Corvettes, and some SUV’s is a traditional torque converter automatic. The “clutches” he referred to in his quote from GM literature are the clutch bands that exist in all modern automatics. While it may have some different internal design features, it’s still a slushbox.
When I read comments like those from Lumbergh, Phil, and David seemingly equating DSG with automatics, part of me thinks that these guys may not have actually tried the real DSG (as opposed to tiptronics) and thereby cheating themselves out of a potentially good transmission option.
Phil Ressler:
If you read my post, you would see that I said I wouldn’t deny that there are some automatics out there now that are very good and they can shift from one gear to the next faster than I can. But, none can anticipate what I can see with my eyes and act pre-emptively in anticipation of an event. I am also of the opinion that you just don’t feel as connected to the car if it is an automatic of any type, and a DSG is just a type of automatic. If you don’t have a manually operated clutch and gear selector, it’s an automatic.
Reading these posts also brought to my mind the different feel between different types of manuals. I most definitely felt a more direct connection between the stick and the transmission of a rear wheel drive 350Z that I test drove and the stick and transmission of the front wheel drive Mazda6 that I currently drive. Then it dawned on me that there is a more direct connection.
konaforever :
April 24th, 2008 at 12:35 am
There are no 3 series, besides the M3, that has SMG or DCT.
SMG was available in North America on the previous generation 3-series and on Z4s, 5-series, and 6-series from 2004-2006. This was a different transmission than the one used on the Ms. There is only one shift program available. The paddles on the steering wheel are similar to the ones on late-model BMWs with automatics and sports package. Instead of having separate paddles for downshifting or upshifting, each paddle can handle both downshifting and upshifting (push for downshift, and pull for upshifting).
After experiencing the M3 at the BMW Ultimate Drive yesterday, I must say STICK.
# jchennav :
April 24th, 2008 at 11:39 am
SMG was available in North America on the previous generation 3-series and on Z4s, 5-series, and 6-series from 2004-2006. This was a different transmission than the one used on the Ms. There is only one shift program available. The paddles on the steering wheel are similar to the ones on late-model BMWs with automatics and sports package. Instead of having separate paddles for downshifting or upshifting, each paddle can handle both downshifting and upshifting (push for downshift, and pull for upshifting).
You’re right. I just did a search. I stand corrected.:) It looks like it’s quite rare though.
I am connected to the road most directly via hands on the steering wheel and ass in the seat. The transmission is only putting power to the road, and while then you’re connected to the transmission, all you’re doing is telling it what ratio to use when; if I can do that with an intuitive control that allows my hands to stay on the wheel, I’ll take it 100% of the time. I was a proponent of the manual until manufacturers decided they would let people choose their gears by other methods, and have owned 3 cars with sticks in 4 years, ranging from not very good (92 Talon), to quite good (96 Integra), to just about perfect (99 Miata). If I could get an S2000/Miata with flappy paddles that allow me to choose the right gear every time, I would, even though their manuals are the best in the biz.
To stir the pot amongst all of the manual-lovers, if rev-matching, double-clutching, and heel-toeing are the essence of fun driving, I must be a dullard because those actions are too easy for me to consider them skills. Sorry, just saying that if they’re not relegated to your medulla oblongata, then I don’t believe you’re really doing those things. And if you are, and they’re not automatic responses to visual, auditory, and tactile inputs, then please don’t do them on public roads.
Some of us have three legs….which is why we are so good at driving STICK.
If you were only blessed with two legs and a nubbin (posers), stick with DSG. HA
“Phil, I did not know the Caddy’s auto has 2 clutches. I guess no torque converter in it huh? Thanks for the new info.”
TeeKay, this is not new info, it is incorrect. The GM 6L80-E in the Caddys, Corvettes, and some SUV’s is a traditional torque converter automatic. The “clutches” he referred to in his quote from GM literature are the clutch bands that exist in all modern automatics. While it may have some different internal design features, it’s still a slushbox.
Well, let’s separate a couple of things here. The info I posted is correct, just not complete — the 6L80 is a double-clutch shiftable automatic transmission. But if also does have a torque converter. However, the two stationary clutches do assume the role of double-clutch auto sans slush chamber. That is to say, this transmission holds a gear as the next one engages before letting go, so no freewheeling except for between the 1>2 shift. The transmission feels much less like a slushbox than a “tiptronic” style automatic. Its manual sequential shifts are pretty quick, and in full auto performance mode it is surprisingly smart in anticipating gear changes during aggressive driving once it has had sufficient exposure to the driver. It is a little ham-handed when brand new.
