Old fogies like me remember when BMW's GM-sourced automatic transmissions caused sturm und drang. Brand dilution! How can we Germans rely on a foreign competitor [at least in theory] for a key technology? So much for that. So why all the hubbub when BMW reveals they'll share engines with another carmaker? At last weekend's annual shareholder meeting, CEO Norbert Reithofer caused an uproar by announcing that the next-generation 1-Series will have a four-banger developed with PSA (Peugeot/Citroën). Reality check: BMW's MINI started life with a Brazilian-built Chrysler-designed Tritec engine. The MINI One D used a Toyota-built diesel engine. From November 2006, the MINI Cooper and MINI Cooper S models have been powered by a 1.6 litre engine co-developed by BMW and PSA Peugeot-Citroën. But propeller-heads don't want a Bimmer-badged car to mix genes with the French. The Financial Times Deutschland calls the move a "taboo breaker," while shareholders bemoan the brand's move from "class to mass." Ever the beancounter, Reithofer prefers to focus on saving money: "A car's engine is responsible for 25% of the car's total manufacturing cost." So that's alright, then.
Well they wont sell anything less than an I6 in the USA, so this won’t hurt their prestige over here. And in europe people aren’t as much brand or motor snobs… So, seeing as BMW has all of its engineering in upmarket motors, this seems like a logical move.
virages: And in europe people aren’t as much brand or motor snobs… Absolutely true, in a “you couldn’t be more wrong if you possibly tried” sort of way. For example, BMW has slaughtered Ford, Vauxhall and others in the U.K. due to badge snobbery. Conversely, Lexus has died a death on the other side of the pond, for the exact same reason. This is the same boneheaded move Porsche made with the Cayenne: a short term lift, longer-term brand suicide.
I agree with virages. And it must be said that French automakers produce damn good 4-cyl engines. Since they generally don’t produce ANY other kind of engine, it makes sense!
BMW’s MINI started life with a Brazilian-built Chrysler-designed Tritec engine. The MINI One D used a Toyota-built diesel engine.
Yes, both weren’t exactly known for their extraordinary performance either.
The 1.6 was critisized for being a slow, lazy engine and really needed the help of the supercharger in the Cooper S version to overcome that problem.
The 1.4 Toyota diesel was even worse. Why buy one of the best handling cars on the market and then choose an engine that can’t use that potential at all…Also it wasn’t the most civilized engine in the noise department.
The current PSA engines are ok but by no means class leading…Actually the new diesel (in itself the product of a cooperation with Ford) is quite good. It’s also available in almost every Peugeot/Citroen/Ford/Mazda/Volvo on sale in Europe.
Anyway, they are doing nothing to make BMWs better, if anything they are worse. Not to mention, they DO dilute the image of the brand. After all BMW stands for Bayerische Motoren Werke…not Französische Motoren Werke (hope that’s spelled right).
I’m not a fan of Reithofer, he’s not a car guy, cuts to many costs and seems more interested in short term profits than long term viability. Seems to me he’s carbon copying Mercedes’ strategy from the 90s and that doesn’t bode well for BMWs of the future. BMW’s current premium image is largely based on benchmark products like the E36, E46, E34 and especially the E39, the driving dynamics and silky smooth inline-6 engines…
He seems to forget that yes, customers are paying big money for the brand name, but are only willing to do so if they get perceived quality that’s better than other’s for it in return and when that starts to fade away, it’s over.
You’ll spend the next 20 years recovering from that (or not recovering from that). But obviously Mr Reithofer knows he’ll be long gone by than and can bank some nice bonusses based on short term profits in the meantime before it starts to fall down…and buy a Lexus when he’s gone.
What make/model of egg is in the picture?
NickR
What make/model of egg is in the picture?
That’s a Citroen Xsara Picasso
JJ,
You have to remember that the BMW/Chrysler engine was developed specifically for foreign markets, especially developing ones. In other words, smaller, lighter cars that weren’t weighted down with lots safety devices. For it’s time the 1.6 was not a bad engine in power output and torque. The motor was considered appropriate for the South American market where it was manufactured in Brazil. It did meet Euro III emissions standards however.
