The Detroit News reports that Senator Barack Obama wants to help Michigan et al. help him become president of the United States (surprise!). To that end, Barack will gladly use your tax money to encourage Detroit to, as my 14-year-old puts it, party like a Barack star. Speaking at the Lansing Center, "Obama proposed $4 billion in federal loans and loan guarantees to help the automakers meet his goal [of 1m hybrids by 2015]– a figure he first mentioned last month in a letter to United Auto Workers leaders — and a $7,000 tax credit to drivers who buy plug-in hybrids." That is, it has to be said, small beer. So Detroit's lackeys said it. "U.S. Rep. John Dingell, D-Dearborn, one of the auto industry's staunchest supporters in Washington, said the domestic companies could require $30 billion or more to meet the goal for their initiatives." Of course, if the real goal was more hybrids, why not let Toyota in on the action? Or the feds could just let the free market do its thing. Anyway… Obama also "modified" his position on domestic drilling (hey, sure, why not?), and proposed selling some oil from the U.S. strategic reserve [just before the election]. In case you were wondering…
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How about a $2000 tax credit for those who properly inflate their tires? Or give people $1000 vouchers toward bicycles. 1 million hybrids by 2015, eh? Might as well make it 100 billion, not gonna happen (domestically). I think a 1 billion dollar ad campaign on the importance of proper tire inflation is in order.
Doesn’t Obama have Michigan in the bag anyway?
Ray, Obama doesn’t have Michigan in the bag–actually dead even. We are getting all the “battleground states” ads.
And isn’t McCain mocking the idea of proper tire inflation being important? I know plenty of studies have been done looking at how many people have underinflated tires, and extrapolating that to how much fuel could be saved if that were corrected. More fuel would be saved than what the offshore drilling would yield, and potentially could happen immediately.
I think it’s a better idea to support the domestic automakers on the principle of encouraging US based manufacturing (and recognizing that other governments support their manufacturers), not necessarily the hybrid thing.
But you know the candidates (both of them) don’t have a snowball’s chance in hell of spending big bucks on anything, thanks to W’s profligate spending.
Turns out the off shore drilling would net about 200,000 barrels a day – 1% of the 20 million barrels per day the US burns through.
If we all inflated our tires properly they estimate that to save 2%. Properly maintaining our vehicles would be roughly an additional 3% savings.
Time had a nice write up on this – the offshore drilling would only benefit the oil companies – and do nothing to reduce our dependence on foreign oil. 1% is nothing.
I find it not surprising in the least that a week after McCain accepting a million dollar campaign infusion from the oil companies he boasted about drilling off of our shores.
How about they give me $4500 and I will switch from my 600cc bike to a 250cc cruiser that makes the prius look like a gas pig ?
“Obama proposed…the automakers meet his goal [of 1m hybrids by 2015]…” Hmm…didn’t Toyota just pass the 1 million mark with sales of the Prius in May? Yeah, they did. And being that 60% of all Priora are sold in NA, Obama’s definitely wasting his breath. Earth to Barack: The domestics DON’T understand hybrids!
As much as I enjoyed the F22 Raptor video on YouTube, I am left shaking my head over its relevance to the American public. We seem to have no problem when the government spends tens of billions to develop new weapons systems (making our weapons the most marketable on earth), but feel it is creeping socialism to invest in our automobile companies.
A part of the reason that GM, Ford and Chrysler are in such dire straits is that tax, fuel and safety standards were aligned toward trucks and SUV’s, so they responded in kind. Perhaps it’s time to try to save what few jobs we have left with investment in our automobile companies.
There is nothing the government can do that will save GM from themselves. It will only delay the inevitable. Ford will probaly make it. Only a change in the management at GM can save them and its even now probably too late.
Also why should the government help Cerebrus simply so they can sell Chyrsler off to some foreign company.
If I didn’t already have plenty of air pressure gauges already (and use them) I might go to a McSame rally just to pick up a freebie. And watch the others drink the kool-aid.
