GM Car Czar Bob Lutz' infamous pre-Katrina remark, "Rich people don't care about gas," has once again come back to haunt him. This time it arrives in the form of a $71,685 two-mode hybrid; a rebadged Chevy Suburban SUV called the Cadillac Escalade Hybrid. Here's the problem: Bob's remark implied that rich people are environmentally unconscious (and, by extension GM). If that's true– and I'm not saying it isn't– why would anyone pay an extra $14,795 (over the base 'Slade) or $3600 (for the two-mode propulsion system's premium) to buy a gas – electric version of the Escalade? Is it because they care about looking like they care about the price of gas? And if that's right– and I'm not saying it is– wasn't Maximum Bob wrong in the first place? And if these rich people really cared about looking like they cared about the price of gas, why would they buy a hybrid SUV (20 mpg city) instead of something more fuel efficient (if a lot less big and infinitely less bling)? How many rich, luxury-loving, boat-towing, gas price or carbon-footprint-aware SUV drivers are there, anyway? Last question (I swear): how much did this doomed PR-mobile cost GM? OK, one more. How long before those hybrid stickers and badges show up on eBay? [First photo of one of these in the wild– customer owned– gets an honorable mention.]
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why would anyone pay an extra $14,795 to buy a gas – electric version of the Escalade?
Because it’s $27,205 cheaper premium than what you’d pay for a gas/electric version of the Lexus LS.
quasimondo:
Because it’s $27,205 cheaper premium than what you’d pay for a gas/electric version of the Lexus LS.
So the Cadillac Escalade Hybrid is the answer to the Lexus LS600h L? Huh. I wonder why that thought never occurred to me…
“First photo of one of these in the wild– customer owned– gets an honorable mention.”
You might as well solicit pictures of Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster.
“why would anyone pay an extra $14,795 to buy a gas – electric version of the Escalade?”
Because, with proper petrol nutrition and a 24-month gestation period, the hatch opens and out pops a Baby Volt.
So the Cadillac Escalade Hybrid is the answer to the Lexus LS600h L? Huh. I wonder why that thought never occurred to me…
It is unless GM goes crazy and decides to build a hybrid DTS.
According to this site just 83 LSh’s left dealer lots last month, we’ll see if the EH can top that. Yukahoe hybrid sales were 351 in July 2008.
They all do get about the same EPA rated mileage, 20-ish overall.
They could have just scrapped the plans for this thing and given away a free Cobalt with every regular Escalade purchase. Better yet, they could bring back the Cimarron “by Cadillac” for all of those concerned luxury buyers who want a small, yet luxurious car. This time it could be a rebadged Aveo, since the Cavalier is gone.
I see the Tahoe Hybrid comes with $6K in rebates at the moment. Wasn’t this the SUV that was not going to be discounted since GM is/was already losing money on every sale? I give the EH until Oct. when the rebates will start to appear on its hood.
According to left lane news
http://www.leftlanenews.com/cadillac-announces-pricing-for-escalade-hybrid.html
the price premium is only $3600 considering this Escalade has almost all equipment standard.
All these battery car buyers should remember that the cost to replace the batteries is in the thousands. This will adversely affect resale value over say a diesel model where the engine is considered just broken in for the second owner. And the diesel adds little more weight and no space needed for batteries. The bigger the vehicle is the more the diesel comes out ahead. The entire high priced super sized luxury brand is topped out anyway. The super rich will always buy a few the rest of us will avoid this niche like the plague. All of these band-aid cars are simply stop gaps until better technology and integrated designs arrive. Whether the Americaln companies will hang on long enough to get in this new game starting around 2010 is problematical. The only way I see they get to build the new generation products is with governmental intervention. This will not be pretty.
I guess everyone who buys a Sclade in the first place (still) is going to opt for the hybrid…
Not that this helps GM much.
@Shaker:
You win the LOL award for the day. That was superb.
jerry weber, The price of a Prius battery at the parts counter is now down to about $3K. That’s not bad. Toyota’s cost is probably less. And battery prices will probably continue to decline, as manufacturing tech improves.
