Why? Non-sales of GM's two-mode hybrid SUVs and pickup have thoroughly discredited the system as an expensive affectation. And although oil burners' adherents couldn't be more rabid if they were bitten by a foaming fox, there's little evidence to suggest that mainstream consumers want to pay the estimated $2k premium for a diesel powerpant AND a buck more per gallon at the pump. Still, what do I know? The Windsor Star says it's two-mode speed ahead for the former Daimler division. "J.D. Power reports that Chrysler intends to put its two-mode hybrid system in the Grand Caravan starting next year. Chrysler will start offering the same system in its Aspen and Dodge Durango SUVs next month, at prices starting about $5,000 less than the GM vehicles." Yes, well, that's $4k MORE than a gas version, BEFORE discounts. [NB: June sales reveal that the Durango's dead and the Aspen is deaderer.] As for the re-badged Caravan soon-to-be-unknown as the VW Routan, "Volkswagen could go in two directions… either by offering one of its own four-cylinder diesel engines, which would offer excellent fuel economy but be considered rather underpowered compared to gasoline-powered minivans, or by offering the three-litre Mercedes diesel that Chrysler is currently offering as an option in its Grand Cherokee." Decisions, decisions…
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Chrysler already sells the Grand Caravan in Europe with the 2.8 liter turbo-diesel & six-speed automatic.
If it can handle the Autobahn, it can handle North America.
Only question is, will there be any Chrysler left to sell it here?
Let’s see wait and see what the Two Mode VUE brings to the table before we discredit the entire hybrid system solely based on slow sales of BOF Full-size SUV Hybrids.
Hybrid minivans make sense; they’re efficiently-packaged people movers. Unlike a SUV, which is more or less an image vehicle whose utility is only really appropriate for a small slice of the population, a minivan is very much a function-over-form appliance, sort of like, well, the Prius.
Nothing says “Screw the environment” like a full-size SUV; nothing says “Screw my image!” like a Dodge Caravan. I think these will sell well for that reason alone.
I’ve heard more than a few people express a want for something environmentally sound, but with more space than a Prius. It won’t sell to green-by-image buyers, but it will appeal to the masses who are looking at Priuses and Camrys now. It’ll certainly make Toyota look flat-footed for not offering a hybrid Sienna.
And to be fair, two-mode isn’t really a bad system. It’s rather good, in fact, in that it’s both very efficient and more easily implemented than HSD. The problem has been getting it down to car scale and, of course, GM’s totally inept marketing: putting hybrid powertrains in vehicles that hybrid buyers would never buy! Brilliant! Why not try selling steak to vegans next?
Chrysler will start offering the same system in its Aspen and Dodge Durango SUVs next month
If they are using the Durango and Aspen as a test bed, I can see the point. However, if they foresee this as something that will resurrect these models they are in huge trouble. The Durango is an automotive anachronism, has been for years, and the Aspen should never have seen the light of day.
On the other hand, a suitable system in a minivan would be a great idea. A minivan with Prius-like mileage would be, I think, a huge step forward for Chrysler.
While consumers may not want to spend an extra $2000 for diesel or $5000 for a hybrid, CAFE will leave them no choice in a few years for any vehicle weighing more than 3500 – 4000 lbs.
Chrysler’s got to do something quickly to protect their minivan franchise, but what?
Fuel economy options cost lots, and the minivan segment is already competitive with rebates and incentives offered just about everywhere. A 2-mode minivan would be in a similar awkward position to the 2-mode GMT900’s – expensive, in limited supply, and sharing lot space with its heavily discounted non-hybrid stablemates. The alternative is to stick the hybrid in a base minivan, but I don’t see people rushing to buy $35K minivans with stripper interiors and no fancy options. Let’s also not forget to ask where the batteries would go – I’m guessing the underdeck Stow ‘N Go compartments would have to be sacrificed.
The GC turbodiesel is a $1655 option on top of the $36K Limited. I’m guessing that the high base price helps absorb the true cost of the powertrain, and that if it were offered in a base minivan it would cost significantly more.
