While it seems perfectly natural to assume that clicks on cars reveal trends down at the showroom, I'm not entirely convinced. For example, Autoblog's post on GayWheels top ten researched vehicles would have you believe that a large number of Dodge Caliber buyers are that way inclined. So when the National Automobile Dealers Association (NADA) put out a press release claiming "interest in motorcycles increases as commuters seek two-wheel alternatives" based on their website's traffic, I was interested to see if they mentioned any "real world" impact. To their credit, they did, right from the git-go. "Motorcycle buying interest at NADAguides.com increased 48 percent in March 2008 compared to March 2007, even though sales of motorcycles were down over seven percent at the end of 2007, with NADAguides.com estimating sluggish sales so far this year." And yet, motorcycle ed Lenny Sims is ready to climb out on that limb. "We believe the current state of the economy, coupled with recent summer fuel price predictions, has caused consumer mindset about motorcycles to shift. In our opinion, motorcycles have become attractive options as primary vehicles for daily drivers — due to their fuel efficiency — and are no longer considered just a luxury, 'secondary-vehicle' purchase." Your take?
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High insurance / death rates do not outweigh rising fuel costs, at least for me.
They may be viable in the southwest where it rarely rains and never snows, but up here in the north motorcycles will largely remain recreational vehicles.
Mmmm, high death rates.
My next car will definitely be a motorcycle.
Sorry Dad!
If large cities pass laws to allow motorcycles to drive between cars at red lights to get ahead of the pack you’ll see a bigger swing.
You guys are unbelievable.
High insurance is fixed by buying something smaller than 1000cc’s. If you’re new to riding, you might not want one of those anyway. A nice Kawasaki KLR650 (perfect for commuting!) would run you all of about $10/mo.
Death rates. Yeah, well. How do you argue that. It’s a vehicle with no protection other than it’s rider’s “sixth sense”.
Here in CA (yes, I know, I know, but it’s Northern CA) real motorcyclists ride rain or shine. I’ve done many commutes in the rain, have a suit just for that, and often see other motorcyclists. I will grant you that snow is another issue altogether–one that we don’t face here.
Oh, and yes- lane sharing is legal here in CA. Even at stoplights.
As a motorcyclist, I’ve seen this debated on cycle-centric forums before. Unless you buy a beater bike for next to nothing, or get rid of/de-insure your car altogether, the economics usually do not support the use of a motorcycle to save money.
Do it for love, baby!
detroit1701 nailed it. The only thing I would add is that motorcycles are not practical as daily drivers in northern climates. You have to be real hardcore to drive a motorcycle between October and May here in Ontario.
The majority of motorcycle sales in North America are big bore cruisers which are primarily used as recreational “toys” in most instances.
Scooter sales seem to have peaked, especially that in many areas a 50cc scooter does not have enough speed to stay with the flow of traffic.
Sport bikes are challenging to insure for many people.
Will motorcycles cross from recreational to transportation? People that ride bikes are aware that many motorists have little to no respect for the individual on a bike. Which raises the element of danger in a transportation application.
I have had a bike since the age of 10. Would never even consider using one on the road. Too many variables (by which I mean idiots) beyond my control. Every incident is a potential catastrophe.
It’s tempting though. Lane splitting, gliding effortlessly through city traffic, squirting away at stoplights, slashing commute times, and so forth.
But again, with Mary Clearasil talking on her cell about her evening out, or Joe sixpack living up to his name, it’s only a matter of time before all of the time saved is spent in a hospital bed, or a special line at the airport where all of your metal screws single you out for special attention.
I really tried to convert to a motorcycle. However, it becomes are real pain to don the armored riding suit (an absolute necessity when you commute) every freakin time you need to go somewhere, and there is the nagging paranoia all day long that someone is messing with your bike when it is parked and you’re away. I finally gave up riding when I started saying after every ride, “Thank god I didn’t wreck this time.” No thanks.
Do your average motorcycles do any better than a Prius in MPG?
I have no desire to ride a donorcycle for the obvious reasons. When I was in my 20s and early 30s, I did almost all of my transportation on a bicycle, right through Wash. DC winters. I could imagine doing some of that again if gas prices got about 50% higher, although nowhere near to the degree I did it before. (Bicycles are far safer than donorcycles, in large part because they just don’t go very fast (I’m a journalist, the first article I ever published was on bicycle safety, and I wrote it because I wanted to know what to do to keep myself safe)).
Worse than death is the prospect of traumatic brain injury or spinal injury. There are probably lots of those for every death on motorcycles.
Most motorcycles don’t get particularly good fuel economy… not better than a Prius, anyway. Some 200’s and scooters do better but nobody I know rides anything like that.
Factor in the safety and the probable need to keep a car, anyway, extra insurance, registration, etc, buying one for commuting probably doesn’t pay off. If it’s part of your “recreation” budget, anyway, that’s another matter.
What’s the probable life, in miles, of a motorcyle? I thought it was significantly less than that of a car. And the last I knew motorcycle maintenance was fairly pricey.
My two-wheeled alternative is a bicycle but I have a commute that makes it a reasonably practical alternative. And I use the car when the weather is bad or circumstances otherwise dictate. Low purchase price, easy to store, no additional insurance or registration, operating costs are low (every few years, it needs new tires, 2 @ $20 each) and it runs on almost any kind of carbohydrate, including E-5 – beer!
I drive my 125cc Vespa on a daily basis in my big-city home. Nothing beats it in terms of speed, ease of parking, low tax and insurance, and for general stimulation of the mind.
(Of course, I live in a free country where sidewalk parking is OK).
