So, like most of you, I spend a lot of time talking about cars with my friends when it's time for them to buy. Talking with a dear friend of mine who has $20,000 to spend, I ran through my usual you're-not-a-car-person holy trinity of Honda Fit/Mazda 3/Subaru Impreza — cars I believe achieve the perfect balance of cost, reliability and fun to drive. But in regard to that last point, while they are fun to drive, they ain't that fun. She inquired about Audis and Volkswagens. Der Germans would mean used and I can't in good faith advise a dear friend to get a use Audi/VW, can I? BMW? Well, I told her, you could get a lotta BMW for $20,000, but you could also be burning wheel bearings and frying ECUs (or whatever other weird gremlins 50,000 mile BMWs develop). The conversation went on for a bit, and then I showed her a 1972 Citoren SM (see photo) I've been tracking on eBay Motors for a few days. $9,000. Lifetime California car. Well maintained, no rust and the hydraulics work. 3 owners. Life is short. SM stands for "Sport Maserati." It has a Maserati engine. You kinda need to own a car like this once in your life. She's single, no children and she can afford it. And the $11,000 she saves will keep a couple of French and Italian mechanics fat and drunk off table wine for a few years to come. What do you think?
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is this even a question? yes, duh. If there is an option between “Buy a Citroen SM” and “buy something else”, the answer is ALWAYS “buy the SM.” Come on.
That’s so crazy, it just might work!
Kidding, that’s just crazy.
I heard Carlos Santana owned one.
Is there a second choice? Those Maserati/Citroen malaise engines like to pile up internally into tinkly bits. I would get one for a third car but remove and save the original engine for a newer v6 transplant. But that would use up the 11,000$ . What’s that third choice again?
I would think the answer depends on whether you want to get into her pants or not.
I think the logical answer for this is no. I am sorry, but a car like that should go to a collector. It shouldn’t be given to some random person who is going to use it as a daily driver. Besides, since she is not a car enthusiast, she will probably set it on fire after 6 months to collect the insurance on it because she is tired of having to choose between food or repairing her Citroen of which parts and mechanics are rare and expensive.
I don’t even know why this is even a question. It makes no sense whatsoever for a non-enthusiast to own an exotic Citroen and use it as a daily driver.
BTW, Mr. Lieberman, please watch the Top Gear cheap car challenge of which they buy 1970s supercars for 10,000 pounds or less. Then ask yourself again if you think one of these would make a good daily driver.
The SM is one of the coolest cars ever, so yes.
Haha what a terrible idea! Your friend who is not a car person would be stuck with a car that so few American mechanics have seen, much less worked on. To my mind, something requiring a lot of maintenence would be OK for a not-car-person if it was a common car… but this is pushing it too far!
I am no Citroen enthusiast and am rather ignorant of the mechanics of the brand, so I must ask what besides the brakes are hydraulic on the car in question? Why is it a selling point that they work? Would you buy one if they didn’t work?
As a second car? In a heartbeat.
As a daily driver… well … NO.
–chuck
What could possibly go wrong?
You know what old cars do? They let you down.
You know what an SM does? It bankrupts you in the process of letting you down all the time.
I’m with Runfromcheney: for a non-enthusiast to own a SM makes no sense whatsoever. Tell your friend to live with a few DS’s, or maybe with a CX: both are fantastically stylish cars that offer a unique driving experience, and when I say that I don’t mean they explode when you shift gears. But getting an SM to start with is insane.
If something that old and quirky would even remotely suit her needs, and if she can drive a stick, then I’d be more inclined to get a well-maintained 2002. Properly maintained, it will actually hold its value and should be reliable enough.
For something a bit more cush, a W124 or W210 model E-class might do the trick. Not perfect choices, and the diehards will prefer the older W124’s, but a well maintained one might be worth a look.
Jonny, new plan. Have her buy the SM and trade it to you for your Subaru. Both problems solved.
Try to remember you’re trying to take care of your friend here. This isn’t supposed to be about you. Forget what you think is cool and identify what she needs, and fill that need with the best car for the job.
If she’s a “you’re-not-a-car-person” then the Honda Fit/Mazda 3/Subaru Impreza is a perfect choice that would make anyone happy, and 5 years from now you’ll still be friends.
