C'mon, let's face reality here. If you were a foreign automaker aspiring to sell your products in the U.S., there are a few facts that should stop you dead in your tracks. 1) North America is the world's most competitive automotive market. There's a reason The Big 2.8 are fighting for their survival and it's not because they're the only kids on the block 2) You couldn't imagine a worse time to be selling cars in the U.S. The new vehicle market is in chaos. And it's about to get worse. When Chrysler, Ford and/or GM files for C11, there will be a cataclysmic and unpredictable market upheaval. 3) If there's one car brand you don't want to bring to the U.S. it's FIAT. I know people who've never SEEN a FIAT, who weren't BORN when FIAT sold cars in the U.S., who know that the Italian brand is famous for rust, mechanical failure and parts unavailability. You'd be better off pulling a Lexus and creating an entirely new brand; that cane won't hunt. Now, The Detroit Free Press' Mark Phelan has a corner (stay in that corner and don't come out until you have a story!), in which he reports "Italy's Alfa Romeo and Fiat cars are on the verge of returning to the United States, Fiat Group CEO Sergio Marchionne told the Automotive News Europe Congress." Yes, "The Fiat Group, which owns Alfa Romeo — and the Ferrari, Maserati, Fiat, Lancia and Abarth brands — plans to relaunch Alfa in America next year and may also sell the stylish Fiat 500 subcompact here." Oh, Alfa. That's alright then. Isn't it?
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stay in that corner and don’t come out until you have a story!
The proverbial pot calling the kettle black!
I have to re-dress the balance here. FIAT are a shadow of what they used to be. Their quality and reliability is streets ahead of some German manufacturers (Cough VW cough). They have released the New FIAT Bravo with a 5 year, unlimited mile warranty. They are serious about losing the “Fix It Again, Toni” image. But they still have a way to go.
But this is where Tata will help them.
FIAT will tap Jaguar for expertise in improving their reliability, then, release FIAT’s through Jaguar and Land Rover dealerships.
Likewise, Jaguar and Land Rover will tap FIAT for expertise in building more efficient powertrains, since “small cars” are FIAT’s M.O.
This could be a very fruitful partnership.
ermm, Katie, they are gonna tap Jaguar’s improvement in reliability? That’s easy, build a car that for decades was so abymally unreliable that when an outfit whose acronym was Fix Or Repair Daily, bought them, it was a step up in reliability. Better, they should stick to their own devices. And drop dead good looks.
Flashback: I was at the NY Auto show once, back in 1990 (+/- a year), where a Citroën XM was on display. Citroën was planning a return to the US market, but the lousy economic climate back then put an end to those plans.
Ermmm Andy D, what are you talking about?
Jaguar’s relibility is up there with Lexus nowadays and far exceeds most German makes. Your problem is you have the same perception of a company from 20 years ago! Hyundai was rubbish until 10 years ago and look where they are now!
Likewise, FIAT are doing their best to shake off their “Fix It Again, Toni” image. Which is what I said in my previous post. They still have a way to go, but Jaguar can point them in the right direction.
Give me the choice of a Mercedes-Benz, Audi, BMW, Jaguar or Lexus. Jaguar would win hands down, with Lexus coming second. Jaguars are cars for people with an imagination……
Ehm, will they be changing the grilles, by any chance? The “flying vagina” front doesn’t work on the Subaru, and this couldn’t be any closer if it tried.
If they do re-enter the US market, I’ll take a Fiat 500 with the 1.3 litre turbo-diesel if the price is right. 4.2L/100 kms (56 US MPG). Not bad.
The last FIAT was sold in the U.S. so long ago that I don’t think there is the stigma amongst the general public that you might think. I know the original MINI was a worldwide icon, but in the U.S. it was a niche car at best, and was saddled with British Leyland build quality and Lucas electrics. That doesn’t seem to have hurt the new MINI any. Time heals all wounds. A properly marketed MiTo or 500 would probably do well in the U.S. if they can produce good fuel economy numbers.
NOW, if they were to move some production to the U.S. to take advantage of the weak dollar…
Well, here Fiat also were famous for rusting quick.
But their powertrains were always (and are) strong.
I told my dad when he bought the Siena in 1998. I am happy to report that the car in 350K Kms has had no problems, runs on it’s original engine, doesn’t burn oil, and is now, 10 years later, starting to rust.
They now use ED, cataphoresis, ELPO whatever you want to call it and at least in Latin America, bodies have a 5 year warranty against perforating corrosion.