Nothing says “I love Mother Earth” like a big “HYBRID” sticker between chrome Double-Dub rims.
Idiots.
The bean counter (sorry, can’t help it) in me sez that even with a $3,600 nominal cost penalty, assuming 12 miles per year, it would take approximately 3 years to recover that cost differential @ approx 12k miles per year, assuming a constant $4 per gallon fuel cost. Does anybody know if there is an insurance cost penalty for driving a hybrid version? If so, that lengthens the payback period on the investment. Then there’s the likely maintenance cost differential, depreciation, and amortization of battery replacement costs…..
Persons who have the money to afford one of these vehicles must be rational people, in order to have accumulated the wealth to afford one in the first place, am I right?
Can’t imagine how the marketing team at GM justified this….there are damned few circumstances where anyone with a modicum of sense would consider this a wise, rational investment….
Note to GM….just because you CAN build something, it does not follow that you SHOULD.
If GM is driven by their bean-counters, as many posters on this site allege, how does this misbegotten idea get through despite the lack of economic rationality? The mind quails….
I’d get one if I had the $80K to spend on it. There isn’t a cooler or nicer car available than the Escalade and a Hybrid version is just that more appealing.
I think you have to give GM (and Chrysler) a break on the Hybrid SUVs. It is a good idea because the amount of fuel saved for the people who buy these types of vehicles is significant. People WILL still keep buying large SUVs. Maybe not in significant numbers right now but no one can predict the whims of car buyers 2,5,10 years from now. As far as the price is concerned, these systems are expensive. Putting them in their most expensive vehicles helps pay the development costs. Also having the Hybrid system in the SUVs helps prove the technology for future systems in future cars. It may be nothing special now but I would expect in the future the batteries to be stronger, the towing capacity to be better (I’m crossing my fingers for 10K or more), drivetrains will be smoother.
Sorry…another question occurred to me having to do with economies of scale. If a hybrid system is such a good idea for a vehicle of this scale, why is this option not available on the Silverado? It seems to me that the on-demand torque from the electric motors would be potentially useful for hauling….having the system available to more mainstream vehicle such as the full-size pickup line would generate higher volumes, thus lowering the unit costs due to lower per-unit amortization of fixed costs….am I missing something here? Is the hybrid system somehow incompatible with the functions of a pick-up truck?
When I see an Escalade I can’t help thinking of the 6′ tall men I have seen on the Montel TV show who dress like women.
Silverado Two Mode Hybrid is coming in late 2008
Two mode Saturn VUE is coming also.
If the difference in price is truly only $3600, and Mark MacInnis’s number crunching is correct, then it wouldn’t be insane to lease one….if GMAC still offered that option. A 4 year lease would be under warranty, and the driver would likely come out a bit ahead, all while minimizing those painful $100 fillups.
This thing gets 20 mpg in the city, which is stupid. My Volvo V50 tiny wagon gets 20 mpg in the city. Wait, that’s stupid. No, what’s stupid is that my Volvo V50 didn’t come with the Escape’s hybrid drivetrain as an option. Now that’s stupid.
jerry weber :
All these battery car buyers should remember that the cost to replace the batteries is in the thousands.
I can’t speak for the GM system. In fact, I wouldn’t trust it at all. As far as I know, you might have to replace the batteries in a hybrid ‘Slade with every fillup of the gas tank.
However, this “woeful battery song” that people are singing (about hybrids in general) is starting to exasperate me.
KixStart :
jerry weber, The price of a Prius battery at the parts counter is now down to about $3K. That’s not bad. Toyota’s cost is probably less. And battery prices will probably continue to decline, as manufacturing tech improves.
Thank you.
At least with the Prius (and other Toyota hybrids using the HSD), here are a couple of points to remember:
1. Warranty is 8 years/100,000 miles on hybrid components, INCLUDING BATTERIES. California warranty goes to 150,000 miles.
2. The Prius (and other Toyota hybrids) are designed to neither overcharge or deep discharge their battery packs. The latter is especially hard on a battery, no matter what type it is (lead, nickel, lithium). By preventing deep discharge, the car’s computer extends battery life.
