One year ago [Chrysler Suicide Watch 12] I opined that Jeep was morphing from the world's most uniquely-American brand into a schizophrenic abyss of muddled models. Of course, this analysis hardly required the keen insights of branding guru Al Reis. Jeep had just introduced the unconvincing Compass and platform partner Patriot to the market. And they were preparing to launch a re-skinned Jeep Liberty. The Liberty was the reigning best selling small SUV on the market. So one year later, how has the brand progressed? As a Jeep owner and acolyte of [what's left of] the brand, I'm sorry to say that Jeep's crisis is far deeper than before.
After the "merger of equals" between Daimler and Chrysler, the Germans correctly surmised the Jeep brand's importance to ChryCo's overall health. When Jeep did well, Chrysler did well. When Jeep sales flagged, Chrysler tanked. The bellwether brand was ripe for expansion; it only had three models (Wrangler, Grand Cherokee and Liberty/Cherokee). So the good Doktor wrote a prescription for more models. From a business standpoint, it fit the "feed your successes, starve your failures" template to a T.
Und now…
The good news: Jeep sales are relatively flat in a sinking market, averaging 473,840 from 1996 through 2007. The bad news: the numbers are flat (Jeep sold just 475,237 vehicles in 2007). Remember: all three of Jeep's core models have been completely revamped in the last three years, and three new models (Commander, Compass, and Patriot) darken dealership doors. Jeep should be a lot further ahead.
In fact, call it "Are We Not Jeep?" Devolution is everywhere. The once ubiquitous Grand Cherokee has fallen the farthest. In 1999, Jeep sold more than 300k units. In 2007, they sold less than half of that total (120,937). The result seem quite so bad if you add in Grand Cherokee's platform-sharing sibling, the "we swear we're going to kill it" Commander. But even so, the platform is losing ground at an alarming rate.
Meanwhile, Liberty sales plummeted from a high of 171,212 in 2002 to just 92,105 last year. In 2007, Cherokee/Liberty sales fell below 100k for the first time in the last eleven years.
Much digital ink has been spilled deriding the Commander and its woeful sales. But it's the Jeep Compass that really needs to go.
Jeep managed to sell more than twice as many Commanders during its first full year of production (88,497 in 2006) as the Compass did in it first full year (39,491 in 2007). Even if the Compass has a huge profit margin, one has to wonder why Cerberus would continue producing a chunky little Jeep with all the appeal of Hillary Clinton in a tankini.
Sales numbers for 2007 indicate nothing conclusive about the Patriot, which sold 40,434 units in a partial year. The Patriot at least looks like a credible Jeep and gets excellent gas mileage– compared to the rest of the Jeep lineup. It's a keeper, even though it's not nearly as good as it needs to be to compete with the likes of the RAV4 and CRV.
The only clear hero in the lineup is (may we have a military drum roll please)… the Wrangler. The jeepiest of Jeeps is shouldering the load of the brand-diluting models that Daimler, Chrysler and Cerberus leadership have in their infinite non-wisdom devised. Sales of this crude gas hog jumped 33 percent in 2007 to nearly 120k units. That's more than any other Jeep model except the Grand Cherokee (which barely edged it out, so to speak). Wrangler's year-over-year increase (39K) almost matched the number of Patriots sold during ‘07.
Clearly, the suburbanization of the Jeep brand has been an utter failure. Daimler failed to recognize that Jeep is not a plastichrome badge on a car.
Jeep is an outdoorsman's lifestyle. Jeep owners want to feel the wind in their hair– even if they don't have any– and the roar deafens them at highway speeds. They would rather have more torque than better fuel efficiency. They aren't as concerned with zero to sixty and quarter mile times as they are with ground clearance and break-over angles. They want the ability to drive anywhere; going around an oval doesn't much interest them. Jeep owners are participatory hands-on lovers of the untamed world. They want to be in nature with the top down and doors off.
Even if they don't. Either way, Jeep's customers are most decided NOT bobblehead dolls chillin' in the ‘hood. Has Cerberus figured this out? If only. Consider this: the automaker quietly and unceremoniously scuttled the annual Camp Jeep for 2008. At a single stroke, the automaker betrayed the brand faithful and signaled to the keepers of the flame that said blaze flickers on the brink of extinction. America's Ferrari is an endangered species.
The “hero in the lineup” Wrangler is down 28% YTD through April 2008. The total Jeep lineup is down 13% YTD.
I think the runaway success of the 4-door Wrangler has run its course. How do I gauge the popularity of a model? I check out edmunds.com prices paid forum.
For example, tons of postings on the Civic. Tons of postings on the Wrangler… until January. Then postings dropped off the cliff.
Perhaps all those dealers who sold above MSRP to an enthused underserved market have overestimated the pent-up demand, it being a smaller one than first thought.
Add to that the pure sluggishness of the Wrangler driving experience, combined with abysmal fuel consumption numbers, and I wonder indeed if the bloom is off the new Wrangler.
