In case you missed it, a GM test engineer named Jim Mero just poppped off a 7:26.4 lap of the famed Nurburgring. This is just weeks after Nissan's GT-R ran the 'Ring in 7:29. What's significant about the ZR1's run: the Chevy did it quicker than the real record holder for production cars, the Pagani Zonda F (7:27). But don't despair– Nissan will soon have a GT-R Spec V with more power and carbon fiber (i.e. faster and lighter) to (probably) dethrone the fastest ever Chevy. And Honda's going to make a push with their new NSX. And Porsche's refreshed 911 Turbo might beat the ZR1. You know Lexus' LF-A will. And my question is: So? Who cares? What difference does it make if car A can go around a stretch of German road faster than car B? Right? But, there's always another hand. The Nurburgring Norschleife is favored by companies looking to tune road cars; the 'Ring offers nearly all possible road condition in one (kinda) convenient seven-mile stretch. Also, the track is in fact open to the public– which makes it much somehow more interesting. I mean, imagine you're hot lapping a billion dollar test mule, you come upon Bergwerk, heel and toe to slow yourself and suddenly come upon some jackass in a GTI having the joyride of his life. How cool is that? Or is it?
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I don’t care so much about absolute lap times — they rarely translate directly into good times elsewhere. The good thing is that it’s causing GM to build cars that don’t utterly suck at handling.
There’s a corollary though — I live near a bunch of very twisty roads, and I was obsessed with modifying my car to take them at speed. In retrospect, that was rather dumb. My car is stiff and noisy, and is nearly unbearable to be in for more than an hour at a time on the freeway. Same thing with the carmakers — there has to be a balance between handling and comfort, or else we’d be driving stripped out racers everywhere.
Certainly more so than the published 0-60 or quarter-mile numbers. The ‘Ring number shows a more complete performance picture of a car, from sheer power to handling, balance.
there has to be a balance between handling and comfort, or else we’d be driving stripped out racers everywhere.
What’s wrong with that?
Only if they calculate fuel mileage on said ‘Ring run.
I think it’s the most relevant and well known measure of a car’s true performance capabilities. It literally tests, over and over, every single part of a car’s abilities. Really amazing track.
If you’re worried about mileage, you probably shouldn’t be looking at ‘ring tested rides.
I did until every manufacture thought they should publicise that they tune their car from that track. However, it does offer a common ground for everyone to test their cars. But, as with any test, the parameters are always a bit different: weather, driver, track, traffic, etc…
The ‘Ring is definitely a fun time, my dad and I brought his (then-new) 98 MB AMG E50 while on a European Delivery tour. I didn’t drive, but it was still a fun experience. Only time that car has truly been put through it’s paces and it showed what the limits of the car can be (and that is probably deeper than the driver at the time).
I love the Nurburgring. It’s my favorite track in both Forza 2 and Gran Turismo4, mostly because it’s always challenging due to the sheer volume of turns. I consider the ‘Ring a gearhead’s Mecca, and it’s my dream to take a 911 (any 911) around it.
That said, the whole lap time competition is becoming absurd. There are simply too many variables that can change the lap time, the driver being the glaring difference.
I just want the Caparo T1 to set a sub-7-minute time to put an end to it.
there has to be a balance between handling and comfort, or else we’d be driving stripped out racers everywhere.
What’s wrong with that?
It’s my only car, and having your bones turned to jelly gets old pretty quick. Plus, to paraphrase the great Clarkson, imagine having to explain to your date why riding in your car is like being stuck in a clothes dryer.
(And I’ve tried, believe me. She said, oh? Sounds fun! Poor girl had no idea what she was in for. I pulled over halfway down Tuna Canyon and pushed her out just before she hurled.)
An admirable feat for a working stiff to be sure. Tells you what that thing might be able to do with a pro shoe in it.
Datsun GT what? Bring it on!!
@davey49: Only if they calculate fuel mileage on said ‘Ring run.
WTF? This is speed and handling and the driver. NOT about …….gas milage.
