Yesterday's autoblogosphere was all abuzz with the Camaro reveal. We meant to cover it, we really did. And we will, with the same sense of urgency GM's shown in this interminable ponycar hypefest. Is it us, or are you, our Best and Brightest sharing a sense of ennui with a car that STILL won't be available until NEXT SPRING? Anyway, from my POV, the story here is that GM is touting the new Camaro's fuel economy. "We'll be promoting the fuel economy story very much," Ed Peper, vice president of Chevrolet, told Automotive News [sub]. "We are 2 or 3 mpg ahead of the competition." Right. So someone contemplating a Mustang, Challenger or Camaro will make their final choice based on fuel economy. Sure, I believe that. "Peper said the V-6 version will get an estimated 26 mpg, while the V-8 version will get an estimated 23 mpg. The V-6 will get 304 hp, while the V-8 will get 422 hp. 'And we are still working on it,' Peper said. He also hinted that a turbo 4-cylinder version could be in the works." So that's that then, yes? We're done here? "GM will disclose a price once the vehicle is closer to production, but Peper said the Camaro will be the 'best value in the sports car segment.'" As for volumes, Camaro product manager Cheryl Pilcher promised "we will build as many as we can sell." Or more!
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sounds like vapourware to me.
Uh oh. Whenever an executive says the “best value” that means that it absolutely will NOT be the cheapest. “Value” is a subjective term, and they will use some “extra features” (+2 MPG?) to try to say that it’s a better “value” for the money to justify the higher price.
They are trying to sell a Camaro-shaped widget. You are correct, this will not come down to a price/value comparison with Mustang and Challenger, it is a Chevy vs. Ford purchase. They are wasting their breath with all this “value” talk.
As long as we’re talking about future vapourish products, lets compare the mpg’s to rumored toyburu coupe or the rebirth of the 240SX, will the camaro still be 2-3 mpg better?
Besides, 2-3 mpg isn’t much to write home about, call me when your diesel pony car is 10-15 mpg better, then maybe I’ll be interested. Or maybe I’ll be driving a RWD Japanese coupe by then with a 4-banger and won’t care about your giant clydesdale I mean “pony” cars.
This is as stupid as all of the BMW commericials I’ve seen recently that talk about nothing but fuel mileage.
“We will build as many as we can sell, and more”
Great news!To us folks on the floor that translates to,more production,some O.T.and more jobs.
Bring it on!
If you have to contemplate MPG when buying a car like this, then I suggest not even considering the purchase.
I know Mustang / Camaro guys that have the cars for their daily drivers and now do nothing but moan and groan on how expensive it is to drive everyday.
As Artie Lange says: “Waaaah.”
GM makes so many mistakes, sigh. For one, they keep hyping products nobody can buy. In technology we call this “Doing an Osborne” after the manner in which the once high flying Osborne Computer company put itself out of business by announcing a product before it was ready and thus killing sales of the existing line.
This quote from Wikipedi is interesting:
“Most technology companies today guard against the Osborne effect by very strictly controlling information. In general, the stronger the market position of a company, the less it will reveal about product plans and pricing. Apple, for instance, have been traditionally, and remain, very tight-lipped about new hardware releases (resulting in a substantial Apple rumors community.)”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect
Really, 26mpg isn’t bad for a sporty car. Sure, in real driving it’ll get 20mpg, but what do you expect. This will be a quick seller at release, but after 6 months or so, everyone who wants one will have one, and sales will join GM’s trucks and SUVs in the little hole for the sump pump in the basement.
Um, was there an announcement about the Camaro? Because I hadn’t heard anything from my bunker at the South Pole.
GM didn’t time this announcement for right after their quarterly earnings announcement for any reason in particular, did they? Not to divert attention from their stellar financial results or anything, right?
Very good Skooter! Very astute!
They appear somewhat healthy for a company on the ropes. I think that I actually see a car in the picture. So “Vaporware?” A bit hopeful.
Have seen some around the streets w/MI manuf plates.
