Jim Majeta at Kicking Tires reports a change in GM's upcoming hybrid electric – gas hybrid Chevrolet Volt's fuel tank size. The 12-gallon tank with a 600-mile projected range is no more. GM's not saying by how much they're shrinking the tank, but the new projected range is 360 petrochemical miles. As that's just over half the previous gas-only range, a straight division yields a 7.2-gallon tank. Per the article, "GM says because most cars [will in theory] travel 40 miles or less each day, there was really no need to have a 12-gallon fuel tank – and the added weight – to extend the range by 600 miles." Translation: "We have problems meeting weight and packaging requirements, big time. Besides, the only range we have to beat is the Tesla Roadster's." Speaking of another manufacturer suffering from premature specification…
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Besides, the only range we have to beat is the Tesla Roadster’s.” Speaking of another manufacturer suffering from premature specification…
Well, today, even a Hemi Durango beats a Tesla Roadster, 9 mpg being greater than 0 mpg. GM has to beat the Prius, not the Tesla.
The last time GM rushed a car to production, we got the Solstice – tons of promise, great coach work but some BIG HAIRY WARTS that can’t be ignored (tranny, roof, trunk…). If the Volt is a hybrid equivalent of a Solstice, goodbye GM.
Obvious question, then. What’s the Prius’ [total] real-world driving range?
This is a non-issue if I ever saw one. People will pay the premium (over a similar-size car) for the 40 gas-free miles, not an astounding range between fill-ups.
360 miles plus the first 40 (from batteries) is still more than many vehicles will ever get.
I’m sure many are hoping to NEVER fill that tank.
2008 Prius: EPA combined 46 mpg * 11.9 gallons = 547.4 miles.
IMHO 300 miles is just about right for range on a tank. Only time I really care is on roadtrips, and i’m usually happy to stop about then and stretch my legs anyway.
For a regular car how often are u away from a gas stn for more than few miles in town?
If u’re on Hwy, they susally say ahead with big big signs next gas stn will be 70 miles so gas up now or vait for tow truck buddy.
So we dont actually need car to go 800 miles w/out fuelling.
We all need to drink, feed & pee every hr or so.
I dont F ing understand we need these ridiculous cruising range.
“…we got the Solstice – tons of promise, great coach work but some BIG HAIRY WARTS that can’t be ignored (tranny, roof, trunk…)
That is a poor example. The Solstice is what it is. A small 2 seat roadster that is fun to drive.
I don’t know — this seems nit-picky to me. I mean, of course it makes sense to shrink the tank.IMHO, that’s just a healthy mentality of looking everywhere to save weight.
And honestly, if we’re going to essentially compare the Volt’s gas tank to the Prius’ by asking what the Prius’ real-world driving range is, then we ought to compare the Prius’ battery-only range to the Volt’s. And there’s no comparison, from what I’ve read.
Plus, we’re talking about a plug-in hybrid vs. a non-plug-in hybrid.
For Pete’s sake, yes, the Volt is a Hail Mary. Yes, they’ve talked it up like crazy.
But had we looked for every single chance to sarcastically question every less-than-seemingly-wise decision in the run-up to the first trip to the moon, who knows if anyone would have given a shit once we’d gotten there?
I know GM’s management has its collective head up its ass, but we really are taking pot shots when we put down the company’s engineers; everyone knows they’re stellar when unencumbered by cost-cutting. I mean, they did engineer the EV1, didn’t they? It was management that shut that down, not the engineers.
Matching the range on a Prius is an obvious move, and one GM may just be stupid enough to ignore. If an average car’s range is assumed to be 400 miles per tank of gas then we might guess GM to aim for than number instead. The media and pundits will punish them for it while Bob Lutz tells us the number is meaningless as a method of comparison.
It sure comes off as lame, but I’d be inclined to agree with Bob.
Toyota list the Prius with 11.9 gallons of fuel. 46mpg combined listed on toyota.com nets 547 miles. The current Prius does not plug into the grid for electrical power and attains slightly higher mileage in city driving.
If the Volt is used on a daily basis within its 35 to 40 mile electric range it might use all of a gallon of gas per week. Even at 1gal per week this particular Volt could run 6 to 8 weeks on single 7 gallon tank.
The whole equation changes when considering a road trip. Even if the Volt could be charged overnight at a hotel, it would need to convert gas at 53mpg to reach 400 miles per tank (including 30 all-electric miles to start). But it would need 79mpg to get to the 570 mile range of our idealized Prius (@ 48hwy mpg).
Does anybody have information on mpg for a series hybrid or the Volt in particular?
Why are we putting down the Volt because the engineers are leaving no stone unturned in finding ways to save weight — just like we tell them to do in other comment threads of this site?
Furthermore, if we’re going to compare the Volt’s full real-world range to the Prius’, then we really ought to compare the Prius’ real-world battery range to the Volt’s. Shouldn’t we?
And in that, there’s no comparison because we’re talking about a plug-in hybrid vs. a conventional hybrid.