When Dumbler “merged” with Chrysler and BMW bought Rover the relationship ended. The 1.6 was used in both the BMW Mini and the Chrysler Neon (depending on the country, the Neon was available with the 1.6, the 1.8 (a downsized 2.0) – or the 2.0 as the base engine).
For the full story on the Tritec:
http://www.allpar.com/mopar/rover.html
All I can add, is: BAOFMW (Bavarian And Occasionally French Motor Works), anybody?
Maybe they can borrow and modify Saturn’s old slogan: BMW, Just Another Car Company.
Meh, who cares… it’s the 4-cyl. It’ll prolly never make it Stateside (famous last words).
Not since the M10 have BMW done small four-bangers. Isn’t it only common sense to do what you are actually good at, and outsource the rest? BMW have no need for a small in-line four in the millions, like a million-selling company like PSA have. Why develop an engine on their own, when they’re only gonna sell less then a 100k units a year? I really don’t see the problem.
@virages:
So, seeing as BMW has all of its engineering in upmarket motors
The PSA/BMW 4-cylinders have tech like direct injection, Valvetronic, turbocharging… Not exactly cheaply engineered stuff. If BMW and PSA both benefit, what’s the problem?
The 4-cylinder gassers currently used in the 1-series are anemic. There are many theads on German forums about why the hell they don’t just drop the PSA/BMW turbo in and call it a day.
@ingvar:
Why develop an engine on their own, when they’re only gonna sell less then a 100k units a year?
They did develop it. It has many typical BMW features.
And I highly doubt the 100K figure. The majority of BMW’s worldwide sales has to be 4-cylinders – most 3-series are 4-cylinders, most X3s and Z4s are 4-cylinders, the 1-series moves 6500 units per month in Germany alone, and I bet there are not more than 200 6-cylinder ones among them.
When I buy a BMW, I want a BMW engine. I don’t care if you could, in theory, fit a better, cheaper Mercedes powerplant underhood; I don’t want it in my Bimmer.
I mean, c’mon. We’re talking about the company that regularly scoops the “best engine of the year awards.” If BMW doesn’t = BMW engines (no matter where they’re built, BTW), the brand is on a slippery slope to meltdown. A VERY gentle, almost imperceptible slope, but a slope nonetheless.
And I’d also like to point out that pistonheads are the canary in the coal mine. If the highly-focused forum folk are displeased, you are doing something wrong.
I don’t really care if BMW outsources its I4 but if they put in an outsourced I6 I would be forever disillusioned.
That’s a Citroen Xsara Picasso
Yes, in the meantime it’s been replaced by the C4 Picasso. Not that anyone should care about either too much…
@Mirko Reinhardt
Although I agree with your general comment about sales figures…
Only one engine in the Z4 is a 4 cilinder, they launched that at a later date (I think 2006?) when the model was on the market for some years already.
I don’t think most Z4s sold are 4 cilinders because the price difference between that and the entry level 6 is not that big (relatively speaking) and neither are fuel economy gains. And given the type of car the Z4 is…I think most will opt for one of the I6s…
For the X3 it is hard to say, since that is also available as a 4 cilinder diesel in Europe and probably most choose that one, but a lot of X3 sales are probably in the US (they are scarce here in the Netherlands btw, I think people who can afford the entry level EUR 50k go straight to the X5). In the US only I6 engines are offered for it (the same theory goes for the Z4 btw to a lesser extend).
But on the 1 and 3s you’re probably right and they make up the volume anyway…
Anyway, point remains that BMW can’t afford to give those customers a french engine and then still go on and request several 1000Ks more from them than PSA does itself. Especially if like Mr Reithofer says the engine is such a big part of the manufacturing costs of a car…Clients might just start to think they’re being cheated.
Ohh I got a snappy flame by Robert!
I have to say though, that the BMW diesel engines (which are small 2.0l fours) are much more attractive on paper than anything Peugeot offers. BMW has the “Efficience Dynamics” system going for it which allows the 118d to get phenomenal gas milage. The engine in the 123d was just voted “engine of the year’ here in Europe. So yeah BMW has some good efficient engines.
I think they should make a good petrol engine, but it doesn’t seem that they can be arsed with the task. As far as brand dilution, having a Pug motor doesn’t seem to hurt the Mini much… people don’t go around saying its got a Peugeot engine, it’s going to blow!