Yup. Invest in our automobile companies. Like Toyota, Nissan, and Honda, so that they make more cars over here.
The whole “profits go overseas” argument gets rather retarded when you have a choice of profits going “overseas” or losses ending up over here.
As for hybrids and tax credits, the solution is pretty simple. Give a ~$4000 tax credit for anything bigger than a golf cart that breaks 50mpg NOW, and watch Ford start cranking out hybrids and TDCi Fiestas like there’s no tomorrow. Sure, it’ll send GM and Chrysler into the toilet, but I’d rather have one good domestic manufacturer than three bad ones.
I don’t care if a candidate is pro anything, has faith or likes guns. Energy policy is the biggest deciding factor for me. Get on the right path for alternative energy and (yes!) you can reduce our dependence on foreign oil, eliminate our involvement in the Middle East, save the planet AND help the average American spend less on energy.
Of the two Obama has the most aggressive plan. Is it realistic? Who knows? But something has to be done. I’m all for using tax money for something I can actually use.
Hey Barack. I know you can’t wait to start repaying all of those “supporters” you’re hitting up for around US$500M in campaign contributions.
Slow down big fellow.
In this case it isn’t: Yes We CAN!, It is: Yes We DID!
The US Govt Spent ~US$1B on hybrid R&D that was completed over 10 years ago.
Google: Partnership_for_a_New_Generation_of_Vehicles
Let’s withhold the loan guarantees until the Three Little Pigs put those vehicles in the showroom before you re-fill the trough.
66Nova: “I think it’s a better idea to support the domestic automakers on the principle of encouraging US based manufacturing (and recognizing that other governments support their manufacturers), not necessarily the hybrid thing.”
Me, too. However, the #1 force working against American manufacturing is American CEOs vigorously outsourcing everything they can to save a small amount of money, usually reaping a drop in quality.
66Nova: “But you know the candidates (both of them) don’t have a snowball’s chance in hell of spending big bucks on anything, thanks to W’s profligate spending.”
True enough. What’s worse is that we’re going to see interest rates rise (probably soon) and this will drive up expenditures – to service the debt – even without ANY additional spending initiatives from the winner.
edgett :
We seem to have no problem when the government spends tens of billions to develop new weapons systems (making our weapons the most marketable on earth), but feel it is creeping socialism to invest in our automobile companies.
Except the government is actually tasked with our national defense. They don’t loan money to defence contractors to bail them out when they F up.
I like Robstars idea I really want a new bike, except I really want to go in the opposite direction and go from my 500cc 60mpg standard to a 600cc naked sport bike that gets in the 40’s.
Obama’s an idiot, I hate him already, guess that makes him perfect for President. 1 million hybrid by 2015 is impossible for the domestics. Is that 1 million total onthe road or 1 million sales per year, if it’s the latter even with Toyota leading the pack I don’t think the battery needs could keep up in that time. Plus he forgets you have to have 1 million buyers for thos hybrids. I see the uselessness of CAFE happening all over again in a new form. What does it take to get politicians that are not so damn stupid, I hate always having to choose between dumb and dumber.
Since Toyota is ramping up Prius production and a re-done version is coming out, plus Honda is going to roll out their Honius soon, there will be another million on the road by 2015 easily. But they will be Toyotas and Hondas.
Oh but those aren’t plug-in? Wanna make a bet? Toyota has been working on plug-ins, and you can bet that they will be selling plug-in Priii en-mass before Volt Job 1 rolls off the line. Even if the Gen 3(!) Prius debuts without plug-in capability look for it in the second year (2010 of course).
@z31:
Except the government is actually tasked with our national defense. They don’t loan money to defence contractors to bail them out when they F up.
And defense contractors populate their upper echelons with retired military who then use their connections at the Pentagon to keep the money train rolling. The domestics could learn a thing or two from defense contractors.
I like Alex Rashev’s idea, considering some scooters & motorcycles are sub $4k, I’d be getting it for free!!
