The Black Dog of has been growling at my door. I'm not sure if it's the constant site crashes. Or TrueDelta extraction (a misplaced cure). Or the page view counter getting stuck. Or the RSS feeder developing anorexic. Or the enormous discrepancy between where we are and where TTAC could be. Needs to be. OCD is a cruel taskmaster. As is my passionate belief in this website's mission. I know I should just kick back and cash my paycheck and not give a shit. But that's not my nature. I didn't start TTAC to make money. And I'm not going to give up on it for money, either. So I'm fighting for our right to party. All I ask is your patronage and patience. Come Hell or high water, I will not let you– or myself– down. Meanwhile, I want to thank Ford for lifting my spirits. I applaud Ford Motor Credit's decision to give its tornado-ravaged Iowa customers a couple of months grace from their car payments. I could say something cynical about this, but I won't. Sometimes, you've gotta count your blessings and let it be.
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RF,
Is there any chance you are under attack from external sources unhappy with your “candor”? I have been surprised by the frequency of disruptions.
Just an FYI, in the past Ford Motor Credit provided the same leniency for other disaster victims. That includes Hurricane Katrina victims, Hurricane Charlie victims, California Fire victims, Northwest flood and mudslide victims, etc.
Other motor credit companies have also done the same thing when natural disasters strike. Toyota Motor Credit and Chrysler Financial, and GMAC all allow buyers to defer payments when they get hit by unexpected events.
Try removing all the ads for a bit and see if it clears it up. I’ve seen odd ball ad banners and ad code act up before in the past.
thanks for posting something positive about our home industry!
This is always good news. Ford are very pro-active is situation like these. They are also very good in Lesbian and Gay rights.
Keep up the good work.
Ford’s so-called excellent record on gay rights is one of the reasons the company is hurting. Offended several religious-based family organizations. Ford was forced to scale back its marketing to gays and support of gay causes. I applaud the family groups for taking a stand, they really put Ford’s feet to the fire. But that doesn’t mean they’ll now buy Ford cars…..
It’s admirable that the author (finally) found something good to say about a domestic automaker. However, Ford’s actions here are not going to sell more Ford cars.
I would humbly hope that this site finds more good things to say about Ford PRODUCTS. Any other praise smacks of condescension.
I’m a big supporter of the American car industry. (Author clearly is not.) The Japanese make good cars, but they’re guilty of devious business practices. I’m convinced, for example, that the Prius was developed using government funds and then dumped on our shores at below cost, until it found its market. So why does this site constantly bash GM’s noble (and unsubsidized) efforts to develop its Volt??
As for the magnificently poetic “Black Dog” growling at author’s door…Just whack him on the snout with a rolled up newspaper.
limmin, I’ll try not to start a flame war.
I don’t think the way Ford dealt with gay rights for their employees made a significant difference. Anti-gay religious groups tend to be much louder than their numbers.
There are plenty of great things to say about Ford products, but none of those compliments concern Fords currently sold in the US. This is starting to change, as I look forward to seeing how the Flex is. The next-gen Focus and Taurus, as well as the new Fiesta, look promising. But this website is about the truth, not about finding nice things to say. Country of origin has no weight.
As for the Japanese using “devious business practices,” I don’t see how government funded research and selling cars below cost is really that bad. You can say it’s unfair, but even that’s in a gray area. American automakers get tons of special treatment from our government, too. And btw, GM is trying to get subsidies for the Volt.
Compare Prius funding to the number fudging at GM to remain the #1 automaker for 2007. Or the number fudging that led to an independent’s statement that GM’s financial records lack credibility. If the Prius was the product of an evil plan, Chrysler’s $2.99 Gas Guarantee is an outright scam. Toyota gets plenty of hate on here too, so there’s no reason to antagonize them.
Its sort of ironic that Ford chose to build the “Flex” and there other newer vehicles here in Canada, at Ford Oakville!
I would have thought that the pull would have been to the heartland of Michigan?
Anyway I note that the new small car entry will be manufactured in Mexico! In my opinion there is a non brainer for Ford, except the old greed factor is involved as Mexico has a very low wage rate and they
not on the same plane as is the USA and Canada.
Earlier I saw a request for info on your RSS feed. I can get it through the RSS Feeds in my IE7 browser on my work Vista computer, but on my home XP machine I’m using “RSS Bandit” and it hasn’t pulled for days.