3. Prius batteries are nickel-metal hydride. They are recyclable, and they are in fact RECYCLED. Each battery module or pack has a phone number on it, with a rebate paid by Toyota for safe return.
4. Prius battery packs consist of 28 modules. Interchangable modules.
5. In 11 or 12 years, only two Prius batteries have been bad. If I recall correctly, neither had to be replaced in its entirety, because of their modular design.
I hope this dispells some common myths and misunderstandings.
And I hope it reduces the unreasonable, unfounded FEARS that people are perpetuating (whether intentionally or not) with these myths.
The 4.5L diesel offered in the 1/2 Ton Pickups & full sized SUVs is going to make a jumbo hybrid SUV a loosing proposition.
Now if they had the capability to use the pickup to power the job site with 3-5k of AC power I could see it adding real utility.
What on earth are they thinking?
That “HYBRID” decal should be chrome.
It’s all about MBG…More Bling per Gallon.
Seriously, though, are Escalade sales really enough to warrant futher investment? This isn’t a halo car, it’s a rappermobile.
It’s hard to see diesel catching on unless the price drops. What’s the long-range outlook on that?
Also, from a “green” perspective… I’m pretty sure diesel has more carbon in it and burning it will generate more CO2, volume for volume (I’m inferring this from the mass… diesel is denser than gasoline by a proportion similar to its heat value over gasoline – real chemists are invited to write in and tell me I’m a total ignoramus if I’m wrong).
In any event, presuming diesel pricing isn’t a huge deterrent and we’re not cranked up about being “green,” when is this 4.5L engine due out?
Wouldn’t GM get more mileage, so to speak, out of making a trick valve engine standard and including the aero improvements that went into the Yukahoe? I’d think both of those improvements wouldn’t cost much and should have a significant impact at highway speeds. The only reason not to do it is to make the hybrids look good – a total waste of time at their sales volumes.
I can’t speak for the GM system. In fact, I wouldn’t trust it at all. As far as I know, you might have to replace the batteries in a hybrid ‘Slade with every fillup of the gas tank.
You clearly know your stuff when it comes to Toyota’s HSD and Honda’s IMA, which is why I think it’s disappointing for you to know so little about GM’s two-mode system. Perhaps if you were aware that this system had been has been successfully in use in city buses for over five years, or that their coverage on hybrid components is also an 8yr/100k warranty, and that they also use modular nickel-metal hydride you might have just a smidgen of trust in this system.
Sigh…
Saab, up until GM gutted it, had exactly the demographics for hybrid acceptance: left-leaning, affluent, forgiving of quirkiness. A perfect launchpad for a hybrid platform. That several of my Saab-owning colleagues have either supplanted or augmented their Saabs with Priuses is telling.
And yet GM gives it to Cadillac in the form the Escalade? The vehicle that more or less defines conspicuous consumption? Brilliance in product planning strikes again! What’s next, a hybrid Camaro? Oh, oh wait, even better, a hybrid Corvette or Hummer H1!
I don’t understand why everyone is blasting this car so much. $3600 is a practically negligable premium to pay for the hybrid system. Some buyers who might have otherwise gone with a loaded Slade to travel 12/19 miles on each precious gallon are now getting 20/21. Even if it does say “Hybrid” along the side, there’s a lot of substance to this bling. And the $3600 is totally worth it.
Not to mention that the hybrid system is a good one, attached to the best car in the luxury full-size SUV segment. And it gets the same city mileage as a little Subaru Impreza! What’s so wrong with that?
As for the worth to GM…they’ve already hybridized the Tahoe, how expensive could this proposition be? It’s probably worth it just to help GM’s CAFE rating.
Profit margins.
SUV = money-maker. The bigger and more luxurious, the better….at least back when gas prices were under $3/gal.
Hybrid SUV = a chance to not only reap a metric frackload of money from SUVs, but the “hybrid” part is a two-fer: you not only get to push them out the door easier, but you also get to cash in on the hybrid craze and hype. Or so Lutz thought, in his infinite wisdom.