The question has to be whether Chrysler still will be around next year for the Minivan hybrid.
No doubt, a hybrid version of the box will be a selling point, but they need that vehicle now.Instead they are pumping money in the two defunct Durangos’s.
Wow, I’m amazed that they’re finally doing this. They should have done this years ago and had people hooked on diesel minivans long before the fuel prices shot up. It’s not like Chrysler didn’t build them for the European market.
Since VW can’t decide if they’re going to sell a Tiguan TDI in NA, people might actually check out the Routan if they offer it with a diesel. And I can’t see how a diesel Caravan could be bad for Chrysler, unless the price premium is too high and the stated EPA numbers are too low.
Isn’t this good news?
Man, a minivan with monster torque, all that space, and getting 35mpg *combined*? That seems pretty sweet.
How long would it take to pay off the extra loot for the diesel, if its getting an extra 15+ mpg over the gas version, even with diesel being more expensive?
And what about a diesel-hybrid? Wouldn’t that be the best of both worlds? Hybrid MPG in town, and diesel on the highway?
“The Mercedes diesel puts out 200 horsepower and an overwhelming amount of torque – in the range of 400 foot-pounds, Omotoso said. But its fuel economy is less than stellar, at a combined city/highway rate of about 35 miles per U.S. gallon,.”
Since Chrysler is offering that $2.99 gas/diesel thing right now, it might be a great way to get people into diesel. I think 250 lb-ft is plenty to motivate a minivan, even if it only offers 140hp or so.
As has been discussed ad nauseum here and elsewhere, the general mouthbreathing public can’t be arsed to do fancy mathematical calculations and will instead simply conclude that “diesel costs more than gas AND you are charging more for the diesel engine” and ignore those vehicles entirely. Which is likely going to happen, sadly.
I can’t see how a Diesel would cater to the masses in the US. For the Benz gurus here: A 220CDI(4Cyl) engine costs(procurement cost) about thes same as a 5.7l V8 in a Jeep.Try selling that to a customer.
And although oil burners’ adherents couldn’t be more rabid if they were bitten by a foaming fox,
Hey! I resemble that remark! =P
there’s little evidence to suggest that mainstream consumers want to pay the estimated $2k premium for a diesel powerpant …
When I bought my TDI it was $2000 LESS than the gasoline powered model. Prices are subject to economic forces beyond what cynical pundits say they are… you know, supply, demand, etc. Automakers are charging a premium for Oelmotoren right now because they can, as well as small production numbers. Anything to improve profit margins in a dying business is a GOOD thing, right? Which way do you want it to go for the “.3” of the Big 2.3?
…AND a buck more per gallon at the pump.
In my area, Diesel fuel is now at parity with Premium unleaded, and about 40¢ over regular unleaded. There have been times historically when Diesel fuel has been less than half the price of gasoline. Just because things are “right now”, doesn’t mean that they will always be. Prices change due to all sorts of reasons, and will change again in the future. Additionally petroleum is not the sole source of motivation for a Diesel powered car, nor is it the least expensive.
This may sound like a “rabid adherent”, but so long as the facts aren’t presented I’ll keep adding them on… just to keep you honest. =)
–chuck
To paraphrase Mark Twain, the reports of diesel’s death have been greatly exaggerated.
The Durango and Aspen are wagons on stilts and, as such, would seem to have plenty of room for hybrid components under the floor. Where does this stuff go in a space optimized front drive vehicle with sto-n-go seating?
Ralph,
Two mode is essentially contained within the transmission case, which is a known space. The battery pack would probably fill the Stow’n’Go cavities and/or the rear-seat fold-down well and/or the spare tire space.
I can see a Diesel Minivan doing very well here in Canada. I know many a person who has wanted one for years. Diesel at my local station is generally about 2 cents/litre more than “regular”. Before higher gas proces, Minivans were good sellers up here, if a more efficient power train was available, I could see it helping sales. Of course to do all this Chrysler has to still be in business.