Uh oh. I thought the 4 door Wrangler was the only thing Chryslereberus had going “for” it.
So, the last ankle is broken (to bring to mind an unfortunate incident over the weekend at the horse races).
When do they call in the vet to euthanize Chrysler/Jeep/Dodge? (Chapter 7).
The reason the 4 door Wrangler sales are so high is the “blingability” factor as I call it. They have become the poor mans Hummer. All but one 4 door I have seen in Houston has ridiculous rims and low profile tires.
It is blasphemy of the highest degree. I had to tow one out of a muddy lot we had pulled into to watch a local parade for new years. I laughed as truck after truck after SUV pulled in, half with the ludicrously large wheels and low profile tires spinning away. Of about 20 cars there, I was one of 5 able to get out on my own thanks to fact I had 4 wheel drive and all-terrains. The guy in the Jeep cussed and was yelling about how Jeeps were supposed to be good off-road. I didn’t want to point out to him why his was having some trouble and the argument would have been lost on him anyway. Plus I didn’t want to get shot.
Jeeps have their die hards who off road – that is the core. Then they have their posers who by it for the image and use it soley as a minivan and commuter.
I am a minivan/commuter poser. And I liked the idea of the Patriot, stupid name notwithstanding, because it reminded me of the old Cherokee. What I wanted in a wagon, though, beside snow/wet weather competence, was a manual trans and a less plasticky/unctuous/bruising interior. Real-world 20 mpg would have helped, too. For all that I might have looked over the rattling, poor ride, and brutal noise level.
kericf,
I am from Houston but live in Denver now with my 06 Rubicon. I was back home last year and wanted to drive a 4-door Wrangler. At the dealership, we walked out to a sharp looking green Sahara and as I slipped into the driver’s seat, I made a discovery akin to finding out that a most attractive woman is in fact a neuter: there was no transfer case lever. I quickly learned that virtually all of the 4-door Wranglers shipped to Houston are two-wheel-drive. All two-doors remain four-wheel-drive, but a Wrangler without a front axle is no Wrangler at all. All of the torque numbers and breakover angles go out the window and the mpg’s and harsh ride take center stage.
I’m thankful that here in Birmingham, land of the donk-it-alls, that the Jeep is still the exclusive territory of frat boys and midlife crises…hence, far more offroad (posturing) than urbanization.
I’m just shocked we still haven’t seen a diesel Wrangler in the US yet.
Thankfully I live in upstate NY and have yet to see a 2wd Wrangler.
My wife and I have had a Wrangler, 3 Grand Cherokees and a Liberty.
The Wrangler was, hands down, the most fun vehicle I ever had. It rattled, it was slow, it was noisy. But when it’s 80 degrees and the top and doors were off, there’s nothing you can compare it to. You almost can’t wipe the smile off your face cruising down the highway. I had to ditch it when our daughter was born because I couldn’t get the carrier in and out of the backseat, and forget having a passenger next to you with the carseat behind their seat. They could lick the windshield from the seat position.
Recently they introduced the Commander, which allegedly and rightfully is due to expire next year.
They re-designed the Grand Cherokee, which is nice, but I think they missed the opportunity to blend more of a CUV/SUV style to it.
The Liberty redesign I think is kind of sharp, but this was a vehicle that mostly appealed to women and now it appeals to no one.
If you’re not really into Jeeps, you may not be familiar with all the improvements made to the new Wranglers. With the exception of the engines, they implemented many of the issues Jeep people had.
Every year, they hold a Camp Jeep, a family oriented festival with bands, demos, offroading and a Q&A with Jeep engineers. Something like that can build an extremely passionate fanbase, and when you actually LISTEN to that fanbase, you can gain an amazing brand loyalty.
Somewhere along the past couple years, one of those execs that believes in “extending the brand” took a crap in the Jeep waters and we’re left with things like the Patriot, Compass and Commander. Apparently no car exec is happy in their niche, improving on what they’re already good at. They feel this compulsion to expand into new areas and…compete against their other brands with the exact same car of a different name. I don’t get it.
@ash78
Is it a midlife crisis if I’m only 32? As long as the doors come off I’m fine with that. :)
the diesel wranger was gonna hit here but the motor couldn’t hit the new standards. is the wranger the only US 4 door convertable out there right now? Thats gotta be worth something. Don’t buy one if you’re looking for fuel miliage.. but they are still great jeeps! (excluding the 2wd models). The new liberty is a flop style wise and the patriot offers close to the same space with far better miliage. Chrysler should cut back to the grand cherokee, the wranger (2 and 4 door) and the patriot and call it a day.
My dad bought a hemi-powered Grand Cherokee last year.
It’s kind of like an X5, except not as smooth, cheaper on the inside, and it rides rougher.
But, it’s (upfront pricing) cheaper than an X5, has good power, and handles… acceptably, so I guess it’s all relative.
