Just yesterday I was talking with a petrolhead buddy of mine. I mentioned the only new car on the horizon that I'm personally excited about: the new Fiat 500. And the Ford Flex, but that's another story. Then our conversation bogged down into the usual "Do you like oil on your driveway," "I don't have a driveway," "Hope you have a good mechanic," "What could possibly go wrong?" Italian car conversation. Fiat CEO Sergio Marchionne is putting my mind at ease. Or not. That's right friends, he could make a decision on when and whether to re-launch Alfa Romeo in the States within the next six months. Part of the confusion is due to our incredible shrinking dollar; to make Alfa work in the US, some of the cars must be built here. And Fiat is in negotiations with various North American companies. The really wonderful news is that Marchionne thinks the 500 will be a "smash hit" here in America. And they'll either build it here, or at one of the existing Fiat plants in South America. Eventually.
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i dont see it having the continued success of the Mini. Really the only demographics i see this appealing to is Fashion Victims and if they bring us the hot-rod version Enthusiast. in both cases they will have to undercut the mini on price with out giving up any performance/mpg/quality. Really what does this have that the mini does not? or for that mater the Smart?
after an initial flurry of sales it will drop off fast.
Jonny, you might want to know that the 500 is probably highly reliable, because it is built in Poland. I say this without irony.
No really, underneath all the cuteness the 500 is a Fiat Panda, manufactured in Poland to quite high standards, and amongst the most reliable cars built in Europe. These are the only Fiats I would dream of owning.
Link no worky.
Anything would be more reliable than my 1995 164 Quadrifoglio. Never leaked oil, though.
The 500 would do well, now that gas is so expensive. A nice little car. Lots of personality, good specs.
MINI seems to have jumped the shark. The new model is not getting the raves the original one did.
The car that could out-cute the MINI.
…or out-ugly the Aztek.
Sign me up for a 500 Abarth Esse Esse, please.
I’m going to hold judgment on reliability for a bit as regardless of where it’s built it’s still a European car, and what constitutes “reliable” in Europe is several tiers below what Americans, Japanese or Koreans expect. German VWs seem to be rated as more reliable, it seems, because German customers put up with more crap.
European engineers will talk about reliability in theoretical terms: with certain technologies being more or less “reliable” by virtue of their design (diesel versus gasoline is the classic example; diesel blocks are generally stronger) from. You can prove these kinds of things in the lab, and they’re great discussions to have between engineers.
The Japanese (and lately, the Americans and Koreans) preach holistic, real-world reliability: how the vehicle holds up as a complete package, from the perspective of the customer.
What that gets you is this: a Volkswagen diesel engine is probably more reliable than a Volkswagen gasoline engine, but a hybrid Civic or Prius is probably going to be, on a whole-car basis, more reliable than both. Yes, hyrbids are more complex, but reliability from the customer’s perspective is more than just an academic discussion point on what “should” happen, it’s what actually does happen after five years of (ab)use in the field.
As for Fiat and Alfa: on a good day, they can approach VW’s quality. If they launch in the US, they had better have a good parts, warranty & service infrastructure (ie, one better than VWoA’s atrocious model) in place or they’ll be bloodied much as they were in the past.
A stylish, slightly small car will sell in droves when it hits the US market in 2010 with $6/gal gas.
I don’t understand yournamehere’s commments. I would drive this car any day.
What’s the competition? A bunch of pukey looking, crap boxes that don’t get great milage- ie. yaris, versa, cobalt, focus, and aveo! This is the vespa of cars and that is a good thing
The only car I happen to like in the segment is the Fit. YMMV.
Having had a recent Fiat Siena (bought new in 1998) I can tell
1) No oil leaks… the only one was due a defective steering rack which was replaced under warranty.
2) They need a good mechanic, but it’s because an average Joe can screw it rather than fix it.
3) The thing ran 200K kms on its original clutch, and has 350K kms on the engine, still not rebuilt.
4) No electrical or mechanical issues in 10 years.
5) It gets over 14 km/lt in the highway.
And this is in a car whose CKD came from Brazil.
I think they will do fine in the US.
