VW recently released details of its forthcoming North American-market diesel engine, known as Blue TDI, at the Viennese Auto Symposium. The common-rail turbodiesel boasts the latest and greatest in clean-diesel technologies, like a particulate filter and a maintenance-free NOX catalytic converter. Of particular note: the first-ever application of both high- and low-pressure exhaust gas recirculation systems on a diesel engine. VW says all the new-fangled diesel wizardry delivers a 90 percent reduction in acid rain-causing NOX emissions while delivering 140 hp and 320 nm of torque. Oh yeah, and meeting Euro 5 as well as U.S. 50-state, Bin 5 tier 2 emissions standards. Look for the Blue TDI as an option on US Jettas starting this summer.
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Could we have this in an A3 with S-line and stick shift please? Oh, and can you we have the top two gears a little taller (more like the A4 gearing)?
While the Bluemotion (as it is called in Europe) technology is good, I don’t expect it to supplant hybrid powertrains.
For start, Bluemotion diesel technology isn’t as efficient as a hybrid powertrain (for reasons which I cannot be bothered to write, but if anyone takes great offence at my post, I’ll write them down) and also, any mpg gain (which the figures are slightly dubious, I’ve yet to hear a report of anyone achieving the figures that VW say the technology can do) is offsetted by the fact that diesel is more expensive than petrol (and diesel powertrains cost more to produce than petrol ones).
But if I were a customer, who didn’t like hybrids (for whatever reason), then a Bluemotion diesel is a great alternative. I’m not saying it’s rubbish, but I think hybrids are still the way forward.
P.S BMW do some GREAT diesels. Far better than VW.
Diesel here is running 20% higher than regular. Diesels that meet the Bin5 tier 2 standard have, on average, only a 25% efficiency advantage over a conventional gas engine. And how much is the diesel engine going to cost above the gas engine? $2k? Doesn’t look like a very attractive proposition, economics wise.
My 2005 Prius obtained over 56.5 MPG over an 800 mile vacation journey in the UP of Michigan, in April 2007. Some 70 mph driving, some town driving, but mostly 45 and 55 mph roads, not all perfectly flat and straight, either.
My 2008 Prius is sitting down in the work parking lot, with the computer showing over 50mpg – from our commuting, right now.
As Katie and Paul mention, the diesel advantages are pretty well “gone” at least in a country where diesel fuel is running 70 cents per gallon more than gasoline. As mentioned, “it just doesn’t add up” to savings.
Plus I don’t have to search for fuel, fumble with little mittens to try to keep the diesel stench from my hands, or walk around with people looking at me with wrinkled noses because I stood in spilled diesel fuel whilst filling up.
Plus, with a proper, real hybrid (not some joke GM thing with a starter/generator) you can capture 30% of your kinetic energy when slowing or stopping, compared to ZERO on “conventional” gasoline, diesel or CNG cars.
Its true, with the stump pulling torque and sporty driving dynamics offered by economical hybrids there really is no place for diesels in North America…
I second what menno says.
I get my best Prius mpg on highways. Living in San Francisco, I get my worst mpg in the city (all those damn hills ruin every car’s mpg).
But on a trip from to Vegas (around 70mph) I averaged 50 mpg.
On a trip from to Santa Cruz (PCH is slower, around 50mph), I got 59 mpg.
When I lived in (flat) Los Angeles, city mpg was always 45-50 mpg, slightly less than highway mpg.
Where would the diesel savings be here?
Could we have this in an A3 with S-line and stick shift please? Oh, and can you we have the top two gears a little taller (more like the A4 gearing)?
Forget that. I want my A3 with Gremlin-esque styling, a buttload of battery packs for ballast, electric motors to compensate for the puny engine and a CVT for driving excitement.
While the pure economics TODAY don’t support diesel ownership very strongly for most people, my case is that in the long-run, diesels are a great economic choice.