Oh please. We all know that this is about ‘mine is bigger that yours’ so that the manufacturers can use it in their commercials. In turn the buyers (most who will probably not crack 70mph) will have something to talk about at the weekend barbecue get together.
My GF works for a guy who bought a ZO6 a few years back. I came in to pick her up (shortly after LeMans) and said to the guy ‘nice win for the Corvette team’. Met with a blank stare. Traded it in on a Caddy when someone told him Corvettes are for guys with an ‘image problem’.
And BC:
I’m with ya. Did it to my Corvette. Love it around home, drove it 340 miles. Where was my brain?
Like with most pissing contests, not really.
No.
Yea, because it’s a gauge on how good some companies are at engineering. I’d care more about testing of durability and stuff though, like how cold the A/C can get the cabin for how long while going 140 mph for 5 hours straight in Death Valley!
yep, i find nurburgring times interesting.
I wish they’d clean it up & run some F1 cars there @ top speed!
I care about it, but I don’t care for it. It’s a ****ing horribly difficult drive. It’s like learning Basque: it has too little connection to normal life. Track days are fine but the ‘ring is like one of those black pistes you ski down not for pleasure, but only to prove that you can, and you basically hope you will get through without injury.
Yes the Ring time is a legitimate figure for performance cars. Maybe the over-hyping of these numbers is a little wearisome, but the Ring reveals the strengths of the car as a whole instead of just a fixation on tope speed, HP, acceleration, etc. Those figures are far less interesting nowadays.
I say do it for every car, (minivans included,) but as someone already suggested, it would be cool to see the MPG on the run as well. It would certainly serve to highlight the importance of weight, since light cars would turn in low times and decent (relative) mileage.
I think the fact that we’re not talking about how fast cars lap Suzuka or Spa says it all. Ring times may be subjective, but they’re still an international benchmark. Period.
No – it’s just another statistic that people with too little driving skill and enough money can brag about. It also won’t last long.
It’s only a matter of time until a test driver or engineer will have a fatal crash trying to best the ‘ring time of a rival manufacturer. After that most car companies will disassociate themselves with hot ring laps.
I care about it only in so far as my desire to drive on it.
Ive only seen clips of guys lapping the course. I know that I dont have the skill to do the thing justice, but I wouldn’t mind riding shotgun with that blonde lady who drives the taxi
Having driven it for real–not electronically–I can tell Jonny it’s a lot longer than seven miles.
Funny, I was earlier today involved in an e-mail discussion about ACM (air-combat maneuvering, the three-dimensional equivalent of driving the Nurburgring) with a very opinionated and initially knowledgeable person–he knew all the numbers–who, it ultimately turned out, had never flown a real airplane, much less a fighter aircraft, in his life.
He plays flight-sim games of great complexity, while I fly actual airplanes, full-size, with real engines, actual stick forces and G loadings, that make you sweat and get a headache and feel like scheiss after rat-racing.
So tell me again about “driving” the Nurburgring?
Oh, as as for whether or not I care about the ‘Ring, it has at least become a useful metric for the comparison of high-performance cars, thanks to the recent widespread fascination with it–probably generally attributable to Cadillac, which originally took the CTS there and greatly widened what had been a European concept.
Remember when we used to argue whether the Pontiac GTO was better than the Ferrari GTO? Wouldn’t happen today.
You wrote: “But don’t despair– Nissan will soon have a GT-R Spec V with more power and carbon fiber…”
Why would I despair!!!!! I’m proud to see an American car hold the record!
There are simply too many variables that can change the lap time, the driver being the glaring difference.
Just have Sabine Schmitz do all the driving, then.
Robstar: Last year Nick Heidfeld did 8:34 on the Nordschleife in an F1 car, but he only had three laps.
Just have Sabine Schmitz do all the driving, then.
I would be totally behind that. This is one reason why I actually consider the Top Gear Power Lap times to hold more weight than Nurburgring times. While the Top Gear track is completely flat, at least it’s more scientific than random drivers going around the ‘Ring.
