Some of you may remember last week when I "advised" my friend to go ahead and purchase a Citroen SM. Your collective reaction was swift and merciless. So much so that she didn't buy it. However, I got a very frenzied phone call from her yesterday. She was at a Honda dealer, they were all out of Fits. But there were two cars she liked and now she needed my advice. In the white corner, with just 1,000 miles on the clock is a 2008 4-banga, automatic Accord. Priced to move at $21,600. In the kinda-pewter, kinda-gunmetal corner is a 2006 Infiniti G35. Also a slushbox, but with a very healthy VQ V6. While it's cheaper than the accord (just $20,000) it has 50,000 miles on it. "Well," I began. "The accord is the more logical choice. It's essentially brand new. It'll get better mileage than the G and most likely last forever. The Infiniti's engine will last even longer than the Honda's (those VTEC headgaskets love to die) but you'll start getting Lucasian electrical gremlins at 100,000 miles and there is no question the AC, CV joints and windows will stop working by 150,000. No question." And then I paused. Could I in good faith really advise someone to buy an Accord — especially a slushy four-cylinder — instead of a RWD entry-level luxury/performance 3-Series competitor? No way in hell! "You know what though, the $1,600 you save on the Infiniti will cover the gas mileage difference. Also, Accords are one of the most stolen cars. You should get the G35." Bad?
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Not bad, good!
I too appeal to the ‘in good conscience’ argument. Who wants an Accord? No one. Some people want a car, so they end up with an Accord because it’s easy. Eschew mundanity, I say! Buy the 280HP near-luxury four-door sports car!
Classic.
It depends on what she’s like and where her priorities are. If she can appreciate the Infiniti, you made the right call. If she just wanted transportation, then no. Why not a less-used Infiniti and pay a little more? Get the (imo) improved, new body style, perhaps?
If this girl is even moderately intelligent, and if it’s going to be 100% her responsibility for purchase and maintenance, then just present her with all of the facts, and all of the known pros/cons for each car.
Then step aside and let her decide.
If you are involved with this girl and you are going to have her car problems added to your honey-do list, then tell her which one you’re more (or less) willing to work on/be responsible for.
Unlike the Citroen SM foolishness, this one is a coin-flip to me with pluses on each side. Also, I think you’re being overly negative on the Infiniti’s electrical failings with the “no question” stuff. I don’t see a really bad choice here. Myself, I’d take the Infiniti and fix what went wrong (from what I know, they’re at least decently reliable), and enjoy myself.
Perhaps Mr. Karesh would like to weigh in on this one?
50 to 100k is a long time down the road. Odds are she will get something else eventually before those issues come up.
Go for the infinity but get an aftermarket warranty. They cover things like that and considering how expensive Infinity can be to repair it could be worth it.
I’d take an essentially brand-new Accord over an Infiniti with 80K km on it (sorry, I’m a metric boy :) ) personally.
Then again, I really don’t terribly care what others think about what I drive. I care about what I think about what I drive.
The Accord is a good car (so much so that I have an ’07 EX-L – with a stick, mind – in the driveway).
If she’s not going to drive the car ultra-hard, then the FWD vs. RWD argument isn’t going to matter much. Frankly, where I live, living with a little torque steer when I’m letting my testosterone out is worth it for the better traction during snow season. (Yes, you can get a good set of Nokians to make up for it, but a FWD with Nokians is better still.)
As much as it would not be my own, personal choice, for her, the Honda…
A) Residual value – used 4bangahs are/will hold on to their value.
B) Balance of factory warranty — she’s covered for quite some time and with the Infiniti, not.
C) Dependability — I don’t want my daughter, wife, mother worrying about being stranded on a roadside…not that either vehicle poses much risk, but a Honda with 1000 on the clock? Golden.
D) Financing — she’ll likely get a better rate on the nearly new Honda than the mid-life Infiniti.
But she may be a hoon and not worried about warranties, financing and other common-sense concerns. Could you do worse than a G35 with 50k on it? Oh yes. And not many used sedans better.
However, if it was my daughter, Honda.