The supply chain is still reeling from heating oil demand shocks and the transition to ULSD. Once that settles down, I think you’ll see disel prices back in line with gasoline (or maybe lower, which is the historical average relation).
In addition, diesels at least have the potential to use other fuels, namely WVO-derive biodiesel…although I don’t know how well it will do in the new, high-pressure CRD engines. This is yet to be seen. If it proves viable, then you have a great hedge against future price shocks, as well as a way to help reduce oil dependence.
Further, there’s less complexity than with hybrids (by far). I feel I can stand a chance of understanding a diesel and DIY repairs far more than I could a hybrid.
Finally, the tuning options are insane :D :D :D
Dealerships are supposed to be receiving at least one demo model in May, with customer deliveries by August. I’m going to try to get in and see it for myself. Even if diesel fuel stays expensive for a while, I might still opt to enjoy the V6-like performance with Hybrid-like economy. Most of my driving is under 50mph, so I don’t really care about winding gears up to redline on a day-to-day basis.
For diesel to have a prayer in the US the fuel itself has to be a bit cheaper than gasoline, and I don’t see that happening.
People are willing to pay a hybrid powertrain premium on Toyotas, but only willing to pay for diesel powertrains on big trucks.
Where would the diesel savings be here?
Two words: Alternative fuels.
Not to mention alternative fuels that are far more eco-friendly than those for gasoline engines. Alternative fuels that require no modification to the car. Alternative fuels that can be made/recycled from waste products and not cause food shortages or food price spikes. Alternative fuels with fewer harmful emissions than those generated by burning petroleum products.
Not to mention significantly longer service life. Or no need for heavy, hazardous and potentially harmful battery strings.
Diesel fuel has not always been more expensive than gasoline, in fact for most of history it has been significantly less – I recall paying 50¢-65¢ a gallon when Gasoline ranged from $1.00- $1.25 in the early 80s. I’ve been making my own fuel at a cost of between 80¢ and $1.35 a gallon for the past few years. The current spike in Diesel pump prices is worthy of some serious Economic inquiry, because it does not seem to mirror any traditional historic economic trends. Though Ash78 may be right attributing it to a confluence of seasonal heating oil demand and ULSD. It will be interesting to watch the price trends over the next few months and see.
The market needs to, and should have alternatives. We don’t all want to drive Priuses (or SUVs for that matter eh Detroit??) I have nothing against hybrids, the more the merrier. I just prefer the OPTION of having a fuel source I can DIY, and save a boatload of money over buying at the pump. Yes, I realize that few people have the patience, space, time, etc to muck around with waste veggie oil in their spare time, but dammit I like cars, and I stew in jealously with the stunning variety of options afforded the consumers of just about every other civilized country on this planet. Here we get to choose between lumbering Detroit gas guzzlers, Rental-fleet quality garbage, or exactly ONE hyper-efficient Japanese shoe-shaped pretentious-mobile. I want choices! I want an Alfa-Romeo Spider with a JTDM engine, or an Audi TT TDI… or SOMETHING other than either a Prius or a goddamn Jetta!
Bbaahhhhhh!!!! (thunk!)
–chuck
http://chuck.goolsbee.org
Right on, Chuck.
It’s not THE solution, but in combination with hybrids and small gassers, diesel ensures the consumer gets plenty of choice AND effectiveness.
Somebody help me.
I seem to have failed math in elementary school.
My car gets 30 MPG HWY now.
With a 15 gallon tank and a cost of 54.00 (3.60 today) I can go 450 miles.
My diesel gets 48 MPG HWY.
With a 15 gallon tank and a cost of 63.60 (4.25 my cost today) I can go 720 miles.
Soooooo….For approximately 9.00 more I can drive over 270 miles MORE!!!!????
The VW diesel is priced at 23K…nearly as low as the turbo gas.
AND…when your hybrid is long in the tooth at 100K miles and needing expensive repairs, my diesel is JUST breaking in.