Traditional off-road Jeeps are odd creatures, elegant in their own way because they were almost perfectly adapted to thrive in a niche environment.
That environment is located several miles beyond where the pavement ends. Harsh and rugged, the Jeeps were safe there for decades. Indeed, their last major challengers were the Blazers, Broncos and Scouts of the 1960s and 1970s.
Since then, the Wranglers and Cherokees have been at the top of their food chain. But now a scarcity of Jeep food (gas) and a steady encroachment on their habitat has made them a threatened species.
Jeep can’t do much about habitat loss (most of the 4X4 spots I used to explore in Colorado are closed now) but Jeep can improve its chances of survival by going on a low-hydrocarb diet. And soon.
Jeeps get unconscionably poor mileage, which seems only to get worse with each ‘upgrade.’ Jeep is unable and/or unwilling to replace their archaic engines with something from the 21st century.
Oddly, my old 1980 CJ-5 got about 25 city and 20 highway mpg. With a 2.5 four-banger and a five-speed manual tranny, it was undriveable on the highway, but tolerable in town (compared to other cars of the early 1980s) and *outstanding* in the extreme stuff.
Jeep killed the CRD Liberty.
Which would have been great to sell right about now.
Typical of a company (Chrysler) that has nothing that gets over 30hwy mpg.
Kericf,
I live in Houston, and I see 4 door wranglers daily. I have never seen one with low profile tires. I am not calling you a liar, I know our city is likely bigger than some of the smaller countries. I live inside the loop, where do you live?
PS
Haven’t noticed any 2 wheel drive ones around either, but I will look for them.
Actually, they make a lot of since here though. Our normal terrain problem is high water, not snow or mud. Also, a 2wd version would do just fine to put a small boat or jet ski into the water. As I have noted before, I have more than once driven past stuck 4wd vehicles in a 2wd pickup with street tires. Less weight, less sink, less getting stuck.
Anyone else think that Jeep would be farther ahead just to bring back the original Cherokee and Comanche with some modest updates?
I’ve looked at Grand Cherokees as a replacement for my Forester, and they are just too much vehicle for my needs.
Used Cherokees under 75,000 miles are rare in these parts. However, a well-done, updated Cherokee is one of the few vehicles I’d consider buying new.
eggsalad,
The Liberty CRD had outstanding performance.
The European engine has a taste for outrageously expensive parts. I know a fellow Jeeper with a CRD who tried to make it from Texas to Moab for the Easter Jeep Safari. He picked up a bad load of diesel in New Mexico and spent the better part of a week in Cortez, Colorado waiting for four new fuel injectors to be shipped from Italy. Each cost $1000.
Having talked with his brother, it sounds as if he no longer has any love for the CRD which had performed so well.
Landcrusher :
Highway 6 on the west side of Houston, north of 10. If it helps, I drive by a place called “Rent-N-Roll” every day going to work. You can seriously rent your rims. I weap for humanity.
This is a Jeep that was for sale at Ron Carter in Alvin. I am not the poster on the forum either.
http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=448872
It’s a micro example, but I just convince a friend to NOT buy a wrangler to replace his PT cruiser. He always loved jeep, but after some tugging, surrendered the fact that he never goes off-roading. In that case, there was no point buying a harsh-riding gas hog. He’ll get a Honda element or Fit instead.
Even the wrangler is feeling the pain of the times, which is that people start to make rational, practical decisions as opposed to image-based decisions, a realm where jeep (and ferrari,…) rule.
Unfortunately for jeep, while Ferrari caters to people rich enough to ignore gas prices, such is not the case of the outdoors specialist.
Three problems.
First:
Only Wrangler is really used off-road. Jeeps other than Wranglers are not really. That means most of the sales of the Jeep brand are a fashion that has run its course or are used for general utility or driving in snow, for which there are many other solutions.
Second:
Jeep is a regional brand in the US. Do you see Taliban in Afghanistan drive Jeeps? No, those folks drive Toyota pickup trucks.
Third:
The competition has bypassed Jeep. Toyota SUVs and pickup trucks are simply better in most cases. And so, here in California, besides Jeep Wrangler you see a lot of Toyotas off-road, in particular Toyota Tacoma pickup trucks.
William, great analysis.
I personally would like to see Cerberus disentangle Jeep from the rest of Chrysler and sell it to a firm that knows how to develop a brand on a global basis. LVMH, Harley-Davidson, Timberland, even P. Diddy.
Yes, I just suggested that a second rate rapper would do a better job fixing Jeep than the combined genius of Renault, Chrysler and Daimler-Benz.
Keric,
Wow, that’s a long way from me. No wonder I hadn’t seen any. Must be a kid thing.
Alvin used to have a big truck thing, with all sorts of folks putting HUGE mud tires and lift kits on trucks and going out into the swamps around there by day, and cruising from the Jack in the Box to the Dairy Queen and back by night.