Hmmm ,,,
A 30+ year old French car. An SM.
Sounds like automotive SadoMasochism to me!
Jonny here’s how it works…
Dear friend -> Advised to buy Citroen SM -> (shortly thereafter) Mortal enemy
Only if you want her to hate you in 6 months when she gets the first repair bill.
That’s only if it sits in a garage for 5 months, 29 days.
This is a car properly owned by a Citroen fanatic, i.e., a masochist.
No – unless she likes getting rides often from friends to socialize and have a great talking point of pictures of the Citroen when they are giving her rides to work b/c it’s broke all the time.
Funny, I wast just perusing Citroens on eBay and one seller of a DS in “excellent mechanical condition” ended his description perfectly:
Car is sold as is where is . this is a 35 year old unrestored French car, please be reasonable in your expectations.
I think that answers your question.
I know you say she can afford this, but keep in mind that is your assessment BEFORE she buys this ride. Have you ever seen a picture of the engine bay on this thing?
A better question is this: Will she be happy eating ramen noodles and driving rental Aveos for the rest of her life while her mechanics put their kids through Harvard?
Non car people don’t generally like taking their cars in once a month for service. What about a Mini? Or a Volvo C30?
N85523, the following things are hydraulic on the SM: brakes, steering assist (one turn lock-to-lock, variable), suspension. The suspension has air-over-fluid accumulators, one per corner, which act as the springs. The hydraulic system is the glory of the car, and it is misunderstood by just about everyone save a Cit owner or Case-New Holland mechanic.
On an SM, or a Maserati Merak, you should verify that the splined clamps that hold the cam sprockets to the cams have been reworked such that they’re pinned through. Those splines had a funny way of slipping.
This isn’t a car for anyone but a gearhead.
I’m going to have to say no. This would be like telling someone who wants a nice, quiet, reliable full sized sedan just for going to and from work to go buy an E39 M5…
Purchasing an 1972 Citoren SM; An act so filled with both romance and tragedy. Like a traveling performance of Romeo and Juliet on wheels (or more likely sitting around waiting for more parts to come in.)
You think she shouldn’t buy a used German car because of reliability issues, but then you go and show her a 35-year old French car with an Italian powerplant?
Chrysler Crossfire.
Sexy, German, Affordable– it’s a nice little thing with the oxblood interior option.
Sounds like YOU want a SM.BUY it for you.Every day drivers need to be rental car types.If you do not want to develop a relationship for life PAY so little you can simplyIf the Sm is in her life make sure all the money is yours.ALL!.
When this thing has drained her of so many francs that Freedom fries are all she can afford to eat, then you’ll know for sure that it was a bad idea.
Would VW W8 fit in that thing? That could be fun.
No way.
What is wrong about buying a used VW, Audi or BMW? My 82 Polo went on for 16 years, 230.000 km. My Golf now at 130.000 km. And so on. Reliable, good value for Money.
The picture looks like the car lives in an aircraft hangar. Does your friend have an aircraft hangar ? Actually, on the question of reliability, how much of the problems with German cars is just coachwork ?
If someone can do the window regulators, washer tank failures, corroded connector pins etc. etc. then your friend will have fun and not be totally stranded.
Wow, that’s a really horrible idea. I like it.
andyinsdca: “What could possibly go wrong?”
That’s what I’m saying
Horrible, simply horrible.
I think that you are trying to live vicariously through her. You want this car; therefore, you are trying to justify its purchase for her. Besides the fact that she isn’t a “car guy”, it would take a very special kind of car guy to maintain this car.
If you want something different, a thinking-outside-the-box type of car, a classic American car would make much more sense. If nothing else, at least replacement parts would be readily available, and there are still older mechanics who know how to work on carbureted engines, older suspensions, etc. I bet you can get a daily driver quality (not car show, award winning, perfect) Mustang coupe with a 289 or 302 for around $10k to $12k. That should leave plenty of money for tune-ups and the small niggling repairs that these cars need now and then. I’ve also seen nicely modified 50’s Chevy trucks for under $12k, with disc brakes and the typical 350 with auto transmission and Mustang II front end set up. Depending on taste, I know that there are many more low cost, low repair bill American cars out there that will get your friend noticed.