This is a good moment to sell small and low consumption cars that are Fiat’s best. They are also stylish, provided they sell there Grande Punto, 500, Brava.
As the “unofficial auto historian” amongst my fellow TTAC B&Bst, I have to agree that the new car market is even more disorganized than it was in 1973-1974, during/post energy crisis I.
The last time it was this disorganized, was late 1953-1954, when Henry Ford II decided it was time to try to overtake Generous Motors, and started a price / sales war, essentially by sending un-ordered new cars to Ford, Mercury and Lincoln dealers.
GM responded in kind. Chrysler (then including DeSoto, Plymouth, Dodge, Imperial) could not – they were to weak to try. Sales were slaughtered. Quotes from “independent car company executives” like “this is the most disorganized I’ve ever seen the auto market” were written down and published. Banks backing Chrysler and “independent” auto makers panicked.
As for the others competing against new cars suddenly being sold for $50 over wholesale (in a time when there was a 33% mark-up on new cars, and the big 2 had a lock on low cost production)
Nash & Rambler – no way. Studebaker – not a chance. Kaiser – nope, killed off by early 1955. Willys automobiles – likewise – the company was only saved by the Jeep, since GM and Ford had nothing to compete against it. Packard – absolutely clobbered and it was a “perfect storm” for them having just lost their body supplier, Briggs, which sold off it’s business to Chrysler (and Chrysler was going to refuse to build Packard bodies, natch). Hudson was moribund, and only merged with Nash (and effectively died shortly thereafter) as a means of helping the new combined American Motors Corporation to cherry-pick the better dealers out of two weak dealer networks.
So how does this history lesson relate to now?
GM, Ford and Chrysler are now in the position that Chrysler and the “independents” were back 54 years ago COMBINED with the position that the big 3 were in 1973.
Only this time, the global survivors are going to be called – Toyota. Honda. Nissan (maybe). Hyundai-Kia. BMW (maybe). Porsche-Volkswagen-Audi (maybe).
The auto companies which will literally die off, wither away and become dust in the history books will absolutely be:
Chrysler
Daimler (shock! but that’s what I think – have you been in a US built ‘cedes SUV?! My wife’s Hyundai Sonata is 500% better in every possible way – though a different category of vehicle, of course).
Mitsubishi
Suzuki
(unless these two wise up and simply merge, as Nash & Hudson did, in order to attempt to survive; better still, also merge with PSA)
The auto companies which I suspect are moribund and will wither and die slowly are
General Motors (worldwide, with NA first; once NA goes, worldwide confidence in the company will plummet – along with confidence in America)
Fiat group
Companies on the fence (50/50 chance of survival over the next decade) include
PSA (Peugeot-Citroen) which is collaborating with Mitsubishi, Toyota and Ford right now in JV’s
Ford
Companies possibly too young and sophomoric to survive the market turmoil
SAIC (VW and GM’s partner in China, plus owner of several brands including MG, and “Roewe”, Ssangyong of South Korea)
Tata (the conglomerate may survive, but I’m not sure vehicle production will flourish except locally in India; their FIAT fling and Land Rover and Jaguar flings are cash-burns waiting to happen)
Mahindra (likewise, without the money-wasting flings to speed up the process, but also without the low-priced car )
FIAT will tap Jaguar for learning how to make a reliable car?
Jaguar?
Maybe I just haven’t kept up, but Jaguar was pretty awful a year or two ago. Have the really improved that much, or is there some subtle humour I’m just not getting here?
KatiePuckrik – Do you work for Jaguar PR/Marketing?
You always seem to be trying to sell us the merits of Jaguar and/or X-Types!!!
How about strength in numbers, and a wide geographic footprint, for a new Global Motors?
Ford + Peugeot-Citroen + Mitsubishi + Suzuki (very strong in India) + Mazda + BMW.
The Germans would have to swallow their pride.
Parse it down to international brands:
Ford
Mazda
Suzuki (absorbing Mitsubishi as Nissan absorbed Prince in 1967)
BMW
And “other than NA” brands (below BMW)
Citroen
Peugeot
Allow semi-autonomy three major automotive groups pairing up
Ford, Mazda (already so)
Suzuki, Peugeot/Citroen (sharing invisible mass production bits with Ford, Mazda only where it makes sense)
BMW
Dumping the Lincoln and Mercury brand in NA. And selling off Volvo to – whomever wants it. (Not large enough or geographically placed well enough to be beneficial to the overall health of the company).
gcorley
In the same way you lot keep banging on about Pontiacs, Cadillacs and Chevrolets! Everyone else has their favourite make or model. I have to listen to you lot banging on about cars I don’t like, why can’t people listen to my choice of car without a sarky comment about “working for a PR department”?