Help me, please, before I shoot another stupid
hybrid owner.
ppellico: I’m not a “stupid hybrid owner”, but I will try to help you. Your comparison is apples to oranges. What is your 30mpg car, and how is it driven? The simple reality is this, which the manufacturers will confirm: on an apples to apples comparison, a diesel engine is about 30% more efficient. The process to clean up them up for US consumption cut about 5% off of that 30%. That leaves 25% efficiency improvement. Driving styles, aerodynamics, etc. make a big difference.
It’s been shown over and over that the Prius and (prior) VW TDI get similar mileage (42-44) in typical driving. The problem for the diesel? The new ones coming may not be as efficient. The next gen3 Prius will be about 20% more efficient (50+mpg). And diesel costs more. Does that help?
The last pricing I read was that is was CAD$2,000 over the BASE 2.5L engine. So it should be cheaper than the 2.0t in most cases. This is just preliminary stuff from a leaked Canadian pricing sheet, though.
Historical experience means the US can expect a $1,500 premium over the Rabbit and Jetta, plus whatever mandatory options packages and dealer markup they see fit to add…
PN:
the new tdi is being touted as having better fuel efficiency than the old 1.9L TDI (last seen in 2006)
i will agree with you that there is a lot more growth for efficiency improvements with hybrid powertrains (such as plug-in, not to mention tuning optimizations…)..
But, there are also improvements that could be made with a small diesel that currently aren’t seen in north america: such as low rolling resistance tires, aerodynamics like a prius, etc…
the ceiling for a VW TDI is probably ~ 75 mpg, while a plug in hybrid has a ceiling for 100+ mpg…
plus, as mentioned above, the tdi has a longer lifetime without major repairs / battery pack replacements…
For right now, it’s good to see the TDI finally arrive! AND, right now, i would say it’s as good, if not better than the Gen 2 prius and civic hybrids… (plus it’s a more solid car)
Additionally for PN:
i also don’t agree with your apples to oranges…
apples to apples
look back to 2000 (before the VW tdi got it’s HP boost)
VW golf TDI got 42/49 mpg city/highway
VW golf 2.0L got 24/31 mpg
VW golf 1.8T got 24/31 mpg
i see more than a 30% improvement in these numbers…
PN : The process to clean up them up for US consumption cut about 5% off of that 30%. That leaves 25% efficiency improvement. Driving styles, aerodynamics, etc. make a big difference.
The carbon advantage of diesels is even smaller, because a gallon of diesel emits more carbon dioxide than a gallon of petrol.
I’d still rather drive straight up ICE than a hybrid.
Thanks for your help everyone in explaining to PN that he is wrong with the percentages.
It might not be not apples to apples, or rather MPG tp MPG.
And we must be honest here…VW has given the MPG and it is over 50.
I am the one who errored on the low side.
In reality, diesel is even a better bargain.
And ALL the hybrid stats lean heavily on the CITY miles.
If they do not, hybrid tech is not a big deal.
And let’s be more honest.
The better engines and cars today with new turbos all require premium fuel.
And where does that put the price per gallon.
Ford’s new turbos might be different…but all others take premium.
Diesels are nothing more than the way of the future.Why else are over 50 percent of all Euro cars diesels?
Please…this is to easy.
PP
@Paul Niedermeyer: Diesel is not only about efficiency. It provides good efficiency AND allows people to own a car of their choice.
Prius is a decent car. I owned one for a couple of years, but no more. It is a typical low end Toyota appliance. This was my first and hopefully the last Toyota I ever owned. I’d rather have diesel BMW, thank you.
Oh, and I have never seen anything better than 43 mpg from Prius when driven normally, i.e. when not delaying everyone behind you while trying to avoid starting ICE or rolling as long as possible trying to recharge the battery.
How about a a Blue TDI Hybrid powertrain?
Diesal people would be happy, hybid people would be happy. VW and Toyota could team up and produce a 60mpg car easy.
The VW diesel is priced at 23K…nearly as low as the turbo gas.
There are plenty of of holes in your argument.