Yes, GM’s management often seems absolutely clueless. But those engineers there did create the EV1. Methinks they know a thing or two about electric drivetrains.
Why is it that we all express this rabid “anti” fervor when it comes to native firms — whether these be the hated GM or the new-to-auto-manufacturing Tesla — taking an honest crack at making a next-generation vehicle? I suppose if Toyota or Honda were doing it, we’d all be jumping for joy at the awe-inspiring wisdom of those beautiful, peaceful Japanese, waiting with baited breath for the next vehicle from the left hand of God Himself.
brent:
Why is it that we all express this rabid “anti” fervor when it comes to native firms — whether these be the hated GM or the new-to-auto-manufacturing Tesla — taking an honest crack at making a next-generation vehicle?
Because it’s not an “honest crack.” Both GM and Tesla bluff, bluster, spin, misinform, misdirect, boast, b.s., etc. If they told the truth, I would support them 100%.
As it is, I support the concept 100%. But only in theory. Like the Tesla and Volt’s future customers, I NEED PROOF. As always, money talks, bullshit walks.
“The Solstice is what it is.”
A pale imitation of the miata?
You know some people even expect their fun cars to have a trunk. Mazda gave the Miata a folding hard-top and it doesn’t use any trunk space when you put the top down. GM gave the Solstice a folding soft top that uses nearly all of the poor excuse for a trunk.
It is a question of engineering. Another half assed rush job like this will put GM out to pasture.
12 gallons is about 1 1/2 cu ft. The extra sheet metal weight to enclose 12 gallons vs 7.2 gallons is trivial. But look at the size of a 5 gallon gas can – thats a pretty big chunk of volume. If the reduction helps their packaging and increases useful interior space, great.
“Straight division yields a 7.2 gallon tank”
At first I was going to say that you must be using that “new math” to compute the 7.2 gallon figure. However, upon closer inspection (and RTFA) I see you slightly skimped in your summary. Could you edit to read: “The 12-gallon tank with a 600-mile projected petrochemical only range is no more.” To me a “600-mile projected range” as you have written implies 40 miles on batteries and 560 miles on gasoline; the implication is strengthened below when you noted specifically that 360 was for “petrochemical miles.”
Honestly, RF, that response of yours is kind of predictable. But I suppose you have a blog brand to protect here at TTAC.
Bullshit always walks. And then the money either talks or doesn’t. There’s never necessarily a causal relationship between the two.
Show me a company — any company — that doesn’t have a PR department that spins, and I’ll show you a company that’s about to be a company no more. It’s standard operating procedure, and not just among native U.S. firms. Some do it better than do others, and so you might make the argument that GM and Tesla don’t do it all too well and that they therefore are doomed to failure. And you might be right. But by the same token you’d be unable to say, necessarily, they’re failing because their technology is somehow bullshit.
And furthermore, aside from all this, as ol’ Rummy Rumsfeld once said, “The absence of evidence does not mean the absence of evidence.” Or something like that. That didn’t go over all that well at the time, but it could very well have been true.
I guess I just choose to be optimistic about our native firms’ prospects in the face of seemingly insurmountable odds. Nothing else breeds victories worth celebrating, and I think pessimism and sarcasm breed failure, whether they’re self-inflicted or when they’re used to deride someone or an entire group.
I operate under the belief that these are in fact metaphysical truths. So I would just say to everyone: Be careful what you in practice wish for, not what you simply profess to wish for — because what you in practice wish for, you come to expect, and expectations are major precursors to manifestations in reality (even when we’re “just” talking about the prospects of certain auto manufacturers).
I guess that’s just a circuitous, analytical way of saying, “Wishes do come true, so be careful what you wish for.”
:-)
Just out of curiosity, just how long will gasoline stay “fresh” when sitting in a car? Some people might not actually empty a 12 gallon tank of fuel each year.
Hmmm…this change was made at least two or three months ago. The rationale was space limitations in the final, aerodynamic body. Lots of grumbling at the time at Volt Nation, but I guess they got over it.
Once the battery has run down, the most important factor in highway fuel economy will be the usual suspects – especially aerodynamic drag. If GM lets style compromise aerodynamics, highway fuel economy will suffer.
I’d bet a quarter GM will do just that. I expect the Volt will get 45mpg after the battery runs down.
40+(7.2*45) = 364 miles.
However, this isn’t all that great for highway driving. When people get below a quarter tank, they’ll start to get nervous and look for a place to refuel. That cuts 50 to 100 miles off the range to become the effective range between refuellings.
(40+(7.2*45)) – 50 = 314.
After the first refuelling or after the first overnight in a hotel or wherever else you’ve stayed but can’t charge, you’re down another 40 because you’ve no longer got the 40 miles from the initial battery charge.
(7.2*45))-50 = 274
Of course, the Prius owners won’t wait until the last minute to refuel, either.
(46*11.9)-50 = 497.