Generally, I find it safer than bicyling, since I can keep up with traffic. A few years ago I slipped on a wet road when somebody backed out of a parking space without looking and subsequently had a grotesquely enlarged, purple right thigh and buttocks for six weeks. Since then, I’ve have had the words “drive carefully, you idiot!” tatooed on my brain.
I rode a Suzuki Intruder 700 for 12 months in Illinois. No heated gear, no radio, not even a windscreen. There’s no such thing as bad weather; just wrong attire. And scooters are like chubby girls….
If I babied it I got 45mpg. If I rode it like I stole it I got 43mpg. If only I could find a nice diesel bike and talk my wife into owning two.
Riding a bike just scares the hell out of me. I commute 20 miles, so a bicycle is out of the option, esp. since it’s mostly highways, but if I move back to Europe, I’m likely to commute on a bike (and save gym time while doing so!) if the city has good bike lanes (i.e. safe ones).
A motorcycle isn’t inherently dangerous. It’s the cars around a bike that cause the danger. A motorcyclist is massively outnumbered by cell-phone chattering dimwits in SUVs.
I don’t know any motorcycle accident stats. I do know that any motorcycle accident is FAR more likely to cause brain/spinal trauma or death than a typical car crash. Even a minor wipeout can cause maiming if the biker lacks his leather Batman gear.
An SUV can hit a Yaris at congested urban speeds (25mph) and chances are, the Yaris guy will walk away–fuming but unhurt. That SUV hits a motorcyclist and they’ll be scooping that guy off the pavement.
Most bikes get excellent gas mileage. I ride a Harley softail with a evolution motor and get around 42 mpg with city commutes and nearly 60 mpg in some instances on the highway. Now a evolution motor is not small motor by any means 1340 ccs. It’s not the bike you have or the motor it’s how you ride it. I don’t ride my motorcycle for good gas mileage but I think more people are looking at them as an alternative. Yes, if you ride it like you stole it then don’t expect great gas mileage.
Not only would I never climb over a donorcycle again, I actually sold my collector car and bought a pop-up camper new, instead.
I got tired of absolute moron cell phone users and other sub-moronic imbeciles who happened to be behind the wheel of a deadly projectile (aka automobile, pickumup truck or stupid utility vehicle) paying absolutely no attention while I was trying to stay safe in my 1962 Corvair convertible (I know, I know, it’s supposedly an oxymoron to try to stay safe in a Corvair convertible).
After seeing typical (and I use that word in the most sarcastic manner you can imagine) driving habits deteriorate over the last 10 years especially, I finally decided I valued my life much more than having a classic car.
Too many damn fools don’t understand the actual concept of what stop signs mean here in Michigan and simply blow through them, turning in front of you.
You haven’t lived (deep sarcasm) until you’ve either been on a motorcycle riding around here, or been in a Corvair Convertible with swing-axles, no roll bar, 9″ drum brakes, no collapsable steering column (except your sternum, of course) to find that imbecile #947 has just pulled right in front of you from a side road while you’re cruising at 50.
“If I babied it I got 45mpg. If I rode it like I stole it I got 43mpg.”
“I ride a Harley softail with a evolution motor and get around 42 mpg with city commutes and nearly 60 mpg in some instances on the highway.”
Not good enough. Everything considered, especially here in the mid-west where the climate is seldom salubrious, a B class car like the Fit or Yaris will be cheaper than a 2 wheeler.
Regarding fuel economy: my ’89 Ninja 600 could pull off low to mid 50 MPG in mixed riding with a passenger and some spirited bursts. That’s 20 year old tech in a package that could outrun a Corvette in the quarter mile. Smaller bikes get better mileage; guys with Ninja 250’s claim mid-60’s or better and still have a top end north of 100 MPH.
The problem is that a lot of the money saved in gas gets spent on tires. Even a “sport-touring” compound will often wear out in 10k miles. And don’t think that because there’s only two of them that they’re cheaper than car tires to replace.
Also, the vast majority of motorcycles don’t have nearly the fuel and emissions controls that cars do (no cat and either carburated or open loop FI)- they’re freaking dirty. If I warmed up my bike in the garage (doors open), it used to set off the fire alarm.
Financially and environmentally, I don’t think there’s much in riding a bike. Then again, life’s not only about money and saving the world.
I wish we had a culture that allowed two wheeled vehicles such as motorbikes and bicycles to be ridden safely. We do not. I will not ride my bicycle on a public raod, even tho I’d love to. I commute at an average speed of about 20 mph to work each day, i can ride my bike comfortably ar about 15 mph. I’d get a good work out, probably not need the gym membershp any more either.
Not to mention motor driven two wheelers. I suppose we in the states do not live in that world. dammit
I’m sorry but I see a lot of uninformed opinions in these responses. On the large motor engine of the spectrum I had a Yamaha Road Star Warrior, 1700cc, that I averaged 55mpg on. I now have a DL1000 Suzuki that gets a little worse mileage but I’m still around 45mpg average. I also have a Honda Reflex 250cc scooter that will keep up with highway traffic on my commute that gets an average of 70mpg with my large self on it, I imagine if I were a normal size person I could do a lot better.
From the forums I look at the large, expensive bikes are taking a hit in sales but the smaller, more fuel efficient bikes are getting a lot more interest. The new for 2008 Kawasaki Ninja 250 is getting a lot of interest for $3499 and riders are claiming 80mpg by dropping a tooth on the rear sprocket. In addition perhaps if more people would get out and ride motorcyclists would have a better chance of not getting punted into a roadside ditch by inattentive cagers as there would be more educated folks on the road.
So yes, there are many choices out there that get better mileage than a Prius for much less money and they’re not as ugly and uninspiring as a Yaris.