A diesel VW offers nearly the same 0-60 as non-turbo gas. Real world prices diesel VWs had 20% premium over non-turbo gas counterparts when it was last sold in US.
AND…when your hybrid is long in the tooth at 100K miles and needing expensive repairs, my diesel is JUST breaking in.
ROTFLMAO, Prius is one of most reliable vehciles sold in in US, VW near bottom, even Koreans are far better. 200kmile prius taxis are now common. One unscheduled repair a VW ealership is all it will take to wipe out years worth of percieved “savings” from diesel.
You could at minimum justify buying previous generations of Jetta and Passat for their styling.
Current generation VWs are butt-ugly Corolla and Buick clones respectively.
I’d rather they put in a 240hp one into the boxster.
This like an argument with my wife…tristed little tid-bits and missing the big point.
I can only go by the prices as disclosed by the mftr.
VW wants their TDI to be a sales success and so priced. It is what it is.
Next, if you continue to express the longevity of a Prius verses that of a diesel…I simply cannot continue. Is this really a possible belief held by you?? No, it can’t be.
AND, if you really want to compare the looks of a VW…or ANY car…against that of the Prius, again I cannot continue and wish you luck in your other life’s decisions.
PP
PP, no need to be rude. I’ve had a Prius and a Jetta TDI. The Prius has a very clean and futuristic silhouette. The Jetta has a mostly unpretentious European design. Both of them have their appeal.
The powertrains of both vehicles tend to be very robust. VW’s strengths are their engines, seats, and manual transmissions. Toyota’s have nice and quiet interiors, top notch durability, and more usable space in the case of the Prius.
The TDI’s tend to be valued by those looking for a ‘personal’ and ‘enthusiast’ car. The Prius has become a more viable candidate as a family car. Both should last well over 200k without any serious issues given a good owner and a reputable independent mechanic.
The TDI will have more issues, on average. It will also be more fun to driving for the folks who want a bit of sport in their car. The Prius is a better consideration for those looking for a smoother ride, a more versatile space, and fewer trips to the shop.
I like them both, nearly kept them both, but for now I’ve chosen a Honda Fit and a classic W116 Mercedes for my driving. Can’t say I regret the decisions, or the profit margins associated with those decisions. The Prius netted over 2k in profit. The VW was nearly 4k thanks to a trade-in.
The never-ending argument over diesel economics always seems to focus on front-end costs and running expenses. That ignores the back-end benefits that come when you sell the car someday. Last month I was delighted to pay $8500 for a five-year old New Beetle TDI with 100,000 miles on the clock. I traveled across two state lines to pick it up, because I’d seen similar cars going for $2k more in my vicinity.
I don’t know whether it’s true yet, but diesel cars have a reputation for longevity and low maintenance. Used car buyers will pay a premium for that, offsetting the premium paid by the original purchaser. So what’s the reputation of high-mileage hybrids? I don’t know myself, but my first thought is of complexity and high maintenance.
I’m enjoying the difference between 25 mpg and 40 mpg with my TDI. And I enjoy the fact that it’s still a simple, basic car, with one engine and five gears I can shift for myself, thank you. I like the fuel savings, but even more I like the driving experience. The engine is quiet at speed, relaxed with large reserves of power. I’m not squeamish about diesel fuel, which is found at more than half the gas stations I pass (“and I pass a lot of ’em,” ka-ching!)
That said, I’m not offended by someone else’s choice of a Prius, either. It’s just not my style.
FWIW
My Fiat Palio gets in “enthusiastic city driving” 6km/l on ethanol, 8.5km gas (21.6m/g ethanol 30.6m/g gas), “normal city” 7,3 on ethanol, 9,8km/l on gas (26,3m/g ethanoil; 35,3 gas). In highway: ethanol 11km/l (39.6 miles/gallon); gasoline 15.5 km/l (54 m/g).
No need for hybrids, or diesels.
