Would it be churlish of us to suggest that GM Car Czar's Volt-related pronouncement is the most unintentionally ironic statement we've ever heard? Never mind then. Anyway, in a characteristic burst of unbridled bravado optimism, Maximum Bob Lutz is declaring a major victory in his employer's efforts to kick Toyota's ass with the electric – gas hybrid Chevrolet Volt. "Today is the first day [Volt drivetrain mules are] running on the street on battery power," Maximum Bob proudly told Edmunds Auto Observer. What's more, GM's Hail-Mary-on-wheels is "reliably meeting its objectives. Even with a rough calibration, even with the wrong drive unit, the wrong body, etc. etc., it has been hitting its 40 miles on electric power." Hey, who put the wrong drive unit on this thing? Anyway, the winner of TTAC's 2008 Bob Lutz Award didn't mention the speed used to achieve this triumph, and Edmunds didn't ask (surprise!). But who's quibbling– other than us? And we're just glad Bob's back to trash-talking the press and Toyota. Bob says the Volt [test] triumph shows "the fallibility of Toyota and the American press, which is totally enamored with Toyota… When we say lithium-ion is good and Toyota says they don't trust them and they are unproven, people say we're taking a huge risk." Huh? Toyota has already announced that lithium ion cells will power the plug-in Prius as of 2010. Oh right, we forget stick to the spin. Sorry, we were too busy gazing longing at all things Toyota.
Find Reviews by Make:
Read all comments
It’s an unusual day at TTAC when the Tesla Birth Watch is discontinued and one of the most important Volt Birth Watches is issued. I’m not at all trying to say that either of these projects is a success, it’s just a strange coincidence that major successes in both appear on the same day.
On the one hand, I would love for Bob and co. to come through on the Volt. It would do a lot for our national pride.
On the other hand, I would just as soon see the demise of GM if it meant the end of the UAW and it’s degenerative effects on this country and our political environment.
Any idea how to run some numbers on the cost v. benefit analysis?
Anyone know what the plug in Prius is projected to cost? If it stays below 25k, the only limit to sales will production capacity.
I wonder if it’ll still do 40 miles at 40 below zero, having stood out all night. Driving with no heater available must be a sod!
philbailey: I wonder if it’ll still do 40 miles at 40 below zero, having stood out all night. Driving with no heater available must be a sod!
NO! In cold temperaures, the ICE engine will come on immediately to warm up the batteries.
The range issues under less than optimum circumstance is the big question, and one I am having a very difficult time getting answers to for an article. Nobody involved with EV’s will talk to me, especially after my ZAP Xebra review.
If the 40 miles on battery claim is true, it is a milestone for GM. They need to keep on acting like their future depends on what happens with the Volt, because it does. If they can pull it off and then get electric dominant hybrids out in mass, it would definitely be a boon for GM. If they can’t they are in deep doo-doo.
I’ll give up some range for instant heat on those below zero mornings. So the engine kicks in a little sooner, when it’s that cold who cares? Maybe it will have a plug in battery heater instead of a plug in block heater.
“Um, except that Toyota has already announced that Lithium Ion cells will power the plug-in Prius starting in 2010.”
-Um, except for the fact that the plug-in prius will have all of less than 10 miles all electric range.
-Um, except that Toyogurt tried its own hand at advanced lithium ion cells, a la the volt, and failed spectacularly with an overheating lithium cobalt aluminium oxide formula.
-Um, except that Toy’s blog goon Irv Miller positively declared that the kind of safe, high-energy 40mile-per-charge batteries GM was after were only “theoretical”, in what was a not-so-subtle attack on the volt hype. This was after the head honcho back in Japan said more or less the same at the tokyo motor show. Both of these gentlemen appear now to have been rather mistaken.
Senor Niedermeyer-
I’ve used RC A123 cells straight out of a -20 degree C freezer before and they’ve worked just fine. Less power than usual, but that’s gonna happen with any battery IMHO. They go down to -30C operating temp apparently. I have access to -70C, but I don’t exactly feel like destroying my battery :)
Regardless, they’re testing the volt in detroit, so it’s not something they’re going to miss an opportunity of testing.
AES: Ted’s blog posting is slightly misleading; both the regualr and plug-in Prius will use li-ion after 2010. The NiMH pack will be a temporary carry-over for the first two years of gen3 Prius production until while Panasonic gears up mass-production of li-ion cells.
I think the battery chemistry pissing matches are (hopefully) quickly becoming passe.
My statement regarding the warm-up phase in extremely cold weather comes straight from the gm-volt web site. That doesn’t mean it’s the final word.