EJ,
That fashion hasn’t really run it’s course in my opinion. It may be a bit cyclical, but it will never really dissappear. Jeep is a brand where a lot of RF’s branding beliefs would seem to REALLY apply in hard ways.
Given equal value otherwise, plenty of people wanting an AWD SUV would prefer the Jeep due to it’s brand. That works well until you either fail to bring equal value, or you build the compass and patriot.
The Commander was a good idea, 3-rows-of-seats in a capable off-road vehicle. Sadly the resulting vehicle, while decent enough, doesn’t have enough leg-room in the 3rd-row seat to make it a worthwhile purchase. It really doesn’t have anything to offer that the Grand Cherokee doesn’t also offer.
The Liberty and Wrangler are both terribly overweight. They’re both no longer available with 4-cylinder engines and considering their weight, if they were, they probably would not offer either very good performance or very gas mileage. Still, I like both vehicles. Chrysler should probably discontinue would be the Dodge Nitro (the badge-engineered version of the Jeep Liberty).
The Compass and Patriot are dogs, although I suppose it makes sense to keep the Patriot in the lineup until a new-and-improved version comes along.
Jeep is a regional brand in the US. Do you see Taliban in Afghanistan drive Jeeps? No, those folks drive Toyota pickup trucks.
…
Seems to me Jeep should have tried to market the Wrangler and Grand Cheokee in places around the world. They would be a good fit, especially in countries where fuel costs are not a concern. Once again, a good chance to sell more vehicles squandered by pathetic management…
“Jeep is a regional brand in the US. Do you see Taliban in Afghanistan drive Jeeps? No, those folks drive Toyota pickup trucks.”
And that’s how I’d like it to stay.
As for Jeeps, they’ve been available in more cicilized places like Japan and Europe for years now (but they don’t come with an AK-47 or RPG).
Jeep is off track, I’d say, particularly the Wrangler. It is an over bloated caricature of if its former self. For forty years it and its progenitors were compact, under 3000 lbs, and could be had with 4 cylinders. Then in just the past 5 years Jeep transformed it in into a fashion statement family hauler, a buff rugged station wagon.
Of course, a neighbor has a new Toyota FJ cruiser and an original FJ40 parked next to it. Same story.
Shit you can’t get a 4-cyl Suzuki anymore either.
Frick’n car makers always pushing bigger bigger bigger. :(
windswords,
I apologize for that joke if you find it offensive.
I agree that the Jeep brand needs some pruning to get back to its roots.
Offer 3.0L Mercedes CRD as an option in the Grand Cherokee and Wrangler at all trim levels. The engineering for the GC is already done. Adding it to the Wrangler would only require some minor tweaks as it’s the default engine for the export models.
Offer a pickup variant of the Wrangler, the cost to throw a pickup bed on the back of the Unlimited platform is low.
There are plenty of Big 3 Loyalists with ½-1 Ton pickups who would downsize to a Diesel Wrangler pickup. There would be some cannibalization of Dakota sales, but I suspect they would get a lot of conquest sales from others who offer small/midsize pickups.
Bring back the 2.4L four cylinder as the base engine in the Wrangler.
Kill the Liberty, Commander and Compass.
The market segment served by the current Liberty is covered by the Patriot and Wrangler Unlimited. Those who want a AWD soft-roader are better served by the Patriot. The hard-core are better off with a 4 door Wrangler.
The Commander was an ok idea poorly executed for the era of $1.50/gal gas, it needs to be retired.
The Compass is a brand equity eroding abomination. A crappy compact car with awful pseudo-rugged styling.
Eggsalad:
Chrysler did not kill the Liberty CRD, the 2007 diesel emissions regulations did. They could not justify the cost of getting the 2.8 VM engine to meet the new standards for a niche product.
Mopar Performance is offering the 2.8VM as a crate engine for the 1997-2006 Wrangler.
EJ_San_Fran:
I’ve used my bone stock KJ Liberty CRD on some logging trails in the Sierra and plenty of BLM roads in Northern NV. It’s not a Wrangler, and suffers from low ground clearance stock but its plenty capable off road. With the addition of a modest lift, skid plates, proper tires and a locker in the rear I’d be Rubicon ready.
Offer 3.0L Mercedes CRD as an option in the Grand Cherokee and Wrangler at all trim levels. The engineering for the GC is already done. Adding it to the Wrangler would only require some minor tweaks as it’s the default engine for the export models.
I agree that Jeep should make diesel an option across the line, especially for their off-road packages. The Liberty CRD “test” exceeded all sales expectations that DCX had when they launched it. The JGC test, not so much. I think it would have worked if they had made it an option for an entry-level Laredo rather than trying to convince luxury SUV owners to pony up the big dollars for the Overland.
As for putting the 3.0L Mercedes CRD in the Wrangler, Chrysler tells me that it doesn’t fit. It would require major redesign, not minor tweaks, to make it work. I still hope to see a CRD in the Wrangle, but it won’t be this one.