Anti-gay religious groups tend to be much louder than their numbers.….
Ain’t that the truth, even if you remove the gay part…Remember the “Moral Majority” of the 80’s? A bunch of windbags that blew louder than Rush Limbaugh at a Fox News pep rally. Countered by the backlash of the “Moral Majority is Neither”.
As for the relaxation of payments in these situations, that’s great and that is part of being a good corporate citizen. No real cost either, since the still get their money, albeit a few months later. Sounds like a win across the board.
This is a practice done by most financial companies in these situations. Part of it stems from common decency and good business practice, and part is related to the fact that bloods and stones don’t readily mix.
As for this…
“Ford’s so-called excellent record on gay rights is one of the reasons the company is hurting. Offended several religious-based family organizations. Ford was forced to scale back its marketing to gays and support of gay causes. I applaud the family groups for taking a stand, they really put Ford’s feet to the fire. But that doesn’t mean they’ll now buy Ford cars…..”
Anyone who discriminates against gays or lesbians will never do business with me. Period. We’re not in the dark ages anymore, and I have zero tolerance for folks who seek to treat others like second class citizens.
Get over yourselves, and get a clue.
I applaud the family groups for taking a stand, they really put Ford’s feet to the fire.
Personally, I’m as straight as an interstate in the desert. But I can’t understand why anyone would actually wish to turn part of our population into second-class citizens.
In any case, these groups have had no real effect on Ford’s failures as a company. It’s about product, product and product, not necessarily in that order, and it would be doing well if it made products that people want.
I suspect that the Fusion will eventually pay dividends for them, but it will take several years to win back the confidence of American buyers. If the Fiesta proves to be a good vehicle, they should be on the road to recovery, whether or not homophobes choose to buy their cars.
What happened to the TTAC and TrueDelta connection? In June 2007, they were ready for take off – did it crash and burn?
RSS feed finally picked up again this morning showing 24 new posts…
It seems the spellcheck might be off too judging by the number of “glitches” in the past few posts.
Churchill too was plagued by the Black Dog. (In fact, that’s what he called it.) As was Lincoln. They are remembered for their integrity and what they labored to accomplish. You’re in good company.
One day while I lived in Georgia I saw a poster on a tree: a notice of a KKK rally. Wow, I thought, it’s real! I asked my supervisor (born and raised in Mississippi) about the Klan. He shook his head in embarrassment and disgust. “What are you going to do? The law prohibits them from hiding their faces. But they have first amendment rights.” Later, the paper reported on the rally. Only a handful of Kluxers showed up. (And most of them were probably on the FBI payroll, as was once the case with American commies.)
But the media loves nutballs and their raucous demonstrations. Coverage of protests and rallies typically exaggerates their size and significance, while downplaying the goofiness.
Ford should mind the store and stay out of the political correctness wars.
Count me among those who applaud Ford both for the grace for Iowa customers and for their enlightened attitude towards gays and lesbians.
We’re getting off-topic here. Author’s article had nothing to do with gays/lesbians and Ford.
Once again, I applaud the religious groups and family organizations for taking Ford to the woodshed . No one is required to accept the gay lifestyle, nor is he/she required to buy products from companies that promote that lifestyle. That’s not discrimination. That’s just personal morality. Live with it.
I have no plans to “get over” myself. I’m very happy with myself.
Ford wants its market share back. Better to appeal to traditional families than to gays (who represent, at most, 3 percent of the population). Simple economics.
But what can Ford do to get the author to compliment the company on its vehicles, and not its episodic generosity to tornado victims? The Focus is better than it’s ever been and it’s outselling pretty much everything. I see Fusions everywhere. The Stang is steady. The Flex is cool. Ford trucks are top-of-class. And the Fiesta will slaughter all comers.
Ford provided medical benefits to gay partners of Ford employees? If that is the case . . . good for them. I will look at the Ford Corporation in a fresh way. Now I don’t feel so bad owning a Volvo S40T5AWDM6, even though old Henry Ford was a friggin’ Nazi.
On the other hand, if I hear of any company that treats gay employees poorly, or refuses to recognize domestic partnerships or gay marriages performed in states or countries where that is legal; I will avoid that company at all costs. I’d be happy to learn if anyone can provide information.
Most countries subsidize their auto industry one way or another. Some examples: Canada provides health insurance, pensions, day care, higher education; India and China subsidize fuel; the United States provides tax breaks for enormous gas guzzling SUVs that destroy the ozone and force us to invade oil-producing countries to feed our habit.