If you read my post, you would see that I said I wouldn’t deny that there are some automatics out there now that are very good and they can shift from one gear to the next faster than I can. But, none can anticipate what I can see with my eyes and act pre-emptively in anticipation of an event. I am also of the opinion that you just don’t feel as connected to the car if it is an automatic of any type, and a DSG is just a type of automatic. If you don’t have a manually operated clutch and gear selector, it’s an automatic.
I agree with you generally. Look, as I said in my original post, if I only had one car it would be a stick. 90% of all the cars I’ve owned have had manual transmissions, and my early years of car ownership saw year-round sports cars in heavy-weather four-seasons locations. But I also agree with someone else here who noted that they prefer automatics in large cars and full-size pickups, especially quad-cabs. I accept the performance advantage of a real DSG, by the way, but the engagement factor with the machine — not so much the road — just isn’t at the same level without having a shiftgate to deal with, the timing, and the friction point of a foot-operated clutch. I completely understand, however, people who prefer not to deal with it but are nevertheless skilled and engaged drivers.
Phil
Phil Ressler:
I didn’t mention it earlier, but I can see the definite advantage to having an automatic in a 4WD truck-provided you are actually using the 4WD capabilities of course.
And, it sounds like we do basically agree. It’s very possible that I prefer a manual transmission precisely because you do feel more connected and involved in the driving of the car and less like a passenger along for the ride. It’s just more fun whether you’re comparing it to a DSG, SMG, or 4 speed “slush box.” Some people get it and some don’t. Those who don’t, can’t understand why anyone would want the trouble of shifting a manual; those who do, can’t understand why anyone would want to give up that feeling of connectedness and involvement. This isn’t a put down of those who don’t “get it”; it’s just the only way I can explain why even driving enthusiasts can argue over something like this (versus the bubble gum popper who can’t drive a stick, we all know why those people drive automatics).
“Lumbergh: …Some people get it and some don’t. Those who don’t, can’t understand why anyone would want the trouble of shifting a manual; those who do, can’t understand why anyone would want to give up that feeling of connectedness and involvement. “
And there are some who can appreciate both types, enjoy both, and understand the preferences for the pros & cons of both.
Ultimately electric drive is the future.
Soon the transmission will be obsolete so the Flappy Paddles may not even outlive the manual.
My goal is to have no transmission at all, if it isn’t manual. But I figure I have another 10-20 years of manual shift cars.
Eventually my main vehicle will likely be electric drive, but I will keep an old manual for Sunday drives and scaring the youngsters. :-)
Thankfully I have the advantage of two vehicles: one an auto and one a manual. The 2nd car is the first auto I’ve ever owned and I have to admit it is nice to relax and drive it some days.
But for the most part I’ll always have a manual and given the choice between the two I’ll opt to go with the 3rd pedal.
I need to be in control of the shift points and I do like to skip gears. Hell who am I kidding, it’s just more fun.
konaforever :
April 24th, 2008 at 12:46 am
I swear. This is fighting a losing battle. DSG/DCT doesn’t have a D or 1, 2, 3. It has the same gearing as a manual, except there is no clutch pedal. There is an automated clutch.
Doesn’t anyone know the difference between a DSG transmission and automatic with the ability to change gears?
Sorry, I really shouldn’t have commented before actually trying one. I thought you simply told the DSG when to shift; I didn’t know you had a conventional stick shift with it. I assumed it was like an F1 or Ferrari transmission.
Now I’m curious. I’ve got to try one of these things! How fast can you move the stick from one gear to another? Does it ever grind if you do it really quickly or really slowly?
EDIT: The Audi TT 2.0T with DSG shown in the picture I’m looking at (C/D June 07) has a shifter that definitely does not directly mechanically shift the gears inside the transmission. It looks like it only has up or down. It seems like this transmission could be programmed to shift gears without my input if I wanted to use it like a conventional automatic. It also looks like there are paddles on the steering wheel, which would confirm that the gear shifting is not actually physically done by the driver. Can someone clarify how this transmission actually works for me? It still seems like the act of shifting it yourself would be similar to shifting through the gears of a conventional automatic (but without the torque converter mushiness), contrary to what konaforever is telling me.
Anything without a clutch.