It is interesting how GC sales have sharply declined when it went to IFS.
I had a long talk with a Jeep expert yesterday. He actually worked closely with Chrysler in the original design of the Wrangler Rubicon. Starting in about 1976 or so, he says, Jeeps became profoundly biased towards highway handling and away from off-road prowess, which unfortunately also dramatically increased their sales numbers. The infamous rollover litigation that hit Jeep particularly hard parodoxically was crucial in the creation of a modern market phenomonen.
This is the horns of the dilemna for Jeep. Before Jeep was bought out by AMC, Jeep was at best a tiny and marginal niche player. AMC and subsequently Chrysler ingeniously turned it into a mass-market phenomenon.
I have owned ten Jeeps over the years and driven many more. Right now, I own a 72 CJ5 that is profoundly built and biased towards off-road capability. Consequently, it is nearly undriveable and really unsafe to drive on the highway. I also have an 06 Rubicon. Off-road, there is no comparison: The Rubicon loses by a huge margin in almost every type of terrain. The Rubie, in stock form, is at best a barely marginally-acceptable off-road performer. And this is a widely-held belief among the off-road Jeep Kool Aid drinkers.
Not until you have seen a properly set up older CJ5 tip toe easily through a hairy situation in two wheel drive, but a Rubicon locked and loaded gets stuck up to the doors can you graphically appreciate how far Jeep has brazenly betrayed its core market.
And so Jeep sheepishly joined the SUV craze (installing IFS on everything but the Wrangler) and almost succeeded in permanently alienating its core market, but for the fact that core market has no where else to go.
Jeep has an unusually delicate balancing act to perform. Espcially with today’s gas prices and it now being just another gas hog soccer mom SUV. Realistically, most Jeep buyers now need or actually use less off-road capability than the Compass, but need better gas mileage.
@Larry P2: as you hinted at, a majority of CG owners wouldn’t recognize a live axle if it hit them in the forehead. (That was also a criticism of the Land Cruiser/Lexus LX for the US market starting with the previous generation.) The latest GC merely got broadsided by CUV-mania in the same way that Explorer sales are about a quarter of what they were at the peak.
The new Wrangler is exactly what a Jeep should be.
N88523, kericf: people who don’t like the 2WD, 4-door version need to accept it as a cash cow for Chrysler, and remember that the traditional 2-door Wrangler is still all-4WD. It’s still consistent with the brand’s image, and the fact is that many people don’t need 4WD. Why not offer the customer what they want?
When I come to power, Jeep will have three models:
– Wrangler (2-door and 4-door)
– Cherokee
– Comanche small pickup.
William C Montgomery :
The appeal of the Diesel KJ was that you could get a 4×4 diesel for 23-28k. It slotted nicely in price and capabilities below a full sized pickup or SUV.
A few months ago Jeep saw the light and started offering the CRD for the Laredo Trim Level, still stickers $38k for a 4×4 though. At that price point you can purchase a full sized 1-ton diesel pickup.
I wonder what they are actually selling for; I know some of the Ram pickups are going for $10-15k below sticker.
Correct me if I am wrong but the way I see it Jeep is simply the remains of long defunct AMC. A company that was unable to survive off of Jeep as it core brand close to 30 years ago.
I know quite a few of you guys actually think a auto-brand based solely on off-raod capable vehicles is a good concept today or made sense in the past, but come on and get a grip here. We are talking about uncomfortable, poor riding, poor handling, slow, mostly cramped, poor mileage, vehicles with questionable build quality.
VEHICLES OF THIS GENERAL NATURE ONLY APPEAL TO A VERY SELECT CROWD! Not something a successful brand can be based on today UNLESS it is going to be a high-end speciality brand with limited sales of very expensive products.
In all honesty today Jeep bascially has nothing to sell. The new 4dr Wrangler can at best can be described as “cute”. OK, you can take the whole roof off with a great deal of effort! Once that novelty wears off the cuteness factor of having a jacked up 4500lbs+ vehicle with a removable roof and all the other drawbacks that go along with it make you wish you had purchased that Xterra (if you are actually going off road). Outside of the roof this thing has crappy underpowered, gas-sucking engine, typically cheap Chysler plastics, horrible on-road behavior. Give it a couple of years and those seals around the top will start to leak to the point you will think your high-school coach is blowing his whistle right into you ear.
Every Wrangler I have been in since the CJ-7 has felt like a disposable vehicle, with the cheapest interior Chysler could install. This seriously takes away from any feeling ruggedness or long term durabilty.
The simple fact that both Toyota and Nissan manage to successfully sell alot of relatively expensive off-road vehicles right in the same showroom as Carollas and Sentras is a clear indication that a dedicated brand for this type of product is not a viable solution.
@ Larry P2-
You compared a built/modified CJ5 to a factory stock new Rubicon and found the factory model unsatisfactory?
