After Captain Mike today posted that he was having a difficult time merely test driving a Challenger SRT8 before putting down his hard-earned cash to buy one, not everyone was sympathetic. In fact, Jen Dunnaway – the editor of the blog section over at CarDomain.com – thinks we're a bunch of whiners/cry babies.
"Sour grapes of the day: The Truth About Cars has been begging Mopar for a Challenger test car, only to be outraged by the fact that "Chrysler LLC refuses to acknowledge TTAC's existence." Gee, why would a domestic automaker do that? Maybe because all TTAC does is spew hate and vitriol for the Detroit automakers, loudly delight in their every misfortune, and smack their lips in gleeful anticipation of the collapse of our nation's auto industry? Obviously Ma Mopar hasn't heard the one about keeping your enemies closer—and TTAC, after being further thwarted from even taking a regular-joe dealership test drive, decided that the Challenger isn't really that big a deal after all.
[For the purposes of this thread, TTAC's normal restrictions on discussing the site's mission and/or biases are lifted.]
Well, she must be something special, there isn’t a single comment on her post. Like Glinda said to the Wicked Witch: “Begone, you have no power here”
It seems to me that most people posting and writing the articles for TTAC are obviously sad about what has happened to the American auto industry. What I see expressed on these pages is a strong dislike, dare I say hatred, of the executives that brought GM, et.al. to their current state of walking around with their collective hat in their hands asking Joe America if he can spare a buck. I bought a Saturn, my first new car, and I learned to hate it. I started out liking it and wanted to like it, as I love classic Chevys and even own one, and also because my brother-in-law is a design engineer at Delphi. That Saturn sucked the soul out of me and made me vow never to by another modern GM product (well except maybe a Corvette). This is a person who has seen his beloved Chevy brand go down the tubes and that makes me angry, angry at the labotomized accountants that ran GM into the ground.
I hope that TTAC continues to point out the folly of these people. Somebody needs to with all the blinded, rah rah, cheerleaders out there who refuse to tell the emperor he has no clothes. What good does it do us, the American citizens, the domestic automakers, or their workers if nobody is willing to acknowledge the problems and call for an accounting. It leaves us with a dysfunctional auto manufacturing industry propped up by the government until the government can no longer afford to support it.
Stupid and ignorant people will always look at the easy way out. It’s simpler to say that Marilyn Manson is the root of all evil on this earth, than to explain that the world is more complex than people can possibly imagine. TTAC may be derided for its stance, but at the end of the day, it all comes down to products, and the fact that some car manufacturers for decades has tried to push inferior products. May it be Mercedes, Volkswagen or General Motors, it doesn’t matter. When better cars are built, Buick will build them. And when may that day come, I ask? I am fully convinced that when the domestics finally makes products that is on par with what should be expected from them, no one will be more pleased than all the people on TTAC. Untill then, I hope that the truth about cars will still be told.
Being a little more positive would help a bit than just saying “chapter 11 is the only way out”. Maybe chapter 11 isn’t the only way out. I’m just sayin’.
That being said, GM’s troubles do kinda worry me. I still hope to own a Camaro, but that Hyundai Genesis Coupe looks mighty tempting…
At least we stopped blaming the Unions…
Justin, that’s “Schadenfreude”. Just so you know.
You can go back to bashing Chrysler now.
Well said, sir.
And to Captain Solo, thank you for showing everyone what “regular joe” reviewers are up against. Knowing how hard things are for some of these automakers, it’s hard for me to test-drive under false pretenses. Black holes create less emotional drain to a salesdude who hasn’t made a sale in weeks. Especially when he’s hocking a product he knows isn’t worth the steel it was made with.
Maybe because all TTAC does is spew hate and vitriol for the Detroit automakers, loudly delight in their every misfortune, and smack their lips in gleeful anticipation of the collapse of our nation’s auto industry?
Oh please. Don’t invite gross overgeneralization of your content. One short word would do the trick.
Believe me, none of us takes any delight in the troubles that the domestic auto producers are experiencing – especially when hard working people’s jobs are on the line.
In all honesty, I find this a bit hard to believe.
Perceptions don’t emerge out of a vacuum.
“Oh please. Don’t invite gross overgeneralization of your content. One short word would do the trick”
I think it was a beautiful sentence. Almost poetry like, the sentence flows like a trochaic octameter. Content aside, she has a way with words…
Maybe a little praise would be nice. Like a whole editorial about the CTS is proof of American car industry’s potential!
So this person doesn’t have much in the way of reading comprehension either – Mike pointed out the dealers were the culprit, even though Chrysler was called out in the blog entry.
