The Easton, Pennsylvania City Council is set to pass a town ordinance that would seize the cars of "johns" cruising through their town looking for prostitutes. The Morning Call reports that the new law would apply to any vehicle used ''to solicit prostitution or to engage in an act of prostitution or to solicit or engage in sexual activity.'' We're not talking about impounding (so to speak); the ordinance would allow the city to keep or sell the confiscated vehicles. Councilwoman Elinor Warner introduced the ordinance, which was last mooted a decade previous. She has no doubts that the law will scare off the mobile sex trade that's been plaguing the city for years. In an unfortunate choice of words, she claimed it would attack the demand side of the equation and ''spread the love around, and make it hard on the johns as well.'' Warner's City Council colleagues have no problem with silly little things like constitutionality. Councilman Roger Ruggles told the paper that state law already allows police to seize vehicles used in drug deals. ''I don't see much of a difference." I wonder what kind of car he drives…
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how about if you drive your date to dinner and a movie with, um, great expectations? is that solicitation? is this only for cash-only transactions? how about when your girlfriend hits you up for a hundred bucks because there are “cute” shoes “on sale?”
i love laws.
Just a publicity stunt, they never will sieze a vehicle with a bank note on it because they have to pay off the bank. They will only do it for paid off cars or cars that will eassilyfetch more at auction than the lien.
The joke’s on them! I’m gonna stick ’em with an SUV!
Take that, coppers!
Just buy an old beater to pick up your special lady friend.
I like how they use the drug war as a defense of the policy. It’s just another aggressive punishment of a consensual crime. NICKNICK, you jest, but when police have incentives like this, then you start to see them stretch the limits of the law in order to confiscate things.
I want to see if they confiscate one of the politicians cars when they get caught or will it be yet another case of “these rules were made for everyone else not us who make the rules”.
Is solicitation of sex even a felony for the John?A profession that has been around since the beginning of time and all these laws against it haven’t even put a dent in it in the last 5000 years, reminds me a lot of the war on drugs.
It’s the same thing happening all around. While I’m a Christian and abhor what’s happening in places like Canada, Colorado, California and Pennsylvania, where Christian rights are being removed in ways which more closely resemble fascist states and eastern europe under COMECON, Constitutional Rights are Constitutional Rights.
The state and their proxy enforcers, the police, have absolutely no business legally stealing property for drug busts, or this, or forcing people to sell property due to “eminent domain” any more than they have a right to pass laws which essentialy say, as in Colorado, “if you are Christian and speak out about homosexuality (or bestiality or whatever other sexual depravity) being a sin while outside the church walls, we can persecute/whoops, prosecute you and jail you up to a year – as it is ‘hate-speech’. So there, and shut up, you Christians!”
Take away my rights, and soon enough all of yours are also likely to disappear, folks.
Freedom of speech? Yeah, right. It’s being eroded, for Christians first, then for non-Christians, too.
Property rights, the right to own what you own? Yeah, right. It’s being eroded, for drug dealers and now “johns” and folks who don’t want to sell their properties, first, then for everyone else, too.
Face it, if it’s true that a people deserve the government we get, then we truly need to make some consideration of a REAL change in direction away from the two parties which are merely two sides of the same coin.
Einstein once said that “one definition of insanity is to continue to do the same thing, and expect a different outcome.”
Look at the Libertarian Party and the Constitution Party; these two American parties at least seem to try to adhere to what is left of the United States Constitution.
Without that touchstone (the Constitution), we will have – nothing.
We’re just about ready to lose it all. Think the Obamanation is going to “change” anything? Or McPain? Think again, look around you, let the scales fall off your eyes!
I don’t think we have much longer to take back our country, folks.
Legalize it and stick it somewhere remote – set up regulations and tax the crap out of the business. Men (even women) will pay whatever it takes to get off – even more than cigarettes and booze.
Most politicians are corrupt and many use these services – so time they fessed up and stop playing boy / girl scout and actually resolved problems instead of denying these happen or that “sex” is at times a need for people and they just can’t get it free all the time they need it. You’d figure if it was legal and more obtainable for the masses there may actually be a reduction in rapes and date rapes b/c the potential perpetrator could now have an outlet for their need/want legally.