Gays may compose only three percent of households, but the number or people who support equal rights for all people is far greater than the number of narrow-minded bigots who want to impose their hate-filled agenda on everyone else and tell us what to watch, what websites to visit, what to read, and now, what to drive.
limmin – I don’t think there is much interest to be gained by praising cars like the Fusion and Focus. Same goes for articles praising the Camry. When CR dropped the Camry from its automatic Recommended-List, this news was way more interesting than the same hold hack about how great the car performed in some long-term test.
Bad news taking importance over good news is rampant everywhere. No one is going to give the Big 3 respect for winning a few battles. You’ll know when Big 3 (or at that point the Big 2) have recovered because the press will stop writing bad news about the Big 3. The absence of bad news is the only good news you should ever expect. Until then, they’ll just find more problems to poke at. And the Big 3 are full of bone-headed moves.
So what if GM hey actually made a car that some customers wanted in the Lambda platform? People have more fun shooting it down for being too large or being brand-engineered. So what if Chrysler makes an interesting Jeep Wrangler 4-Door? It’s more entertaining to claim it as another example of a mismanaged brand catering to people who rarely ever go off roading.
Regarding your Focus example – the reason you don’t have a C1 based Focus in America is because Americans will not pay the premium to get the more premium product. So the UK gets a 5-pot turbo Focus ST on some snazzy platform and US writers pan the US Focus because it pales in comparison. If Ford sells a C1 based Focus in the US, you’ll read about how stupid Ford is and how their brand engineering butts heads against the likes of a Mazda3 and Volvo C30. But today the US Focus is panned because it’s a cheap econo-box … even though it’s selling well in the current market conditions.
That’s just personal morality.
Some of us would label it differently. Generally speaking, discrimination and morality don’t make good bedfellows.
Better to appeal to traditional families than to gays (who represent, at most, 3 percent of the population). Simple economics.
I suspect it is these economics that motivated Ford to make some public moves toward helping gays in the first place.
Let’s face it — one reason that the domestics are losing sales is because middle-class suburbanites and yuppies increasingly believe that these Big 2.8 products are designed for the lower echelons, and are not designed to serve cultured individuals of good taste like themselves. The “perception” issue is that these are unsophisticated products that may be liked by those who don’t know better, but that are not suitable to those of intelligence and refined tastes.
Groveling to the vocal bigoted fringe only reinforces the image that the Big 2.8 makes products for the uneducated and the red of neck. That’s a suicidal marketing statement when you consider the inroads being made by the competition among middle-class and affluent consumers. It’s hard to develop a halo when it has that kind of mud on it.
Carlos, old Henry Ford was not a Nazi, friggin’ or otherwise. He was viciously antisemitic, which delighted Hitler (as did Ford’s building a huge plant in Cologne). On that point Ford was much like Joseph Kennedy, JFK’s father.
Henry was also a pacifist, an isolationist, and possessor of many nutty ideas as well as being inconsistent or irrational in many ways. But he was not a National Socialist. And when Ford decided to join the war effort, the company’s products did a lot to whip the Third Reich.
Would Ford advertise in magazines pertaining to Bestiality with sexually perverse advertisements? How about in a magazine targeting Islamic terrorists? Or maybe the KKK?
So, why did they do apparently very sexually perverse ads in homosexual magazines? Why not all the “other” “special interest groups?”
Gardiner said it best. Stay out of the culture wars, Ford (and other companies) and simply sell the best wares you can and offer them up to the entire buying public.
And advertise in places where more than a tiny proportion of the public are likely to see ads.
Would Ford advertise in magazines pertaining to Bestiality with sexually perverse advertisements? How about in a magazine targeting Islamic terrorists? Or maybe the KKK?
I’m sorry, but those sorts of extreme comparisons make your position look exceedingly weak.
This link should be useful: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin’s_law
Funny how you can play many cards, yet hold one hand. Subaru, known now for openly courting the Gay/Lesbian/transgender buyer, once was quite “closeted” (sorry I couldn’t resist) with their ads, unless you were “in the know”. Cars shown with little blue equal signs (equal rights commission), plates that said Ptownie (Provencetown, a mecca for gay travelers), or Xenalver (Xena the warrior princess was very popular with lesbians). All this right in mainstream press, probably viewed by Bill O’Reilly between his bouts of harassing his female employees. No, I am not gay, just too many episodes of Queer as Folk on late night TV.