Some very funny responses, and one great idea. Crossfire is quirky and not too miserable prolly at the 10-13k price point. I was going to suggest TSX.
Jonny, I think you need to check your exhaust for CO leaks.
A French car with a hydraulic suspension system and an Italian motor to use as a daily driver in the United States?
Seriously, consider a second hand Mazda Miata / MX5 instead.
This just reminded me of how ugly Citroens can get.
Does the SM stand for Sadism/Masochism?
You’re afraid of a 50k+ mile BMW but not this death trap?
Right.
I would strongly recommend against her bidding on this car. You’d have to be crazy to own one of these.
Plus, I don’t need any more competition in the auction.
A French car with and Italian powerplant, A MASERATI engine at that. Wouldn’t it be easier to just give her a gun to kill herself, might as well suggest a Biturbo since she’s not going to be a friend of yours after this. The BMW’s would have to be a cheaper option, weren’t 90’s 5-series very reliable cars, and you can find many nondealer BMW mechanics.
My sugestion if she really wants something different that she can enjoy putting money into, a mid 80’s Alfa GTV6. Fun, unique, quirky, unsusal mechanics, 50-50 weight distribution, CHEAPER, and their are plenty of mechanics in CA that should be able to work on it, for a pretty penny but at least they exist. Better yet just suggest a Mercedes, Alfa’s are better for people who like to work on their own cars.
NoSubstitute: I like you.
This car looks like merde.
An SM isn’t for novices. I’m with Redbarchetta: might as well get her into a Biturbo and call it a friendship.
How about importing a late 80s Citroen 2CV? Old and quirky but simple. She can import one for 2-3,000 Euro and with the help of Ebay, make any repairs herself. Just tell her to avoid inclines.
Ahhh!
If she likes the shape (ha! ha!) find her an SVX: easier to fix, less fussy to live with.
I’m off to eBay to track this myself. Maybe I could truck it to RI.
OK. I’m back. Wow! She is one beautiful machine. Had I the place to put it…
Growing up in the seventies my parents bought a used 1972 SM in 1974 as an everyday driver, and that was when there was actually a Citroen dealer/mechanic within 30 miles of our house. While it was an amazing car when everything worked I don’t think it ever went more than three weeks without needing to go in for more repairs. A 36 year old Citroen going to a non-car person sounds like the perfect way to create another car hating public transportation nazi, like we need anymore of them.
chuckgoolsbee :
August 18th, 2008 at 5:27 pm
As a second car? In a heartbeat.
As a daily driver… well … NO.
–chuck.
A week or so ago Chuck & I communicated about this topic. I wanted either a Rover TC 2000, BMW 3.0CS or Alfa GTV 67-73. I wanted a daily driver. Chuck took me back to earth. So I’ll be using my 06 MX 5 as my driver. My family had the above cars so I know what a pain they were but I also know when running right they were a delight. And Italian & French car seems like a full time job. There was an article in Men’s Vogue this month. a guy had to have a 64 jag MkII and his relationship with his mechanic. As long as you know it can very well strand you go for it.
Back in the 60s and 70s my family owned a number of French cars (my first car was a Peugeot). One day we drove past the local Cadillac dealer and there sitting among the trade-ins in the front row was two year old SM. We stopped and went for a test drive. Fabulous! It’s a good thing my father was not an impulse buyer.
We already knew that the SM was more complex than his DS, and in asking around found that it had quickly gained a reputation for expensive parts and frequent repairs. That’s probably why it had been traded in. He didn’t but it.
If that was the case then, imagine what it’s like now.
This is a car that should only be owned by an wealthy enthusiast who doesn’t depend on it to get to work.
Why not suggest a 1980s Cadillac with the L62 V8-6-4 engine, or better yet one with the LF9 diesel motor. Anyway you slice it, like the SM, two other examples of technology not then ready for prime time. All guaranteed to loose a friend and your credibility.
Anyone else wondering if Jonny’s eBay User ID is fb5207?
I’ve lusted after SMs since they were new, and very nearly bought one to add to my small just-for-fun-cars garage, but even I wouldn’t choose one as a daily driver. No car of that age is going to be trouble free in daily use, and the SM is a complex beast with partly Italian parentage.
