In The Land of the Free our choice of automobile brands is highly limited. Well, relatively. Dozens of European import brands have long fled our shores, curtailing our automotive freedom of expression. What happened to all those storied marques, such as Alfa-Romeo and Peugeot? And what’s keeping American pistonheads from once again enjoying the forbidden fruit of Europe’s exotic brands?
During the import boom in the fifties, Americans bought everything from Abarth to Zundapp. Sure, service at the gas station/cum Lloyd dealer was an iffy proposition. But eager Americans embraced the delicate and unadulterated European wares. Once in the hands of their hard-driving maintenance-shunning owners, most of them self-destructed exactly three days after their six month warranty expired.
The imports’ first Darwinian lesson: mechanical robustness and dealer support. VW and Mercedes passed with flying colors. Others, like Peugeot and Alfa, survived the great 1960 import implosion, if just barely.
Peugeot (known as the French Mercedes) built durable over-engineered rear wheel-drive (RWD) cars. The 404 was a regular winner of the grueling East-Africa Rally. Reliability, an unusually smooth engine, a velvety ride and comfy seats defined Peugeot.
Alfa built exquisitely beautiful coupes, roadsters and sedans that defined world standard for performance and style. The legendary twin-cam engine and RWD drivetrain was actually pretty solid, thanks to decades-long continuity of development and refinement.
Both of these brands had clearly identifiable and consistent qualities: distinctive RWD chassis, engines that excelled with their respective targets, the best styling money could buy (Pininfarina, Bertone), and top-notch performance. They were the Lexus and BMW of their time. So what happened?
Lexus and BMW.
That’s not the whole answer, but it’s a big part of it. The Japanese and Germans simply applied themselves to the business at hand in a more consistent way. The critical period was the seventies, during of a deluge of US government regulations. Draconian emission, fuel economy and safety regulations threw the whole auto industry into panic mode.
But some kept their heads cooler than others. Many smaller Europeans like Peugeot and Alfa began to founder. Cow-catcher bumpers and a tangle of emission controls ruined Alfa’s sumptuous design and performance. Peugeot’s reputation was destroyed because they couldn’t/wouldn’t properly engineer and integrate new electronics and peripherals.
Germanic engineering prowess and the Japanese system of continuous quality improvements flourished. The German’s long experience with fuel injection allowed them to keep performance mostly intact. Japanese reliability made cars like Peugeot and Alfa look increasingly unreliable, even if they were only standing still (relatively and literally).
Alfa and Peugeot could never get over the attitude of so many other European (think British) imports: America was an easy place to make money, especially when the dollar was flying high. They simply weren’t committed to having the U.S. be a key market. When the going got tough, they retreated to their home markets (or disappeared altogether).
Adding insult to injury, they also changed, for the worse. Alfa and Peugeot went down market in Europe with a full range of smaller, cheaper cars; and both abandoned their RWD platforms.
Peugeots today are frightfully ugly, with gaping maws that make Audi’s deep-throat mouth look positively prim. Peugeots share a range of cheap front wheel-drive (FWD) platforms with Citroen, another totally debased legendary marque. Peugeot competes in the mass-market; they’re NOT known for quality build or any other outstanding features.
Alfa was long assimilated into Fiat, and shares its FWD platforms, engines and other components, along with Lancia (yet another debased legendary marque).
Alfas and Peugeots would be instant dead meat in an effort to return to the US in their current all-FWD form. They’re not nearly distinctive and competitive enough to carve out a sustainable-sized niche. And that’s another key part of the story.
The US market is huge, for better and for worse. The bad part: enormous expenses establishing distributor and dealer networks and high media costs to launch an effective marketing campaign.
And the competition is deeply established. Lexus and other mid-premium brands offer Peugeot no opening. Going up against the Japanese and Korean mass-market brands would be seppuku. Alfa has a similar problem with BMW. The Bavarians never took their eye off the US market, starting with the 2002. The 3-Series is now untouchable.
Hope (and its sister, hype) springs eternal, especially in the car industry. MINI’s overwhelming success in establishing a brand-new import brand will surely feed the hope (and hype) machines.