Would Ford advertise in magazines pertaining to Bestiality with sexually perverse advertisements? How about in a magazine targeting Islamic terrorists? Or maybe the KKK?
So, why did they do apparently very sexually perverse ads in homosexual magazines? Why not all the “other” “special interest groups?”
Fail.
To expand: Bestiality is horrible because animals are abused. Not necessarily because of “perversity”. Islamic terrorists are murderers. The KKK is for restricting the rights of blacks, Hispanics, Jews and most races and cultures that are not straight White Anglo-Saxon Protestants.
Gays don’t really hurt anybody, unless you tend to find them “icky” in which case I would recommend you just ignore them.
“Generally speaking, discrimination and morality don’t make good bedfellows.”
Actually, they do. My morality dictates that I dislike child molestors, for example. I therefore would discriminate against them, which is proper.
Interesting info about Subaru, golden2husky. I remember when Subie offered cars with FWD, to gain a larger audience. They failed miserably. Now, all their cars are AWD.
I’m not sure one can pin down which cars gays “prefer”. The very attempt seems ludicrous and discriminatory. I’ve seen gay friends drive Miatas, but also Pathfinders and Stangs.
limmin- I don’t see anything wrong with advertising to minorities or offering them equal rights to benefits. Your “personal morality” smacks of homophobia. Ford’s problem with sales was more likely due to their produtcs than a banning from the AFA. And for the record, it’s closer to 10% of the population.
menno- I seriously doubt Ford would advertise with “sexually perverse” ads in publications. Unless YOU would consider two men holding hands as “sexually perverse”.
It’s amazing at this day and age that people are still this prejudiced and ignorant when it comes to minorities. I applaud Ford for standing up to what’s right. Can we get back to cars now?
My morality dictates that I dislike child molestors, for example.
We covered this before. That is a weak analogy, frankly not even worthy of serious discussion. Activities between consenting adults are not the equivalent of an adult attacking a child. You’re going to have to offer a better argument than that.
In any case, I go back to my earlier point, namely that appealing to the lower-class discriminators is a good way to continue the loss of market share. Resonating most strongly with the bottom demographic is a good way of ensuring a future of diminishing sales, styles that are out of step with the tastemakers, and low prices packed with rebates.
50merc wrote:
Carlos, old Henry Ford was not a Nazi, friggin’ or otherwise.
In July 1938, prior to the outbreak of WWII, the German consul at Cleveland presented Ford with the award of the Grand Cross of the German Eagle, the highest medal that Nazi Germany gave to foreigners. Ford accepted the medal, (as did a GM VP).
And, you are correct, Henry Ford was not an avowed Nazi. I went too far. On the other hand, how would you interpret if a prominant American were to receive the highest honor bestowed by the Republic of Iran?
On balance, Ford was a very destructive person whose actions and support of hateful causes cost countless lives.
Japanese government playing unfair by helping develop hybrid cars? Please. What did Detroit do with all the cash our government gave them to development something better? Where is the Detroit hybrid?
yankinwaoz :
June 1st, 2008 at 9:35 pm
Japanese government playing unfair by helping develop hybrid cars? Please. What did Detroit do with all the cash our government gave them to development something better? Where is the Detroit hybrid?
Waoz,
That would be the Escape Hybrid, Tahoe Hybrid, upcoming RAM Hybrid, upcoming Fusion Hybrid, upcoming Chevy Silverado Hybrid, and the other upcoming Chrysler hybrids.
The issue with the domestics is that they don’t understand the concept of hybrid vehicles to begin with and don’t have a good small vehicle that they can put a hybrid drivetrain in. I like the Ram and Silverado hybrids (21 mpg is pretty good for that size truck) but they’re only going to appeal to the people who already buy Chevys and Dodges. In other words, they’re preaching to the choir.
What the Detroit 2.8 1/2 need is a competent small car to put a hybrid system into. Their current compact entries aren’t good enough to justify the huge extra cost of a hybrid drivetrain.
Ford said it was going to make a 100-mpg Fiesta hybrid, and hasn’t discussed it since. Until Ford builds it, they just can’t compete with the Prius.
Gee this has been the wildest thread i have ever read on TTAC. cyclones to ford to Nazi’s to Kennedy to Gays to Terrorist. God i love TTAC!
