That's what The Star-Ledger columnist Bob Braun (via nj.com) concluded when he drove the same 55-mile route two times: once keeping pace with traffic, and once at just above the 65-mph speed limit. If you've driven on the highway anywhere lately, I don't need to tell you the outcome (but I will anyway). Keeping pace with traffic, Braun drove 80 – 85 mph and had no cause for concern. Driving 68 mph, he was passed by almost everyone, tailgated and found himself in dangerous situations more than once. He quotes Charles Lave, University of California at Irvine economist: "I find that there is no statistically discernible relationship between the fatality rate and average speed, though there is a strong relationship to speed variance. Variance kills, not speed." Perhaps the lawmakers need to be reminded of this fact as they consider lowering speed limits in the name of saving fuel. (An aside: does that mean the more fuel-efficient a car is, the faster it'll be allowed to go?) If our elected representatives are stupid enough to drop the national speed limit back to the double nickel, accident rates will go up as the variance between those who want to get there in a reasonable time and those who drive the speed limit increases. It makes more sense to raise the speed limit for safety's sake. As Braun points out, "if everyone uniformly sped, or, if everyone obeyed the limits, then we'd be safer." And you know the majority aren't going to obey the limits.
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To be completely fair, though, 99% of the stories about how bad it is if you obey the speed limit are complete bullshit. Every city in the country apparently has average speeds of 85 on their urban interstates, if you believe what people claim, yet when you actually drive, it’s rarely quite that fast.
It appears that columnist Bob Braun is a lot brighter than some of the elected officials.
The world needs better (and less) politicians not more speed limits…
How do you drive at 68 MPG?
I find it’s true at lower speeds, i.e., try going 38 in a 35. People are up your butt, blowing by at 45, etc.
And if speed VARIANCE kills I wish someone would tell the state of Ohio to eliminate this Speed Limit 65/Trucks 55 b.s.
John
I want to see well formulated and documented data supporitng the idea tha speed variance is the cause of accidents. I don’t buy the idea, and having logged a few thousand miles on the Autobahn, I can personally attest that spedd variance there is extreme by USA standares, and yet their deaths per miles traveled is on par with US interstates.
Some Georgia students put together a film a couple years ago where they traveled 5 abreast on the notoriously bad Atlanta loop road, all going the speed limit. Modestly entertaining, very dangerous, but makes a nice point. Only a few minutes long.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5366552067462745475
M1EK Says:
To be completely fair, though, 99% of the stories about how bad it is if you obey the speed limit are complete bullshit. Every city in the country apparently has average speeds of 85 on their urban interstates, if you believe what people claim, yet when you actually drive, it’s rarely quite that fast.
Amen!
This article reminded me of Orlando, where the interstate radar cop sometimes dresses in costume. Think clowns, Easter bunny, Santa Clause, and Elves. One time, he hid in an old refrigerator box on the side of the freeway.
No, you don’t have Santa Clause chasing you…he calls a uniformed cop, one of ten or so waiting down the road on a bike, and that’s how they get ya.
If you think that’s unfairly tricky, they usually post signs, “Caution: Speed enforcement zone ahead”, or something like that, so there’s really no big shock.
If a driver is in the right lane on a multi lane freeway, their expectation should be that they are to passed by all traffic to their left. whether one believes in “keep right except to pass” or “slower traffic keep right” that is the case.
M1EK: To be completely fair, though, 99% of the stories about how bad it is if you obey the speed limit are complete bullshit.
And to be even more fair, 100 percent of the studies “proving” that speed kills, or that lowering speed limits will improve safety, are complete bull—.
M1EK: Every city in the country apparently has average speeds of 85 on their urban interstates, if you believe what people claim, yet when you actually drive, it’s rarely quite that fast.
He was on the New Jersey Turnpike, which is “urban” in name only in most places. It’s a multi-lane (three lanes on each side in most places) limited-access highway that was specifically designed to bypass most urban areas. And, yes, speeds hit 85 mph quite often there.
Plus, proponents of lower speed limits don’t say that they should only be lowered on urban highways. They want them lowered across the board. The Pennsylvania Turnpike, for example, skirts both the outer suburbs of Philadelphia and Pittsburgh. The speed limit is aleady lower in those areas (55 mph, which means most people drive about 70 mph). The rural stretches are set at 65 mph, and most people drive at 75 mph.
Here in Pennsylvania, traffic flows at 75 mph on most limited access highways and the roads are safe. The minimum speed on most limited access highways is 75 mph.
Informed drivers understand this.
But that doesn’t stop the Chicken Littles and “speed kills” hysterics from advocating an across-the-board reduction in the speed limit to 55 mph on ALL of the state’s interstate highways.
austinseven
How do you drive at 68 MPG?
Ever hear of hypermiling?
But nevertheless, that one should have been 68 MPH. Text corrected.
Quick story…
Taking my wife’s and my lives into our own hands yesterday afternoon, we took a little ride down I-95 South in Connecticut, from East Lyme to the Hammonassett Connector. About 20 miles or so.