Alfa rumors swirl through the auto-blogosphere on an almost daily basis. The Mito might make a cute companion in MINI showrooms, although its huge front overhang is disconcerting in the profile. A future range of RWD Alfas is a long-shot. But Peugeot (and current Alfas) joins the ranks of so much other European forbidden fruit that looks appealing from afar, but is rightfully left untouched.
Great Eye Candy
The 504 was a tough car. Not fast but it would go through anything. My friend planted one in a cow field after a 20 foot flight and it was restarted and driven back out.
I’d love to see more Alfas here… When I watch them on Top Gear, I can’t get over how great they look! Even the base mode cars just look incredible.
Nice editorial!
My parents had a beige Peugeot 505 when I was a kid. It was a great looking car and it never gave us any trouble. I was in Buenos Aires earlier this year and saw plenty of 504s and 505s, and they still look good.
I’m not sure if ugly is the word, but today’s Peugeots are definitely overdone. I hope they return to simplier, cleaner designs. I’m not sure how reliable or accurate this is, but AutoExpress had an promising illustration of a new 504.
Good article, this is a fine summary of the situation.
I’d add another issue, which is the US’ unique safety standards that seem to be designed partly to keep out smaller competitors who can’t afford the cost of federalization.
If a company such as Peugeot could take one of its home market cars as-is, drop it (gently) into a container and ship it over, they could flirt with the US market and possibly take the edges. But with the cost of that probably running into the nine figures, they would need to sell a lot of cars just to cover that expense. They’re better off not bothering with it in the first place.
When the Big 2.8 tell you that the US has a completely unprotected market, don’t believe it for a second. But these sorts of protectionist laws are a doubled-edged sword, because they motivate those foreign competitors who do try to succeed here to go full bore and throw a lot of resources into the effort.
When you raise the barrier to entry, those who do enter are strong enough to hurdle the bar. That encourages huge well funded conglomerates to stomp around the US trying to grow their businesses (Hyundai-Kia) while the smaller niche competitors who can’t afford us stay clear.
VW and Mercedes passed with flying colors
Ummm..
I suppose by the standards of the day that’s true. Reliability and infrastructure support aren’t at all good for either brand.
Peugeot (known as the French Mercedes) built durable over-engineered rear wheel-drive (RWD) cars. The 404 was a regular winner of the grueling East-Africa Rally. Reliability, an unusually smooth engine, a velvety ride and comfy seats defined Peugeot.
Alfa built exquisitely beautiful coupes, roadsters and sedans that defined world standard for performance and style. The legendary twin-cam engine and RWD drivetrain was actually pretty solid, thanks to decades-long continuity of development and refinement.
Car aficionados have a funny idea of “durable” that’s pretty divergent from the one the general public holds. I get this a lot when I talk to fellow Saab owners: the cars are strong, tough, reliable, but there’s always the “…if you do the regular maintenance and have a good mechanic” proviso suffixed to it.
I hear the same from Benz, BMW and VW owners. Good cars, good engineering, can perform some impressive feats of endurance…
…but they’re all still maintenance princesses next to Honda or Toyota (or even Ford and GM). Yes, they’re stout and well-engineered, but they’re still relatively expensive to keep up, even today, when compared to those two. Sure, they can run Paris-Dakar with a support team, but they can’t run Home-to-Grocery Store in the hands of a private owner nearly as well. Why is that?
Japanese cars are, if anything, under-engineered. There’s a whole level of complexity missing in a Corolla or Civic that makes it an entirely less expensive proposition to own next to a Jetta because there’s simply so much less to break. The pursuit of technical excellence among the Europeans (or, as I like to call it, Engineering Cock-Fighting) at the expense of sound manufacturing and quality assurance has really hurt them.
And yes, they’ve improved, but so have Toyota and Honda. And Hyundai is coming up behind them. And Ford is doing very well, with GM improving it’s ways as well.