Good thing to tout MPG. Honestly though. GM has “pushed” that pushrod tech beyond what others have done with the 4V stuff. Really nice truck engines.
forget the MPGs. that’s the most goofy “face” i’ve seen on a car in some time.
I’d imagine that most potential customers aren’t waiting for the Camaro to return good fuel mileage, but simply waiting for it to return. Hyping a car for months before it comes out seems totally counterproductive, as it is no longer “news” when it actually hits the streets. Build it first, then announce it just before it comes out.
And the idea that someone will put off buying an Accord, or a Malibu, because the Camaro might get equivalent fuel mileage, seems ridiculous. It seems highly unlikely that someone shopping for a RWD 2+2 is considering anything other than a Mustang or Challenger in this segment, and even more unlikely that the decision to buy will be based on EPA numbers.
Then again, marketing genius like this is what got GM in this place to begin with…
I think it’s good to see GM taking steps towards “fuel economy” even if it is the “sports car” sector. I know my 300hp car (293 corrected) is 18/24 with a real world mixed of 20. Max I’ve ever gotten is 25.
“Rated” 26, I might be able to get 28-30 out of it.
Look, no one really cares about the fuel economy of this car; if they did, they’d be buying a base Cobalt or Civic coupe. Two to three miles per gallon on a car of this type isn’t going to faze intenders one way or the other.
I’ve never understood the use of fuel economy is comparisons of sports cars. There’s a perennial debate (S2000 vs Corvette) where this is brought up constantly, and the only thing I can bring myself to think is “why should I give a damn?”.
In commodity cars, sure. You’re making a practical choice and have to weigh these kinds of things (packaging, economy, NVH). With a sportscar you’ve already thrown practicality out the window, so why start worrying about it now?
Once again, GM is damned if they do and damned if they don’t. If they don’t exceed their competitors’ MPGs, then they built an irrelevant gas guzzler. If they do and dare mention it, they are talking about the wrong advertising message.
I’m pretty damn impressed by what I’ve seen of the Camaro so far. The interior looks a lot better than the Challenger SRT8 I just spent five days testing, plus it will likely be thousands cheaper, faster, lighter – AND far exceed the 13/18 EPA ratings that the Challenger sports. Sounds good to me.
Yeah,wer’e starting to see some of the new robots
and very high tech automated equipment being installed.
A lifetime spent in car/truck/stamping and I,ve never seen anything as advanced as the new Camaro/flex plant.
I,ve witnessed maybe 20 launchings in my time.The man hours and equipment involved is unbelievable.
Take a drive to dealer and see the build quality of a Silverado[should have no problem finding one]
Take a close look at fit,finish,fender to door,surface,paint,and overall appearance.
The Camaro will be built by the same people,the same way.
GM going bankrupt soon? I don’t think so.
They aren’t bankrupt yet. You don’t want to go into Ch. 11 completely broke. You will never make it out. You have to have money left to pay lawyers and help gain capital to restart the company with. If you wait until there isn’t anything left, you are going Ch. 7 and it’s a fire sale. Bye Bye GM.
Also, isn’t it a little late in the game to be adding engine options? I mean, the car is coming out in a year. Is this something that will be an option in the second or third year if GM lasts that long? It just seems like they are running around like a chicken with their head cut off a lot lately with all their corporate speak and press conferences. Even Chrysler doesn’t seem as desperate.
Mikey,
Looks like you got your mojo back! Hope it carries over to the rest of GM.
“We will build as many as we can sell, and more”
Isn’t that part of their problem now? They’ve got more product than they can expect to reasonably sell?
mikey
Take a close look at fit,finish,fender to door,surface,paint,and overall appearance.
Although it was the previous generation (2006 or 2007MY?), but my friends (GM engineer) Silverado’s hood to grille gap was a good 5mm different side to side. I had to adjust the stopper for him to align it correctly. Although not a major fit/finish issue, this should’ve never left the factory in this condition.
I guess a better point to be made about all the hoopla around the Camaro is when was this thing first announced? And now the release date is in 2009?