I’m guessing Jen Dunnaway might benefit from a couple more years of college. I’m pretty sure my 16 year old daughter would have comprehended what Mike wrote much better before writing that entry and making a fool of herself.
According to Jen Dunnaway’s profile she owns three (3!) 1980’s Ford Escorts. She obviously suffers from the same compulsive hoarding syndrome that would drive someone to “collect” a Challenger SE.
Well, at least we know she’s reading us. She’d better be careful pointing her readers toward us, though. Some of them may recognize superior content and come back for more.
Some people can’t handle the “truth” and live in the wonderland of bliss and success that we keep on hearing about how the D2.8 have turned themselves around and will get those big bonuses – of course they keep on pulling back on these “plans” or not even releasing them.
@quasimondo:
What makes you say that? I think it’s not a vacuum so much as a matter of perspective. If you are a fan of the Detroit 3, you are going to hate TTAC, because the site frequently reports about their missteps. No one likes it when someone says something negative about what they like.
That said, this site and Farago always bang on about having a good brand image. I don’t think TTAC honestly has one. People don’t remember the insights. They do remember “flying vagina”. The sarcastic/skeptical/scathing articles that dominate the site are entertaining, but it seems that without fail, at least one commenter takes serious issue with each one. The question is can you tell the truth and be interesting without seeming smug?
Well, I certainly learned one thing today: Jen Dunnaway is unencumbered by a clue. In a perfect world she’d be punished by being forced to drive a Chrysler for an entire year.
We’ll see how warmly she regards them after that experience.
I feel like am at the beginning of talk radio and early cable TV.
I don’t know how old some in this group are, but in the early days, all we ever got to listen to for news and commentary were the BIG THREE.
ABC, NBC and CBS controlled the air.
We had to get everything from these nightly readers (reporters).
Well, now they are demanding the upstart cable and radio shows be reined in because they are so overwhelmingly popular and nobody tunes the limp 3 in anymore.
TTAC is the mist of and the leader of Internet Auto Review Rebellion that’s taking place. It has happened to other communication and news sources, now it’s finally happening big time in the car internet world.
TTAC, AutoExtremist and the like are allowing for a great deal of creative and independent thought from both writers and the community.
Believe me, when this happens, you’re a success and are having a powerful impact and they know it.
Feel good about this.
It’s All Good!
I wonder if shes dating Angus MacKenzie? Hah! To quote the recent burger king commercials, Jen, You arrogant punk!
Playground childishness on both sides.
Carshark,
You don’t have to be a fan of Detroit to see how disproportionate the chronicling of Detroit’s missteps is compared to everyone else’s. You don’t have to be a fan of Detroit to see the venom that drips from some of the B&B whenever there’s mention of a Chevy, Ford or Dodge (reactions to GM’s CPO ‘ambush’ ads is a perfect example of this). It’s what this site is, despite the token four star review of the Malibu.
There may be some genuine concern for Detroit in the editorials and commentaries, but it’s so far buried beneath such long-standing contempt for them that it never sees the light of day.
The question is can you tell the truth and be interesting without seeming smug?
I think you must, especially if you don’t want to earn the reputation being given to you from the likes of Ms. Dunaway, but I think we’re way past that.
You can’t cry foul over this site being seen as having an anti-Detroit bias, much like Detroit can’t cry foul over the perception gap in the quality of their cars compared to everybody else.
biiiiiittttccchhhh!!!!!
I agree with quasimondo – TTAC does not receive its negative comments at random. The contempt some other sites have towards the attitudes at TTAC stem from other people making their own inferences and rationalizations.
Dunaway is simply making an inference about TTAC… she doesn’t attempt to tell the truth.
Simply accusing them of an error in logic does little to address the notion that the negative perception exists. The irony is that this point of view is the exact perspective that the Detroit 3 have used for decades. They blame others for the incorrect perceptions of their quality. They blame others for misunderstanding their Lutz-isms. They attempt to rationalize and defend their actions using the ideas that they deem to be logical and correct.
There is no point to rationalize your behavior to your own audience. If TTAC does not want negatives written about them then they should go about and make some changes to address their issues. But it seems more likely is that TTAC doesn’t care what other sites say about them. Which makes news-posts like this one unnecessary.
Is TTAC negative with respects to Detroit in general and Chrysler specifically? Generally, yes.
Is TTAC unfair? Well, I thought the Lexus IS250 review was harsh, but generally not.
Are Chrysler et al really in trouble? Yes.
Is there any harm in pointing this out? Well, maybe, in that is it’s negative PR.