A relative of mine (in Turin) bought his first Japanese car after decades of supporting Fiat and it’s subsidiaries. It was tough to do, but he doesn’t at all miss the prima donna mechanicals of Alfa Romeo et al. I think Europe’s market could start looking more like the US as Toyota et all get more traction.
Yep, with a global markets we need global safety standards and global pollution standards so we the consumer can have whatever we please. Never doubted for a moment that the laws are set up to favor the big three and the entrenched transplants.
So who is our gov’t most responsible to – the corporate players or the consumers?
Frankly I’d prefer an EV but would be happy with a lightweight 3 or 5 door like the Polo or one of the French cars. Yeah they are a bit funky but still like them more than the big hulking domestic products. I’d buy domestic but they’ve got to build what I want to buy. The Astra and the coming Ford compacts are a start.
When you raise the barrier to entry, those who do enter are strong enough to hurdle the bar. That encourages huge well funded conglomerates to stomp around the US trying to grow their businesses (Hyundai-Kia) while the smaller niche competitors who can’t afford us stay clear.
Peugeot, Renault and Fiat are not small companies, so it’s not exactly an issue of capital. There’s good reasons they’re not in a rush to come over here:
* They have no hope of selling mass-market cars. If GM and Ford can’t do it, what chance have they?
* The midrange “nice car” market in North America is dead, squeezed between badge snobbery on the high and some very good mass-market cars on the low end. Volvo and Saab are suffering, VW isn’t entirely healthy and even Acura isn’t holding it’s own. Again, what chance does Fiat or Peugeot have?
* Most importantly, North Americans have much, much higher standards for what constitutes a reliable car than Europeans do. The kind of wanton abuse of customers that’s common in France or Germany will absolutely not fly here; people expect their cars to run ten years without so much a new brake pads or oil changes. Again, Toyota has trouble with that attitude–what would Fiat do?
So, is there a reason a company couldn’t do a slow regional rollout instead of going national all at once? Start in SoCal and move north and east as you get established. Can one sell enough volume to remain viable using such a strategy?
The Bavarians never took their eye off the US market, starting with the 2002. The 3-Series is now untouchable.
Eh, the E21 3-series was a significant bump in the road there, but the latter performance E30’s and subsequent generations have made the car the benchmark for performance, style, cachet, and resale value.
However, I disagree with the ‘untouchable’ remark (and I’m a BMW owner). As others have said, the cars are more fragile and over-engineered with each generation. Also, Infiniti’s G35 was a real shot across BMW’s bow and they’ve kept close, forcing BMW to improve.
Japanese cars are, if anything, under-engineered. There’s a whole level of complexity missing in a Corolla or Civic that makes it an entirely less expensive proposition to own next to a Jetta because there’s simply so much less to break.
Engine block, piston, oil pan, water pump, electronic injection, cams and valves, spark plugs, wheels, steering, suspension, seats, radio, headlight, etc. I don’t think there would be one component found in a Corola not found in comparable VW.
With current safety and emission regulations, all manufacturers are bound to use the same extend of technology to achieve government mandated result. Otherwise, believe me, they would all be happy to serve us cast iron block, carburetor fed gas hogs with 3 speeds transmissions.
I’m just not sure what a civic or corola misses compared to an import from another continent.
They have no hope of selling mass-market cars. If GM and Ford can’t do it, what chance have they?
That’s exactly my point. It’s very costly for Peugeot, Alfa, etc. to even try to sell 10,000 units of a unique niche product that might have a chance of capturing a small piece of the market.
If they came here, they would have to build volume sellers that can compete with the likes of the Accord or Camry, or else build pricier cars that can sell in large volumes against the 3-series.
If they could just take the same cars sold in Europe and stick them a boat, they might try it out, because it would be cheap enough to make the effort. But because a US-specific model must be built, it’s not an effort to be taken lightly. Hence, no cool little unique Alfas or stately Pug coupes for the few Americans who might want them.
I wish we had more choices of automobiles but the europeans left for a reason. They cannot compete with the asians and know it. Better that we should see more asian brands on our roads than european. Even detroit’s brands out perform many of the europeans on reliability and that is truly amazing.