Two lanes of heavy traffic moved along at 75-80 MPH or so until someone saw the state trooper sitting on the side of the road and slammed on their brakes, causing a huge stack up. No accident, but it was close. I had to threshold brake like this from the traffic speed of 75-80 down to 45-50 (significantly under the limit) three different times in the 20 or so miles I was on 95.
I’m glad I drive that road less than once a year.
Has anyone here tried to drive in South Florida? People there will tailgate you like there’s no tomorrow.
“Of course! And this is why we need speed cameras and million-dollars taxes fines for the infractions! So nobody will speed, ever, ever again! Because speed kills! 55! Stay alive!”
Seriously, that billboard was just begging for a “creative embellishment.” How about the following as an answer to the question?
“My excuse is sound, officer, and I resent the implication by your question that it’s not. Out of respect for common sense, I obey speed limits in school zones and residential areas. And the same common sense tells me your speed limits on freeways and other thruways are bullsh!t, buffeted by the dumb masses who believe your tripe and designed only to milk me of my hard-earned money. Yes, I work hard for my money. Oh, and I try to avoid donuts — except when I’m attending track day and making them with my vehicle’s rear wheels.”
About a week ago I drove from Calgary, Alberta to Cambridge, Ontario and took a route through: Montana, North Dakota, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan. I drove secondary roads, highways and interstate. I would say average speed throughout was between 70-80mph. Even in congested corridors like between Minneapolis and Chicago the speed held around 70 (each of us with less than a car length between us at certain points).
Posted limits ranged from 75-40.
The worst points for aggressive driving were the major cities. Aggressive being lots of unnecessary lane changes, passing on the right, lots of speeding, heavy braking, and speeding again.
For a nation that seems to have had a collective shitfit over the price of gas (still cheap by Canadian standards) people sure like to burn it at a good clip (no pun intended).
Maybe instead of trading in gas hogs, people might want to see how much gas they could save by changing their driving habits.
Nah, that would imply a level of personal responsibility…
If “It makes more sense to raise the speed limit for safety’s sake“, yet “And you know the majority aren’t going to obey the limits“, how would raising the speed limit solve anything.
Back when the speed limit was the double nickel, people went 10-15mph faster, today where the speed limit is 65mph on many highways, people still travel 10-15mph faster.
If the limit was changed to 75mph or 85mph, would people suddenly start obeying the law? Most likely they would continue to speed, to get where they’re going faster.
At my previous job, I travelled 50 miles each way, mostly highway with some traffic. When I started, I travelled at 80mph, then changed to the speed limit (65mph) to improve MPG’s, and it cost me all of 2 minutes.
ttacgreg,
Speed variance is an issue in the U.S. because we in general lack lane discipline. Instead of leaving the left lane open for passing, drivers travel in “whichever lane damn lane I feel like driving in because it is my right…” then zone out. This causes faster, usually less patient drivers to pass using whichever lane (including the breakdown lane in some cases) to get around slower traffic. It is this unpredicablility that causes problems.
CSJohnston, who’s “shitfitting”? The media or the nation? If they’re gonna drive fast and burn more oil doing it, all day long somone can say it’s a waste. And all day long someone can tell them to be more responsible. But what happens is that the government recognizes the deap-seated need people have to feel justified, and uses this psychology against us all. Voila! We have a nanny state. Not a good thing, friend.
This sounds overly simplistic, but the addition of an instant/average MPG readout in cars would make a huge difference in consumption, I believe. You can preach the physics of slowing down to people all day, but I think most people write it off as academic rather than practical.
Not a tank goes by where I don’t aim for a certain mpg in my car (which I never did before having such a readout). Every modern ECU measures this and is capable of showing it to the driver for very modest cost of the LCD screen and some cables. But it’s still considered a “premium” feature in most brands. Silly.
There’s always the ScanGauge II or something like that, but that requires people shelling out $150+.
Hey Brent,
Hate to break it to you but the media still has tremendous influence on how people perceive the world around them and that includes the perception that gas prices are high.
Case in point. Calgary is Canada’s oil capital. We have an unemployment rate of 3%, we have the lowest personal taxes in the nation, our home values are high, crime, while higher of late, is still not bad and things are, generally-speaking f’n great. Locals however, are concerned that the economy is heading for recession, things are too expensive, the city is “not like it was” and yes, gas prices are too high. Why? because the media tells us so and we fail to look at the facts versus the perception of them.
You want to drive fast? Go right ahead. You want to do 80 mph in a vehicle that gets 9 mpg at that speed? Be my guest.
When the time comes to fill the tank, before you blame the car companies for building big, gas thirsty products, before you blame OPEC for not pumping more oil, before you blame commodity markets for driving the price/bbl through the roof, take stock of how you (not you personally but you as the individual) affect the price of fuel.
That is not collectivism (I am a libertarian at heart) that is how the individual good can positively impact the good of the group. What’s wrong with that?
Depending on the car, you can get very good mileage at high speed. I drove a Prius from Tampa to Orlando at 70+ mph and got 50 mpg (Florida is flat). I also got excellent (30+ mpg) mileage driving a ’89 Honda Prelude from New York state to Florida, going 70+ most of the way. All you need is a car with good aerodynamics.
Honestly, what we need in the US is better driver training rather than anything else. Better lane discipline, and just better everything, would help a huge amount. The traffic laws that need to be enforced most are not (in general) the ones that have to do with speeding.
