I'm not talking about Hugo Chavez-style ownership. My question was inspired by the rumor that China's Chery might be buying Volvo. Is this a big deal? Despite Ford's worst efforts, Volvo didn't lose too much of its Volvoness when Ford CEO Jac the Knife won the Swedish automaker in a game of bondtolva. Volvos are still [presumably] safe, boxy and not intended for hoons. Of course, Ford almost bought Ferrari, which surely would have strangled the fabled Italian marque in Dearborn's corporate tentacles. And Saab lost its soul the moment GM breathed on it. But how about Rolls-Royce? I say the company is better than ever under Bimmer's tutelage. Audi's done a bang-up job with Bentley and Lamborghini, too. The world didn't stop turning when India's Tata Motors bought Land Rover and Jaguar. And the fact that a group of Saudi businessmen own Aston is no impediment to the brand, apparently. So what's the big deal about a Chinese automaker buying Volvo? Anything? Everything?
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What was the old Texaco jingle? Might work for China, no?
You can trust your car to the man who wears the star…
Depends how it’s done. Tata owning Jag is irrelevant if Jag continues to keep making cars in the UK. Saab got screwed because they were forced to use generic GM platforms and so could never keep up with their more focused market rivals (BMW, Merc etc.).
But I imagine the whole reason the Chinese are looking at Volvo is to get a recognized nameplate and access to some modern technology, which they will then ship over to China and continue building everything there with cheaper labor (as they did with the carcass of Rover). That’s a completely different prospect.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
After a bit of cropping I now have a new opening screen picture for my computer.
About time for my 8th trip to Asia.
At the risk of sounding touchy-feely (perish the thought), I think it matters a great deal. National ownership– when accompanied by national control and geography– creates distinctive products.
I think that designers’ and engineers’ cultural references informs their work in tangible ways. Back before the great international gobble-up, Volvos and Saabs were uniquely, distinctively Swedish. Now, in the first case, not so much; in the latter, not at all.
When I first drove an Alabama-built Mercedes I was appalled. It felt and drove about as much like a German car as a Chrysler. (Odd that.) While it’s exponentially better than it was, I still can tell the difference between an echt German car and the American derivatives.
At the risk of inflaming someone, I can also tell you that my Honda Odyssey is not what I call a “proper” Japanese car. It creaks and groans more than any imported car I’ve ever driven.
There are more examples. Suffice it to say, cars are the literal embodiment of their creators’ values.
Meh –
I had a 2003 CR-V built in the UK, and my aunt bought a 2004 CR-V and it was built in Japan. I drove mine quite a bit for a while, and drove hers occasionally – twice on long trips. Never noticed a creak, groan, or imperfection in either. It’s like they were carved out of one solid piece of metal. Even that huge rear cargo door didn’t seem to compromise structural integrity.
In my typically obsessive fashion, I always subscribe to TSBs for cars I own, and I did see a TSB for UK made CR-V’s about being assembled with one strut spring positioned incorrectly which didn’t apply to Japanese built models. Other than that, the TSB’s were the same regardless of country of origin.
But it’s an interesting thought – my brother bought a pair of Odysseys last year, a new 2007 and a used 2003. They both drive “Honda solid”, but I haven’t checked the VIN for country of origin on them.
Jaguar and Aston Martin remain British car companies operating in Britain and run primarily in Britain.
Now instead of sucking money out of Ford they’re sucking it out of their new owners. Like someone else already mentioned, it depends on how it’s done but in this instance it doesn’t really seem to matter.
Now the ownership of MG Rover by Nanjing is a whole other story…
I’m beginning to feel compelled to comment on the “nice pictures” more and more of late…I guess you’ve found the hook that works for me!
But in my defense, even the guy in the background seems quite dazed and confused!
Robert, I’ve heard your Mercedes/Odyssey complaint many times with other manufacturers’ cars, too.
I don’t know if my Z3 was a “real BMW” or if my Miata was a “real Mazda”, but both were good cars, better than any GM I’ve ever owned (never owned a “newish” Chrysler or Ford, so I can’t comment on them).
Ownership doesn’t matter as long as the brand is left alone. Case in point, Jaguar.