Even the 2003 G35s in my survey only had an average of 67,000 miles on them at the end of June. So I suspect Jonny is basing his prediction on other Nissans that have been around longer, perhaps the Maxima.
The 1998, 2000, and 2001 Maximas in my survey seem to start requiring more attention around the 100k mark. But the same can be said of most cars.
I should add that a few G35 owners have complained to me recently about the car’s highway fuel economy–low 20s in their experience. The automatic needs another ratio or two, and finally gets them for 2009.
Not that I’d ever recommend a Honda to anyone, but in this situation, I’d go for a virtually new, halfway-decent-looking (i.e., previous-generation) Accord over the presumably far-more-expensive-to-maintain Infiniti.
Also, you don’t mention “warranty,” which I presume would exist on the Accord, and not the Infiniti.
Finally, 1990-vintage Accords are among the most stolen cars, due to the number of them that exist, plus the fact that they’re easy to steal. The current intelligent chip-in-the-key systems do a very good job in avoiding vehicle thefts, and presumably the current-generation styling will keep so many Accords from cluttering up the roads. (Hee hee!)
Well, this lady seems pretty determined to abdicate responsibility on this car issue. Ideally, she would ask you for information on both cars and not put this $20,000 decision on your shoulders. The G35 will be a mighty nice car, I imagine she’ll get plenty of miles out of it. As long as she’s not getting a 30 year old French car, I think she’s going to be pretty happy, and if things start going fritzy 50,000 miles down the road, you can maybe blame her for not doing proper maintenance or something. Start planning now to deflect the inevitable blame you’ll receive for having chosen the car. In the meantime, soak up all the love for having directed her into an affordable luxury automobile.
Also, you’ll look like a smart-money guy for letting someone else eat the big fat depreciation on the Infiniti…
On strictly practical matters, the Accord still has the remainder of the factory warranty, requires only regular gas, will be cheaper to insure, and easier to drive in the snow. Unless you are a gearhead, the Accord is the sensible choice.
No reason buying a sports car with an automatic, right? No heel-toe action? Go with the econobox.
Screw warranties, money still grows on trees!
The 4cyl accord is too heavy to get out of its own way and needs to be thrashed all the way to the red line to get any sort of power out of it which begs for that head gasket to jump ship. The G35 is the right answer in this instance, hands down. My biggest surprise is that you, Johnny, have a friend that did not immedatly realize this.
Call me crazy but $21,600 doesn’t sound like a great price for an Accord with 1000 miles when the 2009’s are coming. Is it loaded to the gills?
Barring price(and you can never really do that) this would be a really hard choice for me to advise on also. Peace of mind over fun to drive, I typically always sway towards fun to drive.
My suggestion would have been to drive them both back to back, and drive them HARD, way harder then you would ever drive it yourself and listen to squeeks, rattles, suspension bangs and any misses in the tranny. Barring hearing anything really alarming weigh the choice against the enjoyable to drive factor. Remember this is a first model year Accord it might not be as trouble free as you thing, and believe it or not but Honda spits out lemons every now and then.
2004 Accord EX-L 5-speed MANUAL owner here. The 160hp is more than enough for the 7th generation Accord to get out of its own way, especially without a slushbox. Its even borderline fun to drive. I can’t speak for 2008+ Accords.
Either way, that ’08 was too expensive. At that price, you might as well buy new for $21,900.
Why on earth didn’t she go look at a new 2009 Hyundai Sonata Limited with four (or V6 – she could drive both, figure out what she wants and take her choice)?
It’s probably 99% of the new Accord at 85% of the price, has a longer warrantee, and for “near new” money on a 4 cyl. Accord, at $21,000, she could have had a Sonata Limited with leather and ALL the bells & whistles.
Just drove my wife’s ’07 Sonata (4 cog automatic vs 5 cog for ’09’s and less power and fewer MPG than the new car) and it got us over 32 mpg on a 5000 mile journey most of which was 70 mph, and also which included Rocky Mountains, slow drives, city driving (Jasper, Banff, Lake Louise), WOT merges, you name it. I call that phenomenal.
Uh, the Infiniti will not have CV joints unless it is an AWD G35X model, no?