The Volt’s effective range on long driving trips is only a little better than half that of the Prius.
Now, not everyone is going to have a problem with this. But those who take driving vacations are going to notice this. And we do. Compared to our minivan, we’d be stopping to refuel almost twice as often. Sure we stop every few hours anyway but refuelling is optional. If we’re on a limited access road with expensive gas, we often choose to pass up a fuel stop in favor of waiting for a less expensive opportunity. Volt owners won’t be able to do that.
We’ve also been places in the Southwest and Northern Plains where, even with 450+mile range, we felt nervous about passing up a fuelling stop when we had as much as half a tank left.
This is a liability for the Volt. Maybe not a big one but it’s real.
Here’s another question… If they had to do this to the gas tank, what’s trunk space going to be like? Did they really have to do this to salvage a cubic foot or two? If so, what’s left?
brent:
Show me a company — any company — that doesn’t have a PR department that spins, and I’ll show you a company that’s about to be a company no more.
Moral relativism don’t cut the mustard with me, boyo. The day when expecting honesty and integrity from an American company is unacceptable is the day this country turns its back on its founding fathers.
Not that I worship at the altar of Toyota, but I don’t remember them making claims about the Prius that were subsequently “revised” or simply failed to materialize (e.g. the three-hour recharge time and 250-mile range for the Tesla Roadster). Yes, ToMoCo spins their commitment to green causes while building and selling gas pigs. And for that we have repeatedly taken them to task. But GM is a whole ‘nother level of nonsense, as even the casual reader hereabouts must– well, should acknowledge.
SunnyvaleCA:
Just out of curiosity, just how long will gasoline stay “fresh” when sitting in a car? Some people might not actually empty a 12 gallon tank of fuel each year.
GM plans to make the car kick over every now and then (unspecified) to keep the gas-fed ICE system operational. Supposedly.
Brent said, “Furthermore, if we’re going to compare the Volt’s full real-world range to the Prius’, then we really ought to compare the Prius’ real-world battery range to the Volt’s. Shouldn’t we?
And in that, there’s no comparison because we’re talking about a plug-in hybrid vs. a conventional hybrid.”
Then let’s also compare the price.
And in that, there’s no comparison.
Toyota also likes to sic lawyers on customers who have sludge problems. But I guess that’s not a whole ‘nother level of anything. Not around here, anyway.
But I’ll take you at your word and will watch for future announcements such as Toyota’s about upping its production capacity in China, for instance, to be treated with the same level of doom-and-gloom pessimism that this site surely would give other companies’ similar announcements.
After all, nobody wants TTAC to turn into just another cheer-leading blog a la Autoblog, but in reverse.
Yes, KixStart, you pay more for a battery that actually has a standalone range.
I’m not saying this car’s going to be successful from a price-point viewpoint. But I am saying to compare it to the Prius kind of misses the point. It’s the next thing, not something better of the current thing.
(I’m just waiting for the downpour of rebuttals surely to be rained upon me for that one.)
brent:
I’m curious. How is Toyota’s increased Chinese production a bad thing? You know, other than the fact that China may one day nationalize its car companies or do its level best to squeeze-out anything other than a completely domestic brand? (Two possibilities we’ve explored in some depth.)
And isn’t the next thing supposed to be better than the current thing? If not, why bother? Indeed, why bother buying it?
A 400-mile range (40 pure electric, 360 with the gas engine) is perfectly acceptable. Most vehicles have less.
I guess they didn’t want the fuel to go stale.
How much does the engine/generator cost? I bet an electric motor would cost less.
How about a pure electric version in addition to the stinky safety blanket version?
More batteries, more volume, lower price?
Neat video of what looks to be building lithium batteries in a lab type setting. Small production run maybe:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=MqywKcJ0J2M
Mitsubishi is going to capture the market:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jTJ9xvqksyU
I don’t think Nissan/Subaru are that far along. They certainly don’t have the flood of videos of their EV efforts.
Subaru R1e and G4e
Nissan Denki Cube
If Porsche, Lamborghini, or Ferrari would ever build an electric car, it’s hp/tq would be off the charts and more then any gas car they ever built. It would be truly astounding. 1,000+ hp/tq for a first try attempt no joke. The world would take notice of their high performance electric.
Imagine something along the lines of Supra or NSX in an EV flavor with supreme performance from Asia for example.
There are batteries that are plenty “good enough” for today. Build what you can today, and use better batteries as they become available. Or just burn increasingly expensive polluting fuel.
I can’t do anything about the exhaust that’s emitted from my tail pipes short of not driving it. But many things can be done about a stationary coal or natural gas fired power plant. Some sort of carbon capture device, scrubbers, shut it down all together? A modern day nuke plant would be really impressive with the improvements in metallurgy, welding, and computers since the last plants were built. A fine work of art.
As long as fuel prices continue to increase, the transition to electric is inevitable.
The technology in the Volt looks ahead, whereas the Prius’ technology doesn’t as much — although that’s not to say the Prius is backward; it’s anything but.