We need a better system to sort good drivers from bad and either improve the bad drivers or get them not to drive.
I also like hanging out at 75mph on the bike. I get mid 40’s or so. at 65mph I get about 48mpg.
I really do believe that driving the limit or under encourages crashes becuase people who speed 10+ or more don’t pay attention to wtf they are doing.
Adamatari
You can definitely do well in certain cars at 70mph, no doubt about it. But I will bet everything I own that those same vehicles will do appreciably better at 60mph. And probably even better at 50mph, but then it starts to depend a lot on gearing, too.
The bottom line is you can’t change physics, and even aerodynamic cars have a point of diminishing returns–usually around 60mph or so. Wind resistance is the only drag factor that increases exponentially in every vehicle, no exceptions.
CSJ,
Most Americans have been well trained to divorce actions from results. They have no idea that their driving habits will cause them to burn more fuel, and even if they get it, they likely blame it on the manufacturer or the government.
The latter being partially true since the government lied to them about giving them a free education.
Calgary is a great place, but if they don’t stop overmanaging the land supply, they WILL have a recession. Eventually, employers will realize that the holding costs of real estate (which is a “tax” of sorts since that market is controlled by the government) is higher than paying the taxes in other parts of the country.
1. Bob Braun is the consumate liberal and I wouldn’t be surprised is his ulterior motive is to lower the speed limit.
2. NJ law is keep right, pass left. If he only passed one driver, as he claimed then he should have gotten in the slow lane. You do not have a right to drive the speed limit in the fast lane if you are blocking traffic.
3. He was using his cruise control. Bad thing to do on a crowded highway like the NJ Turnpike. (BTW, the if you get an idiot in front on you with adaptive cruise control you will ask yourself why the guy in front of you is riding their brakes)
4. ash78, those Georgia students should be arrested for their “rolling roadblock”. They are self-rightous punks who are lucky a frustrated motorist didn’t shoot them.
I think there is a pretty scientific way to set speed limits. The 85-th percentile rule. It’s calculated by determining what speed people would normal drive on a certain road (regardless of speed limit) and set the limit at the 85 percentile. This has been proven to reduce accidents.
The posted limits are almost always set well below this though. For example, the straight, flat Ohio turnpike has a posted limit of 65. The 85th percentile speed is 78-79 mph.
Landcrusher,
Calgary has been a boom/bust town since its inception. A recession is inevitable as we live in a one-horse (oil/gas) town.
As for land management are you talking about City of Calgary land controls? I have clients extremely frustrated by how land is parcelled in the city too. And yes, our municipal government is always finding new ways to generate revenue and new dumbass ways of spending it.
In response to the gentleman who mentioned the extreme speed variances on the autobahn,you are absolutely right. The reason why the accident/fatality rate is lower is because German drivers tend to practice lane discipline much more often. The dangerous bane of existence on the American freeway is now and always has been the ‘left-lane bandit’. It doesn’t matter if the speed limit is 55 or 85 this brand of idiot will always be found in the passing lane going at least five mph below that limit, causing every one around him/her to have to stomp on their brakes, swerve to pass in the right lane, or both, causing most accidents and traffic jams on highways.
joe_thousandaire,
We have a really interesting species of bandit in Houston. The city bus.
They get in the passing lane as soon as they can, and they will cut you off to get there. Then they either drive the limit, causing a mess as people try to get around, or almost as bad, speed and taigate like everyone else. Eventually, one will go through a few cars when it can’t stop, but they will not end the practice until after there are fatalities which can be plainly blamed on this behavior.
I travel the NJ turnpike quite a bit and it is NOT uncommon on high traffic days (summer, Friday afternoon) for the troopers to run down the left lane with lights flashing for the sole purpose of clearing slow drivers out of the passing lane. This is done while the traffic is flowing at a good 80 to 85 mph! Line up in back of the trooper and follow and them have no problems with you!
Without this action traffic would back up all the way back to New England!
MANY, MANY people here have very bad driving habits and are totally unaware of it. I watch drives with Minivans full of children pace 18 wheelers forgetting that a simply mistake on either parties part will most likely cause the death of all passangers in the minivan. It is also common for slow drivers to occupy the left lane than than pace slower moving cars in the right leading to all traffic behind them getting conjested and DANGEROUS. Personally I do not like to be near truck on the highway, it is not necessary.
When I drive I make it a rule and also teach my wife to find the “clear”. Unless it is a traffic jam there is NO reason for a car to be directly to your right or left. Cars do really ugly things when they manage to touch each other at 60+ mph!
Slow drivers ARE VERY DANGEROUS and they cause all of the rest of the folks using the road to waste gas with all the unnecessary accelerating and decelerating. The irony is that driving slow or maintaining the posted speed limit(in traffic) is not easy and rather fatiguing. That is why so many “slow” drivers refuse to stay in the right lane and constantly pull to the left lane and end up blocking the flow of faster traffic.
Gotta love folks that refuse to get out of the way, back up traffic, cause everyone else behind them to start all of the dangerous manuvering, yet believe that they are safe drivers!
whatdoiknow1 said: “When I drive I make it a rule and also teach my wife to find the ‘clear’.”