And GM thinks they can get the Volt with a hybrid power train out the door faster why? how?
As for bankruptcy, look at the books folks, not what they are showing. A business will never admit it until it has already filed.
The base V6 has the same power output as the Mustang GT V8 and should return around 3 more mpg. The SS will produce 422 hp and probably get around 6 more mpg than the equally powerful SRT8.
While I’m not a huge fan of the styling details and the car will do almost nothing to change GM’s financial situation, color me impressed. Fuel prices are high, it’s not a Camry, blah blah blah… this looks like a car done right which GM should at least be given credit for.
The target audience for these cars is bleeding money right now. Paying less for a tank of gas is a selling point in most vehicle categories other than supercars. Downmarket sports cars are no longer exempt.
A) Yes I am a bit tired of hearing about the release of the Camaro, but I was tired from my first look at the concept car, which I thought was ugly. I never could understand the hype, love, and adoration surrounding this car. I do think they improved the appearance of the production vehicle versus the concept car, but it still isn’t the eye candy that the latest generation of Mustang was and is.
2) You are right that people who buy this type of car are not interested in mpg, or at least, not very interested. They buy based on bang for the buck. It’ll be a comparison based on hp, torque, acceleration, and price. If GM is able to keep the price in line with the Mustang’s and given that the “base” V6 variant has approximately the same power and, I would assume, performance as the Mustang GT, it should take a respectable bite out of Mustang sales.
C) Does this launch remind anyone of another recent GM vehicle launch? Malibu? They were advertising that car during practically every commercial break it seemed months before it was available. I hope that they can contain themselves on the Camaro and time the advertising with the actual release of the vehicle. Going back to the Mustang, does anybody remember the attention the new design got? It seems to me that was a well timed release, as it was just before the actual car hit the dealer lots, if I remember correctly. In Ford’s case, the problem was poor product mix, based on the assumption that demand for the V8 variant would be light, which it wasn’t. Dealers ended up offering discounts on the V6 Mustangs while charging a premium on the GT. Really, not good for Ford or the dealers. Hopefully, GM will have a better read on the market, which I think will be heavy towards the V6, given the price of gas and the power that the V6 is capable of producing.
Definitely Chevrolet has milked the pending Camaro launch to freaking death. So the g-string is now completely off this two year titty bar act, but like a pole dancer, still no touchee, not even a lap dance for at least another 6 months. WTF?
Beyond the initial frenzied sales driven by the hard core baby boomer Camaro fanatics, can’t see this car blowing the roof off the sales charts. Its looks are polarizing, and no matter how the Chevy spin meisters try to pole dance around it, you just don’t buy these cars for every day gas mileage.
Mikey, high five? I always wanted a Camaro, and this is pretty much everything I dreamed of. Even GM needs a moment in the sun every once in a while, and the Camaro is that moment. I’ll be at the Chevy dealership next spring, and I’ll be shredding tires with the best of ’em.
I’m interested in the car but I will pledge not to purchase one if they taint the name with a four cylinder engine in the range.
Four cylinders + 3,700lbs + Camaro name/40 years of V8 heritage = a recipe for utter failure.
I buy cars like this for the style and V8 performance, I do not buy them for fuel economy (though in my opinion it isn’t intolerable at all).
I also drive an LS2 manual car every day to work and back and I’m only filling it once per week, it’s hardly painful. Not like the people who drive Tahoes and Tundras daily and are looking forward to $100 fillups while piloting a floppy tank on our roads.
Olivehead the Camaro has the most goofy face you have ever seen?What!your living somewhere where nobody owns a Toyota?
This is the only brand new car I’ve ever wanted to buy. I won’t, of course because buying new is like flushing greenbacks. Wish they would’ve put it in production sooner for that reason. Can’t wait to get my Camaro in 2012 or 2013!!!
Well, the Asian brands are all releasing 4cyl RWD coupes in the future. They clearly read the market better than GM, as usual.
People don’t want a meager 26mpg hwy. They want 30mpg.