But many people — like, uh, those folks who rabidly clung to their EV1s back in the day — place great value on being able to make a decent-length trip on battery power alone. To them, the Volt is better and will remain so until some other plug-in hybrid does even more of the same for less.
As for Toyota upping its China production capacity, I have nothing against it. This is the free market, after all, and I’m a free marketeer of the first order. But that headline for that news item about it, RF, come on: If anything, it reads like press release copy. And I should know. I write a lot of them. I guess that makes me Satan’s right-hand man on this blog. (OMG! A LITERATE PUBLIC RELATIONS PROFESSIONAL!) ;-)
Furthermore, I strongly suspect that story’s headline wouldn’t have been so rosy-sounding had the news been about some other company’s hypothetical production capacity increases in China.
Just sayin’.
KixStart Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 8:49 pm
Then let’s also compare the price.
And in that, there’s no comparison.
That’s the big deal. A 400-mile range isn’t bad at all-that’s more than Los Angeles to Phoenix (which is about 370 miles), for example. LA to Vegas is only 270 miles or so. GM won’t lose a single sale by limiting it to 400 miles. But the fact that the Volt will probably cost close to double the next gen Prius is something that will extremely limit sales.
I drove a Solstice. I loved it. I was so close to buying it. I was pissed there was no real trunk to speak of. That stopped me.
Yes, GM makes some stupid moves.
Good lord, we’re reduced to criticizing the Volt because it won’t be perfect for “Northern Plains,” “the Southwest” and I guess the road to Prudhoe Bay. Yes, I’ve driven in those places–ran an Aston Martin Vanquish S down to well less than half a gallon in West Texas a few years ago and coasted a Nissan GT-R into a Lost Wages gas station after getting lazy in Nevada recently–but I normally refuel when the low-fuel light goes on, knowing that wherever I am, I’m no more than five miles from a gas station.
Why don’t we knock it for not being able to make it up Pikes Peak at full throttle on a quarter-tank, or any of those other everyday driving occurrences we deal with?
Toss me in with the chorus saying this is a sad attempt to make a mountain out of a molehill.
The 600-mile range was cool, but not really needed. Most cars have about a 400-mile range. And if any car should have a shorter gasoline range, it would be one that has a 40-mile battery-only range that gets recharged every night.
Now, there’s a lot of other things to wonder about the Volt — like will GM even manage to get it built.
But a shrinking gas tank?
Nothing really to see here.
Stephan Wilkinson,
The problem isn’t that it will or won’t do any one specific thing. The problem is that it involves some significant compromises in what we consider to be normal family vehicle performance and costs $40K. And at that price it won’t make any money for GM. And even if they could eke out a few $$ on each sale, they won’t ship it in significant quantity until 2012.
Has it ever occurred to you that you just might have to make some significant compromises in the next decade? Apparently not.
Even at $40,000, GM won’t have any problem selling 10,000 of them in 2011 — unless Toyota has already beaten them to the punch with their own plug-in hybrid.
There are easily 10,000 people in America who want to give a big UP YOURS to the oil companies and won’t mind paying 40K for that badge. “Look, I drive a Volt!”
Selling 60,000 in 2012 might be a taller order.
There are still significant risks, lots of them having to do with GM’s previous screwing of pooches. But if GM actually manages to deliver 10,000 of these and they get about 40 miles gas-free each day, they won’t have trouble selling them.
So, it would appear that, going by some of the early comments, that there is really nothing wrong with the adjusted range. The problem would then be the quoted 600 mile original figure.
Where did that come from again?
They could build a pickup or suv with a giant, huge, disgusting fuel tank that allowed the vehicle to get over a 1,000 mile range. Trains, semi’s, and large aircraft have large tanks and long ranges.
The trucks/suvs currently get a lot of bad press for the amount it costs to fill up their tanks.
Do commuters and errand runners need so much uninterrupted range? Track your Monday through Friday daily mileage.
An EV will meet our daily needs. Keep one or more of your five current fuel burners for weekend play toys and cross country vacation vehicles. Or buy the Volt for all your cross country needs. Never know when you might need to drive to the other coast on a whim.
Electric vehicle range will increase. These first gen models have smaller battery packs only as a result of current battery prices.