I agree with psarhjinian. Reliability is a bit different for auto afficionados than for the mass market. I’m not quite as bad as most, though. When I talk about my Bimmer I state it is “maintenance intensive” upfront. Even VW is going to struggle mightily with this in its quest to become Toyota. Peugeot and Alfa are dead before they even start, with little to no enthusiast support for their current cars and a bad rep on the reliability front.
Also, I don’t find the Alfa’s to be good looking anymore. I know I’m in the minority here, but those gigantic front overhangs simply ruin the design for me.
I think MINI is great example of the type of “new” brand that can make inroads in the US – distinctive, niche vehicles that sell 10k units a year and piggy-back on existing marque’s infrastructure. Mass market? No way.
VW has been here 50 years and even they are struggling to keep their heads above water because their cars can’t compete with Japan on quality or Detroit/Korea on price.
The plan talked about with Alfa was to bring 2 or 3 top-end models here and sell through the established Maserati/Ferrari network. That would be smart, have good synergy, and the added bonus is that anything under $100k in that showroom looks like a bargain! The dealerships are used to high maintenance cars and customers, too. The worst thing would be try to re-make a “Graduate” model Spider (like the New Beetle) and sell it to college girls for $25k using the same pipeline!
For Renault, Peugeot, Citroen, Fiat or anyone to come over here and (re-) start from scratch would be, as noted, nearly impossible.
I’d kill every one of you for an Alfa 8C.
–chuck
I hear tell the Renault CEO has some pull with Nissan. Renault could easily leverage the Nissan channel. But no, I’m not asking for one.
After the torture that was the Alliance and Fuego, I wouldn’t ask for a Renault either.
Another great article, Paul.
Our family came to Canada in 1959, and as a young car nut, it quickly became apparent to me that the Big 3’s cars were superior to the imports. Austins and Morrises (and the MGs) had engines that struggled to make 30K miles and were hard to start in winter. Just forget Standards, Triumphs and Hillmans. GM’s Vauxhalls were just OK. Minis were a 2 year car before the subframe rusted out. VWs rusted out around these parts — the area in front of the rear wheels and behind the doors used to rust away completely leaving a hole about 18 inches square – you could see the rear suspension. English Fords were a bit better, the Ford Zephyr in particular showed up the Ford Falcon for the tinny piece of junk it was, and so Ford stopped importing them of course.
Citroens died from suspension failure which nobody could fix, but the few Peugeots soldiered on — the 403 was the current model then, but unfortunately for them it looked like a Hillman Minx, a truly epic disaster of a vehicle when removed from it’s rightful home in the UK. Sales were few indeed. The worst foreign car was the Renault Dauphine that rusted when you looked at it and whose engines were absolute crap. Has Renault ever made a decent car, ever?
Hold on, I forgot Fiats. Ha, ha, ha. Crap.
There were obvious winners in the import cars those days, Volvo 544 and 122S models. They had twin SU carbs so moved out well, got well over 30 mpg, started every day without fail in winter, and didn’t rust badly. These cars were old-fashioned design under the skin (copies of 1940s and 50s Buicks sized down, even to the Delco shocks and Dana rear axles), but the only seriously durable import cars around except for Mercedes and there were damn few of those. Volvos cost more but you could see why. The 1967 144S was the death knell of the interesting Volvo.
Yup, in those days, Detroit iron was king, because they were tough old things even when panels rusted, due to that separate frame. Volvo had unitized bodies, but the paint used to be fantastic and they came standard with mud flaps front and rear, so they lasted second best. We had several concurrently in the family. The nearest dealer was 140 miles away clear across the province on two lane roads, and we had no problems at all, just changed the oil and greased the chassis points at local gas stations. Same as Detroit iron in that regard, but much more fun to drive. Damn fine cars.
My recollection anyway.
These days, Euro cars hold no fascination for me for the reasons stated by so many posters. They seem to work well over there, but throw in a few real winters and lackadaisical servicing and then things aren’t so great. For mindless transportation, the Japanese have got the North American market covered, and even I succumbed after 20 years and five new Audis, which in retrospect were also rubbish. Cost me an absolute fortune those things did.