The Family Values Association live in the closet and bitch and moan on high – likely many members of these associations are some of the biggest prostitution clients. Similar to that tele-evangelist in Colorado who was so vocal about the “sins” of homosexuality and ironically he was soliciting gay sex.
“or to solicit or engage in sexual activity”
So the next time I’m stuntin and flossin in Easton I could lose my ride?
Menno: Let’s get a few things straight. The anti-hate laws apply to all, not just Christians. Furthermore, true Christian spirit is inclusive, not exclusive. It appears you take a rather narrow view of Christianity, which is your privilege granted to you by virtue of being an American, however not all Christians share your view. Furthermore, this country was founded to escape Religious persecution which always seems to be conveniently forgotten.
Now as to the other aspect regarding this particular bit of news, I am in full agreement with you. The police have no business stealing property and I am sure it will be challenged in courts once it happens and will be declared unconstituional. That’s the beauty of the beast, it does strive to protect all.
Lest we forget:
Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.
or to solicit or engage in sexual activity.
Isn’t this what teenage boys do every Saturday night? Isn’t cruizing up and down the street, stereo blasting, turning around at the Dairy Queen, a normal ritual for teenagers in small towns? All thought their chances of getting lucky are slim, at its essence, that is what this activity is all about.
That’s a pretty broadly written law.
Well, RoweAS, I can say exactly this with kindness and respect back to you; You have apparently a very wide view of what Christianity includes, if you apparently think it includes what God specifically prohibits!
But let’s agree to disagree on that – it is our right both as a citizen and a child of God.
But, clearly, one of us is wrong.
It’s kind of like when my boys were young. A responsible father, I wanted to try to watch out for them – and not let them run in the street, reach up little hands and scald themselves on the kitchen stove, go try to play with a frothing-at-the-mouth doberman pincher, etc.
I guess I am always amused by folks who think that God our father would look down on us in any other light, since He is Love.
His Bible is nothing more or less the equivalent, to use a car metaphore, of a very large owner’s manual filled with warnings and cautions. Instead of it being to simply give a car a good long and useful life, it’s written to help us to live a good and long and useful life.
A loving father sometimes DOES SAY, NO – BAD! That’s harmful! No matter what, that’s harmful!
I can’t fathom why that’s so difficult to perceive for so many, not just you, brother.
Then this is a simple morality play designed to make people feel better. Moral outrage, along with fear, are always a fascinating way get away with tightening the screws.
Prostitution is a problem for several reasons (public health, abuse, exploitation, poverty, ties to the drug trade) and there’s ways to deal with that, not the least of which is ensuring that people aren’t hitting the level of poverty that would drive them to this kind of thing.
Of course, this is America, where the kind of social safety net that would keep people from getting this far and help them out if they do is barely existent. Social programs, after all, are for communists. In this part of the world, we just lock you up or let you die if you fall below the acceptable income level.
Are they seizing and selling the cars of drunk drivers? No? Are Johns’ cars somehow a safety issue? Then doesn’t this seem just a wee bit like a cash grab?
Menno: “But, clearly, one of us is wrong”
That’s exactly the kind of comment I expected. If I don’t agree with you I am clearly wrong.
Sorry RF, I don’t want this to get into a pissing contest, it’s just that it truly rubs me the wrong way when intolerance masquerades as good Christian belief.
It doesn’t matter if I think menno’s interpretation of Christianity is different from mine, I can still defend his right to free speech. As psarhjinian said, these laws are around to make people feel better because dealing with the actual problem would take too much work. I don’t agree that it’s a result of a lack of a safety net, because prostitution is not limited to our country; we just have a greater stigma.
Oh, God. Here we go.
I thought they tried this in NYC some years back and it was found unconstitutional for lack of due process. And that law wasn’t for “cruising” I think you had to be caught in the act. How are the cops going to distinguish driving down the road from cruising for hookers? Vulcan mind meld?