Some range from long ago using lead batteries:
http://www.evalbum.com/037
Take that lead weight and exchange it for the same weight in lithium for some insane range. I suck at math, so someone with some time(and willingness) plug in some numbers and see what it takes for desired range:
http://evconvert.com/tools/evcalc/
With all this talk comparing the Volt and the Prius, I remember reading a review either on here or in another car magazine where they found when the Prius’ battery gets worn down due to long trips in hilly areas the thing starts to get about 17.5 mpg That would considerably shorten it’s range. Anybody else heard this before?…
360 miles seems like a good range. I think GM’s move might be more about cost to fill up a gas tank than weight reduction though. Most people don’t take the time to calculate out how many miles they get from a tank of gas, they only know how much they pay at the pump (although they do have some sense of how often they fill up). Having a bigger tank might hurt the Volt as people would rather say/GM advertise that it only costs them $30 to fill up rather than $60. I’m sure that there have actually been studies on exactly this issue. A dumb reason, but I could see some marketing people pushing it.
brent, you continually keep comparing the CURRENT, DATED Prius to the as-yet-unreleased Volt. Exactly *how* do you know what the actual, or real-world electric range of the Volt will be when the production vehicle comes out? Fact is, you don’t, and nobody will know UNTIL it actually is available for sale. Likewise, you have NO IDEA what the electric range of the next-gen Prius will be. It likely will not match the Volt’s electric range, but it’s very likely to be MUCH better than the current Prius. On top of all this, the next-gen Prius is almost sure to have a better gas-only range, and better gas-only highway fuel economy than the Volt.
Fact is, we KNOW the Volt will be more expensive than the Prius. GM has confirmed this on several occasions.
Robert Farago Says:
Obvious question, then. What’s the Prius’ [total] real-world driving range?
I can answer that!
With my 2004 Prius in my flat, never cold part of Florida, I usually get about 375 miles before I start thinking about filling up. Once I hit 400, it’s usually down to 1 or 2 blips on the fuel display. By about 410 or so, I get an audible bell/chime and a low-fuel warning.
By this time, it usually requires 8.5 to 9 gallons to fill it all the way up.
One time, when I had my car early on, I actually got 518 miles on a tank. And it only took about 9 gallons to fill up.
Anecdotal info regarding tires:
Today, however, I’m getting worse fuel economy. It began right after I put new tires on (back in April/May); Bridgestone Potenzas, I believe. I’d have to figure out my gas mileage in light of the cost of the more expensive Michelin Hydroedges, but next time, I will probably go back to the Michelins.
Both tires are good for driving in or out of the rain, but the Michelins are about 3 or 4 MPG better (when compared to the Bridgestones in comparable weather).
There may be more to this than meets the eye. 5 gallons is nothing. Unless you’re dealing with a Smart car, you should have enough room for a 12 gallon tank. Trunk space is really not that great an issue. (5gal=0.67 cu ft of trunk space, btw)
The mpg-at-all-costs 2-seater Honda Insight had a 13.7gal tank.
Range on a tank is just too great of a selling point to give up so easily (and so drastically). The only thing I could think of is GM saying “Look! it only costs $30 to fill up a tank!” Which, I admit, is probably very appealing to most. And if there’s something to hide, it would be the perfect cover.
Stephan Wilkinson said, “Has it ever occurred to you that you just might have to make some significant compromises in the next decade? Apparently not.”
Actually, it has. My forecast, though, is that the market generally won’t be ready for a lot of compromises. The market will expect a $20-24K car to be a regular family sedan, with the accustomed capabilities. A $40K sedan will have to have extraordinary capabilities.
What, you may ask, about the special powertrain?
Won’t help. Being a hybrid $40K sedan won’t work out for GM if you can go across town and get a hybrid sedan for $22K (Prius) or $18K (?Honda?). And the cost savings aren’t there unless gas prices are so high that most of the cars in the US are immobilized by them. In which case, a few RE-EV Volts won’t matter at all.
So GM has trouble with the weight, and with the volume taken up by the batteries. Downsizing the tank is probably smart.
The next gen Prius, even with plug-in mode, would not have the space required for a similar battery pack as that proposed in the Volt — but then I suspect that Toyota found a cut-off point between electrical assist and gas powered that they believed would support battery-pack longevity.
The Volt’s problem is that a lot of people will be wanting to fill as little gas as possible, and will want to drive off the battery pack.
Which means that its efficiency will be compromised quite early in its running life. One solution is to increase the size of the battery, in order to distribute the load over more cells – which could explain the need for a smaller gas tank.
Just spouting!
I haven’t seen it in any responses, so…
With this move, GM shaved 35 pounds of weight (gas + tank materials and supports).
Engineers froth over that kind of thing.
Besides, by the time the Volt sees the light of day, 7 gallons of “juice” may be sold at auction to the highest bidder.
Samir:
“Well, today, even a Hemi Durango beats a Tesla Roadster, 9 mpg being greater than 0 mpg. GM has to beat the Prius, not the Tesla.”
The EPA rating for the Hemi Durango 4×2 is 13 city/19 hwy (5 speed auto). With the 4.7L Flex Fuel V8 and 5 speed auto it’s 14 city/19 hwy. With the 4×4 take a mile off each figure. Just keeping it truthful.
I believe the issue isn’t so much the range as it is the fact that GM keeps changing its targets.
GM changes its mind so much about the capabilities/price/range of the volt that by the time the volt goes into production it will be a $60,000 mild-hybrid cobalt.