In no way does this make sense, Chuck. The only reason there is any interest in diesels now is because fuel prices are high. It doesn’t matter whether prices go up or down, people aren’t going to think about it any more than they do. If they go down, economy won’t be a pressing issue anymore, and diesels will make even less sense. If they stay the same or go up, then the initial cost and higher price will scare everyone away. There’s no outcome that’s good for diesels. None.
What would lower the initial price of the powertrain, anyways? It’s still going to be low-volume and more expensive to produce than a gas engine, thanks to the urea-filled exhaust cleaners.
And don’t give that “in my area” anecdotal crap, either. According to the Energy Information Administration the average price of diesel across the country is $4.76, compared to $4.11 for gas. I think you’ll find that’s a 65 cent difference per gallon. The fact is that diesels aren’t going to make many inroads in the American market in the near term.
Just bought a diesel TDI Jetta– SUPERB CAR! 1200km per tank with power galore. There were only 2 available in Southern Ontario… you just can buy em.
Part ll: I work for Chrysler and want to buy a Grand Caravan– Diesel Sold on diesel.
“no outcome that’s good for diesel” KEEP YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND MY FRIEND.
The battery system may be also around or between the stow&go seats, provided there is enough space. Don’t know how the floor is configured in those things.
In this case the packaging is challenging and key to the success of the project. Since this a “recent” project, hybrid possibility should have already been engineered in. I hope for their good they did.
To me is a good idea. But don’t understand the decision of going with the diesel ICE, given fuel prices and US “opinion” toward them. In fact, is a killer combo.
They have to overcome some major obstacles: quality (perceived or actual), advertising and marketing the fuel economy, public perception on company’s health. If they can figure out how to solve them, I think these things will be a hit.
If Chrysler fails at this, the idea, as usual, will be picked by the japanese -read Toyota/Honda-, “improved” -read gasoline instead of diesel ICE- and sold successfully. Then eventually they will install in 5 years, after everyone forgot the “infamous” Chrysler 1st experiment, and you will happily be buying a diesel-hybrid Sienna/Oddisey.
ICE: Internal Combustion Engine
@Stingray: to save money, the current minivan’s floorpan is carried over from the prior MCE in 2004. The spare tire sits underbody between the front seats, which might be sacrificed for battery space.
If Chrysler could figure out how to make people forget the minivan stigma, and understand that the minivans are fabulous multitaskers with decent gas mileage, they’d have a shot. But vehicles are still emotional purchases for many, and minivans are purchased by people who value the utility, not their image.
Hey Brangelina, how bout a T&C to haul those adorable kiddies around?
Good God Almighty, lay off the 2.8 would ya. Geez. Speaking as a guy in the auto industry, i have seen junk from ALL the manufacturers. Really guys, Chrysler be damned if they do and damned if they dont, at least they are making reasonable attempts at getting things in some order and putting the necessary plans together to develop relevant products to a market that NOBODY could forsee. ALL the manufacturers responded in the last few years with products the buying public wanted, NOT just the domestics. Yes, they were a tad short sighted by not haveing some level of small car developement program, but given the legacy costs they carry it seems that they were being rather prudent with RND money as it was available. Lets also not forget that Chrysler has been in private hands for less than a year. And this year has been loaded with unexpected events. I
Ptrott:
May I respectfully suggest that you browse this site a bit more? Perhaps work your way back chronologically. And THEN tell me A) Cerberus is doing a good job and B) None of the current crisis could have been foretold.
ptrott, I have a 12th grade education and I saw it coming. When I quit my job and went out on my own, I took a calculated risk. It paid off and my income increased over fourfold in 2004. I did not however, as advised by my friends move to a bigger house. Still have the same 863 sq. ft. house for me and my son. My vehicles are leased short term. Good thing, my TL is up and I will walk away next month after 24 months. I have been called a kook, conspiracy nut, chicken little, you name it. Why – because I pay attention to the dollar, the congress, the bilderberg etc. I read Robert Chapman, Al Martin, Dr John Coleman. I dont watch american idol. Anyone paying attention to our national debt for the past ten years has known this storm was coming. Last week the contractor who installed my siding 4 years ago stopped over to do a repair. First words out of his mouth were not how ‘ya been. They were “you called it – oil IS $150 a barrel!” I must have told him in 2004 that I believed oil would be here at its present outragous price today. The economic forecasters on detroits payroll could not figure this out?