I agree with Mr. Marchionne: the 500 will be a smash hit. If you’re waiting the Fiesta, this one will be uber cool.
the problem with a small car with roughly 100hp is traffic over here moves much faster then in europe. My current GTI gets better MPG than my old 1st Gen xB. when you have to drive the piss out of the car to (barely) keep up with traffic it doesnt do good things for your MPG. prime example is the Smart car.
a corolla/civc will likely get better MPG, have more room and be safer as well. it wont look or drive as good thats for sure.
if you take note of who is driving Minis right now its the same two groups i mentioned earlier. Fashion victims and gear-heads. Families dont buy Minis because they need room for kids. “Active” people dont buy Minis because they need room for stuff. Mini knows this and thats why we have the clubman and an upcoming SUV.
The problem that the 500 is going to run into is that Mini already has the demographic cornered. Many have tried the “premium” small car and have failed. Mini was the 1st to get any kind of success.
Unless Fiat can price it to compete with the yaris/aveo/fit its not going to be able to sustain sales. compared to that trio the 500 is hands down the best option, but the closer you get to $20k the better off you are looking at something else.
Pardon the racial epithet, but I can’t help but be reminded of a line from Get Shorty, when a mobster points a small pistol at another bad guy who responds ‘What the hell is that, the wop 9? The f***ing FIAT of guns?’ He does get promptly shot to death, so I guess the joke was on him.
Funny every time there is a Fiat or Alfa tread we get all these reliability posts and how the cars still must be total crap. How come no one compares them to the abyssmal crap Detriot tossed on us during the same time period. Detriot can magically develop Japanese quality(I totally don’t agree with that), but yet the Italian still build the same old cars of yore. I would trade in our Cadillac and maybe even our Subaru for another Alfa with the reliablity I got out of my Spider. The car simply outlasted anything else I have owned, especially compared to our 2000 Cadillac, and I whipped that car on a daily basis.
I think Stingray has hit the nail on the head, they need good mechanics to maintain them. People who understand the engineering and how to work on them, not your typical hammer handed mechanic. Once you get past that they are serprisingly easy to work on. I had much the same experience as Stingray with my Spider, a drop of oil while the engine cooled off(the AL block mated to a steel oil pan caused that), 180,000 miles on the original clutch, the only electrial problem was killing the lighter because I left the top down in the rain, no engine rebuild or many mechanical problems at all except for mufflers axle bearings and tie rods that showed up at 130,000 miles. And real worl mileage of 25 city and 30 highway with some 33mpg trips. I once took a trip from Cincy to Indy in an hour and 15 minutes averaging 110 mph and still got 28mpg with the top up.
I would suggest people actually try them before they pass judgement, you might be pleasantly surprised especially if you already put up with Detriots crap from the past 3 decades. The sooner they get here the better. The more choices in this market the better.
Someone is excited about a FIAT?
In a positive way?
Scheiss on a stick, that’s the funniest thing I’ve heard since Mulally said Ford was gonna turn a profit.
FIAT: It won’t be long: Fix It Again, Tony!
Say Red, how many years of experience working in the carbiz do you have?
FACT: Every previous FIAT sold in the US was a POS from day one.
Just try getting parts to fix the terd when they are on backorder…from Italy.
Factory support? What’s that?
btw: Do you remember what a fine motorcar the Yugo was?
Yugo: rebadged FIAT.
That terd was so bad, they caught fire while sitting on dealers lots, and they didn’t come with cruise control.
From BKW’s comment above, Fiat will obviously have a perception gap to overcome.
That said, I’m 36 and have never had any experience, positive or negative, with a Fiat so there is no perception problem for me. I imagine there are millions of people my age and younger for which this could be said.
So keep laughing, BKW.
I’m with Redbarchetta on this. I’ll buy one when (if) they arrive in the US. I’ve had more than my share of issues with domestic trash from the 70’s and 80’s to judge Fiat too harshly. To assume that the rest of the world’s vehicles suddenly became better while Fiat stood still is pretty ignorant.
Even better is the fact that I won’t have to worry about BKW jumping in line for one of these ahead of me.
While the 500 might be a little too cutsie for me, the Alfa Romeo MiTo isn’t. If they send that one here I will buy. Like Clarkson says, “You’re not a true petrol head unless you’ve owned and Alfa.”
I learned to drive on a FIAT 124 sedan, and subsequently owned FIAT 2000 and Alfa Spiders. All three cars made it to over 100K miles, with reliability comparable to their non- Japanese contemporaries. I owned one of those too, a Toyota Corolla, and got rid of it right quick. It turns out the Italians had spoiled me, and boring but reliable just wouldn’t do the trick. Sometimes a little extra TLC is worth the price.