I didnt read through all 5 pages of comments, but I hope people are saying the same thing. Its about mpg, not range. This is no big deal.
npbheights Says:
With all this talk comparing the Volt and the Prius, I remember reading a review either on here or in another car magazine where they found when the Prius’ battery gets worn down due to long trips in hilly areas the thing starts to get about 17.5 mpg That would considerably shorten it’s range. Anybody else heard this before?…
Search youtube for Prius vs M3. Top Gear ran a Prius round the track for all it was worth and had an M3 keep up with it. The Prius averaged 17ish MPG and the M3 got 19.
When you have to use 100% engine power to haul around your car, MPGs fall rapidly. (hope you were all sitting down for that)
Regarding the Volt, where is info. regarding the conditions under which the 40 mile range is achieved? If I drive hard and fast, will that cut it down? Do conditions have to be ideal in order to achieve the 40 mile range in electric?
So, Johnson…
I trust, then, that bloggers and those who comment on blogs will also stop putting down the numbers for products that haven’t even been released yet. For all the grist that these announcements apparently generate for the sarcastic and pessimistic among us, by your own words we must not make presumptions about range, etc., until products are actually out on the market.
I know you were trying to shut me up with your words, but they kinda shut you up, too.
I can imagine range between fill ups mattering if you drive a ton, but is it going to matter to people who buy this to use the 40 mile battery only range?
I think it is an interesting idea, although the price point is completely wrong.
1st generation (right?) mass produced plug in for $40k…how could that possibly go wrong?
I’ll wait until they get the kinks worked out and offer a hatch for a price within 10-20% of a new yaris.
The average Joe Schmoe consumer, who knows the Volt exists, but not the details behind it, couldn’t be incensed to follow spec changes like this. I wasn’t even aware of the original spec for gas-only driving range.
Aside from GM’s marketing department and engineers tripping over themselves, and fumbling over what the targets they intend to meet are, it’ll be inevitable the Volt will be compared to the Prius, the 3rd generation Prius at that.
What’s the volt’s projected driving range going to be for city, highway, and mixed?
I’m certain that when “they” get the kinks worked out and offer a hatch for a price within 10-20% of a new Yaris, “they” will be Toyota and the car will be the Yaris – or something very much like it.
Those who are waiting for GM to perfect this new technology would be well advised to continue breathing (don’t hold your breath).
Their past performance suggests anyone foolish enough to be a GM “early adopter” will likely be part of the test program for a very long time, and there will be tears.
brent said, “For all the grist that these announcements apparently generate for the sarcastic and pessimistic among us, by your own words we must not make presumptions about range, etc., until products are actually out on the market.”
In other words, we dismiss the Volt as vaporware until such time as we can actually go to the Chevy dealer and buy one? I’ll do that if Bob Lutz does that. Do we have a deal?
—
shaker said, “With this move, GM shaved 35 pounds of weight (gas + tank materials and supports). Engineers froth over that kind of thing.”
Engineers froth over removing weight so that they can add payload, increase performance, fuel economy or range. In this case, they reduced range in direct and dramatic proportion to the reduction and increased payload, performance or whatever by ngeligible amounts.
Why did GM do this? Why is this small amount of weight and space important enough to let the Prius have at least 50% greater range to empty and almost double the real effective range?
Some floated the idea of “Just $30 to fill the tank” as bragging rights. Anyone can see that making a tank smaller accomplishes that without doing anything useful. I could have $30 max filups if I filled my tank with pebbles and just put fuel in the spaces between.
By the way, if the Gen 3 Prius hits 50mpg highway (fairly likely), it’s 11.9 * 50 or as-near-as-dammit 600 miles. If they boost tank size to 12 gallons, they’re there. If they can claim 51mpg, they’re there with the tank they have. It’s probably a psychological milestone.
If the car does have a 7-8 gallon gas tank, this is going to piss off drivers the first time that they try to take this car out of town. With extended highway driving, the car will be using its gas motor most of the time, and deplete a tank that small in nothing flat.
All this assumes that the car launches on time, of course. If they are still sorting out stuff like this at the moment, I don’t think that they’ll be meeting their target release date.
KixStart, my comment was in response to Johnson’s, and my point was that if anyone is going to call the Volt “vaporware” — which is isn’t, by the way — then, within the context of Johnson’s comment, it doesn’t make sense for anyone to put it down or hype it up. So neither side has much of a leg to stand on.
Nevertheless, if people such as you insist on putting it down, then there’s really no compelling argument coming from someone such as you (or Johnson, or anyone else) that says someone like me can’t take the other position; an objective voice, however — of which there seem to be precious few here — could make the compelling argument that we both ought to pipe down.
I suppose someone will have some sort of sarcastic, pessimistic comeback to this that will make him/her feel good. I don’t care. My point remains.
It’s a fantastic car. Is it true that the original concept vehicle made for show had better CE-numbers going backwards? Revolutionary!
Tells you something, doesn’t it?