Anyway, the G35 hasn’t been out very long to accumulate much mileage and determine reliability. Our families collective experience has been that our Nissans/Infinitis, especially the VQ V6 variety, have been more reliable than any other make we’ve owned, and we have owned all the Japanese and American makes. Hondas are NOT quite as bulletproof as most people seem to believe, damn good, but not infalliable… take it from someone that has owned 4 from infancy to high mileage and has fixed many issues, some cheap and quick, others expensive and hard to pin down. Maybe we’re a statistical anomaly, but I’d trust the Infiniti for just as long as the Honda, but I would also be aware that when something does eventually break on either car it will be MUCH more expensive to fix on the Infiniti.
I’ve had CV joint problems with Hondas and Toyotas. Thats one fewer reason not to buy the Infiniti. Besides, I assume women like fun to drive cars too.
Suggest she wait a week or three and get a new Fit (UNLESS the stealer is absolutely rapacious with “additional dealer markup”.) It’s a great car, more usable room then either Accord or G35, brand new with warranty, much better fuel economy, fun with a stick.
menno:
I concur — Sonatas are excellent 4-doors. Very underrated.
I know this because I flogged one on the Tail of the Dragon.
That’s right.
If your friend went to buy a Fit, she probably shouldn’t waste her money on a car already out of warranty (the Infiniti), or a loaded-to-the-gills Accord. She’d be better off buying a two or three-year-old certified Honda with a huge warranty and piece of mind.
For that kind of money, my advice would be neither. Like the others, unless that Accord is totally loaded, I don’t see how $21,600 is a good deal. Heck, you could probably get a loaded brand new Mazda6s with a V6 for less, and you could certainly get many nicer 2-3 year old sedans/coupes for that price or less. If forced to choose, I’d probably chose the Infiniti just for the fun factor though the Accord is the sensible choice. Basically I don’t think their is a right or wrong answer to the question that she posed.
Whenever you’re recommending cars to the fairer sex (and I’m speaking in generalities here before anyone pounces) make the safe bet, get the Honda, for your own sake. Nobody ever got hurt in the long haul on a Accord bought at fair book value.
Now if she has more than two tattoos or piercings that can not be displayed in polite company, buy the G35 and hold the F*** on!
I think you should have recommended the Honda Accord. If her reason for being at the Honda dealership was a Fit, then power clearly wasn’t a concern for her. The Accord will undoubtedly be more reliable than the Infiniti, and if she has plans to keep the car for a long time, the Accord will also look like the more intelligent purchase as gas prices continue to climb.
Does she like driving? Because my sister is one of those women that simply don’t enjoy driving. She drove my uncle’s new BMW 335i, and remarked that “the steering wheel is too stiff. why did they make it so hard to turn?”. I hope you didn’t just recommend the G35 to a similar type of gal.
Why would the dealer have an Accord with 1K miles on it?
Over $21K does not seem like all that much of a deal for the Accord, unless it’s pretty heavily loaded.
All other things being equal, I’d take the Accord in this particular instance but I’d certainly consider getting a new one instead and I’d certainly float the idea of a $19K offer, rather than accept the dealer’s price.
Honestly…essentially a brand new car versus 50k car…it’s really no contest. Unless it has a CPO and 100k warranty then it’s a coin flip.
As for why a 1k car 2008 model is for sale…could have been a quick repossession from flake buyer or loaner car or dealer’s test car for all sales reps and staff (so they don’t load miles on the cars they sell).
lzaffuto
People call the G35 the rough muscle car of the entry level luxury group, but it does have an independant rear suspension, hence CV joints. Still, RWD puts much less pressure on the CV joints than FWD (no wierd turn angles for the wheels), so CV joints would not be near the top of my list for a modern RWD car.
Johnny
The big picture that you’re missing is that both of these cars are way overpriced – I’d say the sales people will be laughing about a pushover unless your friend gets another $3-4K off off either.
Oh yeah, and current generation Miatas/MX-5s are going in the mid-teens.