As for modern car styling, my 88 year old mother who was a bit of a car nut in her day and a fine driver, looked at a new BMW 328 today parked illegally in the fire lane outside a Starbucks and opined that it was a truly ugly car. So, Mr. Bangle, you not only attract snobby drivers who think that illegal parking spots only 20 feet from real ones are tailor-made for them, but you also offend some people’s aesthetic sensibilities even in the autumn of their lives!
wmba: “looked like a Hillman Minx, a truly epic disaster of a vehicle when removed from it’s rightful home in the UK.”
Aw, you hurt my feelings. I had a ’59 Minx one year in college. A very conventional sedan except the backwards shift pattern. It had been rolled (though gently, it seems) so the used car lot took $175 for it. (Still too much, I suppose.) A friend helped me slap a bunch of bondo here and there, and spray a coat of spiffy blue paint. It ran dependably, which was a good thing because I was so poor I had to super-glue the exhaust manifold when a bolt broke. The glue held a month or so, if I recall correctly.
The next year I upgraded to a nice ’57 Chevy hardtop. D’oh! I should have kept it.
I agree with the need for single, global regulations, even if Alfa, Renault, et al. could afford to federalize their products. It starts at home, however: we can’t allow California to dictate its own standards.
However, one reason these Euro brands choose not to make the trip over the pond is that they fear going head-on with the Japanese. Duking it out with the Americans is no big deal; they can see the diminishing market share of the home teams. But they sense they would lose big-time against the Japanese.
So why burn money? There’s not enough romance left in the marketplace to sustain a marque like Alfa, and Toyota proves that buyers will ignore good design when voting with their dollars, not to mention enthusiast-grade performance and handling. The French cars would be shamed by the Koreans in reliability.
These second-tier Euro brands have nothing, otherwise, to tempt a large enough number of buyers to make the attempt worthwhile.
we can’t allow California to dictate its own standards.
+1
Good article.
I have to agree with psarhjinian’s comments. Americans have different ideas about reliability (reality based) and most of the French and Italian makes simply wouldn’t make it here. They’ve palyed around in our market before and ruined their reputations.
Talk about perception gap – I don’t care how good a new Renault is, they have to overcome the Reliance and the Dauphine. When your product is seen as less reliable than a GM car, you have some very tough selling to do.
The huge amount of people that buys the Peugeot 206… and made Peugeot keep them in production may differ from your opinion.
Ok, is mostly in developing world. But the car was a hit in Europe too. And I think it was jointly developed with the first generation Yaris, but not sure on that.
Alfa… after they made the 156 things started to look a LOT better. Alfa gas engines are different from Fiat’s. Of course they share a lot of componentry but that’s not bad per se. On this, I agree with you, it’s a shame they went FWD.
Fiat… they’re hella better now.
Renault… cars became “conventional”… at least mechanically
Did Citroen ever have a US dealer network?
Renault name in America is akin to Chevrolets name in Europe. GM showed its fabbed smarts when they decided to rename Daewoo into Chevrolet. This isn’t yet a problem because all Chevrolet sells at the moment are small cars which everybody knows are koreans but this will be a problem when they try to sell mid-size cars because than people can’t tell if they are Korean or American. Renault wont make the same mistake in America. Any Renault car in Amerika will be sold as a Nissan.
About reliability. I believe that this has a lot to do with eating your own dogfood. The people who work for Volvo’s drive Volvo’s so they will make sure that they start in the cold Swedish winter. Fiat, which also has a bad rap in Europe, is made in Italy. You don’t have cold winters in Italy so the need to make sure that it will start in the winter isn’t that pressing. The same is true of rust. In Italy you will have a lot less trouble with rust due to the weather
About Far Eastern reliability:
It is much easier to make a rustproof, reliable car for California than it is to make a rustproof, reliable car for the North East with it harsh, cold winters.