In europe, where gas is expensive and CO2 directives are backed with steep taxes, there will be a lot of people wanting a BMW with a smaller engines. They will buy them. Richer euros, and americans will be able to say they got the real Bavarian Motor with the Werks.
So with this new engine, the difference will be that BMW will mount it longitudinally while Peugeot will mount them transversally. No?
I am really not that worried. BMW has too much to lose on reputation to fuck it up. If there’s anything they can, it’s engines. Even the outsourced/jv engine in the Mini is still one of the best 1.6’s on the market. But, time will tell.
What I mean is, BMW has always made fours in the 2-litre category, and the smaller ones, down to 1.5-litre was based on that block. A real effective “small” four should be built accordingly small to be effective. In essence, there’s a difference in engine philosphy between the Mini’s 1.6 and the BMW 1.6 in for example BMW 316. BMW has always done “big-block” fours really well, but has never done a “small-block” four. That’s why I think a jv with for example PSA looks like agood idea, as they will need millions of them.
I wonder if Porsche would ever outsource partial development of their Boxer engine to Subaru. Hell, they both make ’em.
What’s the difference here with BMW? When I think of car companies that do engines the best, I think of 3: BMW, Porsche and Honda.
This strategy may lose folks like us, but won’t lose most others who have no idea the number of cylinders or valves these cars have. Many (most?) BMW buyers primarily care about what their neighbor/boss/girlfriend/mistress thinks.
In the end, it will have so many crappy plastic covers all over it nobody without knowledge will really discern it.
I bet it will have a LOT of BMW technology, specially the head design and ECU calibration, so I don’t see the problem.
If they can make the BMW engine to have a BMW “personality” instead of a Peugeot one, nobody will care.
Don’t see the problem if BMW is using (or used) GM auto gearboxes.
And I would also like a BMW with a BMW engine. Just if I have the money to buy one, I’d take an I6 one.
“wonder if Porsche would ever outsource partial development of their Boxer engine to Subaru. Hell, they both make ‘em.”
Isn’t the V6 and V8 in the Cayenne shared with Volkswagen/Audi? Just wait until the VW Tiguan/Audi Q5-based Porsche small truck, I wonder if there’s going to be a VW-four in that car? Hello Jaguar X-Type, here we come…
I agree with Robert. The engine is the heart of the car. This makes me want to look elsewhere for my next car. Even though the 1-series wasn’t on my list, the 3-series was. But I lost respect for BMW. They call themselves independent but they really aren’t. This sounds like something GM would do.
That Chrysler engine in the original Minis was a real NVH POS. I needed a car at the time, but it took less than a mile behind the wheel of the MINI to cross it off of my list. It was the NVH much more than the lack of power that repelled me.
This strategy may lose folks like us, but won’t lose most others who have no idea the number of cylinders or valves these cars have. Many (most?) BMW buyers primarily care about what their neighbor/boss/girlfriend/mistress thinks.
Yes, but I believe (maybe wrongly so) that brand perception ultimately starts with the opinions of enthusiasts…Especially in case of the high end stuff.
This strategy may lose folks like us, but won’t lose most others who have no idea the number of cylinders or valves these cars have. Many (most?) BMW buyers primarily care about what their neighbor/boss/girlfriend/mistress thinks.
Enthusiasts do not make crude generalizations about people that choose to buy BMWs just because they are considered ‘high end’.
I’m still thinking about this. What would US customers say if Lexus started having engines made by Kia or by VW? If I wanted a Peugeot I would buy a Peugeot.
Ford now advertises that its cars are as good as Toyota’s cars. Well, the best way to make sure you end up with a car as good as a Toyota is to buy a Toyota. That strategy is guaranteed to work.
Honestly, this announcement tempts me to buy a Personal Transportation Appliance. I am thinking of the 2009 Acura TSX. At least the engine will really be made by Honda.
Does it sound better if Peugeot and Citroen use BMW’s 4 cylinder engine?
That would make me think less of all three companies. BMW’s position should be that if you want a BMW engine you must buy a BMW vehicle. And I guess that should be the position of Peugeot and Citroen as well — if they have any pride in their product.