Tata PLEDGED to keep production in the UK, use British managers and fund new models. They want to keep the brand intrinsically British.
Now compare that with SAAB.
Enough said…..
Despite Fords official “Volvo is not for sale…but what’ll you give me for it?” act, all the speculation and buzz about it (and GM dropping some brands, as well) make it clear that anything is possible. Volvo adds some credibility to Ford, in my opinion. When I purchased my Mazda3 a few years ago, the shared safety “DNA” with the Volvo S40 (and the European Ford Focus) was a definite plus. I’ve heard similar comments about the Ford Five Hundred/Taurus- being based on the Volvo S60/S80 platform, the Five Hundred earned 5-star front AND side-impact crash test ratings WITHOUT optional side-impact airbags! I have spoken to several people who bought the Five Hundred because “it’s as safe as a Volvo, but a lot cheaper”.
For might pick up some much-needed cash if the sold Volvo now, but the much-harder-to-quantify loss might end up costing them even more over the long haul!
The Swedes must despise us!? GM has done everything possible to bastardize SAAB ($40k+ TrailBlazer with a SAAB snout and 9-7x badge??? I couldn’t even make this stuff up!). The badge-engineered 9-2x (Subie Impreza) was another brilliant flop. I wonder if they ever considered a SAAB-branded version of the “quirky” Saturn Ion? lol
I have to give Ford some credit for not f’ing with Volvo. I’m not so sure that this was a conscious business decision, though. Ford doesn’t even bother to restyle or significantly update their own models. Volvo keeping it’s own identity is simply because complacency is Ford’s “Job ONE”! =)
What is the big deal if lambo is owned by VW group or seat for that matter. No big deal as long it has nothing to do with american car companies, because I have never ever in my lifetime or books noticed any marriage between Us car manufacturers and a foreign car company that would yield the latter anything in long term. US companies always leave behind them rotting carcasses of once proud national companies starving them of quality and diversity R&D money. What has Ford brought to Volvo? nothing, just shuffled underneath japanese platforms ,trannies, and engines.Us companies, being usually cheap rides, have no idea of national tastes or specialties in car segments. Alabama built merc M-klass almost ruined mercedes brand in 1996. Such a devastating quality it had.Gm attempts to sell Trailblazer as northern Saab, or then again sell opel as saab, or even Subaru as Saab has proved Gm`s complete lack of anything to give to other companies.
Each country specializes in certain segments, and each country is recognized for that, swedes for safety, japanese for technology, germans for luxury and brits for overpriced luxury for those who didn`t have to sweat for money. Us companies specialize in what? So american cars are famous for…? Exactly,not much.
probably brand origin matters, because people associate themselves with nations and take pride in their best manufacturers. Unfortunately there are some big countries, for which rules of honesty don`t matter and if they can`t make it, they fake it. So they sell foreign cars and call them domestic.
guys, can you name me one US-built, Us -company engineered coupe that would be able to compete with, say, Hyundai Coupe? (Yes, that hyundai, your fathers laughed at saying it would distill in rain if left outside.)Who is laughing now?
How many non-korean parts or rebadges can you find within hyundai?
Since Volvo AB share rights to the Volvo brand I wonder do they have any preemption rights in the event of a sale of the car business? I haven’t seen anything on that.
Homer Simpson: “Do you come with the car?”
Model: “Oh, you! Hee hee hee.”
It would be interesting..I think..to check out what has become of Rover since its sale to the Chinese.
I haven’t read or heard a word about it.
I’m with KatiePuckrik here. Tata had the right mindset when they decided to keep Jaguar and Land Rover (they also own Land Rover, right?) purely British. Also, I should point to VW/Audi’s ownership of Lamborghini for further evidence, and how they’re flourishing under 10 years of German ownership.
The problem is that it’s China, a country who’s government people are very uneasy with, and for good reason. I try not to buy anything Chinese, but it’s pretty hard not to.
I like the style (maybe not material or execution) of Lincoln interiors. I wonder if Toyota (or even I) owned Lincoln, American tradition may be gone. all’s well that ends well, I guess.
OK I have to drop in and comment on this one!