Is that “negative PR” undeserved or improper? No. Absolutely not.
This is the important point that a lot of people miss, be it about automakers or sports teams, up to and including the President (or whomever is in authority in your state). You’re entitled to criticize. When criticism itself is shelved because it’s “unpatriotic”, it begets serious, systemic trouble.
When you refuse to admit, or even damn those who suggest, that you have problems, you will never, ever do anything to fix them. Ford is the only domestic that acknowledged so much as a sliver of culpability, and they’re the only one that’s on the mend. Toyota and Honda have gone on record about errors they’ve made (growth hampering quality and market/planning misjudgements, respectively).
I’ve yet to see GM or Chrysler management admit to any mistakes. At all. If they didn’t spend so much time pretending everything’s fine, perhaps people wouldn’t be shouting quite so much about it not being so.
TTAC should ignore what other sites have to say about them, and not complain about the lack of a press car. We’re all big boys here.
I would have spun it with a lot of humor. Turn lemons into lemonade and all that jazz.
Well, let me put it this way:
I tend to think that most of us who blast away at Detroit with both barrels (guilty here, usually blasting away with glee) have something like this kind of history behind us:
We grew up loving cars. American cars. “Once upon a time,” they were great. Mustangs and Camaros and Impalas and Galaxies and Corvairs and Falcons and on and on and on — Detroit met our needs. And that was just mentioning two brands in my examples.
But then, things changed. Cars changed. Some changed for the better, others…. “not so much.”
And the more things changed, the more obvious it seemed that Detroit just FAILED TO COMPETE with the other automakers around the world. And their failure to compete just got worse and worse and worse.
I think one of the very best examples was the case of the Ford Taurus. Yes, youngsters, once upon a time, that was actually the best-selling car in the country. But then, its competitors, well, “competed” by improving their cars, over and over and over and over again, while Ford just gave up and stopped competing.
FORD JUST PLAIN STOPPED COMPETING.
In the meantime, while other brands built up quality reputations that translated into higher and higher vehicle sales, Detroit continued its record of not competing, and the reliability of its vehicles became a sad joke.
Oh, “they have tried harder” here and there. They rode the truck/SUV craze to some nice short-term profits, but in doing so, they utterly ignorned the “car” side of their businesses. And the minute gas prices skyrocketed, they were standing around with their pants down.
So, that’s just a bit of perspective that probably quite a few of us here at TTAC and just about everywhere else have. The real bottom line for us is that we want to buy the most COMPETENT vehicles for our money we can find, not the most INCOMPETENT vehicles we can find. What’s so wrong with that?
And if Detroit has lots full of incompetent, inefficient, unreliable, unrefined vehicles that nobody will buy — and we call them out about that — then, again, what’s so wrong with that?
In the end, the criticism about the Detroit brands has been leveled at the “managers” who have run those companies — “into the ground.” And there is only one reason why these managers have received this criticism:
THEY HAVE EARNED IT.
“Just compete.” That’s all they have to do.
“Just compete.” That’s all that any of the other companies have been doing.
“Just compete.”
I never even heard of cardomain.com or Jen Whatshername until now. Has anyone looked at the site? What a waste of space! Its main purpose seems to be a place to show off your “ride”. After you peruse the blog for awhile, you’ll know less than when you started.
I personally mourn the state of the domestic auto industry, both from a nostalgic viewpoint and because I hate to see any business run into the ground. And I know I’m not alone.
There don’t seem to be many comments on the blogsite as a whole. As of a few minutes ago, there were three comments on Jen’s blog and two of them eloquently come to the defense of TTAC.
I’m a fan of the Big 3 and I come to TTAC every day!
I don’t think TTAC itself hates the domestics or wants to see them die off. They review cars and write about what they see and feel and also report news. The B&B themselves do have some amount of vitriol against the Big 3, unfairly or fairly depending on your viewpoint.
“If TTAC does not want negatives written about them then they should go about and make some changes to address their issues. But it seems more likely is that TTAC doesn’t care what other sites say about them.”
But the thing is, for whom is TTAC written? It is not for the likes of Jen Dunnaway. For those, the train is already gone. They missed it. They tried, but at the end of the day, they still don’t have a clue…
“TTAC is the mist of and the leader of Internet Auto Review Rebellion that’s taking place. It has happened to other communication and news sources, now it’s finally happening big time in the car internet world.”