I know a young guy who just bought a very nice 1977 Mercury Comet as his daily driver … at least those are simple vehicles with plentiful parts supplies.
An SM, on the other hand, has neither advantage :(.
Friends don’t let friends buy French cars.
There are some Italian cars that are so beautiful that they are worth the trouble, but very few french ones.
I agree with the consensus — no way should she even consider this car, even if it was MT’s Car of the Year in 1972.
The case for this car is a slam dunk. She will be greeted as a liberator (for the previous owner). If she doesn’t buy this car, the terrorists will have won.
It bears repeating; “What could go wrong?”
What about the Nissan Versa? It kept a bit of the quirky French styling of the Mégane without being too strange. It’s modern, reliable, safe, and would be perfect for someone who isn’t a car person.
You on the other hand are in love with the 1972 Citoren SM, in fact, well, I’ll save you the tired line from Pee-wee Herman. The point is, you want the car, and you want to keep your friend. Why not have both?
USAFMech makes me wonder: WWJK do?
I mean, the SM is mostly French (in a good sort of way).
What WOULD John Kerry do here?
The two happiest days of an SM owner’s life are the day he buys the car; and the day he sells it.
Hank :
Would VW W8 fit in that thing? That could be fun.
Nah, if you are going to engine swap go for a small block chevy, the alpha and omega of engine swaps.
You’re telling the girl to buy a 30 year-old French car with an Italian engine?
Dear God, and you call yourself her friend?
You won’t be after she comes out one morning and finds it stuck to the earth in a puddle of hydraulic suspension fluid.
Or you may stay in her good graces until she tries to get some engine part as simple as a distributor cap.
Our next door neighbor had a Citroen back in the 60’s, in the days when they actually had dealerships here. I was just a kid but I remember that car. It was wonderfully cool, and I loved the mechanic who used to fly up from Atlanta to fix it every time something went wrong. I got to know him real well.
I hope she lives near good public transportation.
How about importing a late 80s Citroen 2CV? Old and quirky but simple. She can import one for 2-3,000 Euro and with the help of Ebay, make any repairs herself. Just tell her to avoid inclines.
That will even work out to your advantage & u probably no need to work hard at all to be into her pants.
Reason is simple, enviro/political correct, sips almost no fuel, she gets compliments wherever she goes, cuter than a Smart car, simple to fix.
Any Citroen with Hydropneumatic suspension can be a garage queen, flat deck paegant most of the time.
One time I was looking at a DS, the parts are as rare as Hens’ teeth.
There’s a local Citroen repair shop here in Vancouver, they had been around since the Packard days. The DS was very technological advanced 53 yrs ago, even 53 yrs later the car still doesnt look too outdated at all.
When the engine doesnt run dont expect to tow it wth a tow rope, reason they use engine to drive the hydraulic pump unless braking is not required.
We moved a dead RR Silver Shadow and the brake is the same no dice , it was built under lic from Citroen.
To borrow from the great Jeremy Clarkson…when the French and Italians get together to make cheese it is a great thing; When get to together to make cars, run for you life.
She should absolutely buy it. We all need so event in our past to be used as a reference of the dumbest thing we ever did. I have several dumb idea situations in my past and I waste valuable time considering whether my latest faux pas was as bad as this one or that one. Buying this Citroen would give her a rock solid reference as the quintessential dumb idea and in the future any mistake could be reasonably compared and dismissed as it isn’t as bad as that Citroen.
I fixed French cars for a living 30+ years ago. Someone wantedto know what could go wrong? Let me list the ways..
1. The plastic shift lever breaks off on the first cold day.
2. That assumes the engine starts on the first cold day. 3 Webers, no choke, etc.
3. The timing chain jumps and ruins the engine (valves hitting the pistons, etc.) the first time the AC is used. Compressor runs off the primary timing chain.
4. The rubber hoses, with NO hose clamps, separate from a fitting, leaving the car flat, with no steering or brakes. And, so close to the ground that a tow truck can’t pick it up.
5. The dashboard catches on fire due to one faulty electrical component or another.
6.The self centering steering decides it will self center despite what the driver wants to do. Usually as a result of the previous hose falling off scenario.