While it’s been fun, I think we either need to get back on topic or have this thread closed.
So are other automakers following suit?
Why are they “extreme comparisons” Psych 101?
In nature, bestiality is not any less abnormal than homosexuality.
In humanity, hatred is hatred no matter if it is because someone is a particular color, or because they partake in some particular sin or perversion.
Why the “pass” for homosexuality in our culture? Why the mass media encouraged “assumption” that real Christians “hate” one sin more than another? Or people engaged it same? Remember the old addage; to Assume makes an Ass out of U and Me.
But back on topic, in regards to the Detroit 3 having the chance (and money from OUR POCKETBOOKS as US taxpayers) to develop the “80mpg super car” during the Clinton Administration, see my other posting from a few minutes ago under TTAC Called It: 2010.
BTW I had the misfortune of choosing to look at a web link from a Christian site discussing the very advertisements that Ford DID put in homosexual magazines, with the article in question being obviously about the ongoing culture wars and how Ford was taking sides with 3% instead of 70% or whatever percent of the population you want to equate with having some kind of standards of behavior other than “doing whatever the hell they please” with their lives.
Unfortunately you can’t un-see some things. Yep, Ford DID put explicit and homosexually oriented advertisements in homosexual magazines.
Note to myself: NEVER EVER bring up gay and lesbian rights issues in a car forum…….
Looks like the so-called 70% (give or take 68% or so) have very limited choices…
http://www.gaywheels.com/gff/gayfriendly.htm
In nature, bestiality is not any less abnormal than homosexuality.
It’s not particularly “normal” to obsess about cars as we do (or for that matter, some of those who obsess about the gold standard, hint hint.) But still, I’m glad that I don’t have some religious hate group attempting to turn me into a second-class citizen just because I’ve got some different habits.
And if you study a bit of biology, you actually will see examples of homosexual behavior. But if you want an in depth discussion of the Truth About Other Species, you’re going to have post somewhere else.
Maybe they should find some time in their busy schedules to help their fellow humans, instead of trying to attack them. Although they do help to disprove Darwin, because clearly, these hatemongers haven’t evolved very much at all.
Katie, everyone is entitled to an opinion. Just be assured that we’ll have to answer for our lives at some point, and answer for our decisions in living our lives. Or at least, that’s what I believe. Why do you suppose my name on here is Menno?
I suppose you probably don’t know what a Mennonite church is, I don’t think there are any anabaptist churches in the UK.
Hmmm, okay, you’ve probably seen “Witness” the movie? Those “plain” folks were Amish. Amish, Mennonites, Hutterites and some other groups are called “anabaptists” (not “anti-baptists”). This means “re-baptizers” (adult baptism). There was also a Tim Allen moview recently, and I can’t think of the title.
Mennonites are kind of like Amish, but with cars (usually – not always), radios (usually), sometimes with televisisions and movies attendance (not the local group here),
electricity (usually – not always), modest modes of dress (both genders), against war and killing.
If anyone is curious, have a peek.
http://www.mennolink.org/doc/cof/art.19.html
I attend a local Mennonite church some of the time in addition to another church closer to home, and find that the Mennonites are more full of peace than anyone I’ve ever met. They hate NOBODY but just speak out in love, and the word.
Just so you know.
Silly me I thought Ford was losing market share because of high fuel costs and a histoy of subpar cars.
So is GM’s and Chryslers decline separate and independent from the decline of Ford.
I really don’t care one way or the other on what Ford does one way or the other on the gay issue but seriosly its the cars not the social issues.
Really it is.
Make good cars and thrive make shitty ones and die.
Actually, Sherman, I think that Ford is the only one of the Detroit three with some reasonable chance of survival. Ford sales did decline worse than GM and Chrysler during the boycott by the AFA, whether as a result of the boycott, I can’t say. The boycott is over, though. Before we even get into it – why is one group “bad guys” to boycott a company for doing what they abhor, but another group doing the same is lauded? You know what I mean. I’ve said it before – companies should simply stick to their knitting (business) and leave the culture wars to the civilians.
Sometimes “procrastination” accidentally works out well, as in the case of the somewhat smaller Ford Focus being simply warmed over instead of replaced. It means the car is reasonably well placed in size and efficiency to capture a good amount of the marketplace.
In contrast, look at the Saturn S-series cars which were replaced with far larger and heavier (and obviously, thirstier) Ions, which were total dogs (and are now replaced with hyper-expensive to import into the dollar zone Opel Astras with Saturn badging).