I used to ride rain or snow. Insurance costs me a bunch ($500 a year, almost as much as my car), but I get 65mpg and the bike cost me $3200 new. Plus, it’s easy to park, cheap to service, and I’m having way more fun.
Too bad my commute now is a 5-minute walk. That’s your ultimate gas savings solution. I spend less than $30 on gas each month right now.
I’ve already seen several Smart cars on the roads around here. Honda Fits are all over the place. The Prius is one of the most common cars on the road.
People in N. California are definitely buying fuel efficient vehicles, but they are going to continue buying four wheeled ones.
The great news is that little by little visibility on the roads in improving as more and more of the monster trucks and SUVs get parked during the week and are being used as special occasion vehicles while small cars are the commuters.
My problem is my wife doesn’t want me to tie the kids on to the back of the bike. Something about safety…
That’s my real problem though; no place for the kiddos. I pick them up and take them to school/daycare occasionally so two wheels is not an option.
Tex: Sidecar :)
That’s all I have to say about that.
I have a 30 mile roundtrip commute to work that is done on my bicycle once western NY temps become reasonable. There is no better way to become a defensive driver than to get on two wheels.
If you want a better chance of getting noticed on a motorcycle install a headlight oscillator. I read a few comments by riders who likened the differnce between riding without one and with one to be like wondering if anyone sees you to feeling like you’re the lead escort of a nudist parade. I’ve seen bikers with headlight oscillators on the road a few times. It actually takes effort to ignore one of these riders, especially if he is in your rearview.
Motorcycling: you either get it, or you don’t. And if you don’t get it, you are typically prejudiced/misinformed. It still amazes me how strongly and negatively people in the U.S. react to motorcyling. But it’s my choice, and it has practically no impact on you. Why do you care what I do?
Casual motorcycling is becoming more of a luxury in this recession. Lots of chrome is for sale on CL these days. But the sub-$3000 bikes go in hours in my experience. Commuting? I have noticed more scooters in urban areas lately, but no more motorcycles than usual. A new uber scooter, with ABS, is not a money-saving move. Factor in gas savings + and extra monthly payment, and you’re probably coming out behind. I do it because I love motorbikes. It’s my overriding passion.
I was a 3-season rider in Colorado in the days before electrically heated suits were common, and then a year-round motorcycle commuter in San Diego.
Maybe I lost my youthful delusions of immortality, or maybe I’m just a coward these days, but I have no desire to ride a motorcycle in traffic ever again in my life.
If they develop a motorcyclist airbag suit that inflates milliseconds before impact, turning me into the Michelin Man, or a human beach ball, I’d probably ride again.
If you enjoy it, go for it.
There is a reason the lower end bikes are the ones selling though. It takes a LOT of miles to make the math work on an expensive bike. Once you do the math, you figure out the real cost of owning a car is depreciation and insurance. Gas is still cheaper than water.
Making a clear financial case for motorcycles as cheap transport is very dependent on your commute. 1970s Honda 90s could get 100 mpg+, but top out at maybe 40 mph. (If I could avoid the freeway on my commute, I’d ride one for 3 seasons here in the Utah mountains). Small bore scooters are similar. Some modern 250s can do in the 60-70 mpg range. Savings in fuel cost over, say, a Honda Fit are present but not as high as you might think. (The increase in mpg from 15 to 20 saves more money than 40 to 45).
I’ve been a rider for 10+ years, and will continue to ride until I am too old to do so. It is a real passion for me. I understand the inherent risks, and they are acceptable to me. I don’t expect everyone to feel that way. Bikes have lots of intangible benefits as well, but again you have to be the sort of person for whom those work. I’d love to see more riders on the road, as it would increase our visibility to the general motoring public.
Having ridden both bicycles and motorcycles on the road, I feel far safer on a motorcycle — being able to keep up with traffic is a real benefit.
Recreational second vehicle, the real numbers (sales) bear it out.
@ Robert Schwartz
Total cost of ownership is hard to argue. While the initial cost of a Harley may be more than other bikes I would rate its dependability right up with any vehicle mfg. Insurance is cheaper, parts are easy to get especially with a dealer network that’s always open on Saturdays in most also on Sunday’s as well. Maintenence is easy and repairs are far less complex than any car built in the last decade. To top it off my Harley won’t depreciate like that Yaris.
Yesterday, on the way home, Suzie Sellfoan blew through a red light as I watched. Yep, she was yakking on the phone. For someone on the cross-street, her approach would have been masked by a line of cars. Had anyone else been traveling through the intersection from the cross street, their first clue could have been when they were struck from the side at 40-45mph.
I “get” motorcycling. I’ve owned two and I really enjoyed it but they’re long gone, I have other sources of fun, instead. Some choose to keep riding… that’s OK for them.
But I don’t think it matters how good your defensive driving skills are, there’s always the risk of some unhappy situation that you didn’t see or anticipate. In a car, you’ve got a much better chance of surviving the resulting accident. On foot or on a bicycle, at least your own speed is low, which takes some of the potential force out of any collision (and a foot/bike path is an option).
Motorcycle to save a few bucks on gas? Not worth it.
I have to say that Vespas and other scooters seem to be becoming more popular in the Southeast. A friend of mine bought one to go to work everyday and got rid of her car (they share her husband’s car if they need to). It seems to work well in the local downtown area where we live. Personally, I stick to my bike or my two feet most of the time (I live two blocks from work).
Motorcycles work well in certain places. Unfortunately none of them are in America. These places are more like urban areas of India or Taiwan.