I’ve rented FIATs in Europe over the years, and the fun to drive DNA still seems to be wired in.
Boring but reliable will always get most of the business (see Yaris/Aveo/Fit), but if the 500 is as much of a kick as its predecessors, fashion victim enthusiasts like yours truly will be pleased to brighten the automotive landscape with this stylish alternative to the MINI.
We really need to start a Commenter of the Day:
“That terd was so bad, they caught fire while sitting on dealers lots, and they didn’t come with cruise control.”
Amazing.
If they set up a good customer service organization, and sell the cars at reasonable prices… they’ll do it. The cars are there:
500, Grande Punto, Sedici (same as SX4), the first 2 look great, have nice engines and excellent manual gearboxes.
I don’t think you need more than 100hp in a small car. I drove a car with 73hp and had absolutely no problem keeping along the local traffic (now that I have either 130 or 160 I don’t miss the 73 anymore).
I had a Fiat 500 about 50 years ago and I still think of that car fondly, although it probably had more problems than any car I have had since. I also had a 1100 (Millicento)that was a neat car as well. Both cars had “soul” that I have seldom found since.
My only worry with a 500 today would be Austin drivers and the predominance of big pickups on the road here.
I’ll take an Alfa 159 as soon as they become available in the U.S. 2010-2011 works fine for me–that give me time to pay off my 300C.
“Funny every time there is a Fiat or Alfa tread we get all these reliability posts and how the cars still must be total crap. How come no one compares them to the abyssmal crap Detriot tossed on us during the same time period.”
Oh, Detroit sucked too, we don’t dispute that. So did the Japanese, for a time. The Koreans were awful for decades, lest we forget.
But there’s a special circle of hell reserved for the Europeans, and here’s why: yes, there were some awful American (and Japanese, and Korean) cars, but none of those makes saw fit to pair their awful products with as wretched a dealer infrastructure as the Europeans did. If your Chevy, Ford or Dodge broke down (and it did, sometimes more than once a week) you were only a few minutes from a dealer that had a full stock of parts, trained technicians and (more or less) fair warranty reimbursement. You’d probably be back on the road the same day.
If your Renault or Fiat broke, you were flat screwed for weeks while your car sat in a seedy dealership (and that dealer was how far away?) waiting for parts that, upon arrival, would be installed improperly. You’d probably also be denied warranty work because your dealer stood exactly zero chance of getting any love from a head office that cared not a whit about their overseas operations, nor their customers.
What’s incredible is that the Europeans that didn’t get chased away are still, by far, the worst in terms of customer service and warranty performance. Volkswagen sinks to some spectacular depths, and BMW and MB aren’t much better. The reason the Germans hung on isn’t so much that they made a better product, it’s that their logistics were just barely passable compared to the French, Italians and various eastern European makes.
The current rumor is that Chrysler and Fiat are in talks together for US production of Alfas (and maybe Fiats? Details are fuzzy at this point).
One possible very exciting scenario is that the Italian cars would be built at the Newark, Deleware plant. This is currently where the Durango and Aspen are built, but this plant is currently planned to be mothballed and all larger SUV production for Chrysler to be shifted to the Jefferson North plant in Detroit where the current Grand Cherokee and Commander are built.
So, if Cerberus can get the deal, a 1000+ workers in Newark have a good chance to keep their job.
yournamehere
the problem with a small car with roughly 100hp is traffic over here moves much faster then in europe.
The average traffic speeds on UK motorways are typically between 80-100 mph with plenty of forays over that. I find it hard to believe people in the US drive faster than that on public highways. I used to quite happily sit at 85-90 in my 1ltr fiat panda with the odometer registering 160,000 miles on the original engine and box which I suppose says something for its toughness.
As you said the fuel consumption of even a small car is poor at high speeds. But even at 85-90 it was still doing 31-35mpg which I thought was piss poor although it seems to be considered quite good here.
yournamehere
Traffic speeds in the UK at least are typically between 80-100 mph on a motorway. And thats everything with 4 wheels not just expensive cars.
yournamehere
Traffic speeds on motorways in the UK are typically between 80-100. And that everything with four wheels not just the expensive cars.