The Japanese started their dealer network in California and used that place to crank up their reliability after which they went after the North East
I know that an Alfa will break down every 30 ft, but every time I see one, I can’t help but stare at how gorgeous it is.
Americans have different ideas about reliability (reality based) and most of the French and Italian makes simply wouldn’t make it here.
I largely agree with that. But to the extent that there would be an opportunity for a niche personal import market, the federalization requirements completely kill that off.
The US used to have such a niche, which produced a wide variety of cars ending up on our roads. Twenty years ago, there was a small but thriving gray market in the United States, and federal regulations killed those off at the behest of the domestic automakers and Mercedes, the latter of which did not particularly like competing with itself.
The only way to play in the US now is to play it big. That requires selling very expensive cars that are worth federalizing (the exotics), importing mass produced cars in large numbers or becoming transplants located somewhere in the NAFTA zone. An ironic byproduct to these protectionist laws is that they ensure the Big 2.8 that their opponents are the strongest in the jungle.
Renault found a workaround to this — they bought Nissan. Not much point in bringing Renault-branded product to the US, when it floundered the last time and when they already have Nissan to do the job.
Having had friends with Renaults and one with a Peugot all I can say is the winters in France must be very mild indeed. The Peugots may have held up well in punishing heat, but winter…nope.
I saw the TopGear review of the Citroen C6 and came away awed. Someone ought to license that amazing suspension. It is the $60k 21st century Buick that GM should have but couldn’t build. Kind of like an ES330 but way more luxe and cooler.
@Rix
Someone ought to license that amazing suspension.
Mercedes did for the 6.9.
matt:
I know that an Alfa will break down every 30 ft, but every time I see one, I can’t help but stare at how gorgeous it is.
And they drive better than they look!
You must ask yourself, do you want a moody Italian supermodel or a Japanese soccer mom? The choice is yours.
Pity this. I like cars, I want a distinctive car, there are none to be had. In the mid 70’s, I had a Fiat x1/9, it was the height of cool, relatively cheap to buy, very rare and exotic at the time of American automotive bronotosauri.
Today, if you want some thing distinctive, you can get a Lotus for a eye watering 60K, that’s about it. Mini lets you customize their product, and I like them, but at the end of the day it’s a Mini in drag. Good effort tho.
There is not a single Japanese car that looks distinctive – there used to be – there is not a single German that does, except the ostentatious Mercedes coupe – sedan. That’s 100K.
Porsche has done a nice job with the Cayman, but sadly out of my price range.
I like the Mustang, but they insist on putting huge engines in them. Won’t do 20 mpg combined these days. Need 40.
Geeze.
Great article Paul, I really do enjoy reading your articles. More please more.
Yes the Forbidden Fruit, very appropriate for the subject, it always looks better than it tastes. While the exotic and unusual was what led many Americans to buy foreign, after their first drive in the summer without an air conditioner made by one of the big three they returned to what Detroit did best. As I recall my Mother saying, “Pretty is as Pretty does!” This sort of sums up the current state of the auto industry.
The Nissan Versa IS a Renault.
It’s a Renault Mégane. Last I heard they were fine cars for their intended purpose – a general purpose commuter car.
Fiat, which also has a bad rap in Europe, is made in Italy. You don’t have cold winters in Italy so the need to make sure that it will start in the winter isn’t that pressing. The same is true of rust. In Italy you will have a lot less trouble with rust due to the weather
That might be true of far southern Italy but north of Rome it still gets plenty cold. South of Rome like in Naples which I called home for several years the weather only dips to freezing occasionally. Any of the higher elevations (even south of Naples) or regions north of Rome gets snow and thus freezing temperatures. These winters range from Michigan winters to Tennessee winters depending on what part of Italy you call home.
Rust is also a concern b/c the whole country is a pennisula except for Sicily and Sardegna which are islands. That’s alot of people living along the salty sea coasts. I’m not sure but I think they also use salt on their mountain roads in the winter.