Plug-In hybrids?
Who here realizes that in order to recharge a plug-in hybrid or all-electric car, tons and tons of CO2 etc get spewed into the atmosphere from the dirty coal and gas burning plants we use to generate most of our electricity? Thanks, of course, to the Obamas and Pelosis of the world who block any and all attempts to build clean power plants.
Well, Obama will flip flop on nuclear too pretty soon. I said a couple of months ago that Obama will have to become McCain in order to win. He is well on his way to flip-flopping right into McCain’s shoes.
As for inflating tires and ‘tuning up our cars’ – BS, BO. Absolute BS. As for off-shore providing a pittance of oil? More BS. And then there’s ANWR. McCain needs to flip-flop on that BEFORE Obama does. Where the oil is in ANWR could be called the ghetto of Alaska. It is not a pristine, wildlife-filled wilderness but rather a huge mud flat. DRILL for God’s sake before our economy is destroyed.
Would someone ask Mr. Obama to explain:
1. How this would help the US economy long-term, and 2. How would he propose we pay for this?
Implicit in the proposal that the Detroit 2.8 trim their executive salaries to Toyondissan executive compensation levels. I am not against people making as much money as they can. But I would be most def against any money going to the US auto industry whilst incompetent fools like RedInk Rick at GM are bringing home lottery-winner paychecks. It would be obscene for that to happen….
Here’s a headline for a little perspective:
(2001)
Bush To Spend $500b if Your Tax Money to Blow Up Brown People for No Real Reason
Seriously, on a Federal level, $4b is chump change, and energy independence is just where we should be spending our tax dollars, it gets the Saudis out of our pockets. I don’t know exactly where I stand on Govt. helping out businesses like this, but I like to see my tax dollars going to domestic initiatives that have a long-term positive impact on my quality of life.
Heck, $4B won’t be enough of a financing package to keep them running in C11.
Barak’s plan is a bad joke designed to keep folks in Michigan awake. It is interesting, from a political perspective, to see if he the balls to continue to talk about conservation.
If you believe the VMT stats (they are not granular) then every car in the US drove 10 miles less in July. That resulted in demand destruction of about 900,000 b/d of oil. That is more than the Alberta oil sand production.
Trying to push US VMT down 25% or so — or back to levels of around 1992, would result in demand destruction of about 5 million barrels of oil a day. That is about TWICE what China imports every day.
1992 was not so long ago. Ask every American to drive 100 miles less a month. Difficult – yes. Possible — maybe. Does BHO have the political capital to make that appeal? No.
So just give another $4 billion of our money to Detroit.
@kazoomaloo – thanks for the perspective.
Whether or not assistance from the government is used appropriately is a separate issue. The SUV/Truck scam was “assistance” from the government which was poorly planned and more poorly executed (as in, when profits from these things were highest, where did the R&D money go?).
The larger question is, what is national defense? Is it simply spending $600b/year on military and weapons or does it have to do with creating a lasting economy with jobs where people actually manufacture something useful? Since our military spending is seven times that of China or Russia (both nominal allies at this point) and nearly 100 times that of Iran, perhaps we could take a little of this money and spend it on a national security which involves jobs in America. This isn’t necessarily corporate give-a-ways, but incentives to create strategic thinking. And if it should include a tax provision in which only the first $500,000 or so of per-executive compensation was deductible to the corporation, we might find that boards of directors were less lavish with the executive payroll. Surely there are some hardy souls out there who would be interested in creating healthy companies for a mere pittance salary like half a million bucks a year.
Point one:
According to the article in the Detroit News: “Obama proposed $4 billion in federal loans and loan guarantees to help the automakers meet his goal — a figure he first mentioned last month in a letter to United Auto Workers leaders — and a $7,000 tax credit to drivers who buy plug-in hybrids.” (Emphasis mine)
Point two: Obama said he support offshore drilling as part of an energy package that includes:
-use it or lose it provisions in lease agreements for drilling on public lands
-environmental guarantees to pay economic damages (think Florida tourism and fishing) and cleanup costs for spills.