RoweAS, your and my opinions don’t mean beans. God’s, however, does.
So, do you have kids? Do you let them play in the pool unsupervised, maybe? Did you read my post? You can’t even say “hmm, ok he may have a point, there”?
You have every right to think what you please, as we all do – this is a right given to us not by laws, but by God. You don’t have to even believe in God to still have the rights He gives you. Much of humanity does not believe in God!
Clearly we disagree; I was only stating fact that given the black & white opinions that you and I don’t share on this matter, that one of us clearly has to be wrong. 2+2 = 4 not 2+2 = 3 and = 4 at the same time. Correctomundo?
So, let’s postulate that I’m wrong in taking what I see as God’s “owners manual for humanity” seriously and taking the warnings literally.
So, after I die, I appear before the God as you perceive him, what wrong have I done? Nothing – I hurt nobody, only did the best I could do in warning people against doing harmful things to others and themselves; I acted in love, not hate. I can’t speak for religious nuts who speak in hate; I’m not them, even though you might be confusing me with them. That’s not my fault!
So now can you imagine standing before God if I’m right? Uh oh.
Remember that Dodge commercial with the big sheriff dressed in white, in the late 1960’s? The tag line was “You in a heap o’ trouble, boy.”
So with that in mind, I can see how you hope you’re right and I’m wrong!
RoweAS: Furthermore, true Christian spirit is inclusive, not exclusive.
Actually, it’s not. Read the Bible – there’s some pretty harrowing stuff in there, in both the Old and New Testaments.
Now, as for this law – it’s not aimed at Christians, it’s aimed at those who solicit prostitutes. The goal here is to improve the downtown area and inner city neighborhoods, because, in my experience, even the most liberal person doesn’t want to live or shop in a neighborhood where prostitutes openly ply their trade on street corners.
Reviving a city is virtually impossible when this activity occurs on a regular basis, because this is the sort of stuff that keeps people (well, except for those who solicit prostitutes) in the suburbs. Generally, prostitution is not seen as a economic activity that revives an area.
Whether this will work remains to be seen…
Incidentally, in Pennsylvania all hard liqour must be purchased through a state-owned liquor store. Courts have ruled that the state can seize the vehicles of people who smuggle liquor in from out of state. So I wouldn’t hold my breath regarding a constitutional challenge…
Men (even women) will pay whatever it takes to get off – even more than cigarettes and booze.
Can’t resist an anecdote from a bio of LBJ I’m reading. When LBJ had his massive heart attack in ’55, he was taken to the hospital, where they made him stop smoking. He had one last cigarette, and he said something to the effect that “I’d rather lose my pecker” than have to quit smoking.
Menno: “But, clearly, one of us is wrong”
RoweAS: That’s exactly the kind of comment I expected. If I don’t agree with you I am clearly wrong.
If one’s opinions are all logically consistent with each other, one is either right about everything or wrong about everything.
hey i live about 3 miles from Easton, PA. parts of it are really nice…then other parts….not so much.
the ordinance would allow the city to keep or sell the confiscated vehicles
Would the reason it was confiscated show up on a Carfax report?
On topic:
This type of seizure of property can’t possibly hold up in a court of law. Of course, they’ll only target low-income “johns” who can’t defend themselves legally. America: F***, yeah!
Off topic:
Oh boy, a religious war!
menno:
Well, RoweAS, I can say exactly this with kindness and respect back to you; You have apparently a very wide view of what Christianity includes, if you apparently think it includes what God specifically prohibits!
God specifically prohibits, at certain points in the Bible: Blended textiles (do you wear a cotton-poly shirt?), castrating animals (get your cat/dog fixed?), and many other things that we do today without even thinking. The edicts that God hands down are a reflection of God’s goodness and universal moral law, applicable to the original audience of the edict and not necessarily applicable to people today. It is the spirit of the moral law that is important, not the specific application for that time and environment. When God told Noah not to castrate animals, the point was that cruelty is bad, not that castration of animals is prima facia evil.