7. Various trim bits fly off at highway speeds. You haven’t lived till you experience a windshield moulding leaving the car at speed.
8. The transmission refuses to transmit.Intermittently.
9. The turning headlights turn and refuse to straighten out.
10. The electric windows fail, usually in the UP position, just after the AC fails on the hottest day of the year. Atleast they provide a crank for manual operation of the power windows. Make sure it is included with the car.
I could go on.
At one point I swapped a Ford 2.8L V6 into one of these. Never again. Citroen makes their engines run backwards from everyone else, for starters.
I love the French. I love to go to France, eat the food, drive on the roads, visit the castles, and so on. But buy their cars? You must be kidding.
Bob
Hmmm seems like this woman did something to really upset you. Otherwise why would you suggest that she get one of the least reliable brands ever built. Good way to make sure she will never forgive you for this decision. Oh well, there are other women out there. And thankfully not many Citroen SM’s.
A Citroen SM for this girl? No. Absolutely not.
What I am about to say is in NO WAY intended as a slight or insult to her or to women in general. But this is something that we men MUST understand about the women we care about, whether they are “just friends” or “something more.”
If she’s a typical lady, she should probably drive something trouble-free, as well as easy and economical to fix. In other words, a decent Honda or Toyota. Avoid any Detroit metal until we know who’s going to survive bankruptcy and be around for the long haul.
Now there are some ladies who’re willing to put up with automotive idiosyncracies and the increased repair cost of esoteric vehicles. But these “car gals” are the exception and not the rule.
It would be selfish on your part to push the SM to her if she is not one of these unique “pistonettes” to begin with.
From what I remember about these cars it sounds more like Russian roulette with a fully loaded revolver.
Much as I love Citroens as a car guy (and have always wanted a DS – alas never got one despite living in the UK for 9 years), I’d say RUN AWAY! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
$20,000? She’s a friend? Wants something a little bit classy looking and she is not a car-gal?
Think outside the box. A brand new Hyundai Sonata GLS in black (or whatever color she likes – there’d be a choice!) with four cylinder. 0-60 in about 8.5 seconds, almost 130 mph top speed, a long warrantee, classy looks, good build quality, dealer support, reliability, a quiet ride. It can even be had in 5 speed manual or 5 speed automatic at her choice.
If she really wants a two door, there are leftover 2008 Hyundai Tiburons going on sale right now – literally. My pal’s wife has one – with the little 2.7 V6, it sings like an Alfa Romeo, and it’s a sweet little car. Figure on having $2000-3000 left over out of $20,000.
Why on earth buy used stuff? Certainly NOT 30 year old exotica!!!!!!!
Leave that to gearheads and Citroenistas who would have the patience and deep pockets.
It is probably up there somewhere, but, for what it’s worth, I always figured that when I moved back to SoCal, I would be looking for an Alfa Convertible or an E-Type with a drop head.
Old and dependable is spelled only one way:
P-O-R-S-C-H-E
How ’bout an ’84-’86 3.2 911?
Electronic fuel injection, galvanized body, easy to find parts, lots of people to fix car.
Less than $20K for nice examples. Lots of fun. Won’t lose much value. Can be driven daily (my wife does).
For a moment there, I thought I had somehow been misdirected to Jalopnik…
When people ask me what car to get, I ask them what they want out of a car. If she hasn’t said anything to indicate that she might be interested in such a car, I don’t think so. And if she has, she needs to balance the other attributes she wants in a car against the amount of reliability she wants. My guess is that 999,999/1,000,000 would not choose the Citroen. Chances are, she’s in the majority. (and I like the Citroen.)
If your friend is looking for a classic that’s going to run as smooth as a Camry, then this is not a good idea.
If the friend has a passion for Citroen and its quirky-chic ways and is fully aware of the maintenance costs it may incur, then ignore all of the US market cars and try to find a Europe-imported model. The NHTSA of the ’70s sucked some of the revolutionary features of the SM out, like the swiveling headlamps which were replaced with four stationary (and ugly) headlamps. The 5-MPH federally-mandated bumpers (also ugly) were also added on to the US market SM.
Doit.
Do it.