Do tell.
At the risk of splitting hairs, I think a better comparison would be to compare a KJ to another unmodified 2009 model from a different manufacturer.
The new jeeps may not be as capable as purpose built older jeeps, but it will probably be an acceptable choice for offroading when compared to anything else available in US showrooms.
Larry P2,
As a fellow 06 Rubicon driver, I find your statements somewhat hard to swallow. I recognize that the CJ-5 has infinite potential when modified, but to suggest that a stock TJ Rubicon is marginal off the pavement is misleading. Live axles, a 4:1 transfer case, coil springs on all corners, lockers at both ends as well as a limited-slip rear differential are a winning recipe. The only fly in the soup is the low-hanging transfer case and transmission skid-plate. Sure, I’ve stuck my Jeep a time or two but there isn’t a stock 4×4 on the market that can keep up with it. I’ve driven 4×4’s as long as I have been driving and can say that the TJ Rubicon is the finest stock 4×4 I have had experience with. Of course certain modified Jeeps can out-do a stock Rubicon by a long ways, but a stock Rubicon can out perform many modified Jeeps as well. No matter which way you look at it, it is an amazing machine.
“The only fly in the soup is the low-hanging transfer case and transmission skid-plate.” And the sway bars (which severely limiting articulation). And the low hanging and very vulnerable differentials. And the very breakable air locker system.
Other than that, it DOES exceed every other “stock” 4×4 out there. WHich has been my long-running critizm about the promiscuous use of the term “off-road capability.”
I first learned the glaring limitations of my Rubie when I went on a group off-road trip with a group of mildly-built but aged CJ5s and flatfenders. The Rubie got stuck three (3!!) times before the CJ5s even had to put theirs into four wheel drive. It was embarassing. It was excrutiating.
The point is, Jeep would never sell a vehicle that would match mildly-capable and modified vehicles. They couldn’t. The legal risks of doing so would be prohibitive. Plus, most people drive their SUVs 99.9999 percent on paved roads. Nobody, except for maybe a handful, would buy a monstrocity that truly deserves the term “off-road capable.”
The Rubicon will out perform, hands down, any modified “off road capable” Jeep,,,,,,,,on a paved road.
For the record Chrysler bought Jeep in ’87. The stock 88 Grand Wagoneer I have does very well as a beach buggy and in 2′ deep snow.
I think “WhatdoIknow1” has it right.
But I couldnt help but notice that the Compass looks alot like an old Nash Metropolitan. I dont think the designers at Jeep would have expected it end up like that, but the Compass is just so darn dorky looking, it defies everything that the Jeep brand is about: brawn and might.
@whatdoIknow
“The simple fact that both Toyota and Nissan manage to successfully sell alot of relatively expensive off-road vehicles right in the same showroom as Carollas and Sentras is a clear indication that a dedicated brand for this type of product is not a viable solution.”
Sorry, but your conclusion does not necessarily follow from your premises. The easiest way to describe what you just did is to change it to something logically equivalent.
The simple fact that “2 plus 2 equals four” is a clear indication that “3 plus 1 does not”.
See what I mean?
At any rate, you make a good point that they can’t just make rock hopping trail machines and nothing else and expect to compete with car manufacturers for volume. There are companies doing just that, but they are low volume players that sell less than a thousand vehicles a year.
OTOH, they could be a company that makes good off road vehicles for the rest of the world, and for the customizers to start with, and hold on to that adventuring brand cache while selling a few other types of vehicles. The balancing act is not selling crap that destroys the cache. Once you do that, THEN you will have a hard time competing with Toyota and Nissan. However, if you maintain your brand, you don’t really have to compete, because people won’t cross shop you as much. They will want what you represent.
The Wrangler lost out when it dumped the 4.0L I6 in favor of the V6 minivan engine….
IMO, Jeep needs to return to having just three vehicles at a time. The Wrangler for it’s 4×4 off-road heritage (that I own); the Grand Cherokee as the luxury 4×4 wagon, and the Liberty/ Cherokee as the 4×4 economy wagon (that I also own). IMO, all other current Jeeps should be discontinued or if they’ll sell in today’s market, then moved to the Dodge or Chrysler brand.
I’m sure that Chrysler has been thinking that putting the Jeep brand on more vehicles will help to sell them, however they need to be more cautious of not diluting one of the most recognizable brands for their off-road capabilities and toughness. I realize that not everyone off-roads with their Jeeps, but when I drive my Wrangler, everyone knows what it is and I’m always getting thumbs up from guys that wish they owned one. I’ve never had that with any other vehicle before.
Larry P2,
I think that you and I are just going to have to disagree on this. My Rubicon has far exceeded my expectations off-road. I find it well-suited for every trail I’ve run with it in Colorado, Wyoming, and Utah. It is ideal for all but the most extreme trails. If you require more out of your Rubicon, modify it. I don’t, so I haven’t. Jeep built a performance vehicle with capabilities that stretch far past what has ever been or should ever be expected from a factory-built 4×4.