The point is, at the end of the day, I don’t care about what the ignorant people believe. I’m just happy to be here. It’s a party going on, the problem is that for some the keg is only always half empty. Enjoy it while it lasts, because this is as fun as it gets on the internet. Being in the fore-front, and knowing that you are right, while the rest of the world is left in corporate spin and bullshit. I laugh at all the Lutzisms, I laugh at all the Jen Dunnaways of the world. They don’t need any help, they are so full of shit that they make fools of themselves just opening their mouths. I don’t really care what anybody outside this site thinks of TTAC. I just want to have a good time.
About 49% of Cardomain ‘whips’ have Detroit iron monikers. These whips represent cars-past. TTAC emphasis is perhaps more ‘where is all this headed’ aka cars-future.
cardomain.com is not some rinky-dink site. They are an automotive site that caters to the tuner crowd by letting them post pictures of their vehicles. It is the automotive version of myspace.com.
According to alexa.com, cardomain sees as much daily traffic as other popular automotive sites such as jalopnik, autoblog, and streetfire.net
With that said, I find it disappointing that some of the B&B have decided to resort to personal attacks of Ms Dunnaway and blithe dismissals of cardomain.com in response to her feelings about TTAC instead of crafting more rational responses to counter her claims. Such behavior is obviously not limited to Detroit’s ‘cheerleaders.’
quasimondo, “You don’t have to be a fan of Detroit to see how disproportionate the chronicling of Detroit’s missteps is compared to everyone else’s.”
Puh-leeze. Toyota’s making money. Honda’s making money. GM is losing gobs of money. Ford is losing gobs of money. Chrysler’s using the Cone of Silence to avoid people finding out how much money they’re losing.
Detroit’s missteps are disproportionate to everyone else’s. Disproportionate coverage is proportionate!
What has Toyota done wrong in a business sense, lately? Overcommitted to Tundras? Their product mix is still far more desireable than GMs. They produce 15K Priuses/month and, with $4 gas, the dealers can sell them at confiscatory prices. In spite of their business missteps, Toyota’s going to make money, anyway.
What has Honda done wrong in a business sense, lately? The Acura line isn’t as appealing as it could be. The Civic hybrid is not as popular as the Prius. Is any of that a big deal? They’re going to make money, anyway.
GM lost $36 billion last year and $15 billion in a single quarter this year. These are near-record losses. What is disporportionate about saying that the clowns gentlemen who have been running GM for 8 or 9 years apparently suck at running a car business have difficulty executing a plan to turn a profit and should go?
And, frankly, GM just invites scorn, the way they operate.
Look at the Volt… It’s years away, to sell in tiny quantities and GM’s got the smoke and mirrors going full tilt boogie on that project. They are advertising vaporware on TV! At $750K/30sec!
Compare that to the Camaro… which is late and, with $4 gas, will be little loved. It’s perfectly conventional, it’s most definitely not a car for the times and it’s late.
Does this inability to bring out a conventional and sensible vehicle in a reasonable amount of time suggest the Volt will debut smoothly? Heck, no.
Lutz did a considerable amount of boasting last year about the then-upcoming two-mode SUVs. Now, they have arrived and they sell in the very low hundreds. This program is, clearly, a failure. So, two SUV two-mode failures on the market and… surprise! They intend to introduce a third SUV two-mode! They’re not even trying something slightly different… like a pickup.
Does any of this keep Lutz from trash-talking Toyota’s ambitious and clearly successful product? Heck, no.
At least she linked back to you guys so both her readers can come look at the site.
KixStart,
And I won’t argue that GM, Ford, or Chrysler hasn’t made any mis-steps.
What I will say is that I find it funny that in the midst of all of this chronicling every failure of Detroit, both colossal and insignificant, and giving an editorial series a title that conjures up images of vultures hovering in for the kill, and making up awards that lampoon a particular Detroit bigwig and coming up with fancy catchphrases like ‘the Big 2.2278298’, and driving home the notion that the downfall of any American automaker will have no significant impact on America’s economy, and dismissing technological developments like Ford’s ECOboost engine lineup, and making bold predictions on which Detroit company will go tits up that writer and reader alike would be shocked, SHOCKED to discover that people outside of TTAC think this place has a serious grudge against Detroit.
The missteps that Detroit make are amplified to the point that we’ll all laugh at Lutz if his company Cadillac blows a tire and then toss around a chuckle about about GM quality, while the mistakes made by Toyota or Honda are minimized to the point that we’re fooled into thinking it’s part of their Grand Design.
Of course, there’s nothing wrong with that. It’s just disingenuous to say that you care about Detroit when the style of writing and commenting used here shows otherwise.
I dunno, three Escorts includes a diesel powered wagon and a diesel parts car.. Shouldn’t people here be fawning over her car choice? And an ’81 AMC Eagle?