If everybody rode a motorcycle, safety wouldn’t be as much of an issue. Not only is there less mass involved in the accident, but everyone is more careful because a) everyone is exposed / unprotected and b) no one can talk on a cell phone, drink a coffee, or smoke a cigarette while riding. Restrict riding to the cities and vehicles are generally moving slower as well.
The benefits are cheaper costs for the bike as well as for fuel consumption. Disadvantage is everyone ends up riding without any regard to traffic rules.
@jpc0067: Motorcycling: you either get it, or you don’t. And if you don’t get it, you are typically prejudiced/misinformed. It still amazes me how strongly and negatively people in the U.S. react to motorcyling. But it’s my choice, and it has practically no impact on you. Why do you care what I do?
I noticed many people saying it is not for them, but no one criticizing others for riding a bike, so I am not sure what you are talking about? Are you building a strawman for some further argument?
And for why not many folks in my area commute on bikes, here are my reasons:
1. Have you tried to wear that leather batman outfit over a suit when going to work?
2. No economic justification (additional insurance – no one will REPLACE their car, just add to it), additional wear, tear, maintenance, and funny outfits
3. Little fuel efficiency gain over available four-wheeled solutions (like Prius, Civic Hybrid, etc)
4. Weather
5. Accident impact on your health and life
6. Likely worse than an automobile environmental impact
In fact, the only reason for riding a bike would be the use of carpool lanes, stolen from taxpayers in the first place and arbitrarily given away to moms and their babies riding in an Expedition, and to the very politicians in limos (2 people in a vehicle, right?), while Joe the working Stiff in his car is stuck in traffic jams caused by effectively closing down a lane in the most needed areas on the freeway.
As much as I would like the last privilege, I cannot justify the first 6 factors.
You want to make motorcycles more acceptable in this country? Mandate that those who get their driver’s license HAVE to only ride a motorcycle for the first two years before they are allowed to drive a car. People will be more alert to bikes once they are in a car because the average MC rider pays better attention to their surroundings than those in a car who have never ridden on a bike.
Sure, there will be lots of injuries and deaths (the Darwin factor) the first decade or so, but in the grand scheme of things, there would be better car drivers on the road once they have to learn how to properly drive.
@hwyhobo
I wouldn’t swear to it but, I think you just proved jpc0067’s point. I ride for enjoyment and the experience as most riders will tell you. I don’t ride to save a few $$ on gas. It’s simply another toy in the stable that I enjoy.
hwyhobo,
If you ever owned a motorcycle, you would know about the attitudes you catch from people who think you are a crazy mad man for riding. It’s gotten a bit better since arley made a comeback.
I like your bit on the commuter lanes. Amen.
I was curious about your item number 6. How does a motorcycle have worse impact than a car?
KixStart makes a great point. People that ride motorcycles are usually people who enjoy riding enough that they can balance the risk with their personal reward. I think it is highly unlikely that someone who has never dreamed of riding will decide to do so simply for the purpose of fuel savings.
On the other hand, many who have wanted to buy a motorcycle but couldn’t justify it to the significant other may now have some ammunition!
As for insurance, claiming you can insure a KLR650 for only $10 a month is fine for you, but won’t apply to everyone. My 7 year old 600 sportbike will cost me about $550 to insure for half a year. That is with liability only — no collision, no theft, no fire. For that reason I only insure the bike for the 6-7 months when the weather is good here.
Robert,
Can you take time to research historical data? What happened to motorcycle sales after the Iranian oil embargo in Spring 1979 through the previous real dollars fuel price peak in 1981? I recall then that media reports trumpeted a similar spike in motorcycle interest (though we didn’t have web clicks to gauge it), but that real world increase in motorcycle adoption for routine transportation was merely incidental and any bump failed to persist. Although for other reasons entirely, the recreational bike sector, including trail, grew throughout the 1980s/90s.
The brief time I’ve spent on motorcycles has been seductive and thrilling. But I’ve had four friends killed on motorcycles, and that doesn’t count mere acquaintances lost. In all those cases, death came in an instant by a blindside assault from a car, truck or bus. No other single cause of death has taken that many people from my personal network so far. Not cancer, heart disease or crime.
I’ll stick to my continuing series of convertibles.
Phil
I’m a life-long motorcyclist. I’ve commuted on two wheels in Boston, New York City and Columbus Ohio.
First off, in my opinion, anyone who tosses out the term “donorcycles” has too much bias to be taken seriously. It’s one of those terms that immediately puts me on the defensive. Yes, there are a lot of under-skilled riders who get killed, but I firmly believe that a smart rider can drastically reduce the odds. Blind intersection? Idiot running a red light? ALL of these sorts of situations are not only avoidable, they are reliably predictable. Knowing that, the smart rider adjusts, planning for the worst case in every scenario.
There is absolutely no doubt that my many miles on two wheels have made me a much safer rider and driver. I approach riding as if I were getting into a fighter plane: the concentration level goes up and I get “on my game” in a hyper-alert (by car standards) state. For me, it’s fun. I really enjoy it.
Weather? As was said, it just means that you don’t have the right gear.
The only place where I’ve actually been frightened was on the Garden State Parkway. I don’t ride on that road any more. Way too many people drive like idiots and with five lanes, they can come from anywhere.
Cars? I love them. But anyone can drive a car these days. It takes dedication and skill to stay alive and unhurt on a bike. Those of us who aspire to this have something that car drivers don’t.
I started riding offroad at the age of 13. When I could ride on the road it seemed like a natural progression to me. I often said that my bike handling skills from all the years of motocross put me way ahead of the average street rider. In the early 90’s I only owned a bike, a Honda CB450t. Great bike by the way. I would bring home the groceries hanging on the bars.