This is off topic, but wow, what a concept: teaching your wife. My wife already knows everything, and let’s me know this every time I even make a suggestion anywhere about anything. And, no, I’m not just talking about driving; I’m talking about everything.
hey whatdoiknow1 . . . !
NJ toopers clearing out the left lane on purpose?
I find that idea as delightful as it is a bit hard to believe.
whatdoiknow1 – very well said.
ttacgreg – I can vouch for what whatdoiknow1 said, although I don’t know the Troopers motivation is, although it seems plausible to me.
Usually they come out of nowhere and are right on your bumper. They got heat for doing this when they cause a crash that nearly killed our beloved governer.
Always the same argument, but never any resolution.
To me, it seems that there is no legitimate reason to enforce speed limits at all. A stated reason for limits is to prevent accidents. There are still accidents; therefore, it’s all a control and revenue-generation operation. As a previous poster noted, a cop almost caused a massive pile-up while lurking by the roadside. And how many accidents and deaths do the cops cause careening about in their witless high-speed chases? There’s a simple principle at work here. If a cop speeds to catch you, which of course he will, he also is breaking the “law.”
There’s another thing that seems flummox people: The reason for cars IS to “speed.” We can walk instead. But we’d rather spend an inordinate amount of our income on a device that lets us get from A to B before the cobwebs get too thick.
Now, in the free world here’s how it would work: No insurance, licensing, speed traps. You pay your own way for any damage you cause, not the insurance company. A zillion dollar charge for repairs to someone’s SLR quickly encourages the right mindset.
Course, it’s unlikely we’re ever going to see anything like that, because it makes too much sense, in our lifetimes. In the meantime, more pie in the sky:
– people should research how to fight these bogus speeding and speed camera tickets. It can be done successfully and there are plenty of resources on the internet describing how.
– race or professional driving courses should be mandated for all drivers. Say, $2000 plus a vehicle power surcharge tacked on to annual insurance rates for not participating. Replace all licensing bureaus with the driving schools. These courses are humbling (in a good way) and put a lid on the desire to go drifting on the Interstate.
– big signs on left side of highway: “If you drive in the left lane other than to pass, or if you tailgate, you will be ticketed.” Those two should be among the few enforced offenses.
– if a driver is using his or her cellphone, drinking coffee, or such, and has an accident, and it’s not obvious who was at fault, the ruling goes against that driver
As far as the fuel conservation argument, that’s another red herring. What’s the logical extension? Jail time and a fine if you don’t cluster and organize your road-trips to save fuel? (answer: yes)
essen Says:
July 21st, 2008 at 11:57 am
4. ash78, those Georgia students should be arrested for their “rolling roadblock”. They are self-rightous punks who are lucky a frustrated motorist didn’t shoot them.
Georgia State Patrol said they wouldn’t be ticketed because they were going the speed limit. I guess it’s only impeding traffic if the were going slower than the speed limit.
If you haven’t watched the video yet, you should. One guy used the shoulder to pass an almost slammed into a disabled car.
My classroom driver’s ed teacher told us this very thing in 9th grade. Purposely driving the speed limit when the overall pace of traffic is much faster is both stupid and dangerous.
Unfortunately, those Georgia students aren’t the only ones that try vigilante crap on our roadways. These self-appointed law enforcers can’t take their eyes off their own points of view long enough to realize that most people simply don’t care what they think. People like to fantasize and romance about being a big, bad citizen law enforcer, but the reality is much less glamorous. It’s a good way to get yourself stomped or killed. Adopt a jackass, but don’t be one. (Actually, I think you have to adopt two at a time, because donkeys get lonely if they’re by themselves.)
What I took from the Georgia student video was aimed at both sides:
1. Stupid/impatient drivers who take issue with people going the speed limit (even though it caused very poor traffic flow)
2. Stupid speed limit and lane laws that don’t allow anything to legally be done about such “rolling roadblocks”
The experiment was only possible because of a combination of dumb laws and dumb drivers.
essen Says:
July 21st, 2008 at 11:57 am
NJ law is keep right, pass left. If he only passed one driver, as he claimed then he should have gotten in the slow lane. You do not have a right to drive the speed limit in the fast lane if you are blocking traffic.
Actually, you do. It would be illegal for a driver in the left lane to exceed the speed limit under any circumstances, unless he is driving an emergency vehicle. Complain about those who make the laws, not those who follow it. That said, I do consider the left lane to be a passing lane and I don’t block it. I drive the speed limit in the right lane and I don’t care how fast anyone else is going except the next driver ahead of me.
Unfortunately, those Georgia students aren’t the only ones that try vigilante crap on our roadways.
Did you watch the video? The students opposed the speed limit, and were trying to show how disruptive it is. (The film wasn’t very good, but their point was well taken.)
They were practicing what is referred to as “malicious obedience,” taking compliance with a rigid, unfounded rule to its logical conclusion. They aren’t the first group to demonstrate what happens when people prioritize obedience, rather than safety. Nothing good comes from blind allegiance.
essen: Usually they come out of nowhere and are right on your bumper. They got heat for doing this when they cause a crash that nearly killed our beloved governer.”