I’m amused by them, and wish I had the time and skills to keep weird old dinosaurs like those on the road.
Anyways, that’s her opinion. I thought the Challenger entry wasn’t sour grapes at Chrysler as much as surprise and dealers’ policies on the V6 Challenger.
I must admit that Mike’s reviews are chock full of errors that the criticism is valid.
Stephan Wilkinson,
I am with you. I was always drawn in to this site for reviews that contain sincerity and witty humor. The editorials, I’ve always felt, were an extension of that. Sometimes these blog-like daily news items seem to contain less and less of that special TTAC quality that made them originally stand out.
Defensive articles like this do nothing to help TTAC’s reputation. I can’t see articles like the cardomain one linked above alienating readers that would have otherwise stuck around here in the first place.
Why are you guys even interested in the opinions of this lady? As soon as I want to read a silly review of the Cobalt that says it’s a great car, I’ll have a look at cardomain – after checking edmunds.
quasimondo,
For a start, Lutz deserves the lampooning. He spent a fair amount of time in ’06 and ’07 boasting over the two-mode hybrids. Where are they now? And, in spite of these stellar flops, he continues… His “Easter Bunny” comments and frequent trash-talking of Toyota – which has a successful hybrid product since 1997 – and off-the-cuff and entirely uninformed remarks are worthy of ridicule.
Detroit’s technological advances get mentioned and they get the mention they deserve.
Ecoboost? It’s an incremental improvement in Ford’s line. Did you think it was the Second Coming or something? And is it available today? Well, pardon me for not getting too excited. I think maybe Ford’s hybrid Escape gets short shrift but, then again, their hybrid program is a single model and sales are stuck at 2500/month or so for quite a while. Ford isn’t advancing this technology inot the market the way Toyota is.
GM’s technological advnaces are… arguable. The two-mode is a marketing flop. What did they sell last month? 300? And it has been in production for 2/3 of a year? Flop. The Volt, about which they talk incessantly, is still vaporware. And when it’s finally realized in hardware, they plan to build 10K per year. Not per month… per year. They’ll ramp to 60K/year in 2012. Maybe.
The Volt isn’t important to GM – or the country – until it’s available in mass quantity and we have no idea when that will be. But they sure do talk about it. We need to save GM so they can build 10K cars which may or may not be technological leaders in 2011?
Toyota’s and Honda’s missteps? They get mentioned. Too many Tundras? I heard that on TTAC. Civic hybrid trunk not big enough and doesn’t sell well? I heard that on TTAC. Toyota and Honda are still profitable? I heard that on TTAC, too.
Their missteps aren’t minimized by TTAC, their missteps are minimized by smart management. Proportionate coverage for things that aren’t significant problems is little coverage.
Dude, losing $36 billion in a year isn’t something that happens every day to well-run companies that deserve a lot of praise. It’s special. And it’s disproportionate.
Oh, and it’s really remarkable that Wagoner still has his job. In fact, it’s not just remarkable, it’s nuts. It’s like promoting the captain of the Exxon Valdez to Commodore of the Fleet.
What’s “funny” to me is that, in spite of the testimony of income statement and balance sheet to the incompetence of Wagoner and Lutz, that CarDomain’s Dunnaway thinks TTAC’s coverage has some sort of bias because… people on TTAC say Wagoner and Lutz are incompetent. These guys are trooping up to DC with their hands out, so that they can apparently continue business-as-usual with our tax money and TTAC’s coverage is biased? Dunnaway has got to get a grip on reality.
Words are cheap. It’s easy for her to be a hero of the people and denounce anyone pointing out the failures of the domestic brands. For a realistic assessment of how real stakeholders are faring just start adding up the retirement nest-eggs lost with the plummeting the stock price and the number of jobs lost in employee cutbacks. Then come tell me that the domestics are doing a good job and have a desirable product. It’s absurd to look into the faces of those who are losing and have lost their livelihoods and give the CEO’s and design chiefs a pat on the back. What they need is for someone to say, hey it’s not okay to run your company into the ground because people are depending on you. That’s what TTAC’s doing and they’re doing a fair and even job of it too.
Yeah, but she’s better looking than Farago!
But Mr Farago’s wife is a lot better looking than her!
But seriously, are we degenerating into, “Oh yeah! Well you’re ugly!”
Jen is entitled to her opinion, as are we, if she doesn’t like us, oh well, I’m still going to get to sleep tonight. My mission is to write the truth about the car exactly as I see it, and let the chips fall where they lie.