Luxury Hybrid SUV = $$$$$$$, theoretically.
Thing is, Lutz still believes the vast majority of car buyers are idiot schmucks who’ll lap up virtually anything Detroit throws at them. That thinking is the reason why the Japanese reign supreme in the US auto marketplace. And the reason why GM, Chrysler and perhaps even Ford will be remembered in the same vein as British Leyland, while the public goes about buying Toyotas and Hondas in their stead.
With the removal of leasing, nobody is going to buy an Escalade irrespective of it being a Hybrid or not.
Nice timing GM.
It costs GM virtually nothing to put this system in any of their full size trucks, so I guess they are hoping to be able to move a few more with little effort. Too bad “little effort” is what created GM’s problems.
I still can’t blame GM for trying this hybrid system in their SUV’s. Most people I know that own them – GM or otherwise – love the versatility but deplore the mileage. Even when gas was cheap this was a common theme. Now that it’s not, you would think the timing would be perfect. It seems like a have your and eat it too kind of thing. Since this is a marketing failure I guess SUV buyers have decided that they really didn’t need that SUV after all. I am willing to bet that the extra cost has less to do with the soft sales than the image issue. People are eating many thousands in depreciation to dump guzzlers to save a couple of K a year.
And as for Hybrid stickers showing up on eBay, yuk!! I think that huge H-Y-B-R-I-D banner on the sides probably cost a few sales…the dealers are going to be breaking out the hairdryers soon…
golden2husky: “It costs GM virtually nothing to put this system in any of their full size trucks, so I guess they are hoping to be able to move a few more with little effort. Too bad “little effort” is what created GM’s problems.”GM had a Silverado hybrid but the timing was so poor (gas was still relatively cheap) and such a weak effort (it was little more than an auxillary power source with negligible mpg improvement) that no one bought them. The bigger problem than too little effort (which GM is certainly guilty of) is that only Toyota seems to have been able to hit the marketing ‘sweet spot’ for hybrids with the Prius. Creating a hybrid with little to distinquish it from the model’s non-hybrid version just doesn’t work very well since the high cost takes so long to recoup. If not for the current steep price of gas, with the exception of the Prius, hybrid versions of non-hybrid vehicles would be languishing on dealer lots.
On the opposite end of the spectrum, a really outré hybrid that gets great gas mileage but is otherwise generally impractical doesn’t sell too well, either, as Honda found out with the first ever mass-produced hybrid, the outside-the-box Insight. It got outstanding gas mileage but was so small (a two seater with little cargo carrying ability) and expensive, that there were few takers. The Prius sells because it’s both unique in appearance, yet packaged efficiently enough to seemingly justify its higher price to consumers.
That’s why GM is betting so much on the Volt. It’s in the mold of the revolutionary appearance of the Prius, but still practical enough that, hopefully, consumers will be willing to fork over what will likely be an outrageous sum for the things. Given GM’s incredibly poor timing, it would not suprise to find the price of gas has dropped so low by the time the Volt makes it to dealer showrooms that no one will want one by then.
OTOH, if the price of gas is substantially over $4/gal when the Volt finally reaches production, the GM executves that green-lighted it will look like geniuses (as will those who approved the production of a $71k Escalade hybrid).
“OTOH, if the price of gas is substantially over $4/gal when the Volt finally reaches production, the GM executves that green-lighted it will look like geniuses (as will those who approved the production of a $71k Escalade hybrid).”
Given the Volt’s roughly $20k price premium, gasoline will truly have to be substantially over $4 gallon. But at that price, any 20 mpg vehicle (Escalade) will be unfashionable. So, I don’t really see how the Volt and Escalade could both be successful.
I also note that energy sources are somewhat interchangeable, so $8/gallon gasoline also implies a large increase in electricity prices. How could electricity and gasoline be interchangeable? Easy: people switch from gasoline to natural gas (Honda GX, for example), but the extra demand for natural gas drives prices of that source of energy, which is one of the main sources of energy for electricity generation. Similarly, coal-to-liquids (diesel) is going to increase the price of coal and thus electricity. More ethanol means more synthetic fertilizers created with natural gas–again increasing use of natural gas, the price of natural gas, and the price of electricity.