GM should just release the Camaro with its excellent 2.0L turbo. Dump the 6cyl. Maybe release 5000 8cyl copies/yr. That way, they’d regain the youth market and the female market (lost to Scion, Honda, etc.)
This whole Camara thing is a fiasco. First, the thing has gone on so long, by today’s standards it will be due for a refresh the year it’s launched. Not to mention their efforts to generate hype are getting lamer and lamer (t-top version coming soon.) And it is going to be THIRD to market in the muscle car segment in an era of $4.00/gallon gas. The last time Detroit did something similar, it was the Challenger/Barracuda/Cuda – expensive collector’s items today because they didn’t sell for shit when they were new.
mikey Says:
July 22nd, 2008 at 11:10 am
“Olivehead the Camaro has the most goofy face you have ever seen?What!your living somewhere where nobody owns a Toyota?”
No, that would be the new Acura TL. That grill looks like someone traced the outline of a shovel for the design, gaack!
MPG matters at the margin – but all economic activity of interest occurs at the margins. Ease up a bit, this might result in stealing a bit of market share away from Mustang owners (or Eclipse owners…)
Sounds like the Camaro will be getting the direct injection V6 from the CTS.
Is the guy in front of the car in the photo doing the limbo?
What I am REALLY tired of is mpg stated as highway only. Then, to add insult to injury, they brag about HP.
That’s like your friend fixing you up with a date that has a “pretty face”. Note, she is not attractive, she just has a “pretty face”. Or how about for you ladies, your friend fixes you up with a guy who has a big chest. No, he isn’t strong, his belly is even bigger.
What I want to know about efficiency is highway AND city. I spend much more time driving city. And I really don’t care how many ponies. How many times have you gotten in a car with lots of HP and found out it that other than I nice kick it had no other good features?
Thats a nice looking car. They should stick it in a movie or something to build hype right before it launches.
Landcrusher wrote:
What I am REALLY tired of is mpg stated as highway only.
Amen. When I hear someone giving me freeway mpg only, the first think that comes to my mind is “lying sleezeball salesscum”. Not the way I want to start my next automotive purchase.
The Vette gets 26mpg with a stick-shift…
The Vette gets 26mpg with a stick-shift…
…when driven like a grocery getter. This is why fuel economy numbers for cars like this are useless. If you have a Corvette, are you really going to drive it like an EPA tester?
If so, why did you buy a Corvette? Why not buy a Camry Solara and be done with it?
After the first wave of buyers then what? I guess GM will do the what Ford does with the Mustang. Let’s make a super limited edition. Next year let’s make a super, super, limited edition. In the third year, it’s gonna be three times a super limited. Camaro buyers don’t have fuel economy on the mind.
I think it’s a beautiful car. It looks like sex on wheels to me. And it looks like they even did the base model right(instead of neutering it like Ford did… where’s the 3.7 liter DOHC V6 Mustang?). How about making a Cobalt that looks this distinctly American with hot styling and high tech powertrains? GM wouldn’t be in trouble if it could make ALL of it’s vehicles like this instead of just the niche products. The Corvette has always been a good car. The Camaro looks to be a good car as well. But to survive they need the Aveo, Cobalt, Impala, etc to be just as good…
limmin, did you forget that GM is releasing a four cylinder, RWD, Solstice coupe next year?
GM has a slew of four cylinder cars on the market for people that care about fuel economy, maybe even performance. The Solstice, the Sky, the Cobalt SS turbo and the new (and strangely appealing and versatile) HHR SS turbo. Even the Astra is a nice little driver’s car.
That’s quite a few more four cylinder performers than V8 performers. It’s about time they threw something to those of us that love V8s.
Amen lzaffuto, my issue with the Cobalt, Cruze and other Chevrolets is that they all lack the styling verve and heritage of the Corvette and the new Camaro.
If GM replaced the Cobalt with a compact called the Nova and gave it evocative styling and their new 1.4L and 2.0L turbo engines in an SS geared to enthusiasts I can guarantee you would hear a lot about it in the press and it could make a splash in the compact market where GM’s Japanese “me-too” Cobalt failed.