This woman takes the great car litany–“Mustangs, Corvairs, GTOs…”–that thoots et al expound, and adds her own champion: Escort. After what she’s done with a one-off (well, two) original Detroit econobox, and the miles she’s logged on an AMC, in the current century no less, she can be forgiven for a little defensiveness towards the home teams. And she obviously hasn’t read the TTAC Ford Flex review.
Simple enough: if you want to see her squirm in a cognitive dissonance sorta way, just ask what SHE thinks about Detroit Management these days. Or if you’re already over it, don’t.
@ Anyone defending TTAC … your ivory tower ideals don’t really affect how other sites view you.
Bottom line – TTAC should not take offense to the notion that others view them negatively. If the writers here absolutely believe that they’re doing the right thing, then it is pointless to assume that they will have 100% concurrence with their perspective.
As it was pointed out – the result of this news-post was that the “Best and Brightest” resorted to ad hominem attacks against Dunnaway and CarDomain. If TTAC wants to stand for being “better” than the rest – then why care what the rest has to say?
There is a requisite amount of hubris that is necessary to keep this site going. Often times the articles written here are pure fiction with creative prose filling in the gaps to reach a conclusion. As a result, it is easy to interpret a level of arrogance with the writers. This is because the writers believe they are the “right” ones, so they are telling the truth. As long as this conviction exists, then the site will draw the dissatisfaction of others.
As I mentioned in a previous post – there are only 3 truths in the supply-side of the automotive industry. The laws of physics; historical data; and the notion that the companies involved have a desire to make money. Everything else is just an inference or speculation. Rationalized ideals are not the truth. They are merely opinion.
What I don’t understand is why you expect a dealer to give you a car for a test drive when you have absolutely no intention of buying it. Do you compensate them in any way? If not, I would consider you a giant azz for using up these poor peoples time when they are trying to make a living. On top of that, how can you possibly get a good enough feel for a car on a 30 minute test drive? To me, that’s just dishonest.
“On top of that, how can you possibly get a good enough feel for a car on a 30 minute test drive? To me, that’s just dishonest.”
It’s also how a lot of “unknowns” in the automotive journalism industry get their hands on cars. Not everyone can call in to some massive company and get a free test car handed to them.
I understand that the “unknowns” do that. I just think it’s dishonest and sleazy. At the very least, TTAC should have some advertising for the dealers who help them out.
Well said Justin. If Detroit puts out trash, then someone has to call them out on it. And it’s not as if EVERY car TTAC reviews is automatically deemed a shitbox. The Malibu is one such vehicle that at least shows that someone deep inside GM is at least thinking in the right direction.
Ah well….not everyone will agree with this site but hey. you speak the truth and everyone will believe you.
Thank you for the opportunity to comment on TTAC itself.
I always feel TTAC is lowering itself by responding to the likes of Ms. Dunnaway.
I also don’t like it when TTAC criticizes other web sites, or when RF goes off on one of his rants about the NYT (As if anyone regards the NYT as anything but a rag). Just write good articles and editorials, and don’t worry about what others are doing/saying.
decided that the Challenger isn’t really that big a deal after all.
It’s not. Let’s be honest. A warmed up 70s design riding on a previous gen E-class platform is NOT a big deal. Anyone else thinking differently should join the clueless execs at the helm of what could have been some perfectly good car companies.
Jen has got it exactly the opposite way. The question that should be asked is why there isn’t more negative press about the Detroit state of mind and affairs?
It’s indeed a sad state of affairs in American free press, internet mouth-piece for all or not, when companies are evidently going belly up as even a German credit analyst working for the Italian bank can see all the way from Europe where BTW the GM and Ford are doing fine, and yet there is hardly a peep in the press (and I mean internet press as well) about it. GM loses 60B dollars over the last 2 years, yet the top management has the full support of the board, hardly any criticism is written anywhere. Is it because the most reporters aren’t driving domestics anyway so why should they care?
“Just compete.” That’s all they have to do.
“Just compete.” That’s all that any of the other companies have been doing.
“Just compete.”
This is so far wide of the mark as to require some form of comment. The vehicles coming out of Detroit right now are of a consistently high standard – independent research backs that. Fuel economy is up with the leaders if not leading, Ford has more vehicles with 5* safety ratings than anyone else. To suggest that the hard working people at Ford, GM and Chrysler have given up competing is quite ridiculous and does a huge disservice to some very stressed but passionate people who are in the process of turning these companies around.
jamie1: “The vehicles coming out of Detroit right now are of a consistently high standard – independent research backs that.”