The big question here is WHICH diesel are they going to use. The engineering for the 2.8 VM 4 cyl is already done as it goes into the European version of the Mopar Peoplemover.
Or will they use the 2.2L Mercedes 4cyl?
Both could give 25mpg city and 30+ highway.
Even in my Jeep KJ which was not designed with fuel economy as a big consideration I get 22city and 25 highway from the 2.8VM.
There is a bit of a marketing issue for the math challenged with diesel costing more than gas.
It won’t be the 2.8 VM four cylinder as used in Europe. There is no program to make that engine US compliant, which is very expensive. It would either be the VW 2.0 four, which makes up to 170hp in Europe, or the MB V6. Both are US compliant.
I do pay a great deal of attention to the news, markets and the political grumblings of the fools in washington and they all speak alot without saying anything at all. Oil crisis? I have yet to hear a believable explanation of the supply and demand cause and effect here. Demand is NOT disproportionally out of whack with year over year growth along with supply. Not to mention on this very site i read where U.S. consumption of gasoline has been rolled back to 2003 levels. So why the runnup in prices? Nobody can/will provide a straight answer to that. And if we had a dollar for every economic soothsayer in the last ten years making predictions of all kinds, NONE of us would be worrying about recessions, depressions or financial calamity. Regardless of ones education level being financially responsible is not all that difficult, but trying to play armchair quarterback here with companies that we have no real inside working knowledge of is a bit unrealistic. Hindsight is 20/20. I will agree that the financial mindset of this nation, from the “leadership” in washington, to corporate america to joe six-pack needs a serious rethinking.
I think this is great idea. I am on minivan number four and highway mileage on these has always been good relative to the size of the car. What kills me is the time spent at idle. the diesel will be (avg) 17 times more efficient at idle. Look at all the time you spend at idle now, stop lights,drive thrus waiting outside school, church and activities. This is a winner!
Paul Niedermeyer
It won’t be the 2.8 VM four cylinder as used in Europe. There is no program to make that engine US compliant, which is very expensive. It would either be the VW 2.0 four, which makes up to 170hp in Europe, or the MB V6. Both are US compliant.
So it becomes of question of what is cheaper: Putting a new drive train into the existing platform or getting the already done Euro spec’ 2.8 to meet 2010 US emissions. Could be doable with a DPF and Urea tank.
I would not want one in the 1st model year. The 2005 diesel KJs are notorious for eating their torque converters.
This minivan, in Town & Country trim is exactly what Chrysler needs. They’re beautiful vehicles, and if this system is refined enough in-city and effortless while cruising, it’ll be a knock-out.
Could put the MB R320CDI to rest. Go on, Chrysler.
Do a Challenger next.
I’d buy a Diesel T&C as long as I knew the parent company would be around long enough for me to really put some miles on it.
The minivan market needs something like this, I think Nissan recently announced they would be releasing a new small minivan (smaller than the quest) with a turbo diesel, but I can’t find the link right now.
Diesel will not be more expensive than gas forever, it’s the new diesel regs that have boosted the price and once more refineries come up to speed, the price should come back down below gas.
I have yet to hear a believable explanation of the supply and demand cause and effect here.
The important word above is “here”.
U.S. oil demand has decreased a tiny amount in the past few months but demand in Brazil, Russia, China, India, Indonesia, etc has increased a great deal in the past several years.
We have to start thinking as residents of Earth and not just “here” the U.S.
Incidently, if we start drilling for oil along “our” coast and if we find oil in 5 years or so, guess what? The oil will just be lumped in with oil pumped out of Earth from all oil fields and the oil will go to the highest bidder on Earth.
Supply and Demand and patriotism have no connection.