This article comes at an interesting time for me, i found myself in the local Vespa shop the other day. I was quite surprised to see the prices on most models north of $5k. I have been kicking around the idea of another bike. I have a 50 mile roundtrip commute so bicycles are not really an option. I sold my last bike, a Yamaha Royal Star about 6 years ago when my daughter was 2. Ultimately, as a single parent, I can’t justify the risk.
Also I have not really ridden too much in this cell phone madness that exists today. I really think that phones and cars do not mix and that these hands free laws are really BS. Most people I see on the road have no business driving at all, let alone driving and talking.
I would love to have another bike, but here in So California, I think there is too much risk.
KixStart re his bicycle: and it runs on almost any kind of carbohydrate, including E-5 – beer!
KixStart,
I did that once, years ago, filled my water bottle with beer on a bicycle trip. Tasted so good, I got another. Then my muscles began to turn to rubber. Finally, facing a long uphill, I conked. Luckily, there was a museum right there, and luckily, I was only 21, so I metabolized the stuff pretty quickly and was able to go on after about 45 minutes.
Been riding for about 26 years now. I’m on bike no. 8, which is actually an old beater 750 I bought off CL last year for $800. Runs great!
Over on the MC forums where I post, we often get people coming in right after gas prices spike. Sometimes they think they can save a lot of gas money by getting a bike, other times I get the impression that they’ve wanted a bike for years but haven’t been able to get the wife/parents to approve and so they’re trying to use the “but it will save me so much money!” argument as a pretext for getting the two wheeled toy they want.
Thing is, by the time you crunch the numbers, it usually doesn’t save you a dime. As has already been pointed out, most of this country is not the kind of place where a motorcycle can replace a car, the best it can do is augment it, which means you’re still paying for a car, you just aren’t driving it as much. Then you have to factor in training, equipment and insurance.
You also have to figure maintenance: My 3cyl Triumph required valve adjustments at 12k mile intervals, at a cost of ~$400. New chain and sprockets at 26k were about $500. Auto drivers used to getting 40,000 miles on a set of tires might be shocked to find that tires for a sportbike can be used up in as little as 4,000 miles – and that’s street miles, take it to the track and you can easily use up a tire less than 1,000 miles. Cost of a decent high performance tire can also top $200 per tire installed. Even on my relatively mild cruisers I’ve never gotten more than 14,000 miles out of a tire.
As for the accident thing, you can either be obsessed with it or you can be aware and deal with it. In 26 years and roughly half a million miles of riding I’ve been in two accidents. Most motorcycle accidents are avoidable by the rider (even where they are someone else’s fault.) In any case, I’m not going to let fear keep me from doing something I love. At the end of the day, motorcyclists face the same fatality rate as Prius drivers: 1 person, 1 death, sooner or later.
But the bottom line is that motorcycling is not really an economically viable way to get around high gas prices. A small, used econobox will save you much more money if that’s what you need to do. Motorcycles, like boats, are basically toys.
3. Little fuel efficiency gain over available four-wheeled solutions (like Prius, Civic Hybrid, etc)
I’d be curious as to how many readers of TTAC have traded in one car for a smaller, more economical car. The last I heard, everyone was towing boats to Moab.
jpc0067 :
Motorcycling: you either get it, or you don’t. And if you don’t get it, you are typically prejudiced/misinformed. It still amazes me how strongly and negatively people in the U.S. react to motorcyling. But it’s my choice, and it has practically no impact on you. Why do you care what I do?
I suspect most of us on TTAC feel as I do. I like motorcycles, motorcyclists, I always wish them to be safe from cars in my head. It’s just a risk I am not going to take.
bunkie :
First off, in my opinion, anyone who tosses out the term “donorcycles” has too much bias to be taken seriously.
This is what transplant surgeons call them.
I can believe, as you say, that there are people who are alert and careful enough to stay safe most of the time on them. Probably not most of us, however, especially given all the distracted drivers now on the road.
My brother-in-law just bought a Honda motorcycle to use on his commute. For him it’s not so much the mileage as the ability to use the HOV lanes. Besides, he likes his toys. He gets to play on the way to and from work and gets there happier and less stressed than he would be otherwise.
I’m still nervous about the idea of my sister riding with him though.
1997 Honda Pacific Coast. Had one for quite awhile. 800cc v-twin, integrated rear trunk, very quiet and excellent wind protection. Man, I want one bad, again.
@schempe: I think you just proved jpc0067’s point
Not at all. jpc0067 seemed to think that people dislike bike riders. I don’t. I gladly give them wide berth on the freeway so they can safely split the lane. But the fact that I don’t mind them doesn’t in any way mean that I want to ride myself in the commute traffic (recreational ride is something different altogether).
@Landcrusher: If you ever owned a motorcycle, you would know about the attitudes you catch from people who think you are a crazy mad man for riding.
I rode when I was much, much younger (seems like previous incarnation ;)). Yes, you do find jerks everywhere. It’s an unfortunate fact of life.
I was curious about your item number 6. How does a motorcycle have worse impact than a car?
More polluting per gallon of fuel (as far as I know), maintenance items are more frequent – tires changed much more frequently than cars. Also, I don’t believe they last nearly as long as cars all in all, therefore add to the production energy usage costs.
@240d: I’d be curious as to how many readers of TTAC have traded in one car for a smaller, more economical car. The last I heard, everyone was towing boats to Moab.
I don’t even know where Moab is, but where I work (Silicon Valley) a vast majority of people commute in small cars.
I have a 49.9 cc scooter for this very reason. 85-90mpg. And in Missouri its considered a motorized bicycle so I dont have to liscense or insure it.
Of course its only averages about 30 mph, but there are lots of performance upgrades, and its easily rebuildable.