Depends on what she wants in a car. The Accord with less mileage will offer good reliable, inexpensive transportation for a long time. The Infinity will be a good 2 or 3 year fun car with better performance. A car guy would take the Infinity and get rid of it before too much could go wrong, and enjoy that V6 the whole time. If she is willing to give up her decision to you she gets what you want, regardless of what she wants. Wait until the first Infinity repair bill comes up then ask her what was the better decision.
She just called me and said that she thinks you are all very cute and that she’d like to pinch all of your cheeks.
She’s off to a Mazda dealer as I type…
Yawn. The Citreon was far more interesting on so many different levels.
Good God, they are completely different.
But my advice is to PLEASE visit your Mazda dealer and try their new Mazda6 4 cyl.
IF you insist upon putting a small 4 in these heavy (these two cars have really grown in size and weight latest series) then the Mazda6 really beats it.
She owes it to herself, as any car buyer, to get out and test drive the options.
Wanna bet anybody…?
After the reaction my wife had seeing and driving the Mazda6 4, she gets the Mazda.
This car realy has the looks!!!
Betcha!
Now she’s texting me about the Volvo C30…
Non car people should be given two choices:
Large Car – Toyota Camry
Small Car – Toyota Corolla
Anything more than that and you’re asking for trouble.
LOL! But it’s great if she unloads it before all the whack-ass things show up. One friend had the G35 6MT sedan, and the thing starting leaking water into the cabin and having strange electrical issues. So, he traded it in for a truck.
However, another friend got a G35 6MT coupe and it’s been fine, save for a little weird clutch pedal action during a couple autocrosses (which never happened, and they’re not racing even if they did!). But, I don’t think either of them crossed the 50K miles mark, so who knows how bad they’ll get.
I don’t think the Infiniti will be unreliable. Neither cars are a bad choice once you remove the need for absolute sportiness out of the equation. Personally, I think the Accord will be a more pleasant car to own, overall, for a non-enthusiast. Not to mention better gas mileage and more room.
Why not shop around at other dealerships for Fits? They’re pleasant peppy cars, even with only 109 horsepower.
Sounds like your friend needs to sit down and think about what she REALLY wants in a car before signing on the dotted line. With the cars you’ve listed just in this post, Jonny, it seems like her interests run the whole gamut. Either that means that she hasn’t really prioritized what she’s looking for in a new car, or else (and more likely) she’s going to buy a car based on emotion regardless of what you or any of the rest of us have to say about a particular model. There’s nothing wrong with that; it just means we’re relegated, ultimately, to the task of making the emotional buyer feel good about her (or his, in other cases) purchase after the dust has settled.
It sounds like you’re getting too involved in the final decision making process. You need to guide her, not tell her what to buy. When my friend’s mother wanted me to help her buy a vehicle, I sat down with her over coffee and discussed what type of vehicle she’d prefer. She intended to get a reasonably fuel efficient 4-door vehicle in a sedan or wagon. Preferably a wagon for the extra cargo space, but sedan would be okay if that was the best option. We discussed transmission options, and decided that a standard is best for her. Then we narrowed down the possible brands, which, based on our experiences, we both agreed should be of Japanese descent. So off we went to the Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Subaru, and Mazda dealers where she drove 14 different cars and decided on a Subaru Forester. I provided some input and talked about the cars with her, but she made her own informed decision. I still preferred the Mazda3 after all that test driving but there were a few cars she liked better than the 3.
I might suggest she take a step back and ask a few questions:
– how many miles/annum will she put on the car?
– how long does she plan to keep it?
– how often will there be more than 2 people in it?
– how often will se be carrying more than her purse?
– is parking an issue (i.e. is smaller better)?
– what is more important: $ or image?
– does she prefer sportiness over luxury?
I don’t know where this will lead, but I wonder if the MX-5, Mini and Civic might not be more appropriate choices.
I like the Accord in this instance, not just because of the reputation Honda has for being a safe bet, but, you know, some people actually LIKE accords. Not everyone who buys an Accord does so by default because that’s just ‘what you’re supposed to buy’ to get good value for your dollar. Aesthetics and intangibles play a big role in car buying – you should tell your friend, after all the specs have been looked at, and if deemed equal – get the one she likes best.