I just keep hearing a lot of rubbish spoken about Jaguars by people who don’t give them a chance. I’ve lost count the amount of reliability surveys I’ve read where Jaguar has beaten the likes of Audi, Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Volvo and yet Jaguar doesn’t get the respect it deserves.
I suppose Americans are fearful than the British can make a car BETTER than the Americans, Germans or Japanese, so they automatically rubbish it without giving it a fair chance.
Even the XF, people are finding fault with it, despite it being a world class car.
@Katie
FIAT will tap Jaguar for expertise in improving their reliability, then, release FIAT’s through Jaguar and Land Rover dealerships.
Wow, what a plan.
Seriously, Polish made Fiats seem to be really reliable now. The Panda is right at the top of reliability surveys for it’s class in Germany, in front of all the Japanese cubcompacts. The 500 is made in the same factory, so it shpuld be as good.
Even the XF, people are finding fault with it, despite it being a world class car.
Is there such a thing as a faultless car? Seriously, compromises have to be made somewhere. I’d like a compact, sub-2000-lbs convertible with a big trunk, a good Hi-Fi and superb handling and better-than-50-mpg performance.
I still don’t see how this can’t work for them, maybe it’s the fact I want another Alfa. Younger buyers don’t have a clue about past reliability issues, plus it’s been decades, Hyundai didn’t have to pull out and fixed their image, why can’t Fiat. IF they follow BMW’s model for bringing MINI here I see this being very successful. Pick a handful of the most efficient and fun to drive Alfa’s and Fiat’s that the US market would like and and start sales slowly out of existing Ferrari/Maserati dealers with a small dedicated service bay. The cars will sell even if it’s a small market at first.
offroadinfrontier they have had those grills since the 50’s it’s pretty ingrained in the Alfa styling and it’s actually done right.
People forget that it wasn’t just absymal reliability that drove Fiat from the American market. The dealer network was weak, and parts availability was a big problem.
I’m less worried about the reliability of new Fiats than the parent company’s commitment to setting up a well-trained dealer network that is stocked with necessary parts. That isn’t cheap, and I wonder if the parent firm has the money to do it properly.
Menno,
Nash survived the “Ford Blitz” in better shape than its fellow independents. Nash was much better run than the other independents, and there was no real competition for the Nash Rambler.
One reason Chrysler was hurt was because its franchise agreements with dealers specifically said that it would only ship cars to dealers upon order. Once sales started slipping, dealers stopped ordering cars, and Chrysler couldn’t take Ford’s route and simply ship unordered cars and tell the dealers to “sell them, no matter what.”
Chrysler also shot itself in the foot by delaying the introduction of a true automatic transmission (K.T. Keller felt that cars needed to have a clutch for better “control”) and rolling out 1953 Plymouths with dumpy looks at a time when Ford was upping the ante with its attractive look unveiled for 1952.
FIAT will tap Jaguar for expertise in improving their reliability
Will that be kind of like blind leadng the blind?
Mind u Jag & Landie has mproved quite a bit in the last decade. The jags during 70’s & 80s is kind of a status symbol that only need to be Garage queens or flat deck paegent.
I could care less about markets, brands, and all the other blah blah blah that’s going on in this segment today. I just keep looking at that drop-dead gorgeous Alfa 8C and drooling all over myself. Is that not the most beautiful car being built today or what?
Those morons in Maranello are getting a lesson in doing it right. Imagine if they would stop trying so hard and actually make something this simple and refined?
I’m in lust I tellyou… LUST!
–chuck
http://chuck.goolsbee.org
Give me the choice of a Mercedes-Benz, Audi, BMW, Jaguar or Lexus. Jaguar would win hands down, with Lexus coming second. Jaguars are cars for people with an imagination
The new XF had been sellng well here in Canada. Not sure if its a flash n the pan , just like the one hit wonder artist.
heard terror stories about back in the Leyland days, all the parts were given top prorties to production line. So f you’re a proud owner stuck somewhere waiting for parts, God help you.
Coming from Old Blighty was not fast already by boat. So they are annoying the users to no end.
Maybe Ford is fnally doing her right by now, and handed her to Tata.
Panda 100HP please!
Car companies reputations are very very slow to change. You don’t get rid of 20-30 years of mediocrity by being good for 10. When 20000+ bucks is on the line, most people don’t feel like giving a company a 2nd chance. This ain’t Coke vs. Pepsi.