Grepping the net shows that the New Jersey governor was almost killed by a member of the so-called “Executive Protection Unit” who was driving the Official SUV that was ferrying the governor to his appointment with the call girl … oh, sorry, wrong governor!
At the time of the accident, the driver was going 91mph, hit the guardrail, and probably lost control of the vehicle. The driver had been on the road for 12 hours that day. Not mentioned, but likely: driver fatigue.
Contributed factor is simply stupidity: the governor wasn’t wearing a seatbelt.
Subsequently, the stupidity was raised to a large exponent: despite the accident, the governor said he still trusts the driver who almost killed him.
http://media.www.dailyiowan.com/media/storage/paper599/news/2007/06/22/Nation/Report.Trooper.At.Fault.For.Crash.Injuring.New.Jersey.Governor-2917542.shtml
Sounds like a recent article in the Tampa Tribune.As a resident of South Florida, I have learned to ignore the speedometer, and just keep up with traffic. The computer usually shows average speed in excess of 80 mph.
There was a letter to the editor in our local paper last Sunday, where a lady bragged about how she only goes 55 on a 2 lane (one each way) highway that is the main road into and out of town to the northeast. She said that no matter how many cars get piled up behind her she continues going 55 mph because it’s better for the environment (higher mpg), better for the individual’s pocket books (once again, higher mpgs), and safer. She concluded by saying she thinks the other drivers should thank her for what she’s doing for them and besides she’s not breaking any laws because she’s going the speed limit. I guess she can’t read those other signs along this highway saying “slower traffic use turnouts to allow passing.” Or, maybe in her sanctimoniuos righteousness, she feels that isn’t a law that needs to be obeyed.
I also have always heard/read that speed difference is what causes accidents. I actually read a short article in AAA’s Via several years ago describing how cars tend to travel in clusters on less than full highways. The article recommended speeding up, even to above the speed limit, when in one of these clusters to get through it as fast as reasonably possible in order to reduce your risk of an accident. This seems to be in line with whatdoIknow1’s philosophy of “open space.”
Finally, I believe in a 90th percentile rule. Base the speed limit on what 90% of the cars on the road can safely travel at. In some locations, that could easily be 90+ mph e.g. eastern Oregon, most of Nevada, most of Wyoming, Montana, etc.
So everyone is talking about the speed limit. What do you guys think should be the MINIMUM speed. Speed limit at 90th percentile, minimum speed at 1/2 or 2/3 of max?
Lumbergh21: She cocnluded by saying she thinks the other drivers should thank her for what she’s doing for them and besides she’s not breaking any laws because she’s going the speed limit.
But don’t you think this “sanctimonious righteousness” is qualitatively better than the outright threats — “Go faster and everyone gets out of here alive” — from the hyper-speeders?
I give these jokers +10km/h on single-lane highways, and more or less the limit on limited access roads.
If they want me to go faster, then can pay me and my tickets.
The article recommended speeding up, even to above the speed limit, when in one of these clusters to get through it as fast as reasonably possible in orrer to reduce your risk of an accident.
If, as you aver, ‘speed difference’ is the problem, then why would speeding up be any better than slowing down to get through these “clusters”?
Base the speed limit on what 90% of the cars on the road can safely travel at.
I say we separate the issue cleanly.
1. Safety.
2. Fuel economy.
The current climate started at point (2). I suspect that item (1) is raised only because the argument in favor of item (2) is completely irrefutable. I think even the speeders can sense they are going to lose it, and badly. So re-frame the debate to be all about ‘safety’.
My personal suggestion is to only prosecute traffic laws at the scene of an accident. And prosecute them viciously.
My personal suggestion is to only prosecute traffic laws at the scene of an accident. And prosecute them viciously.
This only ensures more hit-and-run accidents. If people are fearful of severe prosecution at every fender bender, you can be sure that they will flee the scene of the crime.
Beware of magic bullet solutions. They have a tendency to hit us in all the wrong places.
pch101: This only ensures more hit-and-run accidents.
What kind of severe prosecution can result from a simple fender bender? The accidents of much greater interest result in vehicles that are generally inoperative, and drivers in a state not conducive to flight.
Beware of magic bullet solutions. They have a tendency to hit us in all the wrong places.
Har. And the current system is some kind of manifest wonder of justice? Limited enforcement prior to the accident, and effectively wrist-slaps afterwards?
What kind of severe prosecution can result from a simple fender bender?
Hey, you’re the one who suggested it. If the prosecution is known for being draconian, people will assume the worst and take off. No point in waiting around to find out what could happen, if the result is invariably harsh.
And the current system is some kind of manifest wonder of justice?
No, but it’s not an either/or universe with only two options. The current system may need reform, but your particular solution would only make it worse.
rpn453,
Sorry but the NJ law is:
39:4-87. Failure to yield to overtaking vehicle, Overtaken vehicle to give way The driver of a vehicle on a highway, about to be overtaken and passed by another vehicle, approaching from the rear, shall give way to the right in favor of the overtaking vehicle on suitable and audible signal being given by the driver of the overtaking vehicle, and shall not increase the speed of his vehicle until completely passed by the overtaking vehicle.