Me thinks this thing is going to canabalize the sales of the corvette … any thoughts?
Also, maybe this car (and high gas prices) will drive down the cost of used corvettes (I’ll take a 2005 in black, thx).
The Vette gets 26mpg with a stick-shift…
Like it or not the fact that a 436hp, v8 equiped car, weighing a good 3400lbs can manage 26mpg is GREAT! Lets also not forget about the tires and gearig on this thing either!
The majority of v6 powered family sedan has about the same mpg ratings.
What the 26mpg rating means is that the Vette is still a viable option today unlike many other high performance cars that can NOT even manage 20mpg! Yes, you can still use your Vette as a everyday car and get about the same milage as your smug looking neighbor with his Honda Accord!
On top of that the damn thing can be filled up with good ole regular gas!
What Chevy is doing by putting the EPA rating for the new Camaro is to let folks know that even with todays gas prices a v8 powered Camaro will be just as efficient as many mid-sized wannabe sport sedans!
rob:
The Camaro has almost always been nearly as fast as the Vette, but heavier and worse-handling. I don’t see anything changing with the latest gen. I don’t see it impacting Vette sales that much, if at all
whatdoiknow1:
The Vette can do even better than 26mpg on the highway, it’s pretty easy to get 28-30 mpg, especially if you drive near the speed limit. I’ve gotten 25 easily over 500+ miles in my 2006 (with a stick) while never even coming close to the speed limit (e.g. a steady 80-90 with occasional blasts up to 110-130)
I wouldn’t say that you can get the same mileage as an Accord in “everyday use” though, especially if your commute doesn’t consist entirely of highway miles with little to no traffic. Mpg decreases exponentially in city traffic. I get about 11mpg in town, although the streets in Boston are terribly designed and the vast majority of cars would return atrocious mileage during my daily commute
Trishield, you’re correct about the RWD Solstice coupe. I think it might be available as we speak.
However, its main flaw is that it’s too small for me. I don’t fit in the thing. Legs too long. Belly too fat. Whatever.
The upcoming Asian RWD coupes may have the same problem. However, I think the Japanese brands have been more receptive to the reality of large American butts (like mine)…..while the Solstice is rather a “boutique” car with less utility and mass appeal.
That’s why I want the (larger) Camaro to offer a 4cyl.
when did it become acceptable to quote only your highway MPG as the car’s MPG performance? I noticed it recently when GM started talking about all their “30 MPG” cars and trucks that get “over 20 MPG” or whatever. right. BS.
The base V6 has the same power output as the Mustang GT V8 and should return around 3 more mpg. The SS will produce 422 hp and probably get around 6 more mpg than the equally powerful SRT8.
I wonder if this will be like in the 80s, when the V6 camaro was approaching mustang GT performance. Didn’t seem to matter, since I believe the mustang always outsold the Camaro, and continued production until now, whereas the Camaro died what, 10 years ago?
A modern interpretation of the Corvair — complete with coupe, sedan, wagon and van versions would be more applicable to 2010 market realities than is this revival of the Camaro.
Oh yeah, and the “value” proposition means it is going to be priced thousands over the Mustang.
Guess what folks, the ‘stang can serve the entire retro-muscle-car market just fine on it’s own.
Market windows are a real phenomenon, and the window for this vehicle closed not long after it stared in the Transformers movie.
optic Says: “when did it become acceptable to quote only your highway MPG as the car’s MPG performance?”
I have been curious about that as well. I could have sworn that when the EPA fuel economy standards were developed, one of the rules was that both city and highway numbers had to be advertised if there was to be any mention of fuel economy. However, looking at the latest Federal regulations in this regard shows that quoting either, neither or both is legal. The present document shows a reference to [60 FR 56231, Nov. 8, 1995], so since at least 1995 this has been legal. I don’t know if my earlier recollection is wrong or if the rules changed. In any case, very few people spend the majority of their driving time doing “highway” miles.