I personally like cars to have the character – yes character – their national origin.
I have a very cool book called the 1967 World Car Catalog.
In it, you’ll find some fascinating cars.
Dutch cars (DAF) with rubber band automatic transmissions for a people who so quickly came out of the rubble of WWII in the late 1950’s that they skipped from bicycles straight to light cars, and often had no driving experience so DAF engineers took the clutch and shift work out.
Volvos and Saabs are funky – and Swedish through and through (except for the new Ford-Koln V4 in the Saabs, that is).
Italian cars are either little glorified four wheeled scooters like the Fiat 500, or exotica like the Maserati Quattroporte, for example.
Japanese cars are small, precise and starting to gain quality in time to sneak up on competitors over the next 40 years. Long term planning is in evidence already. The “licensed design” phase is nearly over, with the Renault Dauphine-like Hino Contessa about to meet the Toyota chop house knife (Hino – in the Toyota orbit – soon switched to only making medium and heavy trucks, which were always their specialty).
French cars are just plain weird, but characterful and practical.
British cars are set in their respective ways, with cottage industry auto makers well in evidence (then as now).
German cars exhibit quality no matter the price point, and are unique between brands. A Mercedes is not confused with an Audi or a BMW. Each has their own qualities. No clones of each other’s cars.
Russian and East European cars are lumpen, backward, unreliable and simply bad poor cribbed designs. Kind of like Chinese cars now.
American cars were oversized, overweight, poorly engineered, flashy and essentially arrogantly self-considered to be the “world’s best” (Cadillac, anyone? – “Standard of the World”?)
Now I want to share the little secret that Toyondissan don’t want to talk about.
Japanese designed Japanese brand cars are better than American and European designed Japanese brand cars.
Japanese manufactured Japanese designed Japanese brand cars are better than “other country” manufactured Japanese designed Japanese brand cars.
The best cars overall “generally” seem to be Japanese engineered AND built. Such as –
Toyota Prius. Despite it’s EXTREME complixity (which makes the Ferrari look like a Model T in comparison), it’s been found to be the most reliable automobile in the market pretty much worldwide for some while now.
Subaru Forester. Reliable, steady, well built, affordable. Carries a ton of “stuff” as needed, pretty much drives like a car, and has the room of an idjitmobile (aka SUV). Just flat terrific. (Or is that “boxer” terrific?)
Mitsubishi Evo. Fantastic. Not my personal choice, but very very well thought of worldwide.
Pretty much the worst vehicle I’ve been in recently was a 2002 Alabama built Mercedes SUV that a buddy bought used a few weeks ago. He’s admitting it was a total screw up. The car was a virtual amateur-mobile. I’ve seen model kits with better quality interiors. Now I know where late Chrysler products got their “inspiration.” It handled the road with all the apolomb of a drunken sailor accidentally entering a nunnery. It twitched, rolled, wobbled, weaved. Hell, sneeze in that thing and you’re liable to end up ass-over-teakettle in the trees or ditch. Considering the gasoline that it drank, again, like a drunken sailor, it had less power than a Zimbabwean voter.
@RF
Anecdote. I can say the same sort of thing about the ’87 Chevy Celebrity wagons my brother and my parents had. My parents hung onto theirs for 140k, it did pretty well. My brothers was nickling and diming him to death by the time it got close to 100k, and he junked it. Now, the parental Celeb was a 4cyl with the Eurosport suspension option; my brothers a six without. But I think it’s more likely the parental one went down the assembly line on a better day of the week. Nonetheless, a pair of cars does not a randomized conrolled trial make.
“it had less power than a Zimbabwean voter”
HAH!
I have to admit, and I feel a bit guilty in some way, that, when I picked up our new Honda Fit, I was pleased with the note on the window that stated the car was 100% made in Japan.
Also in the “garage”, and when I say “garage” I mean the cars are parked in the street but the bike is in the ye olde garage, is an ’81 M-B 240D (all German) and an ’06 Ducati Multistrada 620 Dark (all Italian – er, well, I’m sure there are some out-sourced asian parts in the mix on that one).
An all Axis garage.
Why do I care?