-guarantees that any oil extracted on public lands will be sold nationally, not on the international market.
Since the Republicons will never agree to these things, his real position has not changed.
The Republicons want an up or down vote on offshore drilling, so they can use the current price shock as a pretext to do what they have always wanted to do: give away public assets to private corporations. But the Dem won’t roll over this time like they did for the Iraq war authorization or the Patriot Act.
When people realize that there are millions of acres under lease by the oil companies which they have not even explored, and when they understand the U.S. taxpayer is supposed to accept the risk of environmental damage with no guarantees that the oil will be sold nationally, (as in the Republicon proposal); they will see this for what it is – another giveaway to companies who claim they are not exploiting high oil prices, but who are, as with Exxon-Mobil, making record profits. Exxon made $11 billion in profits last quarter, the record for any U.S. company.
Hybrids, We Don’t Need No Stinkin’ Hybrids
Just Inflate your tires!!!!!
By the way, we have PLENTY of Oil available in our Country. We just have to drill for it and refine it.
And no, it will not take 10 or 12 or 20 years to start getting it.
I have no love for oil companies, but they are a business and are entitled to make money. What I want is to be able to afford to heat my house (I use oil heat) and drive my car.
Face the facts, for at least the next 40 to 50 years we are going to need oil. I’m sure that as technology improves we will move away from oil and that’s just fine and dandy.
I’m all for “Alternative” energy, but where is it???? How many years do we have to wait before we can fly planes with “Alternative Energy”?
Tredshift,
We do not have plenty of oil in our country. That’s been proven. It’s not BS.
And oddly enough NASCAR, Bush, Gore, AAA, and quite a few others have pushed the inflate your tires angle for years for good reason – it works.
“The Bush Administration estimates that expanded offshore drilling could increase oil production by 200,000 bbl. per day by 2030. We use about 20 million bbl. per day, so that would meet about 1% of our demand two decades from now. Meanwhile, efficiency experts say that keeping tires inflated can improve gas mileage 3%, and regular maintenance can add another 4%. Many drivers already follow their advice, but if everyone did, we could immediately reduce demand several percentage points.”
From: http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1829354,00.html
Another thing to consider about your oil is plentiful comment:
“And one more goodie from the grumpy Toyota brain trust: “liquid peak” (every conceivable liquid fuel from petroleum, coal and biofuel) arrives in 2018. That’s when global demand will outstrip capacity to produce them all.”
From: https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/volt-birth-watch-70-tesla-death-watch-14-karma-birth-watch-2-toyotas-death-watch/
What does it tell you when the worlds largest automaker believes that we’ll reach the point demand exceeds supply by 2018 (10 years from now)?
carlos.negros: Point two: Obama said he support offshore drilling as part of an energy package that includes:
-use it or lose it provisions in lease agreements for drilling on public lands
-environmental guarantees to pay economic damages (think Florida tourism and fishing) and cleanup costs for spills.
-guarantees that any oil extracted on public lands will be sold nationally, not on the international market.
Since the Republicons will never agree to these things, his real position has not changed.
And if you think that the Democrats will agree to them, when push comes to shove, you just fell off the turnip truck.
carlos.negros: But the Dem won’t roll over this time like they did for the Iraq war authorization or the Patriot Act.
No, they will just give it to their favorites, as opposed to the ones favored by Republicans.
I find it difficult to get too concerned about any pronouncements by the O man. He’ll revise it by tomorrow anyway. It’s all about change….
Figures he would waste taxpayer money in Dearbornistan.
Look for Toyota and Honda to put those vehicles on the road, with or without Uncle Sam’s help.
If they can make hybrids fun, without squishy brakes, steering, and worse dynamics, then we’ll buy them.