<mdf: say we separate the issue cleanly.
1. Safety.
2. Fuel economy.
The current climate started at point (2). I suspect that item (1) is raised only because the argument in favor of item (2) is completely irrefutable. I think even the speeders can sense they are going to lose it, and badly. So re-frame the debate to be all about ’safety’.
We can dispatch point 2 by noting that speed limits – and, by extension, the speed at which individuals drive – are to be determined by safety, not fuel economy. Yes, vehicles use more gas at higher speeds. And if people cannot afford to pay for the extra gas, or don’t want to, it may be advisable to simply stay home.
The minimum speed on today’s interstate highways is 70-75 mph. Do vehicles use more gas than traveling at 55 mph? Sure. Guess what – too bad. If you can’t keep up with 75 mph, or don’t want to use the extra gas, then stay off the road.
mdf Says:
But don’t you think this “sanctimonious righteousness” is qualitatively better than the outright threats — “Go faster and everyone gets out of here alive” — from the hyper-speeders?
I give these jokers +10km/h on single-lane highways, and more or less the limit on limited access roads.
If they want me to go faster, then can pay me and my tickets.
What folks with this silly attitude do not comprehend is that THEY are only creating a more dangerous situation for all of the drivers that are stuck behind their sanctimonious selves! You are the guys (and gals) that force trucks and buses into the left lane which then only backups traffic even further.
Now that you have backuped traffic you have many many drivers of all different types of vehicles jockeying and doing all kindas of unsafe stuff to get around you!
This also places all of the “truly” safe drivers in jepordary.
THE BEST PRACTICE TO LET SOMEONE WHO WANTS TO PASS SIMPLY PASS! WTF is hard about that? By playing wannabe law-enforcer you run the risk of creating a road-rage incident that endangers all of us on that road!
I do make it a point to drive safely, and somethings it does require me to put the petal down to get away from the mindless cruisers that obey the speed limit but feel it is OK to engage in just about any other mindless distracting activity that requires them to drive slowly so they can perform.
Personally I like to “drive”. What I mean by that is I perfer to operate my vehicle at a level that does require some real concentration. It is far to easy to get distracted at 55 to 65mph on the highway. At 80 mph the vast majority of vehicles are operating at a good spot within their powerband @3000rpm and they feel best with that sense of “pull” that is missing at 55 to 65 mph.
In addition to the fact that being a left lane bandit is just wrong for so many reasons, many stated, here is another little factoid.
You have no idea how fast you are going. Your car is NOT equipped to accurately measure it’s own velocity.
A driver who is blocking the passing lane under the guise of going the limit is just being an ignorant turd. They don’t know they are going the limit.
whatdoiknow1: Now that you have backuped traffic you have many many drivers of all different types of vehicles jockeying and doing all kindas of unsafe stuff to get around you!
I have no idea where this fantasy scenario of yours is coming from. But to entertain it, I’ll simply say this:
It is none of my business how these people choose to drive their cars or trucks, in so far as they do not hit me. You know, “the right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose” and all that.
THE BEST PRACTICE TO LET SOMEONE WHO WANTS TO PASS SIMPLY PASS!
Yes, well, and who is preventing this from happening?
By playing wannabe law-enforcer you run the risk of creating a road-rage incident that endangers all of us on that road!
Man, you seriously need to calm down. Road rage, you say?
And I can’t help but point out what should be obvious: absent other circumstance (left lane bandit, etc) driving at the speed limit on a multi-lane road is not a “law enforcement” action.
Just out of curiosity, are you making this all up as you go along?
Agressive drivers should be targeted. When I drive on interstates, I keep right, except to pass. I go with the flow speed wise, trying to stay in the the middle of the pack. When truckers start slowing down to the limit, so do I.
…accident rates will go up as the variance between those who want to get there in a reasonable time and those who drive the speed limit increases.
I guess I never understand why people want to go so dang fast on the road anyway. Here is a quick chart of the time you will save by going faster than 60mph
(minutes are in decimal point not minute/sec)
75mph (vs 60mph)
10 Mile trip – Save 2 minutes
15 Mile Trip – Save 3 Minutes
20 Mile Trip – Save 4 Minutes
25 Mile Trip – Save 5 Minutes
250 Miles Trip – Save .83 HOURS
90MPH (vs 60mph)
10 Mile trip – Save 3.33 minutes
15 Mile Trip – Save 5.00 Minutes
20 Mile Trip – Save 6.67 Minutes
25 Mile Trip – Save 8.33 Minutes
250 Miles Trip – Save 1.39 HOURS
All those are assuming that you could actually go that speed in town, which is almost impossible. Most people don’t drive long distances all the time.
However it DOES make sense when your driving long distances (as shown above). Especially when it’s a family road trip with the kids, every moment counts.
(sorry about the decimal times, I suck at time math.)
Here in Pennsylvania, traffic flows at 75 mph on most limited access highways and the roads are safe. The minimum speed on most limited access highways is 75 mph.
With out of state plates, driving 75 on I-80 in PA will get you pulled over. Pennsylvania takes forever when you’re driving to the east coast.