@ menno How on Earth can you lump together Fiat and GM and say both will die?
Ummm one is profitable and growing, has a strong presence in Europe and South America, a small but growing position in Asia (China, India, Middle East), has all the right cars for the moment, are beating and exceeding Japanese and German makes in reliability, are #1 in the fast growing market in the world both this year and last (tip, it’s not China).
The other is receding in Europe, North and South America, and apparently growing in China (not all of Asia), is stuck with monster SUV and trucks, is still complaining about percepetion gaps but not really doing much about it (unlike Ford).
How are the two positions even remotely similar?
You may not like Fiat, but wake up and smell the coffee. They have cacet in a lot of markets. This brand is not at all your grandpa’s Fiat any more.
And Mr. Farago, I beg to differ. I think Fiat do have a chance in NA, specially as the makers of small, stylish, Euro drives, that last forevere and are ever fun to drive. Who can beat that? VW? Don’t make me laugh.
I would normally say no way in hell can Fiat (even Polish-made) make it in the US, but the suicidal refusal to make fuel efficient cars on the part of the D2.8 can help Fiat establish themselves initially. Then, if their quality has really improved as much as some believe, it could be a new “Hyundai miracle”. I am not exactly betting on it just yet, but more competition won’t hurt.
Again I want to thank you guys for the great histories. I never knew about Ford’s dumping cars on their dealers back in 1953.
Since the US market is in turmoil this seems like a good time to quietly enter the market with some new brands and ideas.
Once we get rid of GM and its money hole in our economy and redistribute the money tied up our economy should take off.
And why do we need car dealers? I can remember when TV’s first came out and we expected and assumed that a repair technician would come to our homes and replace a few vacume tubes 2 or 3 times a year. Now we buy a TV, keep it with no problems for 10 years, and then dispose of it because we want a new one with more features.
Cars still aren’t quite as reliable as our televisions but they are close and maybe we should be expecting to go to Best Buy to buy our new Fiat Panda.
The auto dealers with their contracts are now a big problem to the manufactures who may want to adjust what they sell and I hate most car salesman. I bought my last car after finding a dealer who didn’t double team me or talk to me like an idiot and it took a while to find such a dealer.
What happened to GM FIAT’s matrmonial turns sour few yrs ago. Apparently GM has to pay her handsomely on the divorce.
Perhaps FIAT should try a small state at a time.
Arnold’s land ( Carlyfornia) would have been ideal not-with-standing the super tight emission law.
Pretty soon beans cannot be sold for human consumption too. And thats going to eliminate Chilli on Wendy’s menu.
GM had to pay FIAT to get rid of the stake. Five years ago it was less than worthless. It was a mini-GM with GM type problems. Today FIAT is highly profitable and probably worth more than GM. It’s a good story of what can be done by exceptional management albeit in a good market.
I’ll take a Panda or 500 thanks… At least until somebody makes a good EV I can afford.
As someone who has experienced Italian car ownership first hand (a love/hate relationship if there ever was one), this would be disastrous! Sexy sports cars and high-end luxury models are one thing- their high prices make low volume sales profitable and they’re rarely used as “daily drivers”. But drivers weaned on Hondas and Toyotas lack the patience, and willingness, to deal with the “eccentricities” endemic to the average Italian car.
I bought a 1995 Alfa Romeo 164 Quadrifoglio in 2003 for a steal ($2k under the KBB trade-in value at the time). It had 85k miles at the time and I very wisely held on to my ’92 Accord EX just to be safe. The look and smell of the Italian leather and the dead-sexy growl of the 3.0L V6 was intoxicating. I very quickly discovered that an Italian car isn’t an Italian car if something isn’t broken all the time…it’s just a question of HOW MANY things need fixing and the severity of each. Over time, it was amazing how non-chalant I became over things such as door panels randomly falling off or failure of literally every power accessory at some point.
The cam seal blew out in 2005 at 110k and, before I could swerve onto the shoulder and kill the engine- the engine killed itself. An ’06 Mazda3 Grand Touring has proven much, much easier to live with…and almost as charming. =)
Forgot to mention this…
I don’t speak Italian, but after a while I decided it was time to learn at least a bit. Amongst far more colorful and occasionally blasphemous expletives, my first response to most problems is to blurt out, “For the love of God!”
In the Alfa, that translated to “Per l’amor de Dio!” on a daily basis….I still use it at times just to confuse people. =) Maybe if and when I have issues with my Mazda, I’ll learn to say it in Japanese?