It’s bench racing at it’s best but if I had the $$$$$ to buy a $$$$ car and were comparing cars A, B & C. Which car had the fastest ‘ring lap time would rank #103 on a list of 25. BTW: the donut selection at the $tealership service department is #25.
Am fortunate to have driven 5 laps of the Nürburgring in a E36 328i plus a passenger lap in Cayman S. The owner of the Cayman modified the suspension but it was slower then stock so modified was removed until he could come up with Plan B.
I was a little apprehensive that the ‘ring would not be all it is cracked up to be but 5 seconds of looking at Pflanzgarten was all it took to put that notion to bed. As I get over the rush of seeing the Nürburgring for the first time the Ring Mini came flying thru Pflanzgarten with its tires squealing almost as loudly as its B16A1 engine was screaming, awesome. It is impossible to over sell the ‘ring, do not pass up the opportunity to visit the ring, you will not be disappointed.
Thousands of laps in GT4 prepared me not getting lost but it doesn’t prepare one for the bumps or elevation changes.
It’s 11.7 miles from Bridge to Gantry which are the landmarks the littles use to time their laps during touristenfahrten. My best lap was 9:50 while Sabine can do 10:08 in a Transit van.
Youtube lap of a busy day.
Youtube lap of Kurosawa driving 2000 Prototype. 7:45 BTG
A Canadian who shipped his 997 GT3RS to Germany to drive it on the ‘ring.
Stephen,
My bad
13-miles
I absolutely care about ‘Ring times.
I think comparing the Ring times of the Lexus LF-whatever, the BMW M-whatever, and the Ferrari F-whatever is more meaningful than watching Ferrari, BMW, and Toyota duke it out in Formula 1.
It’s not the Green Hell itself that I care about. I just like having some kind of common basis for comparison.
I mean, hell, without ‘Ring times I would have to rely solely on Top Gear Power Laps to gauge cars’ relative performance!
No, I don’t care about the stupid ‘ring, and I’m really sick of hearing about it. If every car maker in the world is going to tune their products around one stretch of road in Germany, we’re all going to end up with pretty pointless vehicles. Test them on the pot-marked roads of Detroit, or the bump-to-bumper in Austin, anywhere where people actually might drive a car someday.
The track time is no more relavant to the value of a car than the 0-60 time in the quarter mile. This is mainly because the track time is all that gets reported by the auto press – including this site. Manufacturers know this and build cars thier cars accordingly. Little is published on how the vehicle faired on the different elements of the course. The only thing which differentiates it from any other testing facility is that it’s open to the public – which is a great idea.
I propose manufacturers get together and agree on a pool of tracks to be time lapped by their cars. Changes to the car wouldn’t be allowed from one track to the other.
It could be something like:
The Ring
Laguna Seca
Suzuka
Polpo> I know about nick heidfeld driving it, but the car was restricted, the car was raised, etc etc.
black pistes you ski down not for pleasure, but only to prove that you can, and you basically hope you will get through without injury….
A truer statement was never made…but what a rush!!
As for the track times, it is devolving into a pissing match, but they do have value in terms of designing a good suspension. Besides, advertisers needed something new to take the place of “torsional rigidity”, Cd’s, etc. Certainly the 0-60 figure is out, at least for bread and butter appliances…MPG’s are back, though…love the never ending cycle of history..
I don’t care about it.
I’d like to drive it someday. But really, I prefer ring times as a measurement more than silly 0-60 acceleration numbers or 1320 times.
losgatosCa- It’s 99% driver. If John Heinricy or Manuel Reuter take my Saturn out on the track they’ll get a great time. If I do it, not so much.
Robstar- F1? I guess if you like seeing drivers getting killed.
No.
It is a measure of the cars handling, acceleration, brakes, and suspension. I can’t think of a better benchmark for a performance automobile. Unless they had a db meter in car while recording fuel mileage.
I buy my cars for two purposes
A) To enjoy them on public roads at slightly extra-legal speeds, while looking fabulous when I want to cruise through town.
B) To race at sanctioned road courses and tight autocrosses.
Neither of these comes close to the Nurburgring, so I really don’t give a crap about it.