At this stage in their economic development, the Chinese are too interested in turning a quick buck without considering long-term consequences, and not inspired enough to care about manufacturing quality or customer service, to be entrusted with stewardship of a European car company.
Maybe one day, they’ll be ready, but not yet. They have the money, but they don’t have the management vision to make it work. I wouldn’t dream of buying a Volvo built under Chinese management.
# 240d Says:
July 10th, 2008 at 12:11 am
“I have to admit, and I feel a bit guilty in some way, that, when I picked up our new Honda Fit, I was pleased with the note on the window that stated the car was 100% made in Japan.”
One of the deciding factors (and there were several) in choosing my Mazda3 was the fact that it was the only car in its class that was/is manufactured solely in Japan!
I don’t feel the slightest bit of guilt about it! I have a very deep respect, even reverence, for the Japanese people, their way of life and their work ethic. I have more confidence in a car that is built under their supervision and on their turf. =)
I’ve owned nine cars prior to my current Mazda and all of them were Hondas (CRXs, Civic and Accords). Eight of them were built in Japan, but my ’96 Accord was made in Ohio. To my dismay, but not really surprising, that Accord was plagued with multiple very un-Honda-like gremlins throughout the three years I owned it. I have no apologies for wanting a superior product…and a Made in Japan sticker inspires a lot more confidence in me as a consumer.
Those of you in the know, know. Those of you who don’t know, now will.
If you want a Japanese manufactured car, the first place in the VIN number (on 1981 and newer cars, and visible through the windshield) will be the letter J.
No I’m not ashamed to want a better product, either. I work very hard for my money and I’m I would frankly rather buy something made well, and pay extra for the quality, instead of a POS – and pay less.
For some 30 years, I bought “American branded” cars and after getting stung time after time (Yeah, I guess I’m just a slow learner) – and having Mexican made k r a p p foisted off as US (1999 Dodge Neon) I essentially gave up and went off to buy South Korean and Japanese cars.
Ironically, the South Korean and US co-designed and Alabama built 2007 Hyundai Sonata that my wife leased has been a very good car and better than the 2002 Sonata we bought, which was South Korean built.
So perhaps not all is lost for the US, since the South Korean unions seem bent on self-destruction even more so than the Canadian and US auto unions, and Hyundai constantly has had strife with their workers for 15-20 years in South Korea. I also have to say that the US designed 2009 Sonata refresh is VERY VERY nice.
BTW the “British” auto industry is now a cottage industry ONLY. So I strongly suspect that since the US auto industry is rapidly going down the same chute, within 40 years (heck, within 5 or 10) the US won’t have a US owned auto industry. Unless you count the Toyota, Honda and Nissan stock owned by millions of Americans, of course.
National ownership should only matter to zenophobes and bigots.
And anyway, Budweiser might actually turn into beer when the Belgian brewmasters show up.
I’m okay with Volvo being sold, just NOT to the Chinese. I just see them completely decimating the marque.
Alright, all this fawning over Japanese workmanship has prompted me to put in a plug for Canadian-built vehicles.
Maybe not Japanese-grade, but generally well-regarded.
(There you go, Mikey)
Yes, this matters…it matters incredibly. Robert, your reasoning was very well put. Here’s my two cents…
China is very much like the US in many ways. I have lived in both countries and know them both well. We are both insular nations, which has a lot to do with the large geographic and population size of both. The Chinese maintain many of the same aspects that the masses of Americans maintain, aspects noted by most Europeans (and others who frequently interact with other nations/cultures/languages/customs) as ignorance.
American auto companies have mismanaged nearly all the foreign companies they’ve bought. The Germans, as noted here, are much better at it. The Japanese & Koreans are probably quite insular themselves but they don’t tend to venture acquisitions outside of their own culture.
I think Chinese ownership of foreign firms will be very much like, if not worse, than US ownership. There is a long learning curve on behalf of the Chinese to understand the Swedish culture and make sure the cars reflect that. Unless they are 100% hands off in product development (which they won’t be–they’ll be out to cut costs and source Chinese parts), Chinese ownership of Volvo will fail the brand.
I think foreign brand ownership is something that by nature the Europeans will always be better at.