Chrysler is strangely intrigued by those "hybrid" cars you keep hearing about these days. And by cars, we mostly mean trucks and SUVs, as that's all Chrysler will be offering any time soon. Because… well, we're not actually sure why. The Detroit Free Press reports that this summer's launch of the two-mode Hybrid Aspen and Durango SUVs has Chrysler curiously optimistic about its chances in the hybrid game. Up next will be hybrid versions of the Ram, employing the same two-mode hybrid Hemi as the Aspen/Durango. And come to think of it, Chrysler doesn't really have any other hybrid options in its bag of tricks (which is mostly full of unbelievably cheap interior plastics). Although the Aspen/Durango launch has Chrysler saying it is also considering making hybrid versions of the Journey CUV and Avenger sedan, one can't help but wonder what Chrysler would put under the hood of such whips. Is there a mysterious non-V8 hybrid drivetrain hiding somewhere in Auburn Hills? If so, wouldn't we be hearing more about it, given the disappointing sales of two-mode V8's by GM? Or is the truth really that Chrysler overpaid for its hugely expensive two-mode V8, and can't afford to develop a hybrid that might get better than 30mpg? Either way, when your offerings make GM's current lineup of hybrids look fresh and innovative by comparison, you know you're in trouble.
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And nobody buys Hybrids from GM, or anyone else for that matter. Hybrid is pretty much owned by Toyota and for anyone else ot make a dent in it they will have to offer a fresh and unique spin, like TTAC’s favorite whipping car the Volt.
The whole hybrid Durango/Aspen thing is still baffling. At least GM took vehicles that sold well (Taho/Yukon) and made hybrid versions (and look how well the hybrid versions are selling now). The Durango and Aspen hardly sell in their current forms.
Maybe people who still *need* a truck are just buying the heavily discounted regular old trucks? The difference in price will buy lots of gas for a number of years.
Chrysler should really concentrate on building an appealing small car. Why don’t they take the Hornet concept the had a couple years back and produce it?
if Honda cant sell hybrids successfully then why would Chryslers even bother?!
It’s not that Toyota owns the market as much as Toyota understands it. Hybrid buyers are, generally left-leaning, moderately well-off, environmentally concerned and fairly pragmatic. If they’re using their car for work, it’s as a small-scale people mover, rather than as a utility.
In short, not the kind of people who will buy half-ton pickup trucks in upper-level trims. That was very, very stupid on GM’s part: trying to sell hybrids to exactly the wrong demographic. Smart move. Meanwhile, the Camry, Escape, RX and Highlander move pretty well despite being in the Prius’ shadow.
If GM wanted to sell hybrids, they should have stuck the powerplant in a Saab (gee, there’s that demographic again). If their only aim is to reduce the CAFE impact of their most gluttonous vehicles, then V6 or I5 turbodiesels are probably a smarter move.
Of course, this is GM and Chrysler. “Smarter” doesn’t come into their product planning.
Slow down on the Hybrid thing, Chrysler! It’s not like Toyota is making any money on the Prius.
Toyota founded it, refined it, and defines it. They effectively own the hybrid niche that they created and probably will for the forseable future. Unless of course GM actually delivers with the Volt and I hope they do. We’ll see.
Ford seems to do okay on its hybrid Escape/Mariner line — it’s not just Toyota, though they are the market leaders. Honda got a bit of early splash in hard-core green circles from the Insight, and the Civic hybrid is still on the map.
Nobody had a hybrid full size SUV or pickup until GM came along… and now Chrysler wants to play in the same space. In a certain sense, hybrids can give you the most bang-for-the-buck in large vehicle applications (assuming — big assumption — that the hybrid premium does not grow quite as quickly as the weight of the vehicle). Basically, a 50% increase in economy means more if your starting point was 1000 gallons per year consumption (a full size SUV’s thirst), versus starting 500 gallons per year fuel consumption (a midsize sedan’s thirst).
The problem, of course, is that the large SUV / large pickup segment was full of buyers who really do not have much of a need for (or place much personal value on) the full capabilities of their vehicles. It was easy enough to up-sell buyers when times were flush and gas was cheap, but now people are fleeing downmarket. A hybrid pickup might attract the attention of someone who’s going to stick with pickups anyway, but grabbing a larger slice of a rapidly shrinking pie doesn’t seem to be a very safe strategy.