With my ’83 Honda VT500 Ascot, I get 55 mpg riding hard, 65 mpg babying. It’s a toy, but with my wife’s 50cc scooter that gets 100 mpg (and goes 40 mph), we save an awful lot of gas commuting three seasons in Denver, and that’s with two Civics as our cars (EX and Si). The motorcycle was $1600, the scooter $1700 new. That’s pretty cheap long-term fun, IMO.
Eeveryone is looking at the wrong two-seaters. Scooters are a commuters best friend. Much better fuel milage than motorcycles, more comfortable, much less maintaining costs (smaller tires, simpilar drivetrains)
Huge range of choices, 49cc to 650cc as far as I know.
Jolo’s insightful comments bear repeating. Regardless of how unrealistic, the following would solve everything:
You want to make motorcycles more acceptable in this country? Mandate that those who get their driver’s license HAVE to only ride a motorcycle for the first two years before they are allowed to drive a car. People will be more alert to bikes once they are in a car because the average MC rider pays better attention to their surroundings than those in a car who have never ridden on a bike.
Sure, there will be lots of injuries and deaths (the Darwin factor) the first decade or so, but in the grand scheme of things, there would be better car drivers on the road once they have to learn how to properly drive.
@Mullholland: Jolo’s insightful comments bear repeating. Regardless of how unrealistic, the following would solve everything:
You want to make motorcycles more acceptable in this country? Mandate that those who get their driver’s license HAVE to only ride a motorcycle for the first two years before they are allowed to drive a car.
Yeah, right. I don’t even know where to begin (or bother to).
Sure, there will be lots of injuries and deaths (the Darwin factor) the first decade or so, but in the grand scheme of things, there would be better car drivers on the road once they have to learn how to properly drive.
Yeah, that’s brilliant. Let’s kill a bunch of people, that will make better drivers out of them.
Like I said, where do you even begin to comment seriously on this?
@hwyhobo
Apologies for trying to be a wise guy.
One of the previous Question Of The Day’s asked if there were any good reasons to own an SUV. Seemed like there were a bunch of people who towed boats and a good handful of folks that drove around Moab (Utah desert, hiking, home of much mountain biking). Here I was thinking all these big old trucks were write offs.
I have a bike (Ducati 620 Multistrada), and no car (but the wife does) and while I can’t argue that it efficiently replaces a small commuter car, as I read this thread I thought of all the SUV owners from the other board and then wondered if any downsizing, if not to bikes then to smaller cars, is happening at all amongst the readership. Or, is gas still simply the cheapest part of owning a vehicle and if so, how much does gas have to cost before it isn’t the cheapest part of driving?
Obviously I’m not good at Total Cost Of Ownership math.
@240d, I think gas is a serious part of cost of ownership if you have to commute regularly. Size of the car is also a negative if you live in a place like Silicon Valley where parking may be at a premium. Handling of a large SUV is also a minus for me.
Mind you, I am not religious about it. If someone has a good reason for owning one vehicle or other, fine with me. I just cannot justify driving one of those large SUVs (even though I could afford it) simply because I have very little need for it that couldn’t be satisfied using cheaper means, and I consider it counterproductive to one’s future financial well-being (and that of the society around him) to spend money frivolously.
I guess that might tell you what I think of government’s spending habits. :|
Re: #1. Have you tried wearing that leather batman outfit over a suit?
I guess that I come by it naturally because I used to watch my father, another iron-butt, zip up a one-piece snow suit over a three piece suit-and-tie. He rode 12 months over a 100 mile commute.
Also, for those that say the gas savings isn’t worth, I think that you are missing a big part of the equation. My other car is a beater XJ6 that AVERAGES 14mpg and the catalytic converters are shot. A 45mpg (super)bike is a HUGE improvement. That doesn’t even include the fuel sipping scooters, 250cc’s, etc. The 2008 bikes now need catalytic converters, too (thanks, greenies). A bike makes a whole lotta sense when compared with other $3500 options for savings, fun and environmentalism.
I think alot of people here have REALLY never spent any time in a third world country or really calculated the cost of a cheap (small, not 1000cc) bike.
Take a used, few year old 250 and you are talking 2-3k for something in GREAT shape.
My car (never having a moving violation in 16 years) costs $120/month in insurance. My wifes car about $65/month (neon beater). My 600cc sportbike with FULL coverage is sub $400 per YEAR. Not to mention my bike uses 1/3 the gas.
My wifes tires are at least $50 ea. + install/mounting/balancing. My bike is probably the same cost for 2. My car (STi) stock tires are $200 EA on sale. You go through tires faster (I don’t, really…) but you are only replacing 2 at a time. I can tell you not even getting close to the cost of fuel, a gixxer-600 is signifcantly cheaper to maintain than my STi.
In MANY countries that are not first world, motorcycles & scooters are the _ONLY_ way to get around economically outside of public buses which may or may not be reliable/safe/go where you want to go.
My cousin spent 2 years in Africa and having a dual sport was a lifesaver. I have been in Brazil several times (6? 7 ? I lost track) and there are as many motorcycles in the small cities I go as cars, BECAUSE they are cheaper to maintain, fix, and use so much less gas ($5.50-$6/gallon when I was there this year in march.)
The “bikes are only good for single people without children and are more expensive than cars” is a very typical american attitude.
I saw several kids on the back of different 125cc’s as passengers as young as 7 or 8 years old. I saw many husband/wife bf/gf sharing 125cc’s as commuter bikes with no problems.
Yep bikes are more dangerous than cars, and are very hard to drive in places with snow/cold, however 50 years or less from now, I predict we will be in a situation where motorcycles are looked at really no more differently than cars.