I think we’ll end up with a Volt that looks pretty much like this:
http://www.autounleashed.com/images/saab_9-x_concept_geneva.jpg
Which, a few years later, became this:
http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/car-photos/saab-9-x-biohybrid-concept-3.jpg
Note that the only difference is that it’s now a Bio-Hybrid Concept. In other words, not just any regular car.
But with Saab waning as a brand, expect the Volt to be slimmed and trimmed, until it looks like this:
http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/car-photos/saab-9-x-biohybrid-concept-1.jpg
From merriam-webster.com
vaporware: a computer-related product that has been widely advertised but has not and may never become available
Sorry, Brent. The Volt is the very defintion of vaporware. It’s in commercials, they tout it at every auto show, but they keep pushing up the price and downplaying the battery range and charge times so much. Others here, including me, believe that GM will never make this because they’ll have either gone bankrupt or gas prices will go down and they’ll stop bothering.
@CarShark:
Sorry, Brent. The Volt is the very defintion of vaporware. It’s in commercials, they tout it at every auto show, but they keep pushing up the price and downplaying the battery range and charge times so much. Others here, including me, believe that GM will never make this because they’ll have either gone bankrupt or gas prices will go down and they’ll stop bothering.
Sorry, CarShark, but your comment refutes only the aside in mine (and not its main point), so I’m puzzled as to why you’re “sorry.”
KixStart:
If they trade 30lbs of fuel and tank for 30lbs of batteries, it would help to meet their “40 Mile City” range; a moving target for GM right now.
FOOD FOR THOUGHT:
The Prius is a success becuae it do NOT “plug in”.
The success of the Prius is that it operate just like any other car on the road. You get in and drive and fill it up at the local station. It can also drive across the 3000 miles of the USA without any support from the electrical grid.
Think, SELF-CONTAINED!
Maybe there are a few of you enviornmental junkies that desire to plug in their car every night but the reality is the 95% of us do NOT wish to deal with the extra hassle of a plug-in Hybrid.
The biggest question is WHO is going to buy the Volt from GM in the first place?
Not for nothing but GM does NOT have a reputation for doing “high-tech” very well. GM is that company that wants to sell you a BOF throw-back as though it is a modern passanger car today.
Considering that by the time GM does (IF) has the Volt ready for market there WILL be other alternative available. It doesn’t even matter if the Volt is better, folks DO NOT trust GM today like they do HOnda or Toyota.
I get 240-250 to a tank. 400 total miles sounds just fine. Actually reducing the size of the tank to save on weight is a good idea. The Volt isn’t supposed to be the cross country family truckster. Its meant to be a daily driver so 30-60 miles for your average commuter.
Not seeing a conspiracy here just seeing good sense, lets not be so quick to beat GM with a stick.
Also, the current styling of the Volt is rather silly looking and makes the current Prius look conservative in comparison.
Why is GM trying to make it look like some kind of muscle car? It is an “electric hybrid” supposedly desgined to be extremely economical. Whats with the big wheels and other stuff that aint gonna make it into production anyway?
Why the long hood? The engine will not be mounted length wise.
A price of $40,000, are you kidding me! This makes about zero sense! Folks that can afford a $40,000 car (were not even talking $30,000 but $40,000!)have many options available to them.
For instance they could forgo a 335i and get a 328i and spend the difference on gas!
Why is everyone running numbers for the CURRENT Prius vs the Volt? Will there not be another generation of Prius’ out there by the time the Volt comes to market? (if it ever does) If Toyota makes the Prius a Plug-In Hybrid, all of these comparison numbers are thrown out the window. Comparing a vehicle that is already what 3 years old?, to a car that is coming out in 2010 (yeah right) is ludicrous. There are already modifications you can do with current gen Prius to make it a plug-in, that still come out cheaper than the Volt, gets you over 30 miles on battery alone, and average of well over 100 mpg.
The Volt isn’t supposed to be the cross country family truckster. Its meant to be a daily driver so 30-60 miles for your average commuter.
This kind of thinking is why GM is all but broke today!
I will bet that maybe 3% of the potential market for the Volt will be willing to accept such a compromise with their “car”. For at least 95% of us out here we need our car to be a REAL car capable of traveling long distance if needed. A Honda Fit or Toyota Corolla will take you across the USA with no compromise, you fill it up and go and fill it up again getting the same mileage.
Hint: the Prius works in the same manner.
More to the point someone will need to make a very convincing arguement as to why a $40,000 Volt will be worth $15,000 more than even the current generation Prius?
I get 240-250 to a tank. 400 total miles sounds just fine.
If the blog is guessing correctly and the tank is only about 7 gallons, then that means that the highway range will probably be 200-250 miles.
Since most people don’t want to run on fumes, that means that drivers will be hunting for gas about every 150 miles or so. That will annoy the hell out of a lot of people.
In order to make buyers happy, there needs to be a balance between urban use and highway use. (Of course, this assumes that the car is ever launched as anything more than a low-production test, something that I seriously doubt.)