In other news in case you missed it, Dodge announced today that its redesigned 2009 Ram 1500 will be 20% more fuel efficient than the 2008 model it replaces. The new Ram’s reduced appetite for fossil fuels can largely be attributed to the truck’s new, more aerodynamic styling and a diet that results in 80 lbs. less of truck to haul around. More important, however, is the newly revised 5.7L HEMI V8, which gets a big boost in power from 345 hp to 380 hp and 375 ft-lbs. of torque to 404. Despite the strength training, Dodge engineers still expect up to a 20% gain in highway fuel economy. The 2009 model will get 23 mpg on the interstate.
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/05/29/2009-dodge-ram-up-to-20-more-fuel-efficient-than-before/#comments
Also, how can little Dodge afford to give the Ram a completely new body right down to the last detail, but Ford has to recycle the 04 doors, windows and basic shape on their “new” 09?
The HP increase helps the MDS function at a wider range of conditions, and BTW, the 5.7 is a ULEV engine. It burns pretty clean thanks in part to 16 spark plugs.
As for the Hybrids:
“The two-mode hybrid system provides assistance from electric motors allowing the HEMI V-8 to remain in four-cylinder mode more often than without a hybrid powertrain, improving overall fuel economy.
The two-mode hybrid provides all of the fuel-saving benefits of a full-hybrid system, including electric-only operation. In this mode, the engine is “shut off,” with the vehicle moving under electric-only power at low speed. The result is a significant reduction in fuel consumption in heavy stop-and-go traffic.
The second mode is used primarily at highway speeds. In addition to electric assist, the second mode provides full power from the 5.7-liter HEMI V-8 when conditions demand it, such as when passing, pulling a trailer or climbing a steep grade.”
Chrysler press release
windswords…interesting. A 20% increase is certainly nothing to sneeze at. The Aspen, I am not sure I would have bothered, but if Chrysler is going to survive at all it’s maintaining it’s sales AND margins on the RAM. Can the restyle and the hybrid make all the difference? Honestly, I wouldn’t care to wager.
The $50K Hybrid Tahoe is clearly not selling well. Why does Chrysler think that the Durango, which is inferior in every way to the GMT900 based Tahoe, will fare better when sporting a similar price tag?
windswords: In other news in case you missed it, Dodge announced today that its redesigned 2009 Ram 1500 will be 20% more fuel efficient than the 2008 model it replaces.
Not true. Classic case of what happens when rumors get passed around too many times. The quote from Chrysler in the DetNews was “10 to 20% better highway mileage”. AutoBlog turned it into 20%. 20% is 100% more than 10%.
Guess which it will be? Remember VW’s recent predicitions about the TDI’s EPA numbers?
Paul,
OK I will amend that:
In other news in case you missed it, Dodge announced today that its redesigned 2009 Ram 1500 will be 10 to 20% more fuel efficient than the 2008 model it replaces.
By the way the Autoblog story did say the gain would be in highway miles, since things like improved aerodynamics and MDS are not relevant until you get on the highway.
By the way I know an owner of an ’06 Ram with MDS regularly gets between 20-21 MPG with 3.90 gears and factory 20″ wheels at 75 MPH. He’s done several tanks at 21.9. And the nice thing about MDS is most people will never notice it, especially at highway speeds. On smooth rural roads he says can pick it up with the radio off. Kind of like the A/C compressor kicking on/off, but much more subtle. Realistically, if you aren’t trying to find it, you won’t.
GM will soon release something that I think might sell, a hybrid pickup. The SUV is almost always an optional purchase and those daunted by rising gas prices can downsize to something else.
Pickups, however, are more often for business. If GM can make a compelling case for reduced fleet operating cost through better fuel economy, I think they have a shot at some sales.
Of course, GM’s decision to price the Yukahoe hybrid ridicully expensively doesn’t help. The same strategy would likely kill any demand for a hybrid Silvierra.
I think they’ve got an even better shot at some sales if they resurrect an option they put on their original fauxbrid pickup… A/C power. And make it standard. Or at least low cost (generators start at under $600 – this option should be less than that). It’s not just a truck, it’s your emergency generator and power for all your tools in the field.
They could even play up the emergency generator aspect for suburbanites.
“Also, how can little Dodge afford to give the Ram a completely new body right down to the last detail, but Ford has to recycle the 04 doors, windows and basic shape on their “new” 09?”
Maybe because the current F150 is already one of the best in the business while the Dodge is the Dodge of full sized trucks. Business wise, this is hardly the time to be making big investments in the incredible shrinking full sized truck market. How much you want to bet Nissan wishes it had all the money back it spent doing Titan?
