![\"In this handout provided by General Motors, Michigan Department of Agriculture Director Mitch Irwin (L) and General Motors Vehicle Emissions Issues Director Bob Babik (R) look on as Meijer CEO Hank Meijer tests the latest E85 ethanol pump installation at the Meijer station on Ford Road during a press conference announcing the opening of the 20th Meijer\'s E85 fueling location in the state of Michigan February 27, 2007 in Canton, Michigan.\"](https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/e85-smiles.jpg "\\"In this handout provided by General Motors, Michigan Department of Agriculture Director Mitch Irwin (L) and General Motors Vehicle Emissions Issues Director Bob Babik (R) look on as Meijer CEO Hank Meijer tests the latest E85 ethanol pump installation at the Meijer station on Ford Road during a press conference announcing the opening of the 20th Meijer\'s E85 fueling location in the state of Michigan February 27, 2007 in Canton, Michigan.\\"")
I'm not sure we're looking at one of those tip of the iceberg deals, but this story from the AP [via the Chicago Tribune] raises the possibility. "State investigators claim a company spiked unleaded gasoline and 10-percent ethanol-blended fuel with cheaper E85 at stations in Sumner and Fairbank… In mid-June, the Weights and Measures Bureau of the state agriculture department found that Pronto Market stations were receiving shipments of E85 from a Jesup distributor, but had neither an E85 fuel tank nor a pump. An investigator checked out the stations and found the unleaded gas and 10-percent ethanol blend each had between 15 and 18 percent ethanol in field tests, said Ivan Hankins of the weights and measures bureau." Given the current ethanol glut, that's only going to get larger, is this a sign of things to come? Meanwhile, this is not the kind of publicity the corn-juice boosters will like to hear. Oh well.
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As a consumer, I believe I have the right to have PROPER, ACCURATE, AND EASILY UNDERSTANDABLE LABELING for the products I buy.
“May contain” up to “x percent” is neither proper, accurate, NOR easily understandable.
I have the right to know what’s in the underground tank at the moment I am purchasing it.
You must not live in Michigan, ZoomZoom. Our fearless “leaders” took the law which said all pumps must indicate when there is 10% ethanol in the fuel, and tossed it into the dustbin.
We only have “smell” to go by as a guide, or the truthfulness of the gas station owners. Naturally, nearly none of the people manning the gas stations have any clue about ethanol content.
I own a Prius. When I fill up and I see a 15% reduction in MPG, then I know – E10.
I’m literally down to ONE gas station (a BP) in rural Traverse City Michigan which has no ethanol in the gasoline, locally. It’s about 8 miles out of my way, but 15% MPG improvement is worth it.
My wife’s 2007 Hyundai Sonata four cylinder “only” loses about 6% efficiency on E10, which is like saying “what are complaining about losing a hand for, that fellow over there lost a leg”.
Not forgetting that the imbecile in charge of the state of Minnesota wants to implement (i.e. force into law) E20 in all gas stations in his state. Of course, the fact that this would VOID all new car warrantees – he apparently does not care about. Lucky for Minnesotans and visitors, the EPA has thus far succeeded in banning such laws.
I hope that some day we wake up as a nation and stop putting food into our tanks.
Looks like someone in the federal government has awakened and they are quietly pushing for a cessation of all oil imports into the United States within 5 years (it’ll take 10), by making garbage into oil. I hope it happens and drives this idiocy of ethanol off the playing table.
Almost forgot to mention – one of my employer’s company cars, a BMW, went to the BMW store as it quit running. Ended up that there was 20% ethanol in the tank. We have NO E85 fuel stations within several hundred miles, and the car is used 99% locally and hadn’t travelled recently. Therefore, it was patently obvious that one of the local gas stations had dumped ethanol into the gasoline to make extra profit. Of course, the problem was NOT covered by warrantee.
I wish I could run a CNG (compressed natural gas) fuel car, but the only manufacturer in the US does not officially sell them in Michigan, only California and New York (that being the Honda Civic CNG).
This phenomenon isn’t just limited to ethanol.
There is a long standing conspiracy theory that Super unleaded (i.e Shell V-Power or BP Ultimate) is actually regular unleaded. I don’t think it’s true as it would suicide for a company like BP or Shell or stage such a scam.