Well Orian…
According to the US Dept of the Interior 7/30/08:
“The Outer Continental Shelf currently provides 27 percent of U.S. domestic oil production and 15 percent of domestic natural gas production-most from the Gulf of Mexico. THE AREAS UNDER A CONGRESSIONAL BAN CONTAIN AN ADDITIONAL 18 BILLION BARRELS OF OIL AND 76 TRILLION CUBIC FEET OF NATURAL GAS IN YET-TO-BE-DISCOVERED FIELDS
THOSE NUMBERS ARE CONSIDERED CONSERVATIVE ESTIMATES….”
Further….released 7/23/08
“The area north of the Artic Circle has an estimated 90 BILLION BARRELS of undiscovered, technically recoverable oil, 1,670 TRILLION cubic feet of technically recoverable natural gas and 44 BILLION BARRELS of recoverable natural gas liquids” …
Not to mention the reserves in ANWAR (easily 1 MILLION BARRELS PER DAY) and not to mention that the LIQUID HYDROCARBON available from American Coal Reserves EXCEEDS THE CRUDE OIL RESERVES OF THE ENTIRE WORLD (and that’s NOT counting what’s in Canada).
So, are we REALLY Running on EMPTY??????
Orian Said:
Turns out the off shore drilling would net about 200,000 barrels a day – 1% of the 20 million barrels per day the US burns through.
If we all inflated our tires properly they estimate that to save 2%. Properly maintaining our vehicles would be roughly an additional 3% savings.
Huh? Time’s info makes no sense. Save 2%-5% of what? 20,000,000 barrels? Or their car’s overall gas mileage? Isn’t that also assuming EVERYONE has underinflated tires and not “properly maintaining” their vehicles? That also assumes 20M barrels go to gasoline for cars. Not so. It’s about 14M for transportation, including aviation, diesel and autos. Out of that maybe half is used for autos. So boo to Time’s “research”.
OK, you guys, I have a plan – let’s all go to our far-right and far-left websites (depending on our personal affiliation) and pull up skewed numbers on how there is either a)no oil left anywhere in the world and Big Oil is a cabal of devil-men or b)quadrillions of gallons of oil easily accessible if tree-hugging dems would just let the honest people at Exxon dig for it.
The “Plenty of Oil vs. No Oil” debate is asinine as, whether we have it or not, I think anybody that logically assesses the situation would see that running our economy with a non-renewable, depleting, polluting resource is a game that we can only play for so long. Whether you love the environment or think Global Warming is a concept invented by non-churchgoing satanists is immaterial – we need a better solution. It is far better for America’s future if we are on the leading edge of the search for sustainable energy so when the next energy revolution takes place we’re not stuck sucking up to the Chinese or Japanese or Europeans the same way we have to kowtow to the Middle Eastern oil countries today.
@Tredshift: So, are we REALLY Running on EMPTY??????
Only when it comes to effective government.
@kazoomaloo : Awesome post.
kazoomaloo:
+++++++++++++++++++++!
Three years in the Senate. One of which running for President. A babe in the woods. I thought the Democratic primaries were the funniest thing Ive ever seen. But watching Democrats support this guy with a straight face leaves me gasping for air. It reminds me of the Monty Python black knight scenario with the black knight.
He’s not qualified. Yes he is.
He hasn’t any experience. That ok.
He hasn’t any economic military or diplomatic back round. He speaks well.
Now he want to bail out the US auto industry with taxpayer money ?
Stop it man your killing me.
John Stewart was asked during the primary season if he thought the American people would have difficulty voting for a woman or a black man.
He said “No one asked in 2000 if the American people would have difficulty voting for a moron.”
Eisenhower was a general with no political experience. Nixon was an ex-VP who was widely hated. Bush I was an ex-VP. Reagan, Clinton and G.W. Bush were ex-governors. The job asks for someone who can think on their feet, select excellent advisors and provide leadership. Experience as a senator is in large part about raising funds to remain a senator. Some of the most successful business leaders of all time came out of nowhere.