Michigan has much more sensible speed enforcement on the interstates. There can be local speed traps, of course – watch out near Paw Paw on 94 – but the Mich State Police are pretty professional. Troopers have told me you almost always have to be doing at 80+ to get pulled over if you’re otherwise driving in a safe manner. In the metro Detroit area, on the freeways inside the Detroit city limits, the chances of coming across a DPD cruiser are slim, so you can go w/ the flow and not worry about a ticket.
joe_thousandaire
And then there’s the extra special idiot who when you go to pass him/her on the right speeds up to prevent you. I’ve had to do extremely dangerous passes because of assholes like this.
And to follow up on shrique’s post:
On long trips, I go around 10 over the limit sometimes streching to 15. Around town, I typically stay right around the limit.
And then there’s the extra special idiot who when you go to pass him/her on the right speeds up to prevent you. I’ve had to do extremely dangerous passes because of assholes like this.
Ya know, if you had those extra 100 horses or so under the hood, this wouldn’t be a problem. It sure as hell isn’t a problem for me.
Geeber>
The speed LIMIT here, in the chicago area on I-94/I-90/I-55/I-294/I-88/I-80, etc is 55. Not sure where you live that it is 75….
On I-95 over here in FL, the limit varies from 55 to 70, yet people blew by me when I was going 80… I hate Florida drivers, it’s one thing that’s motivating me to go to another state…
This is always a fun debate, but ultimately useless since nothing ever changes.
I think people will travel on any given road at a speed that they are comfortable with, regardless of the posted limit. (With the exception of the excessively law-abiding types.) I use as an example two streets in my area. One has a posted limit of 50 km/h, but traffic moves at an average of 80-90 km/h on large portions of this street. Another has a posted limit of 60 km/h, but traffic typically moves at around 70 km/h. What’s going on here? Obviously there isn’t a fixed speed over the limit that vehicles are traveling, so on one street people must obviously feel more comfortable at a higher speed than the other. I suspect that if the limit on both streets were raised to 70 you would not see a difference in average speed.
I don’t want to go 85, or 75 for that matter. Do you know how much longer your braking distances are at those speeds? We have deer running out onto the highway where I live. Less safety. Less fuel economy.
I don’t have a problem with people speeding as long as they leave me alone in the right lane.
quasimondo
I used to have those extra 100 horses, but got the occasional guy who had an extra 50 to make it dangerous for both of us.
# essen Says:
July 21st, 2008 at 11:57 am
4. ash78, those Georgia students should be arrested for their “rolling roadblock”. They are self-rightous punks who are lucky a frustrated motorist didn’t shoot them.
Maybe the students were well armed and ready to shoot right back! Reading sites like this one would appear to have given them reasonable cause to believe that violence was a clear possibility.
Some folks seem to be living on a hair trigger. Threatening to kill someone for slowing you down to the speed limit for a few minutes seems like crazy talk, so suggesting that they relax and chill out a bit is probably a waste of time.
I’ve lowered my speed to between 45 and 60 on most highways. My fuel economy skyrocketed. Now I get about 100 to 200 miles more per tank of gas in mixed driving, good for three to six days commute. I’m lovin it.
I dont give a damn who is tailgating me, who is annoyed with me. I keep to the right lane, usually no one bothers me. If they do, who cares. If they are really concenned, they can pay my fuel bills and my speeding tickets.
I will not speed because everyone else is. What an adolescent excuse!.
Also, i dont have to constantly be looking around for traffic cops. Bliss.
If you are in the right lane, and over the minimum, then you are fine. I spend most of my time there, even though I tend to drive right at or slightly above the limit.
I would suggest planning your passes by looking in the mirror first. I don’t get the speed demons who tailgate, but I also don’t get the folks who have to pass a car that is going 2 mph slower than them without bothering to speed up to do it.
The really obnoxious folks are the ones that try to pass a line of cars on the right when they are all lined up waiting to pass a slow mover. Usually because someone is passing at 2 mph over the slower guy. Still, passing on the right is not proper if the left lane is full.
# essen Says:
July 21st, 2008 at 3:25 pm
rpn453,
Sorry but the NJ law is:
39:4-87. Failure to yield to overtaking vehicle, Overtaken vehicle to give way The driver of a vehicle on a highway, about to be overtaken and passed by another vehicle, approaching from the rear, shall give way to the right in favor of the overtaking vehicle on suitable and audible signal being given by the driver of the overtaking vehicle, and shall not increase the speed of his vehicle until completely passed by the overtaking vehicle.
That doesn’t disagree with what I said. Nowhere in that section does it condone exceeding the speed limit. If you are in the left lane doing the speed limit and there is someone beside you in the right lane at the same speed, you must slow down and get behind the car beside you to allow the overtaking vehicle to pass. Personally, I’d just speed up to get back in the right lane (and I wouldn’t be doing the speed limit in the left lane with anyone behind me anyway), but if I were strictly following our laws I’d have to slow down instead of exceeding the speed limit.
In addition to what I’ve said, I have to disagree with the supposed danger aspect of driving the speed limit. The person driving at a steady speed in one lane only without braking or tailgating is highly unlikely to be involved in an accident. It will almost certainly involve those who are constantly braking, tailgating, and changing lanes unsafely in the background. I really don’t care what happens to them; they’re destined for a wreck regardless of my actions.