I just got a 49cc Yamaha Zuma scooter two weeks ago. And yes its great getting over 70mpg for my around town chores.I wouldn’t live W/O the car, but its not that hard to limit yourself to streets 45 mph or less in the urban-ish area I live. Also it didn’t require a special license and the ins could be had for as little as 75$ a year.
I drive a Honda Insight and average 70 mpg. A bike has no advantage over that fuel economy.
A bike would still be tempting due to its ability to avoid sitting in line in commuter traffic, but the safety issues far outweigh that. As others have noted, bike riders are much at risk from the idiocy of other drivers.
But also bike riders are the worst drivers on the road by my observation. They often pilot their bikes with no apparrent regard to their own safety. Travelling much faster than surrounding traffic, weaving and riding between the lanes to overtake lines of moving traffic are behaviour that I often see. I am more suprised by bike riders obeying the road rules than I am by those not doing so.
ghillie: in any jurisdiction in North America, except California, you need to break the law to get any kind of advantage in traffic (unless there is an HOV lane). Here, for example, it is nearly a $300 fine for lane splitting or riding on the shoulder. Big price to pay.
I don’t mind the dieing part. It’s the getting laid up in a hospital part which is more likely(I don’t like hospitals). Getting seriously and or permanently injured, disfigured, dismembered, or paralyzed. So easy to do. Go get a big dog liter bike or bigger and hot rod it around.
Bikes might full well be a lot of fun. A dangerous way to have fun though.
A crash at 170 and survived…. I don’t think I’d be so lucky though: http://youtube.com/watch?v=vT5ZzdO_ER0
Watch enough of those videos and you’ll tend to shy away from two wheel action.
Back in 2001 I bought a three year old Honda Helix for $1000. Nine months and $200 later in repairs I sold it for $2800. It was a very durable scooter that could get me around the 70’s (70 mpg, 70 mph). It also had one of the most awkward sitting positions I’ve experienced in any vehicle, and the front suspension was virtually non-existent. Overall a very durable but highly overrated Honda.
Second and third ones were Honda Elite’s. One 80cc’s and one 50cc’s. The first was boring to ride, had a terrible exhaust note, but was tough as nails. The second was just like the first except it was absolutely gutless. In both cases I could have modified them to get by in most of the winding one lane roads around town. But these scooters had all the personality of a weed whacker so… why bother.
A Vespa ET4 was bought with a salvage title, 3 miles on the odometer, and a complementary tow dolly that could fit two scooters. It literally was hit when driven out of a Vespa dealership while on that dolly. The ‘all too brief’ owners spend nearly $6000 altogether, and I got everything for $2300. The Vespa was fun to drive, but the price for parts would have made anyone looking for long-term ownership role their eyes. The filters alone were five times the cost of nearly any motorcycle and the chrome took in rust within a year. Sold it for a good profit, don’t regret it.
Now I have a 2001 Yamaha XC125 with 1100 miles that was bought in 2005, a few months before the Katrina deal, for $1000. A full faced helmet that passed dual safety specs came with it, and it’s averaged about 90 mpg for me. It can go up to 55 mph, but is far happier at 45 mph. I only drive it down one lane roads which are very common in my neck of the woods.
As for motorcycle safety? Don’t even get me started. Upon the founding of a group of scooter riders that were deemed ‘Scooterholics’, our group had to deal with several sub-humanoids who thought that scooters should be used for stunts and commuting one’s self without insurance. One guy punctured his lung and broke numerous bones, one shattered his hand, and another brought all the newbies out to a stunt course to encourage Darwin’s law of averages.
These elements were gleefully purged from the ‘Scooterholics’ in a rather nasty exchange of emails, and we ended up with a far older, and far wiser group of people. Even so, I rue the day when the average American gets on a scooter and goes down the road. When that day comes, it will make the Chinese record of safety enviable.
I don’t know guys. Everything is dangerous. I personally know about 5x as many people killed in car/car accidents than motorcycle accidents. YMMV.
The worst for road rules are BICYCLISTS who ride in the street. I have almost hit several because they figure the red lights do not apply to them and they don’t even break stride when coming to an intersection (this was in my car, mind you. Lucky at least one of us was paying attention). What infuriates me further is bicyclists who ride around with their headphones on.
ghille> The problem with the insight is severalfold: 1) No longer produced. How is procuring parts? 2) initial cost (15k new ? I don’t know, you tell me). 3) what do you do when your batteries no longer function years down the road? 4) How do you keep cars running up your butt on the onramp? (my same conern with the 250cc I’m pondering).
Motorcycles avoid all of these and can get the same or better (or worse if you go for something over 250cc) with a much better bang-to-buck ratio.
I’ve been riding bikes for over thirty years, both street and dirt. The town I live in is a lot like Mayberry and I enjoy riding the street bike, an ’83 Honda Ascot VT500 bought new, (high five ejacobs) around here, but I don’t take it to Mount Pilot. Heavy traffic multiplies the number of distracted car and truck driving idiots you have to defend youself against. The key to surviving the street is to assume no one can see you & everyone is going to pull out in front of you. I did just buy an street legal dirt bike, ’08 Honda CRF240L, but not for the mileage. I bought it for the fun of riding dirt roads and trails, and the convienance of being able to ride to the trails on the street legally.
For anyone contemplating the purchase of a first motorcycle I highly recommend a rider safety course to help insure your survival. I’ve never ridden bikes for fuel mileage, just for fun and the “ultimate convertible” sensation. When it comes to going any great distance, I prefer the XK-8 with the top down, even if it only drinks premimum and a lot of it.