Look – a modern Fiat is not the same as your 1973 Fiat 131. They’ve got modern designs, modern materials, modern rustproofing, and cars capable of cruising at 100 mph+ for hours. Those early Fiats were just like the VWs – reliant on the chassis paint to lock out the rust. All it took was a few stone chips to break that barrier. Still for many Italians early Fiats represented a real step up up from their previous rides – the city trolley, a scooter, or a bicycle. Fiat in the 50s and 60s were selling to people who after WWII had very little of anything – food, money, or possessions.
I think the modern FIAT is plenty capable of competing with American traffic just fine. Any reasons American’s might not like Fiat might be grounded in their styling, Fiat’s preference for manual transmissions, small engines and small vehicles. That is to say that you can still get a car without air and crank up windows if you like. They also have cars that are Honda nice too.
We Americans too often think we need to drive a living room with seating for a kid’s baseball team to truly have enough vehicle which is truly BS and a complete lack of concern for the economics situation our country is in today. I’d certainly buy a Fiat.
The weaknesses I saw in the old Fiats were common to any car with carburetors back then. Fiat had a very developed engine with multiple carbs in some cases, DOHC engines that would rev to the moon, and sometimes exotic designs with engines in the back or the engine in the front with the tranny in the back (Alfa). These were space ships compared to some of the Conestoga Wagons that Detroit sold year after year (like 150HP V-8 engines in the 5-6 liter range). So the carbs had to be just right to get the most out of the engine and not just any corner mechanic named Larry could adjust them using skills he learned working on a Ford Falcon six. These cars needed tuned a couple times a year. A $20 repair.
The Italian examples did rust and the Italians would patch these cars up time after time in a car’s 20 year lifetime. Rocker rust was common but easily fixed. The real problems came when the A-pillar would detach at it’s base where it connected to the firewall. Nothing like jacking up a Fiat 131 and watching the front box droop. The car I am thinking of was 20 years old and got very little TLC during it’s lifetime, sat outside the entire time and got no love. The driveline was still A+ though. I drove several that had synchronizer problems too in 2nd or 3rd gears. Nothing I would sell a car over – just fix it and you were good for another 100K miles. Balljoints were another issue but that is likely related to the poor roads than the design. Again cheap to fix.
Fiats are alot like scooters and motorcycles in America. In Italy you could buy and maintain a small motorcycle or scooter for cheap. In America these are luxury items and parts are incredibly expensive. Counter-intuitive to me. In Italy Fiats are also cheapo to maintain. Over here you’ve got to make some aftermarket retailer connections to find parts cheap. I’ve had to do the same with my VWs and they are quite cheap to own as a consequence.
Let’s try hard to move beyond the confusion between “I dislike this brands’ cars” and “this car is truly crap”. Okay a car might not be your favorite but that does not automatically make it crap.
For me – I want a reasonable amount of refinement and durability. If it’s going to break from time to time I at least want it to be easy and cheap to repair myself. Not a $3K repair like the CVT tranny in my in-law’s 80K mile Saturn Vue.
Busbodger, I basically agree with you. From reading auto, motor und sport’s excellent 100k km long-term tests, its clear that all European makes have dramatically improved their reliabilty, and everyone has adopted standardized approaches to rust prevention, like galvanized steel, etc.
Nevertheless, Americans have very high expectations of reliability, and any brand that isn’t up to Japanese stanadards will be punished: see VW. And in Europe, VW’s have better than average reliability scores.
@busbodger
The Nissan Versa IS a Renault.
It’s a Renault Mégane.
It’s not. It’s not even on the same platform.
Google “Nissan Versa is Renault” and you will find articles all over the place that range from saying it is the same thing to the Versa is BASED on the Renault.
YMMV…
…which doesn’t make it more true.
The Versa is based on a different Renault platform, the one the “B” Clio (1998-2005) was based on, only with a longer wheelbase.
Another car on that platform is the Dacia Logan.
That platform is 100% unrelated to the one the Megane uses. The Megane is on the C-platform, like the Sentra and Rogue.
Wikipedia leads to the Renault Clio, Nissan Note, Renault Modus, Renault Twingo, Dacia Sandero, etc. etc.