In the Greco-Roman times in which the New Testament was written, there was a lot of sick, sadistic sexual stuff going on that was culturally acceptable. Conquering armies would forcibly sodomize the defeated armies. Men would have relations with boys. In that environment, God said, “You will not have any part of this, it’s evil and you KNOW it.”
Today we know that there are some who are born with a sexual and romantic attraction to the same sex. They can’t help it, they didn’t ask for it, and their feelings of love and affection are the same as those that others have for the opposite sex. There is no cruelty or inherent evil. Because of this, you have to ask yourself, in light of a plain understanding of universal goodness, was God really talking about Sigfried and Roy when he inspired men of ages past to write against homosexual relations?
The real central problem is one of Christians basing their entire understanding of morality and doctrine on sola scriptura, rather than the more holistic formulation of scripture, church tradition, and reason. The Bible is put in a vacuum and the mind is turned off. It’s a self-contradictory philosophy, since it was church tradition that defined what should be in the Biblical cannon to begin with. This is why I left my “Evangelical” church and became an Episcopalian.
RF, I won’t cry if you delete this whole topic, since I know you probably don’t want the site to “go there,” but I had to say my piece before the hammer came down.
Thanks.
Getting back to the topic…
What about leased vehicles? My guess is that they’ll be quietly returned without fuss.
i live 5 miles from Easton, PA. never realized there was such a big problem with prostitution. parts of the city are really nice, very old stone buildings. other parts are scummy but i suspect that in every city.
Gentlemen, as long as the debate remains civil and respectful, well, why not?
yournamehere: I visited Easton last year for a wedding reception downtown…I got the impression that the city was making an effort to fix itself up, but there were still several “struggling” neighborhoods.
I’m sure that this measure is aimed at helping those neighborhoods…I also wouldn’t be surprised that the main impetus for this has come from people who live in those neighborhoods, and are tired of prostitutes on street corners and constant traffic.
geeber:
I’m sure that this measure is aimed at helping those neighborhoods…I also wouldn’t be surprised that the main impetus for this has come from people who live in those neighborhoods, and are tired of prostitutes on street corners and constant traffic.
All too often the best of intentions lead to the worst of regulations. It seems to be a bug more endemic to the UK and western Europe, but it happens in the US too.
The well-meaning, civic-minded residents and elected officials may have inadvertently opened the door to tyrannical law enforcement who will use this as a “revenue source” just as easily as cops in the South use cash seized as “evidence” to fund their operations.
Seriously – so if I see my girlfriend walking down the sidewalk and I stop to give her a ride – I could lose my car if the powers-that-be deem the situation to look “suspicious”?
I refuse to worry about what the religious think of the laws based on their holy book b/c while I may share their ideas about many things, I don’t share their religion or their books. What their deities or books may say carries no weight with me. What good sense the religious may have to share I will welcome.
Still feel that the separation of church and state to be a very, very important concept b/c we don’t all share the same religion, same religious texts, or the same deities.
yournamehere: i live 5 miles from Easton, PA. never realized there was such a big problem with prostitution. parts of the city are really nice, very old stone buildings. other parts are scummy but i suspect that in every city.
geeber: I visited Easton last year for a wedding reception downtown…I got the impression that the city was making an effort to fix itself up, but there were still several “struggling” neighborhoods.
How ’bout some gasoline for the fire? “Scummy” parts? “Struggling” neighborhoods? Sounds like it could become another “they’re just targeting the poor black man”! Somebody call Al Sharpton!
Some one cruising for a date in Easton PA is sending out a cry for help. Don’t confiscate his car. Send him to Vegas.
geeber: Courts have ruled that the state can seize the vehicles of people who smuggle liquor in from out of state.
Robert Schwartz: Some one cruising for a date in Easton PA is sending out a cry for help. Don’t confiscate his car. Send him to Vegas.
I like your line of thought, Mr. Schwartz…but I think we can do better than that! Take the confiscated vehicles from the liquor smugglers and give one to any individual caught crusing Easton for a booty call to make sure they can make it to Vegas!