As a “casual” rider of 30+ years, I can say that if you choose two wheels as a form of “economical” transport, you’re likely riding a machine that’s too slow and vulnerable to ride in many situations, and you’re relying on the competency of others to make your ride safer.
I’m now riding a 750cc Kawasaki that goes like Hell, stops like the Devil, and takes corners well enough to outrun any vehicle that’s not actively trying to catch me.
It’s a ‘war” out there, with crazy SUV drivers, pissed-off office types, etc. so you need the proper “weapon” to play; anything less, and you’re going to end up a red spot on the asphalt.
That said (ranted?), in more sedate surroundings, a motorcycle or scooter can be an economic plus, but on Pennsylvania roads, you need lots of power and very sticky tires to have any advantage over the “cagers”. Thus, 40 or so MPG, 3k out of a set of $300 tires, a new $200 helmet every 2 years, and (for me) $250 full coverage insurance. The bike was $6900 OTD in 2006.
I still own my Yamaha DT100 Enduro two-stroke, one of the only toys I’ve retained from my misspent youth. That little enduro will out accelerate most cars from 0 to 40. Unfortunately, its practical top speed is only about 50-55mph, so it can’t be used on a highway. Gas mileage is about 80mpg. I could legally use it on the street, since it is a dual purpose bike with lights, horn, etc. I don’t think I would actually try it, it’s not a question of if some dullard in an Escalade will run me over, but when.
I’m also a bicycle enthusiast. Mileage wise, it would be practical for me to commute to work on all but the coldest/snowiest days. Although the commute isn’t very far, I would have to ride a large part of it on major arterial roads where the traffic is bumper-to-bumper and moving at 50mph. There are a number of abandoned rail lines around here that could easily be converted into fantastic bike trails, but that ain’t gonna happen. Bicycle riders don’t pay gas taxes, or any road taxes for that matter.
I ride a brand new honda rebel that $3100 and insure for $400 a year. I get 65 mpg and i ride anytime its above 30 F.. unless its raining.. then it has to be 50 F. Basicaly most of you are just wimps. Death? it happens.. i’ve already totaled a bike by killing a deer.
I saw an EV Scooter in Autoweek – looked pretty incredible until I saw the price tag.
hwyhobo,
It’s not the pollutants per gallon that matters, it’s the pollutants per mile. I doubt very seriously that any motorcycles are less green than anything else. Maybe some of the ones people dork with to make funny sounds or to race with.
I still own my Yamaha DT100 Enduro two-stroke, one of the only toys I’ve retained from my misspent youth.
I’ve never seen an enduro bike that is street legal; they don’t have blinkers and such (they do have a headlight and taillight). They are cross-country racers.
Now a dual-purpose bike (Honda XL series) would be my choice for daily riding IF I were going to do that.
Landcrusher, smell the exhaust of nearly any motorcycle and you’ll know your statement is wrong. No catalytic converters plus carburators or rudimentary fuel injection make for very dirty emissions. Think cars from the 70’s, only with the displacement scaled down. Crankcase and gas tank venting are often also just tubes that vent into the atmosphere. After every time I’d ride, my clothes and hair smelled of gasoline, and it’s not because the bike leaked.
Race exhausts don’t increase emissions – only sound pollution. And the guys removing the cats on the newest bikes that come equipped with them are just jerks. When your sport bike has 130-180+ hp and weighs under 500 lbs, how can you seriously tell me you can justify polluting MUCH more to gain a (theoretical) couple of horsepower?
@TexasAg03
I’ve never seen an enduro bike that is street legal; they don’t have blinkers and such (they do have a headlight and taillight). They are cross-country racers.
That’s because you’re probably not old enough to remember the 70’s. Yes, my enduro has a speedometer, blinkers, horn etc. It’s not legal for highways, (that’s because of the small displacement) it is legal on secondary roads.
Have a look:
http://thebrighams.com/1975%20Yamaha%20DT100.JPG
Yes, my enduro has a speedometer, blinkers, horn etc.
Maybe things have changed since the late 70s/early 80s, but in that time, when I was reading about motorcycles, a true enduro bike had no more than a headlight and a taillight and was NOT street legal at all. They were made for cross-country races (by cross-country I mean through the woods via trails). They could not have tires that were street legal because they needed the traction.
Bikes that were street legal but looked like dirt bikes were called “dual-purpose” or “dual-sport” bikes. At least that’s the way they were referred to by the magazines of the day.
The current XR650L is a dual-purpose bike and the XR650R is an enduro bike (or at least is similar to what an enduro is-I don’t know what Honda calls it officially).
That’s what I have seen/read over the years. Just another $.02…
@TexasAG03
Maybe things have changed since the late 70s/early 80s, but in that time, when I was reading about motorcycles, a true enduro bike had no more than a headlight and a taillight and was NOT street legal at all.
Have a look at this picture:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze3j6z2/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/62_1.jpg
Can you see what it says on the oil tank? It says, “Enduro”. Yamaha use to build these single cylinder 2 strokes in displacement ranging from 80cc all the way up to 500cc.
Can you see what it says on the oil tank? It says, “Enduro”. Yamaha use to build these single cylinder 2 strokes in displacement ranging from 80cc all the way up to 500cc.
Yamaha can call it whatever they want, but that doesn’t make it so. Automakers refer to vehicles by types that don’t fit all the time. Go to GM.com and search for cars by type. Under “sport/convertible” they list the Grand Prix. I think most would agree that the Grand Prix is far from a sports car.
Marketing hype doesn’t change what something is. Enduro racing is racing through rough terrain and/or forest areas with bikes built for the purpose. You don’t need blinkers for that, and true enduro bikes don’t have them.