Are you talking about Initial Quality studies? If I was replacing my car every three months, I guess I’d care about that. The ultimate JDP time horizon is three years, my newest car is 8 years old. There’s no proof that 2003 Detroit vehicles are class-leading in reliability. There won’t be any proof that a 2008 GM is class-leading in 5-year reliability (or longer) until 2013 (or later). Detroit may not like it but if I’m wondering what my best resource is for understanding the long-term quality of a new Detroit car, it’s to look at the long-term reliability of a 2003 Detroit car.
The most important recent signal from GM about long-term vehicle reliablility was their reduction in Saab’s warranty coverage. That speaks volumes.
TTAC has to be honest with itself that even though they bring continuous insight into the troubles of the big 3, it seems that’s all it does. A neutral looking from the outside would also say this, there is definitely a disproportionate editorial against the domestics. So why does TTAC moan if they are not given certain access to areas/vehicles, what do you really expect? I guess you have to take it if you want to dish it out. Should the site be renamed, the truth about the fact we don’t like the domestics, I know its not as catchy, but there’s definitely a truth to it.
There’s also a major angst with GM which is very evident. Even though certain news makes a deathwatch for GM, Ford and Chrysler have had similar opportunities to be written about, but most of the time it makes the news section if at all. I’m trying to remember the occasions, I know it sounds vague and I apologise for that, if I can remember the examples I will re-post them, but it seems to be in TTAC’s mission statement to gun for GM as a whole. That does become tiresome. I’ve just noticed teh new bailout watch, is this just another excuse to have a mini-deathwatch same old have a go at GM, excuse me while i wake up. As people have pointed out there is a lot of good happening, product is getting better. Yes there are problems, yes there needs to be changes but maybe TTAC should be looking at things as if the glass is half full and the bar man is getting ready to fill you up? Public perception need to change, maybe it could start here too.
A side point since TTAC expanded to go after the bigger advertising bucks, I think Katie pointed out before that something was lost from the original site/group. As a comparison TTAC has to watch what it’s doing, just like Toyota its getting bigger, but at the sacrifice of quality? Personally for that fact that I’m getting bored with the Death watches (I’m betting we will get to 300 at least) and the constant I told you so attitude from the ivory towers, I’m starting to come less and less. Which is a shame as I used to visit all the time to read the witty and thoughtful insights that come from the community here.
I did not interpret that news blog as whining or crying on TTAC’s part. I thought it was pointing out how ridiculous these dealers are being with these new Challenger tin cans that Chrysler is sending them.
“Collector’s Item”?! You’ve got to be kidding me.
Another reason why the Big 2.8 are in serious trouble: Delusions of Grandeur.
I think CarDomain pretty much nailed it. Lets not kid ourselves. There are two types of readers at this site. The first type (The Minority) is here for entertainment purposes, there is good writing going on here, and often interersting subject matter.
The second type, that comprises the vast majority of readers, are the domestic hating cheerleaders. These are the readers that the site caters to for the most part. These readers constantly get their egos stroked by being referred to as the “best and brightest” yet many seem incapable of independent thought and take everything scattered across the pages of this site as gospel.
Yep, Car Domain nailed it, this site has a mission, its conclusions have already been drawn, its readers are ready to devour every word….. hook, line and sinker. Honestly, who among us is ever surprised by the conclusions reached by the authors? I see a title to an article and pretty much know whats coming.
That being said, I love you guys, this site is hugely entertaining.
I religiously read TTAC, Autoblog, and Jalopnik. Each provides a certain “slant” on car news that I enjoy.
– Jalopnik is great for a laugh and the lighter side of car news. Their commentators are hilarious, though some regulation of the flamers would be nice.
– Autoblog seems to have a larger staff and I visit them frequently for their constant new content. But their comments section is utterly useless and if I only got my news from them I’d think everything is just great with Detriot.
– TTAC is the hard hitter. I get no nonsense, non-filtered news. Sure it can be a little harsh but overall it’s what automotive blogging and automotive journalism in general needs. I’d liken TTAC to the BBC while the rest are like CNN and Hollywood Insider. Yeah those news outlets break a story occasionally but I have to dredge my way through stories of Bigfoot and horrendous “top ten” lists. This is also the only site I bother to comment on.
If I could only get my car news from one source it would be here. Who reads CarDomain anyway?
LUNDQIK :
Yes, we all read those other sights since we have no lives and if there is any, its cars.
Even adding the Autochannel, KickingTires and AutoNews…at the end of the day…THIS is where you come for the good community interaction.
This sight allows us to bring it all together and dissect, tear it down and expose it.