Stephan Wilkinson Says:
July 8th, 2008 at 9:40 pm
Good lord, we’re reduced to criticizing the Volt because it won’t be perfect for “Northern Plains,” “the Southwest” and I guess the road to Prudhoe Bay.
There are 240 miles between service stations between Coldfoot and Deadhorse on the way to Prudhoe Bay AK. I have a hard time imagining there is a longer distance between gas stations anywhere in the US, so this is a non issue.
Yes it might not be what GM promised, but if brings Santa Lutz closer to having an operational vehicle under the tree for us let is slide!
What I’m saying is 400 mile range is fine for your daily driver and you could drive cross country I just wouldn’t reccommend it. Remember as long as you stop by a gas station before the tank is dry you should be fine yah know? Like I need to stop every 240 miles to fill mine up.
Its a non-issue, don’t even know why it’s being discussed.
WhatdoIknow: I’ll be happy to plug in and save the time of pumping gasoline in all sorts of weather – cold, rain, snow, summer heat. I’ll also be quite glad to save my purchases from Big Oil when we go see the grandmas in the next city over.
I worried the Volt would be some sort of bloated oversized parody of a Prius when I first saw it. Hopefully the real car and the concept car are only vaguely related or at least hopefully the GM product doesn’t sacrifice utility for the muscle car looks. That’s GM typical though – build a CUV and it’s huge and heavy. Build a “small” truck and it’s bigger than everybody else’s. Big tires, big wheels, etc. etc.
Never mind…
@Busbodger
Let’s hope the GM skunkworks keeps whittling away at the VOLT, until they have something that really optimizes weight/power/handling.
I would actually buy something that looked like the Saab 9x concept, and which ran on the VOLT principle. I’d be elbowing my way to the front of the line.
But an oversized, too heavy, “make it look like a regular car” version is not for me.
For at least 95% of us out here we need our car to be a REAL car capable of traveling long distance if needed.
Yeah! A REAL car! Like a truck! Or an SUV! Raaaah! I have a small penis! I let TV dictate what kind of car I buy! Hurururh1!!11one
but the reality is the 95% of us do NOT wish to deal with the extra hassle of a plug-in Hybrid.
Why, did you take a poll?
Plug-in hybrids don’t work for people who don’t have access to a plug at night. That will take out a good chunk of people, maybe 30% to 50% of Americans. That’s fine.
but the reality is the 95% of us do NOT wish to deal with the extra hassle of a plug-in Hybrid.
Do you know what RAV4 EV’s go for on eBay? This is a car that can’t take gasoline.
There are lots of cars being sold in the tens of thousands right now that don’t have a 400-mile range. Check out Bankrate.
GM will have no problem selling the first 10,000 at $40K or even $50K, if they can just ship a car that basically works and they aren’t beaten to the punch. I fully realize that those are both very big “if”s as long as we’re talking about GM.
brent, you still don’t get it.
The Volt is not OUT, so we can’t say ANYTHING about it, good or bad. The Volt is being criticized because GM acts *as if* the Volt is already in production, when it’s far from it. The Volt is also criticized because Volt supporters act as if the vehicle is already in production, using and arguing with specific numbers that we don’t know will stay the same with the production model.
You can hype and talk positively about the Volt all you want, but it’s NOT OUT YET.
The Prius on the other hand is out. It’s been on-sale for years now. With the Prius, we have cold, hard targets with which to measure the Volt against when it comes out.
The Volt won’t be out until late 2010 at the earliest. The next-gen Prius is coming in 2009. Toyota has confirmed this 100%. We know this to be a fact.
Also since we have cold hard numbers from the current Prius, using logic and common sense the next-gen Prius would improve on the current Prius in most metrics.
So by the time the Volt comes out, it will NOT be compared to the current dated Prius, it will be compared to the next-gen Prius that will have already been out on the market for over a year by the time the Volt comes to market.
I’m just back from a trip in our Rav4. it got 29.5mpg, overall (with a few legs doing noticeably better). Trip distance was just shy of 3600 miles and we refueled 14 times, including the final fillup at home today.
The nominal range of the vehicle (probably including what’s in the neck) is about 450 miles. On a number of occasions, when we stopped, fueling wasn’t convenient or seemed expensive and got skipped. 5 of our fillups were at 340-plus miles. All of those were slightly nerve-wracking. One fillup went to 13.3 gallons.
One shorter-range fillup was driven by poor fuel economy related to weather . We should have been able to get to our overnight but shoving aside all that rain killed our fuel economy.
It would probably help if our fuel gauge was more accurate. It’s too pessimistic. When it dropped below E, we actually have almost 3 gallons left but lack the confidence to use it.
Of the fillups at 340+, we could, convniently, have gone longer, but fuel was the principal consideration in stopping. A couple times we refueled when it wasn’t really necessary so we could stretch the next leg of the trip, if we wanted.
So, yeah, I consider sub-300 mile range to be too short. This won’t be huge but it will be a factor for people.