As for ethanol, in the UK it is now LAW for all fuels to be blended with at least 2.5% biofuel (i.e ethanol) with that figure rising to 5% in the near future.
Maybe I’m missing something here, but I don’t understand why government have such a hard-on for biofuels. The Brazilian government isn’t that powerful that it can twist the arms of other government (with all due respect) so why the big push towards ethanol?
If the UK government wanted to push towards a cleaner fuel they should have gone with LPG. The UK has an abundance of it and it doesn’t take food out of the mouths of people who need it.
This is a typical mistake that happens when the gasoline and ethanol for regular gasohol is mix is calculated by mass instead of volume.
KatiePuckrik :
I’m speculating here, but I imagine the infatuation with crop based biofuels has something to do with farm lobbies.
The NY times had an article a while ago on the “Gas Squad,” who apparently ensure that the quantity and type of fuel is correct: City’s ‘Gas Squad’ Keeps the Pumps Honest
“This is a typical mistake that happens when the gasoline and ethanol for regular gasohol is mix is calculated by mass instead of volume.”
Uh, no. They have virtually the same density, specific gravity( 0.78), lbs per gallon, you name it. Mass or volume mixing will make virtually no difference.
What does make a difference is greed somewhere along the supply chain. Anyone buying 18% “E10” is being ripped off, their money stolen. Simple as that. There is less energy per volume or mass in ethanol than gasoline.
I thought Brazil was using methanol from tree bark, not ethanol from foodstuffs. Anyway, I know that E85 is an absolute ripoff, but I heard that some ethanol in gasoline is necessary to replace MTBE as an anti-knocking agent.
Brazil makes it from sugarcane, which grows year-round there with little effort. There is not much impact to food supplies, since there is plenty to go around (and corn syrup is used instead of sugar in much of the world)
The US grows corn for part of the year, and is increasingly diverting more of that towards subsidized ethanol production.
We’re like the short white guy who wants to play ball with the Brazilians, so we get leg implants to be taller, then we take steroids to jump higher. Sorry US, our pasty little white ass just wasn’t cut out for this game.
Biofuels is a way to sidestep the WTO and subsidize the farmers. Why do you think the USA heavily subsidizes domestic product and places a tariff on imported ethanol?
Doesn’t seem possible that the UK could produce that much ethanol. Even in the USA with there huge corn crop and a big percentage used for ethanol they still only produce about in the 6% range of the gasoline used.
Increasingly stations here have E85 added to gas. I notice a decrease in gas mileage when buying gas with E85 added. I guess, thanks to the farm lobby, we won’t have much choice in the matter soon.
This pisses me off so much. I really, really think this country’s entire obsession with increasing control over everything is really, really going overboard. Everything is being dumbed down and made more expensive to benefit a rich minority.
A revolution is coming.
I dont think ethanol is “evil”. At least it is (almost) carbon-neutral, so my grandchilds will not ask me “what is snow, grandpa?”.
Maybe I’m missing something here, but I don’t understand why government have such a hard-on for biofuels
Money and Image.
Archer Daniels Midland, Monsanto et al (not to mention the actual biofuel manufacturers) have a very powerful lobby, and an easy “But it’s for the farmers, and the farmers are Real Americans** who Have It Tough! You wouldn’t kick a Real American when he’s down, would you?” image to fall back on.
I imagine that the EU has a similar problem with agricultural subsidies and the farm lobby (I know Canada does) though perhaps not without the huge popular culture hand grenade that is the American Farmer. Even urban voters flinch at the idea of picking on farmers, never mind the rural ones. You’d probably have an easier time repealing child labour laws than clawing back farm subsidies.
No politician since Pierre Trudeau has had the stones to stand up to the farm lobby, which is pretty much what the biofuel industry is riding on the coattails of.
** (sub in your nationality of choice)
If someone attempts to make E10 by using 10% ethanol by mass and 90% gasoline by mass they will end up with E21. This is due to differences in the molecular weight.
C2H5OH (ethanol) has a molecular weight of 46 kg/kmol.