Ultimately the solution is to use much less energy overall, not just shift from using one source to using another. The Volt will use energy more efficiently (and that’s good!), but getting two people out of two 15 MPG vehicles and into 30 MPG vehicles would do as much as getting a single person out of a 15 MPG vehicle and into a Volt. Given the enormous price premium of the Volt, I think shifting people to mere 30 MPG cars would be more effective. There are plenty of really nice cars (in other countries) that are $40k and deliver 30 MPG–perhaps we should bring those vehicles here immediately.
I see Escalade Hybrids about 2-3 times per week.
So far i’ve been checking out their plates, all GM plates, except for i think one, i’ll have to keep my eye open
Cobalt, Aveo, G5, and G6. Put the word ‘Hybrid’ behind them, and you might boost the visibility of GM’s two main sales channels. Who knows, a few folks might actually consider buying them. And to keep the dreaming going, the ones that would buy them might even pay close to MSRP!
Escalade Hybrid…not so much.
“First photo of one of these in the wild– customer owned– gets an honorable mention.”
Well, you know the General can’t afford to lease ’em!
I assume this means a pic of a rig with normal (non-manufacturer) plates on it? (current commentor, living in Michigan, now grabbing camera)
I’m gonna put a big hybrid sticker on my car. Somebody told me they add 2-3 wheel mpg’s.
If you dislike Escalades, you will loathe this.
If you don’t, you won’t.
Put em on the money OK who will pay?????
Bitch bitch beatch….Some want to do their part
by “claiming” they paid a lot to “HELP”..THESE
M.S.R.P’s are way past a joke!The jags that claimed they paid $50,000 for a SUBURBAN when they were “chic”.BIG negotiator’s!Heck PT’S cruisers brought more additional mark up at REGULAR DEALER auto auctions
in 2000.2001.We have one on our used car lot that we priced below what was then the added monies.Who ever pays sticker for any of this stuff?
Lets price em all at 72 months payment with 25%
down payment with a yearly depreciation 20%.Make sense?
Thanks again!
Otto Sales 53074
Justin:
Thanks (but don’t encourage me!) ;-)
This weekend I had a very interesting conversation with Hybrid engineers in Dearborn. Their claim is that the General still can’t get their new Lithium battery certified (in-house certification) beyond the 3-6 month use cycle. In fact the similar design in Dearborn suffers the same problems. In their view to produce any significant numbers of the BOLT or any other domestic hybrid (at this point in time) will be a complete failure. All Lithium Battery designs in Detroit are facing serious problems. Whether they all can work the bugs out within 2 years is a guessing game now. The clock is ticking.
Meanwhile, quality and proven designs are streaming in from overseas. Without protectionist trade policies, say goodbye to the American car manufacturer. With protectionist trade policies, enjoy your heaping junk from Detroit. They have really blown themselves away this time. Sad to see them go.
golden2husky: “It costs GM virtually nothing to put this system in any of their full size trucks, so I guess they are hoping to be able to move a few more with little effort.”
It’s extremely doubtful that it costs GM “virtually nothing.” Estimates suggest it costs GM $10K more per vehicle.
Moreover, they add it ONLY to the super-premium flavors of each (to hide the hybrid markup amongst the other premium options – with their inflated markups) and they don’t add it to a value-priced Tahoe or Yukon. If it cost virtually nothing… let’s say the $3600 alleged premium they put on the loaded Escalade… a value-oriented buyer could get a Tahoe or Yukon hybrid for under $40K… and it might be worth it to someone who tows something but hates high fuel prices and fears higher.
A hybrid premium of $3600 could be repaid in 5 years or so… This isn’t really a bad idea. With a hybrid premium of $3600, GM would actually rule the large hybrid market. But $3600 is not the real figure. GM apparently can’t do a hybrid for low cost… as in the Prius.
But I guess they also can’t stand to lose face, so they build a system, to prove that they are the leader… but they build a system no one wants, so they have proved nothing.