Full disclosure: hate diesels, stink: yes, noise: yes, vibrations: yes. They just mark all the wrong boxes. And its a by product of gas FGS!
And I live in a state that is like San Francisco ALL the time. City or highway driving. An ethusiast’s dream!! (if he can pay the fuel bills)
It’s a niche, granted, but there is pent up demand for a highly efficient wagon, be it hybrid or diesel or fart powered. The Prius hatch is too small and shallow for some schleppers, and SUVs, even smallish ones (Escape) still drive truckish. OK, the pent up demand was me last fall, and I couldn’t wait for the BlueTDI whatever Jetta, but I’m glad it’s a coming.
Steven, sorry if I sounded rude.
Truly.
I love all car guys/gals.
And I suspect you are as sick a car nut as the rest of us!
Its just that when I discuss the best of cars, I don’t like it when the subject turns so subjective.
I understand most have different taste than I…and thank God for that!
But reliability and quality must be different.
I understand that so many like the Prius and other hybrids.
But to ignor the extra cost to purchase one and ignor the same of the other is wrong.
To bring up the looks is recking the discussion.
Nobody really would suggest a hybrid has longer life expectancy than a diesel!
In the frozen Alaskan winters, they actually keep diesels running all the time.
You could never do such with hybrids.
But hybrids are great city solutions.
Not for heavy torque or highway or longevity.
And the torque from diesels.! Nothing offers as close.
I understand your love of Toyotas…but I require so much more from a car than seats and depedability.
I require fun.
I require longevity.
I require beauty….yes, I even stand in the garage at night and stare at cars.
I guess this is why most of my cars are Mazdas!
Thanks for the banter all.
PP
Marc:
Where would the diesel savings be here?
How about the fact that the Jetta Sportwagen will haul MUCH more stuff than some snobby Prius…while getting 50-60 MPG?
Believe it or not, I agree. The 1998 Jetta TDI I had was the closest thing I’ve had recently to a perfect vehicle for my daily needs and desires.
The sound system was upgraded and extremely well distributed (8 speakers, 350 watts). The torque was nearly perfect for my daily driving. Yhe 5-speed was seamless, and the car simply had all the combinations I like for a daily driver. Great handling, 50+ MPG if I feather it, and a perfect size for the winding one lane roads I usually take in my travels. Throw in the potentiality for biodiesel and tons of available parts, and you pretty much have one of the best automotive possibilities of this era.
I had a little over 3k in it, and I sold it for $7k. I don’t regret it. But if I were still in the market for a keeper car it would have definitely been a consideration. I even liked it more than the 2002 Mercedes S500 that’s on my driveway right now.
As for Toyota’s current battery, they warranty it for eight years and have stated that it should last much longer than that since 2003. Other than one battery in Alaska that kicked the bucket at -56 degrees, there hasn’t been a single battery failure recorded. However if it will need replacement past the 8 year period, Toyota has stated that the cost of it will be projected to be no more than $1000 by 2012. If you decide to get a slightly used one it’s only showing around $400 to $500 according to car-part.com. In fact there’s one now that only has 3k miles on it for $500.
I like the efficacy of both models and, dang it! I wish both manufacturers would make their vehicles light and compact instead of heavier and more bulbous with each succeeding generation.
Oh well. Que sera sera!
Odd that no one has mentioned anything about the completely different driving experience with a diesel engine. With a TDI, it’s all about the torque. It’s always funny to me when I’m driving on an incline on a highway, and I’m able to blow past gas powered vehicles that are crawling up the incline. Diesels excel in the areas of torque and fuel economy, and it’s the reason that I’ll never buy another gasoline powered vehicle.
And for one of the first posters that said it’s hard to find diesel and it’s difficult not spill diesel, I have to wonder what’s wrong with you. Diesel is available at a lot of stations, and I never get diesel on my hands. Usually I just wrap some paper towels around the pump handle, and problem solved. Honestly, I’d rather get diesel on my hands than gas. I think the diesel smell goes away faster.