C8H15 (assumed gasoline for ease of calculations) has a molecular weight of 111 kg/kmol.
10% ethanol divided by it’s molecular weight, 46 gives you .00217 kmol per kg mass.
90% gasoline divided by it’s molecular weight, 111 gives you .008108 kmol per kg mass.
This type of mixing would happen if they were attempting to make gasohol (E10) using the truck scales where they would fill the tanker trailers.
Khutuck, ethanol made from corn is not “almost carbon-neutral.” The energy returned for energy invested comes out to about 1.3 to 1. So, you are using almost as much energy to create the ethanol as you get from it. The energy inputs to corn ethanol are diesel (for farm tractors and transport trucks,since pipelines can’t carry ethanol), natural gas (for synthetic fertilizer and heat for distilling the alcohol), and electricity for various things. More than 50% of electricity in this country comes from burning coal (huge carbon output and other nasty things); the other two main electricity production methods are natural gas and nuclear. So, you’re really just converting coal, natural gas, oil, and uranium into ethanol at a rate not much better than break-even from an energy and/or carbon standpoint.
Additional problems with growing lots of corn are top-soil depletion, farmland erosion, and massive water use for irrigation.
Other ethanol techniques are showing some promise–just as they have been for the last 30 years. Currently and for the forceable future, however, ethanol mandates means corn ethanol mandates as there is not a more effective large-scale means of creating ethanol at this time.
Some people suggest importing ethanol from Brazil, where their tropical climate is suited to sugarcane ethanol. However, Brazil consumes all of the ethanol it makes and then further consumes 3x that amount additional in gasoline. What sense does it make to create ethanol in Brazil, ship it 2000 miles to the USA, and then cause Brazil to increase its gasoline use by exactly the same amount that the USA decreases its gasoline use. If anything, the USA should be shipping all its ethanol to Brazil so that Brazil could go 100% E85 in all vehicles and the USA vehicles wouldn’t have to go through the effort of dealing with E10 or E20 or E-anything.
Bootleg moonshine found in fuel pumps :).
“No politician since Pierre Trudeau has had the stones to stand up to the farm lobby, which is pretty much what the biofuel industry is riding on the coattails of.”
Trudeau the old communist put in the farm market boards. Some stones.
Why ethanol?
It is renewable. It keeps more wealth in the country. At some point gasoline supplies are going to decline due to Peak Oil.
If we haven’t transitioned at least partially to something else the car industry will be in more trouble than it is now. There are no other currently viable liquid fuel alternative to gasoline except ethanol.
It is not ethanol’s fault that greedy distributors overprice the stuff. Don’t buy it if the price is not low enough to compensate for the reduced mileage. When stupid people overpay for ethanol it just encourages the price ripoffs.
Ideally ethanol should be priced low enough to give a savings incentive for its use. But distributors are not satisfied with the blending subsidies and markups and have found that a lot of people are oblivious to the lower mileage.
So they are charging what the market will bear and apparently getting away with it. Only buy ethanol when it is appropriately priced which seems to be a lot easier to do in the Midwest than in other parts of the country.
Ethanol will still be available long after the gasoline is gone. Get use to it.
Stock `88 Mustang fuel results(calculated from multiple tanks worth):
100% gasoline: 20-21 mpg consistant. Any tank, any week. One of those two numbers always.
E10: 18-19mpg. Anytime.
E85: 16-17mpg. Terrible cold start performance(won’t hardly idle at all) and down on power(what was I expecting, I know, I know.)
Have been tempted to rebuild the motor and make it require E85(cheaper.). Have a really high compression motor…. Is it about 40hp per compression point increase?
9:1 now, 14:1 or higher? I’d go as high as I could take it. 105 octane and all… Stuff smells pretty funky too.
All gasoline in the state of California is now E10. Fortuantly, E85 is also extremely rare in the state (only five publicly accessable E85 pumps in the entire state), so I suspect it’s all actually E10 as opposed to E27 or whatever.
97escort :
August 19th, 2008 at 4:52 pm
Ethanol will still be available long after the gasoline is gone. Get use to it.
*Maybe* – but the way we are implementing ethanol into our fuel supply is wrong. From start to finish.