TTAC is where you get the best writing, the best interplay between TTAC and the rest of us, its loyal participants.
No matter how often you search other sights, which you need in order to speak knowledgeably about them and to add to this library of useful information, TTAC is the only place I feel you get the best, most intelligent interaction.
Jen D is obviously a lightweight. She should stay away from the New England coast. She’d be blown out to sea in the first light wind.
FYI: I extended an invitation to Jen to post a full editorial/rant here on TTAC (without editing).
She threw down a link to a ‘graph on the Challenger with some photos.
“The Challenger had a big-car feel like the AMC I’m used to, but it stuck to the track like it was on rails. Though I was a little apprehensive after what happened to the last one, the new Challenger wouldn’t break loose even when I pushed it. There was one back straightaway on the CMS road course where I was able to punch it to just over 90 mph with the hammer down on the 6.1 L Hemi, not realizing that they want you to keep the speed down around 50 mph during “touring laps.”
I tried to post a comment explaining that was nice, but it was time to put up or shut up. TTAC’s ready, willing and able to prove that we accept all points-of-view.
That comment seems stuck in cardomain’s spam filter…
I’m glad you guys finally got the photo right.
This is so far wide of the mark as to require some form of comment. The vehicles coming out of Detroit right now are of a consistently high standard – independent research backs that. Fuel economy is up with the leaders if not leading, Ford has more vehicles with 5* safety ratings than anyone else. To suggest that the hard working people at Ford, GM and Chrysler have given up competing is quite ridiculous and does a huge disservice to some very stressed but passionate people who are in the process of turning these companies around.
The vehicles coming out of Detroit are not at a consistently high standard. There are many cars from Detroit that can compete with the best of what Honda and Toyota bring, but you can’t honestly look at Chrysler and say that the Sebrings and Calibers they churn out are a high standard.
GM has done a fantastic job with the Malibu, and I bet people here would love if they came out with more cars like that instead of sending re-badged Korean cars to battle the Fit and Yaris and the Cobalt to battle the Civic and Corolla. And even then, most people think GM can compete. The main axe to grind is that Rick Wagoner is running the company into the ground, but nobody seems to want to do anything about it.
Ford also has some nice cars that compete, but have admitted to many mistakes regarding their product mix. Again, I think most people here hope they do well. They see world-beating products Ford builds in Europe and hopes they get built here.
I say TTAC should continue to do what it does. I wouldn’t have written the news item in this way. Perhaps they should interview Ms. Dunnaway and grant her an interview as well. Make the transcripts available as well.
As much as I love this site (and I really, really do), I’m not sure anything posted on cardomain.com about this site is worth commenting on.
Maybe that’s just me. Were it my baby, so to speak, perhaps I’d feel different, though.
The person she rode along with during OneLap this past year is my good friend Steven Rankins.
I went to the VIR section of that event and helped out both Jon K…and well Steven didn’t need any help, but I brought him some of his favorite potato chips. The important part being that of the action that happened at VIR, she was conspicuously absent for. I’m sure she heard plenty about it in the transit section to the next track (I think it was Beaverun). Despite that, her review of the day’s events and drama were in the same vein as her review of the Challenger: Weak sauce. Never did get the chance to talk to her while I was there, but she did wander around a bit without saying much and hiding behind what I refer to as the ‘hater blocker’ sized sunglasses. I hadn’t yet thought much of her due to her amazingly simple and really incomplete coverage of what is a seriously packed event. I’m still underwhelmed.
-Biggly
Bravo, Robert, on extending her an invite (unedited at that) to address the so called “import bias” that some say is apparent here at TTAC. That’s what makes this site one of the absolute greatest sites about cars on the internet, the fact that, ANYONE can pen an article and submit it. As long as it has some merit, I’m sure you’d publish it, even if it was contrary to your personal opinion about a company. But no one can spin this $#*@ into gold, the ship has sailed, and it’s already sunk, the only question is when it’ll slide off of the iceberg it’s impaled itself on and finally slip beneath the waves. The majority at TTAC don’t want to see that happen, but there is no alternative. Years ago Farago, you even published a damned good plan for saving GM! Pontiac for sports cars, Chevy for entry level, first car, college grads, Cadillac world’s premier luxury sedan, Buick as the perfectly tailored old person’s car. Had they heeded this back then, and instituted the sweeping changes they needed to, perhaps they’d be thriving by now. Anyone who accuses TTAC of having an anti-American slant is just blowing smoke. Anyone who accuses TTAC of having an anti-mismanagement/theft of taxpayers’ or investors’ monies/stupidity/vaporware/etc. stance would be spot on.