So Bobus Maximus reckons that GM will be the come back kid in November 2010 when the revolt hits the road. you gotta admire his optimism. let’s see, how will this look:
Chevy will launch their first generation all electric/hybrid electric vehicle in the $35k + range using GM’s legendary product launch methodology.
Toyota will launch it’s 3rd generation Prius with a proven refined hybrid powertrain in the sub $25k range with over a million sales worldwide behind it having already proved itself in all weathers with all kinds of drivers and having established beyond any doubt it’s durability, longevity and reliability.
Are there enough dyed-in-the-wool GM fanboys worldwide to buy the Chevy in order to kick Toyota’s ass? Lutzy seems to think so!
Is it legal to drive the mule with those doohickies sticking out from the wheels like that?
factotum:
All us old rally boys used to do it that way, just to drive the Halda Speedpilot.
AES:
-Um, except for the fact that the plug-in prius will have all of less than 10 miles all electric range.
-Um, except that Toyogurt tried its own hand at advanced lithium ion cells, a la the volt, and failed spectacularly with an overheating lithium cobalt aluminium oxide formula.
-Um, except that Toy’s blog goon Irv Miller positively declared that the kind of safe, high-energy 40mile-per-charge batteries GM was after were only “theoretical”, in what was a not-so-subtle attack on the volt hype. This was after the head honcho back in Japan said more or less the same at the tokyo motor show. Both of these gentlemen appear now to have been rather mistaken.
Um, stopping saying um so much, it’s rather distracting.
The Plug-in Prius will have less than 10 miles range? Really? Do you have any direct proof from Toyota? If you were in-fact referring to the “less than 10 miles range” of the plug-in Prius *prototypes* (which use NiMH batteries) that have been testing for months now, then that has nothing to do with the production plug-in models coming in 2010. Toyota has already confirmed that those prototypes were a “first wave”. The “second wave” of prototypes (using Li-ion batteries) which are either testing already or about to be, are supposed to have a range of up to 30 miles.
As for li-ion battery problems, “failed spectacularly”? Really? Once again, do you have direct proof that mentions those exact words? If Toyota “failed” with li-ion batteries, why are Toyota and Panasonic both preparing for large-scale li-ion battery production in 2009?
Even IF GM delivers on all of its Volt promises (a HUGE IF) then there will STILL be the problem of the Volt’s price, which is guaranteed to be substantially more expensive than the Gen 3 Prius.
Well, since Mark Verbrugge at GM wants to test the batteries for 3-4 years there are still many questions.
Really though, what is the big deal with running a car 40 mi on electricity?
People do that with garage builds.
I have not doubted that the Volt can meet it’s performance goals. They aren’t that tough.
The real questions have been, and remain, how much $$$ and when.
The stance of Mark V. at (director of)GM Materials shows us that it can’t happen RESPONSIBLY before 2011-12. So much for when.
The price question is open but GMs estimates have continued to go up and independant scientific opinion is not encouraging.
Bunter
I think that the debate about Toyota’s hybrid vs. GM’s was aimed more at Parellel vs. Series hybrid. Toyota of course claims Parellel is the only solution and a series hybrid is stupid and impossible. I dont think anyone would really disagree that L-Ion is the future regardless of the drive system.
The plug-in Prius currently being demoed has a 13km all-electric range. That’s 8miles. What’s more, it will be for limited release to fleets only.
That said, the series-vs.parallel debate WAS the one that spawned the official Toy line that the kind of batteries GM was after were “theoretical” and that people’s shouldn’t get all excited:
http://blog.toyota.com/2007/09/hybrid-tech-par.html
From Toy’s official blog:
Yes, there was a high-profile showing of a series-hybrid prototype called the Chevrolet Volt at the Detroit auto show last January. But keep in mind that the advanced lithium-ion batteries that the Volt would use, batteries suitable for the long-term rigors of every-day automotive use, don’t exist. Indeed, several firms are working hard on perfecting them for automotive use. But for now, the 40 miles between charges that the Volt’s engineers talk about, and that have so many people fired up, are purely theoretical. In fact, when the first Volt prototype hits the road next year, its engineers say that it will be capable of no more than 10 miles between charges.
So the original TTAC post (which has since been edited I notice) was a bit off-target and skewed the context of Lutz’s comment, which were, I think, a reasonable defense of GM’s progress on the Volt.
The plug-in Prius currently being demoed has a 13km all-electric range. That’s 8miles. What’s more, it will be for limited release to fleets only.
Once again, that Prius is nothing but a prototype.
Once again, this prototype will NOT be the same as the *production* plug-in Prius we will be getting with li-ion batteries. This prototype uses NiMH batteries.