“Pickups, however, are more often for business.” In recent times the business use buyers have been about 1/2 the market. Now that the fashion buyers are getting out there are plenty of really clean lightly used trucks on the market.
Chrysler needs to learn from the GM experience and offer the Durango Hybrid in a base trim. Nobody is going to buy a 40 thousand dollar Durango because it gets 25 MPG on the highway.
There needs to be a sub 30K Durango Hybrid the minimal options and then advertise the heck out of the 25 MPG figure.
What are the two modes of the Hemi’s system: thirsty and thirstier?
Alex, the Hybrid system is best for around town driving where the electric motor produces the greatest savings (just like the Prius). On the highway, tall gearing and MDS provide the savings vs old technology. If the fuel savings for the ’09 Ram are real then expect to see some of the same aero features show up on the next gen Grand Cherokee and Durango.
John, that’s the thing. Ford builds more F150’s than anythng else and they make a lot of money off them. But when it comes time to revamp them, they don’t go all the way. That tells me that either they don’t think they have too or more likely, they are in a cash crunch and were told to do it as cheaply as possible. The forums I frequent have been overall disappointed at Ford’s effort.
Chryslers track record with a “regular” vehicle is horrible. Throw in the complexity of more things hastily designed and working together and you have a warranty mess. Oh, did I mention warranty and Chrysler in the same sentence? With their well known rep for denying warranty claims( in the first 36,000 miles no less) for problems they know about but wont make good on, this should be real fun to watch.
More aerodynamic body….
80 lbs. less of truck to haul…
5.7L HEMI V8, which gets a big boost in power from 345 hp to 380 hp and 375 ft-lbs. of torque to 404.
I don’t understand this.
If the truck is lighter and aerodynamic, then why do they need a more powerful motor? Why did they not take the technology that boosted the HP and Torque of the motor and make a smaller one?
What if they made a motor that produced 80% of the HP and torque of the previous motor to reflect the decreased load it has to carry? The decreased size plus increase in efficiency could have given them a 40% increase in mileage.
If they could make a truck that does the same amount of net-work (the power left over for “work” after moving itself around) for half the fuel as Ford and GM pickup, then they could really move some metal.
Perhaps that is just not macho enough for the marketing department to work with? How can they explain “We have LESS horsepower now ’cause we don’t need as much anymore”?
The consumer truck industry seems to have painted itself into a corner by establishing a meaningless metric as a way to sell itself.
yankinwaoz: you hit it on the head. Your proposal is absolutely reasonable, but the marketing department can’t sell it. Or at least they don’t believe that they can.
Someday the horsepower war will come to an end. It will take an automaker with some stones to do it, though.
All right TTAC, I’d like your opinion.
I’m looking at pickups (think they’re awesome) and like the Ram Hybrid. Nicest lookin’ truck on the domestic market right now. I’d like to ask a question (I think it’s on topic).
I think we can all agree around these estimates on the Ram:
-Around 21 mpg fuel economy overall (same as Chevy Tahoe, which weighs more)
-Really powerful 5.7 HEMI
-Priced base ~38K (maybe, current Ram HEMI crew retails at ~30K)
-Huge markdowns on fullsize pickups (didn’t Autoblog say $13K off MSRP for a $32K HEMI crew, so it cost around $19,995?)
Assuming then that Chrysler lasts long enough to bring the Dodge to the market (doubtful), is it possible that a Ram base hybrid could cost consumers as little as $25K out the door? And would that then be a reasonable consideration, say, for a family looking for an Accord or Camry? After all, their V6s get around 21 mpg too.
I don’t like the way it’s looking for Chrysler–those prices are just too low for the company to survive any longer–but it sounds like this Ram might be a decent truck. What’s your opinion?
-Huge markdowns on fullsize pickups (didn’t Autoblog say $13K off MSRP for a $32K HEMI crew, so it cost around $19,995?)
They are offering an advertised rebate of $12Gs around here, so you can probably easily get $13k off, or more, with some hard bargaining.
The consumer truck industry seems to have painted itself into a corner by establishing a meaningless metric as a way to sell itself.…
And that is exactly the problem. Until America weans itself from the bigger and more is always better way of thinking, nothing is going to change. This moronic, supersized, McMansion way of thinking has been ingrained into us from or first birthday. What a big boy/girl you are!! Somebody please end this Jabba the Hut upbringing, please!