Jonny
Tell her to forget the C30 and go back to the Mazda dealer. Ford owns all of Volvo but only 1/3 of Mazda and the difference is clear.
I don’t know the entire back story, but my answer is new or used Miata or Kappa twin (turbo if she has the budget).
Paying to live in LA and driving a hardtop (especially FWD) is like paying for a house in Aspen when you don’t like to ski.
If she asked you she must be expecting a pistonhead response and thats what you gave. Sounds justifiable to me. Not that anyone ever listens to my advice, but I always advise that they get the most fun car that has a resonable chance of meeting their budget and needs.
Are not the car shows appearing soon in your area ? great opportunity to sit in all the cars, with minimal hassle. Also, is this not ‘tent-sale’ season on 2008’s ? What about color — kids won’t wear white t-shirts, because that is the donor color.
Tell her to test drive the C30, it is a blast to drive and looks amazing as well. Not to mention the fact that it is roomy, comfortable, and has an amazing sound system. You can’t go wrong with one.
What is wrong with you people?
Jonny, tell her to turn around and go back to the SM. It’s the only sensible option in this appliancial quicksand she’s stuck in.
Yes, I made up a word so that I could conjugate “appliance”.
People choose the answer they want by who they ask for advice. So don’t second-guess yourself because that would be missing the point.
I cant’ see anyone who was serious about that citreon liking the Honda too long. The infiniti was definitely the better choice, if for no other reason than she is less likely to see one next to her at every other stop light.
Why has no one suggested the TTAC TBAG champion, the Mazda 3?
Jonny – Ask HER in five years.
Jonny didn’t you first suggest a Subaru WRX and she thought it was too common and not unique enough, and now she is looking at a Honda Accord, does it get anymore generic than that, I guess a Camry.
It looks like she needs to spend some serious time on the internet looking at all kinds of cars and make a serious short list before she wastes anymore of your time. Her choices are all over the place.
I have a suggestion how about a first generation Infinity M45. They sold in small numbers so she will rarely see another one and that was one hell of a luxury hot rod.
I would go with the G35. I don’t really think those windows will stop working… c’mon. But it does really depend on the driver. Does she want a sports car or an appliance? Most people just want an appliance and the G35 is, from what I hear, fairly sporty with a harder than average ride.
As the previous commenter mentioned, why not Subaru WRX? That is better on gas, pretty fun to drive and very practical, especially in wagon form. I’ve seen decent used WRX wagons on craigslist for $6-$8k.
Wow, you’re really suggesting that Nissan makes a better motor than Honda? Is there some link to this head gasket problem, because I haven’t hear much about Accords dying.
IMO and experience, the Accord will be far more practical/reliable, but the Infiniti will be more fun to drive, and be more posh.
Unlessthere are no other dealers within 50 miles, I would have told her to keep looking for a fit–or maybe a civic.
USAFMech: Dammit man, you’re right!
If she likes to drive, the G was the right choice.
If she aims her car to direct it from point A to point B, the Accord was still overpriced, and she should have been looking at 4-pot Camries or Yarises.
It’s like comparing a pair of tennis shoes to stylish high heels. I mean, you don’t do a value comparison, you get what you like.
Like Axel said, the G35 is the way to go if she’s a car enthusiast. In any other case, the Accord is a better car for her.
If she’s just looking for basic transit, then she won’t really be able to enjoy the G for what its worth.
She might complain of how cheap the interior details (dashboard material, “metallic” trim pieces that are possibly worn out, etc.) look in comparison to the Accord, while ignoring the G35’s BMW-like handling, the mechanical beauty of its Front-Midship mounted VQ V6, and its Nissan Skyline roots.
Jonny – you screwed up – the 4 banger Accord doesn’t have aggressive variable valve lift, and mostly makes due with variable valve timing.
Not to mention your statement about VTEC head gaskets is completely unsubstantiated by mine or my colleague’s personal experiences(as the owner of 5 Civics, including several with motor swaps and original engines having various evolutions of VTEC throughout Honda’s years)
Hondas are indestructible.