It’s the Vauxhallification of Saturn, really.
Everyone forgets the most important rule.
Rule #34
Mennonites are good people. They studiously follow their conscience in living virtuously, and never bother anyone other than by exhibiting happiness without the trinkets, fads and foolishness of a materialistic society. Whenever I hear someone expressing fear and hostility about the “religious right” I wonder if they actually know anything more than the media’s scarecrows. Now, to keep this post on topic, let me add this: I will forever associate Mennonites with perfectly maintained all-black cheapest-version Ford sedans. My mind somehow achived a long-ago image from western Kansas of a shiny ebony 1957 Custom (the very bottom of the line) fordor occupied by a large Mennonite family.
The base-model cars have been pretty much entirely replaced by minivans, nowadays, 50merc…
and pickup trucks (most of the local Mennonite men are carpenters – they actually use their pickups for real work, as well).
Thanks for your kind words about the Mennonite brethren (and sisters).
carlos.negros says: …the United States provides tax breaks for enormous gas guzzling SUVs that destroy the ozone and force us to invade oil-producing countries to feed our habit.
Now darn it carlos, I didn’t get my tax break for my Expedition… some details on this please (if you can!). What exactly am I due? So all that Iraqi oil is just streaming to the U.S. on our tankers instead of being sold on the world market? Where is this $1 Billion a month oil money that is flowing into the Iraqi coffers coming from? Maybe the invasion was about something other than oil. Maybe you need to update your liberal talking points, you are so 2003.
From what I understand, if you own your own business, you can write off “trucks” (which include SUV’s) on taxes but not “cars”.
So there is some absolute truth to the fact that many of us are subsidizing the driving habits of many folks who simply buy/lease their spouses SUV’s to drive to THEIR job while slapping some advertising on the side for THEIR business, in addition to the “real” work trucks.
Just for giggles, here’s an article which pretty well describes how the emperor is wearing only a smile. In regards to comments made about my desire for honest (there’s that word again) money, as in gold.
Yes, it’s true. But don’t believe me, just wait about 5 years and see what hyperinflation does.
Or you could look up the Weimar Republic, or look at Zimbabwe right now.
Here’s the article. Long, yes, but – very illuminating.
http://www.learcapital.com/marketcommentary/6731.html
The tax break I think exists for large trucks and SUVs thats why my friend a realtor specifically purchased a Ford Expedition which he was able to deduct the entire purchase price 100 percent from his taxable income.
I believe the vehicle must be greater than 5000 pounds in weight.
This tax break needs to either be eliminated or modified to include lighter vehicles
Menno, thats why I own real estate. My house is paid for and I also have 2 rental houses and a set of dupleses. If hyperinflation arrives my modest mortgages on the rental houses become worthless while the value of the houses increses. Thi is actally how many people made money during the 70s.
Fixed rate mortgages make the banks holders of increasingly worthless loans while the underlying asset retains its actual value. The trick is to hold modest properties that can be rented out.
I never put my money in flash or conspicusous consumption but rather income producing assets.
I actually have a union blue color job but I laways invested my money over the last 18 years instead of spending it on toys.
The SUV tax credit is just another example of good intentions creating or making an existing problem worse. Our gubmint decides to “do something” for the economy by making the purchase of trucks more affordable (read “good intentions”), and adds to another problem by subsidizing SUV’s. What do you think will happen if they pass the Climate Security Act of 2008? Think we’ll have a few unintended consequences along the way with the economy? I shudder to think about it.
Sherman, sounds like you have put a lot of smart thoughts into your life and it works out well for you.
Actually, I have been trying to talk Mrs. into buying a rental property – modest, yes.
Anyway….. on another topic we’ve covered here, it looks like when I go on my vacation to Canada in July, I’d better keep my trap shut, or risk huge fines.
Even the Catholic clergy is no longer immune to the insanity (and yes, before anyone even starts on me, I do realize that the United States is but a few years behind Canada in this new-world-fascist-leftist-feelgood-do-whatever-the-hell-you-
want-except-be-devout foolishness).
Read for yourselves.
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=66247
I’d say perhaps it’s time for the Mennonites, the Hutterites and other devout Christians to leave Canada and shake off their feet on the way out – except that, where would they go?
This insanity is becoming world-wide and literally, the United States is only years if not months, behind enacting such onerous “laws”.