Even if modified Jeeps can top it in certain areas, my Jeep suits my need perfectly and that’s all that really matters to me.
And yet, despite all of the criticism, I STILL want a good, used TJ. Sure, it’s cramped and unrefined…kind of the point, isn’t it? I don’t want fine leather and all of that in a vehicle that I intend on driving with the top down the majority of the time. True, I wish they would have kept an eye on economy (heck, the old four cylinder really wasn’t that much more fuel efficient than the six).
Commander and Compass need to be deep-sixed. Patriot has potential as the entry-level Jeep (and as others have commented, it at least still looks like a Jeep). Liberty is questionable now, sad given it’s former status as one of the top-selling SUVs out there (I own a 2003). The Wrangler needs to get back to basics, although “poser” sales might suffer some. I have a hard time swallowing a $30k+ price tag for any Wrangler.
Of all the domestics, Jeep is the one I’ve pulled for the hardest. I hope they can trim the fat.
“Outdoosman’s lifestyle.” Sorry, I just threw up a little bit.
The “New” Jeep is NOT the vehicle of choice off-road. I see more H3’s with “mequite pinstripes” than Wranglers. And I don’t see many of those. It truly is a poor man’s Hummer.
I can afford either.
Have you ever sat in an H3? The seats feel like they’re made of vinyl. They sit about 3″ off the floor. The engine in the non-alpha models is even more anemic than the 3.8L v6 in the Jeep.
People looking at Wranglers aren’t looking for luxury. They’re looking for a fun vehicle that they can beat on a bit if they want, but in the meantime they have a 4wd convertible.
In terms of offroad capability, you could debate it all day, but in terms of fun factor, there’s a reason why when you rent a car in warm weather vacation spots, you don’t see rows and rows of Hummers.
gawdodirt,
Thanks for the imagery, and please, next time, try to make a point that makes sense. All I got out of that, other than sick to my stomach, was that you don’t like jeeps or hummers.
With the current gas price situation, problems at Jeep are expected. They really should have gone diesel a long time ago. They can still come up with a nice small (2.5L) five cylinder turbo unit with lots of torque that could be shared across the entire model range. Problem solved.
Ok. let`s see the jeep model line. Uhm, jeep patriot. A rebadge of dodge nitro, Liberty replacement. Average boring design, average quality, roundish ,blurry average fit and finish. looks rather as a cheap tuning version of mid 90ies than a 2008 model. Built on a mitsu platform.
Jeep Commander- spun off Mercedes benz platform, Boxy , average mid 80ies design, low on fit and finish, poor tolerances, poor textures for the price.Heavy guzzler. ( common, you think those 2 chrome handles on the trunk lid are going to save the design day?).
Jeep Compass- built ona Mitsu lancer platform. Cheap FWD imitating Offroader. Shoddy quality, shoody texture, subpar fit and finish.
Jeep wrangler/renegade/rubicom/unlimited/uberturbo etc.- ( the only non-import platform left)offroading capabilites, built for its direct purpose. Subpar fit and finish, rugged, primitive, average plastics, Stripped, barbarian, lacks stylistic enhancement. Rather looks as a tuning kit stamped on a Wrangler 85` than a new model.
Jeep grand Cherokee- Spun off mercedes benz platform. Average quality, doubtful fit and finish, exterior design looks rahter like avery good tuning kit of the old Grand Cherokee. it exploits the modern chiseled lines, yet doesn`t exploit the fashinable gap tolerances , material texture or gizmo screens.
Jeep- a 4 -wheeled Harley -Davidson desease symptom. Imitated manhood over pragmatic contents and common sense. jeep – a car of those who have spent most of their days in plastic offices typing on their keyboards some nerdy programs, yet on weekends they try to pick up chicks by attaching pieces of cow manure onto plastic bumper guards and spilling some pints of whiskey on rubber mats. So they remind more of wild wild west.walmarters who imitate cowboys and rugged non-shaved tribesmen once a week taking a part of the comedy or rather a drama. Sorry for those real cowboys, that i Offended. I shot this at 95% of the majority, not you.
And you are still asking why is Jeep failing?
If you don’t like a particular vehicle, that’s cool, to each his own.
Why comment on a vehicle then just start painting anyone who owns one with insults?
Everyone has their own lifestyle and ideas of fun. If a particular one doesn’t appeal to you, no need to expend so much energy hurling hate.
rpenna,
You are absolutely correct.
I have thought a lot about that, and the only conclusion I come to is insecurity. It’s the old thing about tearing others down so we feel better about ourselves.