Look up the Renault Mégane and it cross references to the Nissan Tiida which is sold as the Versa in the US markets.
I look forward to the demise of the large American sedans and do hope they are replaced by smaller clever vehicle… It’s what America needs faced with tighter resources and higher prices.
Chris
What’s wrong with full sized sedans? It’s the SUVs that I want gone. Full sized sedans don’t block your view. Full sized sedans don’t have headlights mounted so high that they blind you when you meet them on a 2 lane road. Full sized sedans aren’t tippy and don’t roll over on the slightest curve. SUVs do.
If Wikipedia is wrong, let’s fix the entry.
Oh I see. That’s why the “Versa=Megane” thing keeps on popping up.
But let’s remain on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_b_platform
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_c_platform
Not to mention all the JDM no-nos:
http://japanoid.com/
Right over the border, just two hours away from 50mpg and a unique car.
Pch101-
Exactly. US laws regarding safety, pollution controls, etc., for cars are completely different than Europe’s or anybody else’s. Not neccessarily more strict, but just different. This keeps all the riff-raff out. It’s really expensive, and really difficult, to Federalize a car. This is one of the reasons there are no Chinese cars sold in the US yet. Chinese cars are sold in Europe, for example.
Now, the US market is so huge, that if a company is large and well-run enough, it’s worth the effort, but it certainly does limit competition and acts as a defacto protectionist barrier for less funded and less well-run companies.
“Alfas and Peugeots would be instant dead meat in an effort to return to the US in their current all-FWD form. They’re not nearly distinctive and competitive enough to carve out a sustainable-sized niche.”
This is the key point.
But why should they ?
They all sell cars priced at almost $26K for a car the size of a Chevy Cobalt. How could they do that in the states and make the same money ?
Build them here… Sorry – too easy not to throw that out. VBG! I recongize the cost of setting up operations here though. European car makers could do what VW and other makers have done in South African for years – send in all the parts and just hire the local labor to put them together on assembly lines. Still a big job to do that.
-or-
Design it in Europe, have the parts made in China and assemble it in Mexico.
I don’t want to buy an import that badly – we need the jobs and the business here. Just want the big three to sell a larger variety of their own GOOD products available in other markets HERE and take pride in their smaller products instead of looking down on them.
Yep my career with the big three would last under a month I’d predict… VBG!
When we quote prices on TTAC for European cars not sold here – does this include the myriad of European taxes they have to pay?
My doctor friend in Naples, Italy once explained that that he had to pay a ~30% new car tax when he bought his car. Then there were annual roadtaxes (registration) on the order of several hundred dollars depending on the type of fuel the car burned and the size of the engine. Then there was $5+ gas (early 90s), insurance, maintenance, tires, etc.
Really began to wonder how he could afford a car in the first place – doctor or not. He was a gov’t employee and at the time it equated to about $35K a year.
MINI’s overwhelming success in establishing a brand-new import brand will surely feed the hope (and hype) machines.
I’d be hesitant to use Mini as the example of the successful creation of a new car brand. Sure the car itself is successful, and the branding as a separate identity from BMW is smart, but how long will the Mini ‘brand’ last?
The Mini is a novelty item – just as the PT Cruiser and the VW new Beatle were. Where do you take them after the thrill wears off the original?
Sure, there’s the Mini convertible, and the Clubman, but what is there in 5 years? The brand will die. Either the replacement models of Mini will be too much like the old ones, or not enough like the old ones. Watch for BMW to sell off Mini before this happens.
As for the return of Alfa – we agree. Front wheel drive has killed the deal. I’m not going to give up the 3-series (ugly as it is) for an FWD Alfa.
I used to be an Alfisti – I owned a series of them in the late 60’s and early 70’s. I’d seriously consider a RWD poor-man’s version of the Alfa 8C, but that’s not going to happen.
Finally – There are still too many people alive who remember Renault to let anyone but orphans and idiots whose parents won’t speak to them buy a Renault.
Peugot has a chance, if they bring a simple bullet-proof car and are willing to lose money for 5 years.