Speeding.
You do it as a matter of course. Whether driving to work at rush hour or to the store to get ice cream.
You bully other drivers to get out of your way and tailgate them if they don’t.
Driving in Atlanta is the same as Chicago and LA and Orlando.
There is a large glaring disconnect between what people say they believe and their conduct, sympathetically reading this article and then going to work at 85mph.
The REAL truth about cars is that it is the best and most revealing test of character. In a car you are anonymous and unaccountable. If you are a selfish impatient person it will show in your driving. If you are a bully you will drive accordingly.
rpn453,
I don’t know what state you live in. All I can tell you is if you are doing the speed limit in the left lane in NJ and going slower then the traffic on the right you will get 1. pushed aside by a state trooper 2. pulled over and/or cited.
We also have laws about deliberately impeding the flow of traffic. (and using cell phones).
ghillie, I don’t condone shooting idiot motorists, I just said that was a possibility.
If you can’t keep up with 75 mph, or don’t want to use the extra gas, then stay off the road.
I would say or pull over and let those of us who can go by. I’ll share the road with you, I just expect you to share the road with me as well.
If they want me to go faster, then can pay me and my tickets.
Or, you could pull over and let them by. As I pointed out in my original post, that’s what you are required to do.
If, as you aver, ’speed difference’ is the problem, then why would speeding up be any better than slowing down to get through these “clusters”?
Once again, in my original post I pointed to this as a variation on another posters empty space theory. Always maintain empty space next to you wehnever possible.
Finally, unless you are paying for the gas in the tank of my car, safety is the only argument for setting speed limits. If I’m willing to pay for 10% more fuel to reduce my travel time by 16.7% (increasing my speed from 60 to 70 mph), then that’s my business or should be.
“Finally, unless you are paying for the gas in the tank of my car, safety is the only argument for setting speed limits. If I’m willing to pay for 10% more fuel to reduce my travel time by 16.7% (increasing my speed from 60 to 70 mph), then that’s my business or should be.”
Well said.
essen Says:
July 22nd, 2008 at 10:12 am
rpn453,
I don’t know what state you live in. All I can tell you is if you are doing the speed limit in the left lane in NJ and going slower then the traffic on the right you will get 1. pushed aside by a state trooper 2. pulled over and/or cited.
We also have laws about deliberately impeding the flow of traffic. (and using cell phones).
That would be an interesting day in court! I think I might just drive in the left lane now to see if I can make it happen and bring the issue up in court. Maybe I can initiate some positive change and get the speed limit raised to 85 or 90 mph like you want. I wonder what the judge would say when the officer admits that he was speeding right before giving me a ticket for obeying the law. By law, the only person who can legally exceed the speed limit in any lane is an emergency vehicle with its emergency lights on. Please find me the section of any North American traffic code that disagrees with that statement.
But I’m not really going to do that. I’m just arguing the perspective of anyone who strictly obeys the law. I’ll stay in the right lane, drive the speed limit, and relax while watching the traffic flow by.
rpn453,
Ya, you try that. You might want to read my earlier post though.
Okay, I will give you a break since there are 8 pages.
The police officer will simply state that he was driving the limit, and you were not. Your car is not equipped to accurately inform you of your speed. You lose, pay the maximum fine for aggravating the court.
Lastly, it really doesn’t matter what the law is. Being a left lane bandit is irresponsible and rude, even if you are over the limit. That’s just the way it is. If the highway in front of you is not congested, then you should allow others to pass. You are not a cop, and if you were, you wouldn’t do that because you would know better (and likey be going 90).
Landcrusher, you’re almost certainly right. I really wouldn’t expect any better out of a police officer. Most are hypocrites; their job is to defend the law and yet they often don’t abide by it. I wonder if it would change anything if I had a GPS in addition to an accurate speedometer and a witness in the car using a camcorder to record the whole situation? I seriously would enjoy challenging the system on this, but I think trying to get the ticket would be more aggravating and time consuming than the legal part. For one thing, I’d need to get a big old beater 1-ton truck with concrete-filled 6″ sched. 40 bumpers if I was planning on pissing off that many other motorists!
rpn,
You missed the main thrust of my point. A GPS will not give you accurate speed unless it has at least 14 distinct receivers. Still, it likely won’t be within a single mile an hour at 60, on a dependable basis unless you also have it talking to a ring gyro set with a good processor and some fancy software.
I am not kidding. You really cannot know your speed. Therefore, you must ALWAYS yield to someone wanting to pass. The limit is NOT an excuse.
The ONLY exception would be if you are traveling at a safe distance of the car in front of you also waiting to pass(congested highway). If the guy behind you wants to be a tailgating idiot, I suggest you let him pass anyway and keep a good distance from him so you don’t end up in a multi car pile up.
If a cop ever comes up behind you, I suggest you also let him pass. Tickets have supposedly been beaten by dedicated lawyers based on the trick you want to use, but I think the cops are now pretty well trained to avoid giving testimony that will fall into that trap. Guilty or not, they will walk away unscathed, you will not. It’s not worth it to stick it to the man over cops driving habits.