If the Compass and Patriot are truly awful vehicles how come I see so many up them up here in Canada? Its like every time at a traffic light there is one or the other beside me or in the opposite lane.
landcrusher- it`s not about insecurity. or tearing someone apart. When doctor says you have a cancer, it`s not because he wants to hide his weaknesses or because he hides that he likes dominatrixes, it`s because his job is to set diagnosis before treatment can start. the same diagnosis Dr. Ron Paul sets for the US economy, not because he feels insecure, or hates America, because there can`t be a treatment if there is no correct diagnosis of the blunders. If I didn`t care, or hated US car corprations I wouldn`t now work on a car under Dodge badge. There are so many subpar vehicles, starting from indian Tatas and ending with Soviet Ladas. Why i don`t criticize them? because I don`t give a damn nor for those car, nor for those countries. Jeep should, and you should see in me an american patriot, who will endlessly fingerpoint to all your cancers, until you roll up your sleeves, and do that painful surgery, whether changing plastic stamping suppliers or hanging beancounters.
jurisb,
This was not about you in particular.
Your post was no worse than hundreds of others here. Also, this has nothing to do with Ron Paul. I respect Ron Paul, and agree with many of his issues. We have been down that road, and you are still not Ron Paul.
Why do you think rpenna and I would come to this site and not expect to read critiques of cars? Do you really think we are that dim?
Let me use your doctor analogy to try to explain what rpenna and I are talking about. A doctor diagnosing a cancer would be like your saying the Jeep has a cheap dash. It’s somewhat science, somewhat art, and we can have a reasoned discussion based on objective facts over it. All good.
What we are complaining about would be the doctor making a speech about how lung cancer victims lack self control and have a death wish. The whole death wish thing is just pop psychology to start with, and still not everyone with lung cancer was a smoker to start with. If you think that is far fetched then I suggest you reread your cowboy schtick. At least there IS a correlation between smoking and lung cancer. On my father’s side of the family, my cousins and I are the first men NOT to actually be cowboys. Jeeps are NOT the general choice of transportation of cowboys in my family.
The idea is that you shouldn’t make a claim about the people who own or drive a certain kind of car. Especially in a negative way. First, you really have no science to back it up. Second, it is insulting. You knew your comment about 95% of Jeep owners was possibly insulting, which is why you put in the wiggle room.
Take some advice – if it needs wiggling and an apology in advance, just leave it out to start with. Otherwise, aren’t you just openly insulting hundreds of thousands of people? They have sold a lot of Jeeps over the years, do the math.
I hope you now see the difference.
Landcrusher,
Here, here!
Thank you for that last post. It needed to be said. On this site we do make a lot of generalizations about folks who drive cars and it’s usually in good fun. For instance, Volvo 240’s are driven by liberal college professors, Toyota Priora (sp?) are driven by self-righteous enviro-geeks, and excessively large pickups are their owners’ form of compensation… the list goes on.
While there is probably a fuzzy area between good fun and the slightly offensive, TTAC’s staff and commentators are generally benevolent towards car owners. After all, car owners and drivers are the reason for the continued existence of this site. It is never enjoyable to read commentators’ rants concerning the state of mind of owners of an entire brand, especially when you are an owner of such a vehicle. While broad generalizations of urban cowboys and applied manure can be ignored, it is crossing the line to suggest that all owners of a brand are drunk drivers. TTAC stands for the truth. There are other places for sweeping inaccurate generalizations of readers.
-Ryan, whose Jeep’s rubber floor mats have never smelled of spilled whiskey or any other alcohol and fenders have only been touched by incidental Wyoming manure.
The Compass and Patriot are awesome vehicles and they’re selling fairly well. It just takes “enthusiasts” a while to come around. They’re the lowest price small SUVs on the market and they get decent fuel mileage for a car that still rides high and has a good size cargo area. It’s also the only one available with 4wd for under $20K.
Manual transmissions are available too.
Would the Compass be so objectionable if it were a Plymouth?
Landcrusher- statistics do the math, I do the poetry behind this math. Both do not contradict each other. Here I wrote a poem- it might help you to understand the way I write and why.
The foundation of a comedy is in exxageration,
When awkwardness of human actions
Is brought to near public exclamation.
A laughter cutting through the crowd at square,
The weakness at full exposure,
photographies of conscience in underwear.
The public suit of etiquette and the national face
Are thrown to dumpsters by clowns
And ripped apart in shreds in verbal disgrace.
And irony as lemon is squeezed in this feast
Your face becomes slightly swollen
from tears of hysteria stirred with jargon beast.
And comedy is a lesson from Achilles Heel
We strengthen our achievements
Forging drawbacks with ease into polished steel.
by Juris B
Jurisb,
How about I put you down on the side of “Totally Off Track,” and we just drop it.
It’s [the Jeep Compass] also the only one available with 4wd for under $20K.
Unless you count the Suzuki SX4; MSRP for AWD-equipped SX4s ranges from $15,270 (5-speed MT Base model) to $17,970 (automatic transmission and Touring package).
Were I in charge of product development at Jeep, I’d strongly consider designing something about halfway between the Suzuki Jimny and the Wrangler.