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=2619bc4d757c68e9b57ad4531380f74f&rgn=div5&view=text&node=16:1.0.1.2.23&idno=16
I’m still waiting for the logical progression of advertising about the rest of the GM lineup.
“The new Chevy Corvette, the largest, most comfortable 2-seat roadster on the market, with class leading trunk space”
“The Chevy Volt, with the highest payload and towing capacity of any plug-in electric PHEV car in America!”
“The Chevy Silverado, the most aerodynamic pickup truck you can buy.”
“The Chevy Tahoe Hybrid, the most fuel efficient large SUV in America”
(Oh wait, they do use that last one)
LOL 2-3 mpg! Ya, I can get that too driving any competitor’s car slower.
Forget 2 MPG, I’m impressed that an accountant (John the Accountant) is a Howard Stern fan…
23 HWY MPG? My 350Z w/306 HP gets 26 HWY MPG.
I have been curious about that as well. I could have sworn that when the EPA fuel economy standards were developed, one of the rules was that both city and highway numbers had to be advertised if there was to be any mention of fuel economy…
You are absolutely correct. Cars used to mention both numbers, with the city value circled or highlighted in one way or another. I just looked through an old Popular Mechanics magazine that was touting the mileage of the new 1976 Chevrolet Impala. “How efficient is today’s Chevrolet? Very efficient with a 13 MPG CITY 18 MPG highway.” Nice numbers…just like today’s fullsize SUV’s. Seems to me we’ve come full circle…
kjc117 Says:
July 22nd, 2008 at 9:55 pm
23 HWY MPG? My 350Z w/306 HP gets 26 HWY MPG.
Yes, and at 23 MPG the Camaro has 420 horsepower.
At your 26 MPG, the Camaro has 300 horsepower. You know… from a mid 3 liter DOHC V6 much like yours. Odd how that works.
So, you can lord those 6 horsepower over the V6 Camaro boys and brag about those 3 MPG to the V8 Camaro drivers.
Have fun with that.
golden2husky,
To have gone full circle, we would have had to have left. We never did. It’s more no change than full circle.
The difference? With an SUV, you get lots more fuctionality and longevity along with your luxury. I say it’s an improvement.
OTOH, if certain folks with certain ideologies had never demonized the luxury car, maybe more people would be driving them, and getting better mileage than they are now in their SUV’s.
Hmmm. What will we come up with after the SUV?
Robotic minivans that look like normal minivans, but only seat four in reclining captains chairs? With hybrid labels?
I am amazed by the mpg figures quoted. If a vehicle received similar reccommendations here in the UK it would bomb. At current fuel costs this equates to some 18 gb pence a mile or 36 cents. A round trip from my home to London whic a year ago cost me £60 GBP would now cost £110 GBP, the equivalent of 220 dollars to travel 620 mile. Thes vehicles are a deffinate no no for the UK market
The fact that GM generates the most buzz about niche cars that don’t exist yet is a bad sign for the company.
The whole thing smacks of the Attention Deficit Disorder that is commonly critiqued here. By the time that it arrives, we’ll all be bored of it. The general public won’t even know that they’re supposed to pay attention to it.
If they actually sell any, they’ll be taking sales away from Ford and Chrysler, instead of from the transplants who pose the greatest threat to their survival. Ironically, this car would prove to the American consumer once again that Detroit is only capable of building gas guzzling trucks and V8 coupes, and is not their place to shop for practical, useful efficient transportation.
That damage having been done, GM corporate will move on to the next flavor of the month, flogging the still non-existent Volt or whatever they have dreamed up whil forgetting all about the car that actually exists. Is it really any wonder that these guys don’t make any money?
The Camaro will most certainly be a great sports car value once the hype is over and dealers lay on the incentives. What’s the resale value on a GTO these days?
I don’t see the problem with GM’s propaganda machine for touting the base Camaro’s fuel economy. BMW does the same thing, even though you would think someone who can afford a BMW can afford bad gas mileage.
Areitu,
Do you have an example? I heard a Bimmer ad today. It was touting “average” not highway.